Could the nodachi be effective in battle?

[Skomatth]

Point: I assume that soldiers cluster together for protection in battle. Since they do could the nodachi, a primarily cutting weapon, be used in battle in a massed formation, or was its use as a secondary weapon only used if your primary one broke.

Counterpoint: As far as I know (was looking into doing kendo for a while) nodachi cuts originate from above the head, reducing the room needed to cut. Romans also used a space of three feet I believe, if the japanese had something similar it would be enough room to chop. Furthermore, the troops wielding them were probably elite and didn't need to huddle together.

[Muneyoshi]

No-Dachi a secondary weapon, thats a good one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif A no-dachi was about 3-3 1/2 feet long, wasnt exactly a light weapon and had to be used using two hands.

And three feet would hardly be enough to fight as you'd be cutting your m8s. Also, very little (if any) armor was worn, so they had full range of movement and could attack better, this obviously would cause problems from arrows and bullets and the preferred formation would of been a loosely based on so their was less chance of getting hit.

[Hakonarson]

The No-dachi is completely outclassed in battle by the new generation of infantry weapons, and its lack of AT capability is a major shortcoming these days.

Mind you it WAS quite effective a few hundred years ago.

[econ21]

I find it hard to envisage a unit of no-dachi doing well against a determined unit of spearmen. One on one, the no-dachi could be formiddable, but in close formation I think they would be at a disadvantage. The preponderance of spear based units in history and the relative scarcity of those with great weapons would seem to support this.

[Muneyoshi]

Hak, LOL, he didnt mean modern day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

And Simon, you'd be an absolute fool to send a unit with no armor or shield, and a large rather slow sword into battle against a spear with a man using it that is well trained.

[Skomatth]

Well I meant in feudal japan not now of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Anyways weren't polearms with blades attached favored by samuri, if so why would that be more effective than nodachi and if they were wouldnt nodachi be too?

[Hakonarson]

Oh gosh - was he really meaning in Medieval Japan? Heck - and here was me thinking that the question was forward looking............so you think he really meant "WAS the no-dachi effective in battle?"?

[Skomatth]

*confused* stupid

[Muneyoshi]

No worries Sko, he just misunderstood, thats all

[Hakonarson]

No he didn't - he was just making an obtuse comment about the wording of the question......so obtuse no-one appreciated it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Muneyoshi]

Ah well seeing as how No-Dachis arent used in battle and havent been for quite sometime, you have to use some common sense m8 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Ithaskar Fëarindel]

I too would have thought No-Dachi would beat spears, but I see your point Simon/Muney. Would the same be true for the Naginata?

[Muneyoshi]

Nagi's were actually well armoured. It was sort of like that of a Knights (very little areas where they could be effectively hit and do any damage) and they also had a spear of their own in sense, so they would generally destroy the less armoured and less equiped samurai (and they didnt have to worry about archers as much like a no-dachi) Though they were rather slow, they should of been able to beat samurai with relative ease

[econ21]

I guess Naginata's are not a million miles away from halberds and other polearms? From what I've read, the halberd seemed to be very popular and effective in later medieval warfare, especially against heavily armoured foes. Most of the many skeletons excavated a climatic battle of the War of the Roses apparently had severe crushing headwounds, probably from polearms. With the advent of plate, the development of Western foot soliders without ranged weapons seems to have branched out into either pikemen or halbardiers.

[Muneyoshi]

Which werent in Japan though I might add http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Shahed]

Sko Kendo is one of my favorite martial arts.
We have a club here in Luxembourg, where I have been training for past 2 years. Bit far from You though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Shobukai Kendo Luxembourg (http://www.shobukai.lu)

Ken Zen Itchi

[Brutal DLX]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I feel for Hakonarson.
The No Dachi was effective, or else it wouldn't have existed in Japanese armies for quite some time. It is all a matter of how you employ the No-Dachi troops under your command. Letting them run straight into a Naginata unit is not a good idea.

[econ21]

Brutal_DLX, I'm not sure how common no-dachi units were in armies. I was looking at Terry Gore's latest army lists for his minature rules, Medieval Warfare, and was surprised to see he lists almost all samuarai as armed with bow and sword (presumably katana, but modelled in game as like a two-handed sword). Lower status soldiers had naginatas or yaris. Similarly in Medieval Europe, I can't find reference to many units with two-handed swords - at the moment, just "Swabian swordsmen" although I don't know much about them. (I know there were Landsnecht (sp?) units with "H swords in the Renaissance period a little later). I've read it suggested that be no-dachi and other weapons partly had a status value and were prized for things other than there effectiveness in mass close order combat.

[Brutal DLX]

Simon, maybe they were not THAT commonplace, but I'm pretty sure wealthy daimyos employed them. Their equipment other than the sword wasn't expensive, so the only other limiting factor would be the amount of training needed to become an effective NoDachi fighter.
Every katana was a status symbol in Feudal Japan, but you could be right in that the units themselves had perhaps a standing like the Varangian Guard (effective, but becoming more and more ceremonial later on).
This is, however, distracting from the original question of whether or not NoDachis are effective on the battlefield, which I believe they were.

Landsknechte usually are depicted wielding polearm weapons, but two handed swords were often given to frontline fighters who would try to cut the enemies' spears and body's in a half http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif to disrupt their formation as well as make room for their own onrushing troops equipped with pikes or spears or other such similar weaponry.

[Skomatth]

Well how would a commander deploy them?

[Brutal DLX]

Apparently in similar fashion we do in Shogun. Doesn't make much sense to employ them in any other way, unless you want to do the Banzaiii frontal charge right into the Naginatas.

[Rob The Bastard]

They would be quite useful as hard hitting, swift moving flankers... or for running down foot soldiers that were routing ( assuming you didn't have yari cavalry... )

[AggonyShim2]

Muneyoshi i always heard that a Nodachi could reach lengths of 4 to 5 feet. thus needing great skill to use it effectively... either way i would hate to be the one on the other end. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Muneyoshi]

Right you are on the size Shim (Stupid me) and as you said, id be scared out of my mind if I saw someone coming toawrds me with one, no matter the size

[Michael the Great]

And it would of prabably been AP ,no?

[Muneyoshi]

AP? Armor Piercing? Not too sure about that one, as it would be more of an armour cutting then piercing. Piercing would be a stab, while nodchi was more of a cut from above the head, and towards the neck area

[Brutal DLX]

To say it with Krast: no good for armour, good for cutting heads off Gah