Kataphraktoi [Archive]

kataphraktoi

03-21-2003, 05:39

What units do you have on your mind???

U realise that if u make new units from scratch u can't play your old savegames except for your latest savegame with the new units.

Modding existing units will change your some of your replays units.

I have some thoughts perhaops u can expand on them?
Pharganoi tagmata, elite infantry
Banu Habib fast light footed skirmishers
Khurramites medium infantry like a Turcoman footsoldier

I reckon we should give the Byz the abiltiy to train vikings but only in the areas where they can be found.

Any chance of bulking up the Byz fleet? The Byz fleet had a capital fleet, they had exclusive naval bases in the Carabisian theme where southern coast of Nicaea is in MTW. often they were split between Black Sea and Aegean duties.

In my mod I gave bonuses for fleets made in Crete, Cyprus and Rhodes

Have you thought of increasing trade? Adding tradeable goods to more regions, the AI seems to bankrupt itself, some more tradable goods would stimulate their economies, also I added more resources in certain regions.

Klibanophori don;t appear in this period till Nicephorus or John Curcuas's time so I guess they don;t appear in the early Islamic period

kataphraktoi

03-21-2003, 05:42

Galestrum

03-21-2003, 05:51

In my alexsius mod, i have already beefed up trade items throughout the map, nearly every coastal province has at least (1) trade item, most have several - which i based off of lots of research.

As far as units - well i dont every unit we would need for either period, but i had a few ideas.

tagmata forces
some forms of slavic infantry
theme infantry, archers and cavalry
various armenian, georgian, & other auxillery/ally troops
rus warrios (vikings)
khazars
pecenegs
various bulgarian units
germanic tribal units (for visigothic spain, the franks, and lombards)
some islamic units

any input by you would be great too, i admit i dont know everything about the military forces of this time - my expertise tends to be more in the socio-politico sphere of history - and to be honest military "units" for this time is generally sketchy at best.

Im pretty sure that most early era units are applicable to at least the 863 era - afterall chainmail is chainmail, only difference is regional units and peoples.

and yeah in my mod, Byz can train viking in the Rus lands, crimea and const.

Galestrum

03-21-2003, 05:53

additionally with VI, we may hopefully be able to add some of the units found therein, into MTW, that would help out with new units too.

As far as old save games, once i get all the units i desire and all the mods im workin on, ill never play another mod, or the orig mtw anyways http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif so it wont matter to me hehe

kataphraktoi

03-21-2003, 06:06

I'm looking forward to making Tagmata units myself,

hey Galestrum should we make the Tagmata units unique units that can only be trained and produced in Constantinople????
Since the Tagmata was the only full time professional mobile force around compared to the soldier farmers of Anatolia who were part timers rather than full time professionals.
This would add a challenge in that an Emperor has to make the choice of whether he should send his Tagmata to the East of the West or divide his Tagmata halving its full effectiveness as a complete force?
I know there were several Tagmata groups perhaps we can make certain tagmata groups into specific unit groups??

eg, Scholae are heavy infantry only
Heteira are heavy cavalry only
Numeri are axe beaers eetc, etc only

takes some real micromanagement.

When ur ready to start send me the startpos mod so I orientatte myself and familiarise myself with the period, send me some historical notes if you think certain aspects of certain units should be emphasised ok???

Galestrum

03-21-2003, 06:42

this is a great idea Kata, in my Alexius Mod i changed production dramatically

The idea of many unique troops tied to geographical regions is very important and realistic. Amenians, anatolians, balkans etc should all have their strengths and weaknesses, and raised/produced in their homelands.

The tagmata units should for the most part limited to Const, basic theme units anywhere, armenians to armenia etc etc etc

Basic frontline Imperial units should be produced anywhere that has a castle7 and a royal palace (this would imitate the large cities/administrative centers) that could produce units like Byz Inf but not the elite tagmata etc

I should be done readin on Byz 863-to Basil by tommorrow, then ill send you a basic overview, also whats your email?

mine is galestrum@cfl.rr.com

email you soon

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

kataphraktoi

03-21-2003, 13:03

fuzzwuzznuzz@hotmail.com

Yeah i agree reconstructing the administrative system fo the EMpire is important. Tagmata here we come, I hope the other fellas are keeping up with our developments.

How are the titles of the governors coming up?
Are they still governors or are they :
Strategos
Clissurachs
Dukes

I love how Byzantium has so many titles that are either practical or useless but have cool long names like Spathocandidaturoi
or Sebastocrator

Galestrum

03-21-2003, 17:21

Hey Kata,

so far this is what i have gotten done. My info comes from (2) books The Late Byzantine Army by Bartusis, which covers the Byzantine Army after 1204, obviously im only takin info from here which relates prior 1204 info.

My primary source is The Making Of Byzantium by Whittow which covers 600-1025 AD.

Basically we have a few issues and approaches we can take. According to him, the "theme armies" orginnated in the early 720s for a firm date - some say earlier others later, but around this time, there is firm evidence for what people deemed the theme armies.

He said that all we know about them infantry "was that they existed" and that all the info we have regards the thematic cavalry. He described theme cavalry as "shadowing" the ememy and doing hit and run raids - and if the invaders were not pushed back or left of their own accord - only then would there be a battle.

He says that the theme cavalry was heavily armoured and elite and well paid.

The Tagmata is what destroyed the Theme system, interestingly, both armies were based upon military philophies. The Theme armies were defensive in nature and tied to local areas and formed the core of the field armies.
The tagmata was centered on Constantinople and the Emperor and was offensive in nature.

The tagmata was described as elite, well paid and well trained, often many were foriegners (a trend which grew more and more) as these became more trusted by Emperors as oppossed to local troops.

The Tagmata can be seen as coming into its own between 930-950 AD. It appears that most of the elite Theme forces were slowly transferred into the Tagmata and as time went by, the Theme armies became very poor in military value, basically viewed as merely "militia forces", of little military use.

Other Byzantine units of import were the Armenians, Khazars, Rus, some black african units (similar to the negro spearmen from the sounds)among others.

Regarding the Tagmatic Armies, they were described as a mixture of Heavy and light spearmen, with heavy cavalry used to smash enemy infantry and cavalry formations and archers and slingers.

more to come

Galestrum

03-21-2003, 18:28

Kataphraktos were described as med cavalry armed with lance and bow

Kilanophorous as massively armored shock cavalry, mostly armed with lance, though 1/5 had a bow

Most Light cavalry came from mercs (pecenegs, turks, etc)

Theme Cavalry seemed to come in a heavy version armed with lance and a lighter version with bow and lance

Trapezti Cavalry was a light roman cavalry often armed with sword and spear along with javelins - some were mentioned to be horse archers

There were (4) tagmata regiments, scholae, excubiti, Arithmos(vigla) and Ikanatoi. Scholae being the best, Ikanatoi being the newest, and least seasoned. All were elite however.

Byzantine Skuatoi were described thus: armed with a heavy pike 12-14 feet in length, a short sword, wearing heavy armor like their cavalry counterparts. They were "skilled at handling cavalry assaults". They also hurled javelins, armed with 1-2 heavy javelins each.

As a general rule, all the front line Byzantine units were described as being highly disciplined.

Slavic Tribal forces were described as being fast and able to ambush effectively. They wore little to no armor, but had shields.

Hungarian Cavalry often had bow, sabre, and spear and axe, and were fast and adept at ambushes.

Arab forces seem similar to what we already have. There seemed to be a fanatical core around this time, similar to the ghazi infantry as well as something called the "Jund" cavalry. Along with the bedouin, and light and medium arab cavalry. They were noted as often imitating byzantine forces in type, but tended to be more numerous but less disciplined (as reflected in MTW to some extent).

Byzantine Light Infantry seems to be similar to the Trebizond Archers, lightly armored, armed with a bow and a battle axe.

The Bulgarians had a noble or elite cavalry and used slavic infantry and slavic skirmishers as infantry. whereas the bulgarians formed most of the horse archers and assault cavalry.

There are a few books made by the Osprey series which may be somewhat helpful but i dont have them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

thats about all the info i have access too. Perhaps we can make some of these unit types, and use some of those already created ib LKs expansion pack.

I know they have Bulgarian, magyar, avar, georgian cavalry. We could use some slavic infantry types to be made and some Rus warrior types, and perhaps Varangians, before they became the Varangian Guard.

Galestrum

03-21-2003, 18:48

potential factions for 863 era include :

1)Romans
2)Bulgarian
3)Khazars
4)Kievan Rus
5)Pope (minus crusades)
6)Arab Raidin Emirates of (Antioch, Edessa, Lesser Armenia, Armenia, Cyprus and Crete)
7)Abassid Caliphate (i think thats right) Based in Baghdad, in effect the Egyptian Faction
8) The Franks - France
9) HRE
10) Kingdom of Italy
11) Spanish (Austurias) - not exactly, but what would become the spanish
12) Burgundy
13) Danes
14) Great Moravia

its kinda hard to find alot of "factions' in this time period as most of europe still resembled a bunch of independent tribal groups - any idea from others would be cool. Basically for the period 863 on

If this is too hard, we could go to the time slightly before the accension of Basil II 976-1025, but of course wed lose that presents factional problems as well, for instance the Bulgars and Raiding emirates are already destroyed

Galestrum

03-21-2003, 19:49

regarding titles yeah there were many, and most were absolutely meaningless. I dont mind adding additional titles, however, i dont think we should add a bunch of meaningless titles, as they would be, well meaningless http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

If we do a theme era mod, the governors should be called stratgoi - otherwise, doux or duke is perfectly fine, although we may wanna do a lil research on specific provincial titles if we want to get crazy motivated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Galestrum

03-21-2003, 19:53

regarding the tagmata, is it possible to make their shilds have the byzantine symbol on it? i have noticed the skuatoi from LKs expansion have the flag symbol on the shields in certain maps.

It would be great for the tagmata to have that symbol for their battles.

Did you want to break down the tagmata by troop type or by division? from what i read the 4 divisions of the tagmata were merely broken down by experience and position not by weapon type or what not. If this was the case i suggest breaking the tagmata down by weapon type.

You seem to know alot about this, if you have any sources i could get a hold of id love to learn more - where is hera and elwe and the other history dorks? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

kataphraktoi

03-22-2003, 06:59

For the Tagmata we might need to force our own historical "correctness"

I think the Tagmata should be arranged by unit type to make it easier, and also I think we should identify the byzantine units that can only be produced for the Tagmata be restricting them to be produced at Constantinople or Nicaea or Anatolia.

We should set aside a Tagmata where it consists only of mercenaries hired from the Inn, this will cover the Pharganoi, the Ethopian unit, Khazars and other foreign units. (Varangian Guards are different from the Tagmata, they are a unit to themselves)

Tagmata units only not trained anywhere else:
Constantinople:
Klibanophori = Scholae?
Kataphraktoi = Excubiti?

Nicaea
Byzantine Cavalry = Ikanatoi?
Pronoia Allagion (don;t exist till the Comnenes so how bout we make them Latin knights in service of Byzantium given land?)

Anatolia:
Skutatoi infatry (front rank, heavy infantry, full time professionals) best place for these are the hardy, warlike and tough anatolians on the plateau where mountainous warfare is their bread and butter.

Mercenaries tagmata = Vigla?

Other untis are considered normal and can be produced anywhere else:
Byzantine infantry (part time soldier farmers)
Turcoman horseman (can be considered as Arabs who have settled under byzantine protection as is the case with Banu Habib and the Khurramites)
Armenian Heavy Cavalry (25% of Byzantine army was at least of this ethnic stock, should be restricted to Armenia, Rum and Trebizond where Armenians are concentrated, i don;t believe they should trained by Islamic factions, exception is the Egyptians)
Trebizond Archers as light infantry (restrict them to Trebizond only???)

By putting restrictions we identify provincial soldiers over the Tagmata who are professional soldiers.

i have done some tweaking with the Byz cav forces namely the ByCav, Kata and Klib excludes Pronoia. Here are the Tagmatic cavalry forces

Byzantine Cavalry serve the role of Kataphraktois which is what they are historically, they are armed with a lance, bow and a sword, lance for charging, bow for skirmishing and a sword for the melee. This is the essential heavy cavalryman in the Byzantine army.

Kataphraktois replaced by Byzantine cavalry but represented the next level higher than the Byzantine cavalry, they are highly paid and are trained in Constantinople only as the heavy cavalry corps.

Klibanophori is the elite of the Tagmata corps (by the time it takes to train one we are well into the age of John Curcuas or Nicephorus Phocas whom this unit appears)
Trained by the central government and equipped by the central government they are expensive and small in number but superbly disciplined and trained to deliver the knockout blow in battle. Armed with a lance and mace, mace is preferred weapon of the Klibanophori for their shcok value.

There are four main Tagmatas but the inclusion of a separate Varangian unit makes it 5 essential Tagmatic forces.

Tagmatic forces are often mounted rather than foot infantry, foot infantry are often the capital garrison rather than field service.

The mobility and as you said offensive nature favours a cavalry mounted force, with the Byz cav, Kata and the Klib you have ur elite Tagmatic force.
They are delibrately expensive since the Byzantine were the most well paid of all armies. Restricting where they can trained only adds to their elite status.

I like a new title to be made called "Warrior Saint", a canonisation of an individual for outstandinf achievements in the field of religion and warfare. Living Saints were common as were dead military saints. I tried it once and inspired holy fear in the enemy. No joke.

Strategos for the large Asia Mnor themes (Nicaea, Anatolia and trebizond)

Ducates for frontier provinces like Rum, Antioch or Edessa or even Armenia

Catapan for Italian provinces

Strategos for European provinces

Ducates for the Aegean Islands

What do you think???

Gee where are Herac and Elwe when u need them?

kataphraktoi

03-22-2003, 07:15

Here are my thoughts on factions and their provinces

Kievan Rus (people of novgorod) Kiev
Bulgars (Polish) Bulgaria, Wallachia
Ommayad Emirate (Almohads) Cordoba, Castile, Granada and Morocco
Tulunids (Egyptians, autonomous from the Abbasid, the Abbasids are decentralising at this point so some semi-independent Arab foes might be good for generating warfare)
Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Jerusalem,
Eastern Franks (no HRE yet at this time) all german territories exluding bohemia, brandenburg.
Franks (french) All french territories except brittany but including Aragon province.
Asturias (Spanish) Leon only
Navarrese (Aragon)
Pope Rome only
Kingdom of Italy (Italians) Genoa, Milan, Tuscany, Papal States, Venice.
Magyars (Hungarians) Hungary Carpathia
Khazars (Turks) Khazar

Independent states:
Corsica
Sardinia

Arab Emirates:
Melitene (lesser armenia)
Armenia (armenia)
Crete (use the sicilians as the Cretan factions, if u do;t know how to transform factions I will do it)
Arabia (strongly independent)

Surrounding kingdoms
Iberia (georgia)

Neutral condominum between Abassids and Byzantines:
Cyprus

Galestrum

03-22-2003, 07:21

Kata i emailed you, your units looked good

Yeah, basically i am in agrreance with most of what you said, we will tie all the elite units to constantinople, and the "basic units" anywhere, and with regional troops tied to region.

So the next question is what unit(s) do we (meaning you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ) need to make and/or adjust?

I am planning on using LK's Menavatoi & Psiloi units, both were part of the Tagmata armies, psiloi representing the light javelin forces and Menavatoi an elite spear shock unit to counter Kata cavalry, as well as the standard byzantine units made by CA. You are already working on Klib & Skutatoi from what you emailed me.

Do we need additional muslim units for 863? I really think we need some slavic infantry, as well as maybe some Rus. I could use some of LKs other units to fill in the gaps.

The question is, how many, if any units do you feel like making? and secondly, which ones should we focus on?

I suggest we tie the "warrior saint" title to the reliquary or something? what should the title confer if anything?

your titles sound good, im gonna read a section o titles tonight, but what you stated sounds good to go.

Also, we may have more unit options with VI, looks like different unit looks may be available to us. This would be great to represent the western frank (barbarians).

kataphraktoi

03-22-2003, 07:25

My thoughts on troops

Polish retainers as Bulgarian boyars

I have made SLavic troops, use my croatian and serbian brigands they are both fast, aggressive armed with bows and an axe, croatians hide in open as ambush units.

Hungarians are mainly horse archers, should I make a new hungarian horse archer?
they have a bonus for horse archers trained in hungary.

leave the Arabs as they are but make give them higher valour, higher attack but poor defence, they need to be more fanatical than professionally disciplined. They are fast on foot since they are unencumbered with armour

any thoughts on treasury, to reflect each factions financial strenght I customised each factions treasury.
eg. Arabs tend to be more wealthy than Western factions.

Can I make changes to Islamic cavalry, since archery is dominant in Islamic warfare giving the Khwarazmian cavalry bows would give us challenging enemies. I am thinking of adding bows to other cavalry units in the Islamic line up except for the Almohads.

Western factions to recieve a boost in defence to balance increased Islamic attack and the Byzantines higher valour for their discipline. everyone takes that for granted.

So a few generalisations;

Western factions
higher defense
Islamic factions
higher attack and fanaticsm
byzantine
higher production cost
higher valour

Galestrum

03-22-2003, 07:41

yeah regarding your differences sounds good - i have already modded my units stats similar to what you have stated (my muslim forces attack is beefed up, etc)

ok regarding new units then, might i suggest the following:

1) a slavic infantry - no or light armor, javelins for ranged attack, and spears for melee, fast, good charge and attack, but no defense armor, and poor morale - maybe let these hide like the croat and serb units you have made.

2) a Hungarian Horse archer, with chain mail, bow and sabre/spear would be great if you could do that?

3) could you make an early Varangian Unit? these would represent the early Rus warrios used by the empire, but before they were "decked out" with the great armor and stats of the Varabgian guard, these coupled with normal vikings would represent the viking forces commonly serving the empire?

what about some basic Frankish troops for the east & west franks and kingdom of italy? or should we just use the generic fuedal units already available? or maybe we wait on these and adapt some VI units?

also, have you seen LK's menavatoi unit? could you do something like that or mod it? it would really be nice to give the Menavlatoi a heavy javelin like they did in life?

I dont know how much work is involved in making or modding existing units, so i dont wanna bog you down with alot of work - so tell me to shout up when you have heard enuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Galestrum

03-22-2003, 07:42

For the Bulgarians and Hungarians I can use the Polish retainers, boyars, and lith cavalry - i can use most of the turk stuff for the Khazars

Galestrum

03-22-2003, 07:52

do you have MSN? perhaps we could get together and talk out some ideas and maybe if we can find the other 2 grecophiles we could form a big ole chat sometime?

kataphraktoi

03-22-2003, 08:22

yeah I got msn fuzzwuzznuzz@hotmail.com is the path to wisdom

herac and elwe get in here so we can get ur input.

kataphraktoi

03-22-2003, 17:10

Yo Galestrum have we agreed on the factions involved?????

I have compiled a list of units involved in this mod
If you adding more or are suggesting another tweak then copy and paste the existing list and write in the new entries as well as adding (proposed unit) beside it.

legend D = done I = in the making

Units tweaked :
Kataphraktoi (added bow) D
Khwarazmian Cavalry (added bow and axe) D
Byzantine Cavalry (added lance) D
Polish Retainer now a Bulgar Boyar D

New units made from scratch:
Klibanophori D
Magyar Horse Archers I
Slav light skirmishers I
Croatian Brigands D
Skutatoi D
Norman knight (proposed) no status
Arab corsair (proposed) no status

Units added to the Byzantines:
Turcoman Horsemen
Armenian Heavy Cavalry
Vikings

Units available
Urban Militia
Byzantine Infantry
Alan mercenary
Horse Archers
Spearmen
Naptha Throwers

Now we can keep up to date with unit changes, proposals etc.

I prefer the Vikings as the pre - Varangian Guards, Varangians did not appear till Basil's time, the Vikigns are perfect candidates of Rus mercenaries. Rus Vikings also were a product of mixed Slav and Rus descent so we can make a case that Vikings can represent both Slav and Rus peoples.

I think the West has too many units already, as well their miliary systems were simple and uncomplicated.

Any chance of making the Danes a pagan and searaiding people, man if I was playing the Danes I would love allthose longships to raid Western Europe. bring on the blood.

However since they did have a troop that threw axes called franciscas, I dunno if they still had in the 800's.
the files don;t allow me to make axe throwing troops, the image of a unit can be changed but it takes yonks and believe me yonks

I am in favour of making a Norman knight however with superior valour comapred to early royal knights

What do you think of an Arab Corsair, basically a light Arab cavalry with a lance, bow and excellent attack.
nah better not, too many Arab lightweights already.
Good for mountainous regions where their excellent horsemanship helps them in such terrain.

I am thinking of making a set of Heretics for the agents list:

Shia Imam
Nestorian priest
Monophysites Priest
Paulicians

can be built by muslims and christians alike to forment religious division in enemies territories hehe, now we have more agents to play with.

gimme a screenie of a menavlotoi and I'll see what I conjure up.

Galestrum

03-22-2003, 20:00

Hey Kata, Ive already started workin on the startpos. Here are the factions that I have decided upon, after doing a ton of research, although im still looking at possibly changing the timeline slightly, which may affect the addition/subtraction of a faction here and there.

Romans
Ommayad
Danish
Kingdom of Italy
East Franks
West Franks
Tulumids
Kievan Rus
Khazars
Pope
Bulgarian Khanate
Austurias
Raiding Arab Emirates
Magyars
Duchy of Croatia
Kingdom of Great Moravia

Now there may be some possible changes, I was thiking of making a "spanish marcher lord faction" which would include Austurias, Navarre, and Aragon. I did some cursory research, and most of it pointed that at this time these lands were somewhat uder the lordship of the Franks, but distinct enough to be there own kind of thing. So i could make a "marcher lord" faction OR Make Austurias one faction and give Navarre and Aragon to the West Franks.

Also if i go a lil bit in future time, say to the 880s, I can make Burgundy a faction - consisting of Burgundy & Provence.

I have adjusted every faction listed to their appropriate culture already & most of the Pagan factions were given the barbarian raider AI behavior, so there should be lots of rampaging hordes hopefully http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I made a "generic" arab raiding emirate faction, for gameplay reasons, consisting of : Sicily, Crete, cyprus, armenia, lesser armenia, antioch, edessa, and parts of N Africa.

My reasoning for this faction, is that while they were all pretty much independent emirates, they had a similar goal, to raid and attack christian lands aggressively and were basically the front line of the war. Now if we had the ability to have more than 20 factions, Id have made more distinction, but being as i am limited, I have lumped them together. It does give the bonus of giving this faction some umph and should provide anyone taking them on some large degree of hardship http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

I think the Arab Corsair sounds cool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Regarding the Norman Knight, I gave Feudal Knights +1 valour in Normandy already in my mods

Are the Slav light skirmishers my idea of slavic infantry with spears and javelins?

I think the new agents sound good, i didnt know you could make new ones good deal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I think we should make some new Byzantine agent units that have some ability to help make up for the lack of jihad and crusade.

Galestrum

03-22-2003, 20:06

Also, with VI i get the feeling we will be able to create new untis not createable now, and can add some of the VI units to this mod.

Id like to bascially get the Beta of this done soon as we can, and then with LKs new units, your new units, and the possibility of VI, we can do a very good series of various Dark Ages campaigns http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Im also working on a crusader on updating the crusader11 file, as soon as you link me to your unit mods, and i can d/l them, ill update my crusader11 and then send it to you along with my other files and we can start testing it out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Galestrum

03-22-2003, 20:08

How do i make a screenie? hehe *blush*

when you tell me, ill take one, with some descriptions, and ill also take a screenie of the campaign screen for you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Heraclius

03-23-2003, 21:01

I am in utter awe of you two. Please keep working. So far what you have said seems to be very historically accurate and I don't feel I can legitimately challenge you on any one issue.

Elwe

03-23-2003, 22:35

I agree with Heraclius... your efforts have left me dumbfounded Unfortunately, I cannot add to the secifics of late Roman military units, as I am yet to find a book that gives any details of the exact compositions of their military makeup http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif. The books I've read so far only deal with the general history (Norwich) or the tactics used. Still searching for a good book on the actual make-up of their military.

Everything is looking awesome, though Keep up the good work, I can't wait to play

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

kataphraktoi

03-24-2003, 15:05

hey u guys want to be guinea pigs, i will release mods quite regularly for this campaign mod, send me ur e- mail and you'll get a nice surprise. no not the latest kataphraktoi virus but 3 new units, thats right 3 NEW untis.

Magyar Cavalry:
Magyar elite mounted unit armoured in mail, carries a lance, sword and bow, fast as well.

Though I got to warn you it has the same stats as the Boyar, i have not changed it yet, so I expect u guys to change it and see what u think are good stats for it ok????

Arab Corsair (Warband)
These fellas are exclusive to the Arab Emirates, basically they are lightly armoured raiders with only a sword and shield but have a ferocious attack, plus they are fanatical as well, any armoured troop can expect a real fight.

note: sword only appears when charging and fighting, we can pretend the corsair unsheaths his sword for the real fight http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Patriarch(demo)
It works, I made a new agent, the Patriarch has far ranging abilities to covnert people to orthodoxy and improve zeal for whatever benefit the Byzantines might gget from it....anyway the appearance of the Patriarch in the campaign map is only a beta, in the MTW files there are agents which haven;t been used, so I will use one of their appearances for the Patriarch.

Elwe

03-24-2003, 22:35

I've PM'd you, Kataphraktoi.. I'll be a guinea-pig http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Heraclius

03-25-2003, 00:05

I tried to PM you, kat, but it said that your messenger was full and unable to recieve new messages. I will periodically try to get it through though. Yes I would be willing to be your guinea pig although I do have one question I asked in the PM

Galestrum

03-25-2003, 02:22

*** UPDATE ***

Ok fellas, so far i Have made the varius factions playable & assigned the factions the provinces they will have and have basically polished off the Roman starting position.

I have also, to the best of my ability changed the names of certain factions to historical names, for instance, it would be too fun playing Enrico the Qaghan of Khazaria http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif so i have been changing the names of the factions, when needed and to the best of my ability.

I will be real busy with work and school the next (2) weeks so you may not see me, but i will work on this whenever i get some spare time. The camp map looks really cool as does the various "new factions".

Additionally, MTW VI will be coming out in about a month, so that is when i hope to launch this new mod, when VI comes out, i hope to add some of the units etc from VI into this mod as they would be great, but until then ill have to wait and see.

Here are the Factions in this mod based in the year 889 AD

Romans
Qaghanate of Khazaria
Kievan Rus
Qaghanate of Bulgaria
Pecenegs
Agarenes (roman word for muslim arabs - this faction represents the many smaller arab emirates based in asia minor, and the Med islands)
Magyars
Kingdom of Great Moravia
Duchy of Croatia
Fatamid/Tulunids (Egypt)
Omayyads (Moors)
Kingdom of Italy
Kingdom of Burgundy
Kingdom of Germany
Kingdom of France
The Danes
The English
The Austurians (Spanish Leon)
The Spanish March (Navare and Aragon)
Pope

Rampaging pagans galore the progony of Charlemagne, vikings, Steppe warriors and fanatical arab raiding emirates. Should be lots of fun.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

kataphraktoi

03-25-2003, 14:32

Yo Galestrum

Lets update the units that people have to install top play this game:

Magyar Cavalry
Patriarch
Arab Corsair
Skutatoi
Klibanophori

please up to this list Galestrum so I know what I have install to play the campaign1

Pecenegs do they need a new unit? the Elite Pidgeonegg horse archers looks like a winner.

over the next few days I will upload existing units that have been revamped.

they locked my "herac and elwe are getting married" post, why????

I still have to make a Slav light infantry.

You guys will dig the Tagmata system in this mod, it will force you to choose where to send your elite forces, east or west, of it doesn;t then well I'll jus try and it harder????

I experimented with the Tagmata system, i restricted the top elite units to production in only Nicaea and Constantinople, I restricted the production of byz inf and skutatoi to asia minor provinces.

I haven't gotten deep into the campaign yet but I did have to make some choices whether to bolster the eastern frontier against the intact and looming armies of the Turds and Eggheadians, while the balkans are in rebel hands.

Meanwhile the Golden hordees are camped outside of Crimea.
yay

For some reason I doubled the cost to train and maintain the elite troops, it is pinching my treasury but thats the way the byz treasury works for according to historians, the byzantine army was the highest and best paid army in the world. so I gotta keep it real and keep it expensive.

Galestrum

03-25-2003, 20:19

You will need the community/LK unit pack ss Req to the community thread here in the dungeon

AND

any units that you make for the mod Kata.

A noble elite Peceneg unit would be good. They would be similar to boyars - call them Patzinak Nobles AND/OR make a generic RoyalSteppeCavalry unit for the steppe faction leader types. (Patzinak is what the Byz called the Pecenegs).

I'll prby be using Boyars for the Magyar and Moravian royal units.

We also need your serbian and croatian skirmisher units Kata.

I am giving the Khazars the Kwarziman as their Royal Unit, based on history.

So far I am going to limit all Tagmata units being prduced in COnstantinople only>

kataphraktoi

03-26-2003, 14:17

Are we using 69 units from LK

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh installation hell.

Anyway are we really using all 69 units????

kataphraktoi

03-26-2003, 14:22

fuzzwuzznuzz@hotmail.com for all enquiries heracliusio

gimme ur e-mail and I will chuck in some nice surprises.

Swamp Thing

03-26-2003, 17:02

I would like to contribute some points if I may.

Warren Treadgold in The Byzantine Revival 780-842 argues that after the invasion of 838 led by the Caliph Mu'tasim, Emperor Theophilos initiated some reforms to improve the performance of the Byzantine army:

1. The soldiers pay was improved from six to twelve nomisma. Treadgold speculates this enabled theme soldiers to buy better arms and equipment.

2. The Persian company of Khurramites was incorporated into the regular structure of the Themes, raising their offensive capability by the addition of experience cavalry.

3. The Bandon led by a count, which had previously been a battlefield formation, was turned into a territorial division. Treadgold also stated this enabled the Count to call up and drill the troops more often. Previously the soldiers had been divided amongst the themes by the turma, which is a thousand men. The new mode of organisation based around the Bandon allowed troops to be controled and summoned concentrated more effectively, resulting in an improvement in their fighting ability and discipline.

4. Frontier commands called Cleisura where also formed, which shielded vulnerable parts of the border, but were not yet full-fledged themes.

If you wish to take this into account, perhaps have the scenario extend to 842 rather then 700.

Here is a also a summary of ranks in the Thracesian theme circa 842

Strategos

Turmarch

Drungary

Counts

Centarch

Decarch

ordinary soldier

Galestrum

03-26-2003, 23:45

hey swamp thing, thank you for the info and the source http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Originally the mod was going to start in 863, however i chse 889 for many reasons.

1) moving the start date 863 or 842 would eliminate the following factions : The duchy of croatia, burgundy, magyars, pecenegs, Rus, & the English, as these factions were either non existant at the time, OR were insignificant OR off map at the time. Since I cannot make factions appear at a designated time like the mongolds etc, as seen in the normal game of MTW, I figured it would be better to allow more factions for the community. Ive already maxed out the factions and i bet someone will go "hey dumbie, what about the xyz faction" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

2) Based on the book The Making of Byzantium 600-1025by M. Whittow, The Byzantine Empire was on basically a defensive onlymilitary posture for quite sometime. That all changed when the Asia Minor Emirates based in Melitene and the their allies suffered (2) devastating defeats within a few weeks. These events marked the beginning of 100 year era of expansion for the empire & also witnessed the transformation of the army, going from a defensive Theme based Army to an offensive Tagmata based army.

So i chose 889 to include more factions & to capture the spirit of a rebirth in the empire, as well as the breaking up of the empire of charlemagne, and the emergence of powerful steppe powers (magyars, pecenegs, Rus)

BTW, if you have any suggestions for any unit types for the 889-1025 time period please feel free to describe them in asmuch detail as possible and give a source if possible so that we may also look at it and learn about it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

thanks for stopping by http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Galestrum

03-27-2003, 00:06

*** A Question? ***

Historically, how relevant was the Pope from 889-1071 ish?

The reason I ask is there will be no Crusades during this time period, so that takes alot of Popes factional powers away, his only other purpose would be to Excommunicate and give occassional money. I dont know much about the Pope in this time, other than the great schism and what not. Was he excommunicating faction leaders alot at this time, etc?

If not, would you all rather see a Kingdom of Britain Faction (Brittany) in place of the Pope?

Heraclius

03-27-2003, 03:38

The Pope was quite powerful in this time period I believe. After all he crowned Charlemagne, helped destroy the Lombards, ruled a swath of Central Italy called the Papal States, battled the incoming Normans, excommunicated many Byzantine Emperor's and Patriarchs of Consantinople, sent out priests to convert the various pagan "barbarians (as did the Patriarch), was kidnapped by a Byzantine Empire (admitedly before this time period) etc, etc. I would definitely rather have the Pope than a Breton kingdom.

Elwe

03-27-2003, 06:15

Especially as a single Breton kingdom really isn't entirely accurate for that time peroid...

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

kataphraktoi

03-27-2003, 06:25

A breton kingdom would let a player have more opportunities for glory.

But then again the Pope as powerufl as he was is still libale to become a plaything of any major power who could influence the election of a Pope.

keep in mind the Papacy always respawns very quickly and consistently, so if you made it a bretonian kingdom it would throw the Isle into choas again.

And besides, I am going to make an agent that can be produced by the Germans, I call him the Pope

Yessir I was looking in the MTW files and came across some agents that never made it into the game, with these spare files I can bring in a new agent with a never before seen look unless u r a CA fella.

The Pope acts as a Grand Inquisitor stamping his authority in Catholic lands and also useful as a pwan of GERMAN politics.

Whats the verdict.

DO we have a Pope agent or not?

Galestrum

03-27-2003, 09:18

I meant a Breton Kingdom the province of Brittany there was such a kingdom

as far as england King Alfred the Great united wessex and mercia and became the first King of england worthy of the name

Heraclius

03-27-2003, 22:59

I'd say no pope agent for the Germans. Instead I'd add some kind of intrigue-specialty Byzantine agent that could really show their true diplomatic skill and finesse. I don't have any specifics in mind though. Maybe a super spy or diplomat, a ravishing very marriable daughter (I can never get my princesses married), advanced assasin; I don't know, I'll trust you three to come up with a good idea and just wait to play the mod. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

DemonArchangel

03-27-2003, 23:39

ok
now, add an advanced assassin PLEASE

Heraclius

03-28-2003, 04:50

kat, I'm very sorry but I'm not sure if I'll have time to be your "guinea pig", I've been very busy lately and things just seem to keep getting more hectic. I'd be glad to comment on historical stuff but I'm just not sure I'll have enough time to effectively check and test a mod right now. I'm sorry, I know you'll just have to make do with old Elwe now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, but my hands are tied. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

kataphraktoi

03-28-2003, 15:27

I scrapped the Pope pawn I have the files all ready and now only a small tweak will suffice for a monk assassin.

Monk assassins can assasinate anyone but like an assassin can get caught and executed for his vile acts.

These monkies can be trained by Byzantines, they spread relgion and kill as well, wow what a difference

They are of course advantageous on home ground, when in foriegn territory their orthodox religion and nssty habit of killing people make them a villainous pest to be exterminated.

so hows this then???

Originally it was going to be a Cathar priest.

Heraclius

03-28-2003, 22:36

murderous monks? I'd go with silver tongued diplomats but killing someone with an orthodox monk would be kind of cool.

Galestrum

03-28-2003, 23:54

indeed a diplomatic monk and/or

a diplomat/assassin or diplomat/spy would be very roman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

***edit***

A monk that can convert and cause unrest would be great

A diplomat that can bribe, make treaties, yet have the functions of a spy would be great (cause unrest, spy, see vices, open castle doors) would be ideal

Galestrum

03-29-2003, 08:07

***UPDATE***

All right, I have assigned all the factions that I have mentioned, I kept the pope rather than add the Kingdom of Britain (Brittany).

Province ownership has been completed.

Provnce resources, culture, and buildings have been completed, although i will still probably fine tune some buildings in a few provinces but it is for all intents completed.

Appropriate names have been giving to all the factions except the Bulgarians - I will look up some Bulgar names in my book and perhaps the internet, shouldnt be too big a deal, all the other factions have pretty much appropriate names.

Regarding titles, some factions I have no idea what their titles are, and some may be different in 889 than they were for the normal MTW game. If anyone feels they know more appropriate titles for the Pecenegs khazars, bulgarians, magyars etc feel free to post them here, what they should take the place of, and cite any sources if you can http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Up next i need to go into the crusader file and adjust units, add units, and get rid of or mod units. After that, I can finish troop deployments and the mod should be ready for a rough test.

***Kata***

So far I have the following units from you: Klibaraphoi (sp), Magyar Cavalry, Arab Corsairs, and the Patriarch agent.

I need the following units from you before i can complete my crusader file and startpos for testing :

Slavic Infantry (fast, can hide, javelins good ag armor, shield, little to no armor, spears)

Ghazi Cavalry (or whatever we are gonna call them, used by the raiding emirates, fanatical, etc)

Peceneg (Patzinak Roman Name for Pecenegs) Elite/Noble/Royal cavalry (not 3 units just 1, i just listed ideas to call them), should be horse archers in mail, sabre, spear

Serbian/Croatian Archers/Skirmishers, I think you have already finished these but i dont know where to D/L these from, link me?

Magyar footsoldier armed with bow and sword, mail armor

Skutaktoi (sp?) i know you have completed but yet again i dont have it cant find it, can you link me?

Kataphraktoi (the unit not you the crazy modder http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ) -you mentioned a mod of this unit that had a bow, lance etc, i dont have this yet, is it done? if so link me hehe

Galestrum

03-29-2003, 08:20

Quote[/b] ]
Can I make changes to Islamic cavalry, since archery is dominant in Islamic warfare giving the Khwarazmian cavalry bows would give us challenging enemies. I am thinking of adding bows to other cavalry units in the Islamic line up except for the Almohads

Units tweaked :
Kataphraktoi (added bow) D
Khwarazmian Cavalry (added bow and axe) D
Byzantine Cavalry (added lance) D
Polish Retainer now a Bulgar Boyar D

New units made from scratch:
Klibanophori D
Magyar Horse Archers I
Slav light skirmishers I
Croatian Brigands D
Skutatoi D
Norman knight (proposed) no status
Arab corsair (proposed) no status

OK just to catch up too, I need your updated versions of Kataphraktoi,Kwarazmian, & Byz Cavalry.

I dont think you need to worry about a Norman Knight unit, i have already given F knights valour bonus in Normandy, plus at this time 889 AD The Norman Knight didnt really exist until later, at which time theyd just be higher valour normal knights UNLESS there was something historically different about norman Knights than normal knights that i am unaware of?

Galestrum

03-29-2003, 08:27

As far as the 69 unit community/LK mod, no we will not be using all of them.

Off the top of my head I used the following units from there.

Klivanarioi (basically your Klib, but i use these as the Royal Unit, they have bows, will compliment your Klib Unit)

BalticWarband Spearmen & Javelinman
Georgian Cavalry
Anatolian Highlanders
Phyrgia Psiloi
BulgarianHeavyCav
MagyarLightCav
Breton Javelinmen
WelshSpearmen
WelshLongspearmen
Irish Light Cavalry
Highland Cavalry
BonnachtSpearmen
Immortals (Roman Unit elite infantry "imperial guard")
Menavatoi Super Heavy Infantry of romans
Hoplite (spear version of byz infantry)
CumanArchars
CumanMercenaryCavalry
NubianJavelin
Trapezitoi

kataphraktoi

03-29-2003, 13:57

I'll sort out these links this weekend and hopefully have all of them sorted out.

here's an update:

Monk agent has been completed.

And I made another useful unit, its called the vassal,
in Byzantium's history they've often sponsored their enemies's internal rivals to fight their wars for them. If successful the vassal rules the territory as a vassal for the Byzantines, territroy acquired basically, they also get the income as a tribute.

kataphraktoi

03-29-2003, 15:25

I will post the links of the new units then the modded old units later.

mystery unit (http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/CroatianBrigands.zip)

mystery unit 2 (http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/GhaziCavalry.zip)

mystery unit 3 (http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Monk.zip)

mystery unit 4 (http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/SerbianBrigands.zip)

mystery unit 5 (http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Vassal.zip)

If these mods goes goofy jus give us a buzz and I'll fix it.

kataphraktoi

03-29-2003, 15:27

I was occupied with new agents and haven't been able to make pechens and slavies but they're on their way. word out.

Super cool.

Galestrum

03-29-2003, 15:40

hey Kata http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

ill add these to my MTW and see how things are, and as soon as I have something resembling a finished/playable product ill send you the needed files, of course youll need to have the units from the 69 community pack installed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

good work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Heraclius

03-29-2003, 17:23

you two are gods. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

PS-Galestrum, I believe it is spelled skutatoi. and what are klivanarioi?

Lord Krazy

03-29-2003, 17:28

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Mar. 26 2003,07:17)]Are we using 69 units from LK

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh installation hell.

Anyway are we really using all 69 units????
I'll make an install for the units if you want.
Lord Kas will be updating some of the units soon also
But you should make your own install really.

More so if you only intend to use only some of them.
If you wish we can make an install just for the ones you want also.Let me know if this would help or not.
regards

LK

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Galestrum

03-29-2003, 17:48

*** UPDATE & ANSWERS ***

ok, well i have a basic working mod as of now. Lots of hair pulling and expletives were uttered, but now all that is needed is adding new units, placing tropp deployments and some tweaks to provincial buildings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Once i have all the needed units tested, tweaked and finalized we shall see how it looks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

I am also thinking about adding the so called civil rights add ons for pagan and jewish agents and buildings. Khazar was a jewish nation, and many of the factions in this mod are pagan. Ive never tinkered with this, so ill probably kill myself in frustration, but what the heck, im a glutton for punishment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Also, when VI comes out, that will allow for the "final version" of this mod. From what the expert modders out there surmise, we may have opportunites for new units/looks and perhaps buildings, etc, plus the option to change faction colours etc.

It would also be nice if the history buffs could find battle standards for the factions in this mod and we could add them, for a finer touch - thats all for now, im sure i forgot something and will post a reply in the next 60 seconds though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

to Lk I am totally lost regarding zipping, uploading, downloading, posting, and auto installing and all that high tech jazz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif perhaps Kata will know more than I. Once i Have something worth offering to the public ill contact you, if we cannot figure it out ourselves. thx for the offer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Hera sup there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif The Kliv are another way of spelling Klib, they come from the 69 community unit mod. Historical references suggest that the Klib were heavy shock cavalry, but that one in five were archer cavalry. Well it just so happens that these (2) units are distinctive in archer and shock, the Kliv are archers and Kata's Klib are shock.

So, I made the Kliv the royal unit, that are archers, and Kata's Klib the shock Thus you will have the various regiments of the Tagmata represented by: the Klib, Kliv, Kata, and Byz Cav, along with the Immortals, Menavatoi & Varagians as the Tagmatic Infantry.

And Hera you are Greek you better know how to spell these guys correctly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Of course in the Book by Bartusis, he said Byzantine Greek was very hard compared to the other forms, so ill let you slide this time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

kataphraktoi

03-31-2003, 13:26

Guys I discovered some flaws in the mods:

Arab Corsairs is missing LBM file in the mtw/battle/uniticons folder. I used the hashashin lbm file in the same folder so just copy the it in the same folder and rename it "arabcorsairs"

The vassal mod does not, work no matter what I did it did not work.

good news is that ghazicav and pecheneghorsearcher is ready to download yay.

Galestrum scream expletive and rip ur hair as much as can cos that means a good mod campaign. for the glory of byzantium

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

kataphraktoi

03-31-2003, 13:47

pechies (http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/pechenegnoble.zip)

slavinfantiles (http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/SlavInfantry.zip)

ghazzo's horsies (http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/GhaziCavalry.zip)

Galesstrum I leave it up you to change their stats once again, you decide what stats are appropiate for the mod.

Since u have the know how and who's the factions I leave it ur discretion.

its very unfortunate about the vassal it would have been a good unit after all

I still have a few units on the board:

Saint as an agent. just another big name preacher for the byzantines, there were a couple of living saints for the Byzantines and some dead ones, I 'm thinking of a warrior saint unit, he doesn;t kill but he's still one mean preacher..........or maybe another.

Warrior Saint unit...but then again with all the Tagmatic cavalry thats going around I think it has no place.

Kliv archers
Klib shock absorbers
katas archers and shockers
byz cavalry

thats what I call offensive units - wow so many elite units

I hope Galestrum makes them expensive to train and build cause they're really worth their weight in armour. i could certainly use a fiscal challenge as well as a military one.

How bout a few new buildings???
Byzantine loved buildings churches and buildings, any Emperor worth his salt will try to immortalise his name with buildings:

in the works are:(mweaNING THINKING OF)
THE GREAT PALACE
SAINT ANASTASIOS MONASTERY
SAINT DEMETRIOS CATHEDRAL
VIRGIN HODGETRIA CHURCH
NEA CHURCH

they are nothing new but for any player who would like to fill up his capital with nice buildings that generate gold

I am thinking of making a muslim and catholic equivalent set as well, when I of course have the time off.

they are meant to be unique buildings built in one place and for anyone who captures the province they can destroy it for money money money, any pagan faCTION woudl like that.

kataphraktoi

03-31-2003, 17:26

YO LORD KRAZY I appreciate your input in this thread could u link me your 69 unit community mod, it is time I started to install these fellas.

Yo Galestrum want me to do the write up for the mod, the README of all READMES.

Man I cant wait to use the tagmatas against a sea of heathens.

I am starting arrange all my modded existing units, they should be available for download soon, I got work at uni so I don;t have that luxury. I will put of me new buildings mod, they can be added after the release of the mod, no need to budren the current mod.

Kudos Galestrum. Keep up the good work.

Heraclius - u have msn?
Elwe - u have msn?

Galestrum

04-01-2003, 01:33

Hey guys, as i said earlier im gonna be very busy this week, i have a paper due for university & a court case due within the week, so ill have no time for this, but after these are completed i should be able to have this done and available for testing soon.

Just wanted to let you know in case i dont have time to post this week. take care guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Lord Krazy

04-02-2003, 00:14

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Mar. 31 2003,10:26)]YO LORD KRAZY I appreciate your input in this thread could u link me your 69 unit community mod, it is time I started to install these fellas.
Sure no problem
here (http://thelordz.co.uk/zips/TheORGCommunityUnitsMod.zip) is the latest update.

Quote[/b] ](kataphraktoi @ Mar. 26 2003,07:17)
Are we using 69 units from LK

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh installation hell.

Was this intuition or a guess.

You should install it before
making such statments really.
It does not encourage others to
try and based on your request
I can only assume you have not
tried it.So you can't honestly say
it's an installation hell if
you never installed it.

Gees they even get their retaliation in first these days
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

So install it first and then criticize it.
Like eveyone else http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Lord Krazy

04-02-2003, 00:19

Quote[/b] (Galestrum @ Mar. 31 2003,18:33)]i have a paper due for university & a court case due within the week,
Gee I hope they don't send you to prison http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

He only wanted to make a mod.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Galestrum

04-02-2003, 01:50

lol I am not the bad guy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

kataphraktoi

04-02-2003, 15:33

Lord Krazy don;t take it personally, I wasn't criticising the mod for itself but rather the prospect of 69 units, it was a matter of quantitive considerations rather than the integrity of your mod.

Understand me or what?

If you took it seriously then you are mistaken for taking it as such, it was jest rather than out of any spite or cupidity towards your unit mod.

Lord Krazy

04-02-2003, 18:42

Me take things serious, are you serious? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I just don't like people being funnier than me OK

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

So did you try it?
Can you use it, or part of it?
Seen as you don't want the gun guys.

A new prod has been provided by
Lord Kasskop which will be added
Tomorrow.

regards,

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Heraclius

04-02-2003, 23:39

sorry kat, I don't have MSN.

kataphraktoi

04-03-2003, 05:54

Yo LK
seems u have exceeded ur bandwidth limit so i couldn;t get the unit mod pack.

guess it wuz too popular.

Ok u r funny.

Hmm LK what do you think of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry from Shogun, do you think its better than the Golden Horde heavy Cav???

I'm thinking of modding it into MTW, u done it yet???
If you have wdone it what how does the Mongol Heavy Cav play out? good bad???

Lord Krazy

04-03-2003, 07:11

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ April 02 2003,22:54)]

Quote[/b] ]Yo LK
seems u have exceeded ur bandwidth limit so i couldn;t get the unit mod pack.

guess it wuz too popular.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif More suckers than I tought http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

What's wrong with you people get a life http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Quote[/b] ]I'm thinking of modding it into MTW, u done it yet???

No sorry.

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Lord Krazy

04-03-2003, 07:26

Quote[/b] ]seems u have exceeded ur bandwidth limit

It seems to be back on line again.
I hope I have enough this time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

kataphraktoi

04-04-2003, 16:40

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH

i CHECKED thru the unit mods and found all kinds of errors old and new, seems I didn;t update the files when i completed the mod for MTW

This week and next I will be busy fixing this up and releasing it as complete packagae next to LORD KRAZY's most sublime unit mod pack.

Sorry all ye fellas.

Hows the it going Galestrum with the mod, is Byzantium ready to kick some emirates?

Lord Krazy

04-04-2003, 22:27

Welcome to the realities of modding this
element of mtw. The fact you see the errors
means you know what you are doing.
The errors are all part of putting a mod like this
togeather.It's not a fault it's a human condition. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Been there, done that , doing it again. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

kataphraktoi

04-05-2003, 15:23

Yeah I had to reinstall MTW and cleaned out the trash files.
I hope to reinstall in the future again hehe

kataphraktoi

04-10-2003, 05:55

I tried the Ghazi Cavalry mod this week in a Turkish, very very nice indeed.....their greatest asset is the first charge into enemy ranks, melee not their best, their speed however is another great asset.

I used the Ghazi Cavalry to sweep behind enemy lines and take out annoying archers as well as enemy heavy cavalry and infantry. Good for charging behind elite units.

Takes few casualties despite their low armour, poor defence and poor melee, cheap to train. Excellent morale though meaning they will give a good account of themselves under a low ranking general.

Will try out Magyar Cavalry soon

Heraclius

04-11-2003, 03:09

what are they armed with?

kataphraktoi

04-11-2003, 16:25

These Ghazis are armed with a spear and a shield but their fanaticsm is their most important weapon, they take quite a beating and can stand their ground against heavier opponents. Should I make them faster???

A whole army of these can beat thw Golden Horde I haven't done that yet cos my frontiers are all active hotspots of combat against the Almohads and Germans.

I am thinking of leaving out the Arab Corsairs from the mod, the GHAZI cavalry is meant to be that corsair unit.

I am scrapping the Patriarch unit and leaving the Monk assassin.

Swamp Thing

04-16-2003, 14:39

Kataphractoi and Co, this mod sounds really great, keep it up

I was just thinking, if you do plan to include the Arabic corsair unit, why not make it region specific, namely Crete and Sicily, but it can only be built by Islamic civilisations who occupy those territories.

Crete and Sicily were both conquered by the Muslims in the 9th century.

Sicily was taken by the Aghlabids of North Africa when the Caliph sent an expedition to aid a rebelling Byzantine officer in 827, led by Asad Ibn al-Furat.

Crete was conquered by a gang of freebooters from al-Andalus, led by Abu Hafs around the same period, and soon made the Aegean a dangerous region for Byzantine raiders (Though a Byzantine army wiped out a substantial force of Cretan Arabs when they landed in the Thracesian theme in 841 or 842).

Cheers

KurnoustheHunter

04-24-2003, 13:39

Hi there Kataphraktoi,

I myself have started to mod MTW and the first lot I modded were the Byzantines

I downloaded the Klib and Skutatoi units from the orgs downloads. Not sure if they were yours.

After just a glance I found both units overpowered by far. so I changed them.

Klib for now are Kata with +1 Melee +1 Def.

Skutatoi are 5/1/2/3 with proper spears (hence 5/2/4/3 + shields) when holding formation. I gave them 3 Javelins as well. for 350 points for a unit of 60 they are expensive but good unit. they are of course disicplined with 2 morale.

I also changed the Byz. Cav charge stat to 4 (considering 6) since they were supposed to have a lance as well.

My brother tested this starting late period on Hard level and won convincingly. Klib's helped him alot as did skutatoi.

Now here is my problem....

I'm trying to Mod the Byzantines to be as realistic, historical and balanced as possible. I've done alot of internet research which after many hours in not even as informative as a basic search in the ORG.

Basically I am in a total state of confusion as to how the core byzantine army was composed POST Manzikert. I wanted to gauge the possibilities of retaining an effective native army if the Byzantines reconqered regions such as Anatolia.

questions as of yet unsolved are those such as...were Skutatoi or equivalents used in any significant numbers post Manzikert? What where the restrictions? what of Kavallarioi (i.e Byz Cav) or Kata's (I've read descriptions of them being mace wielding).

After the Varangians who guarded the Emperor? was there an elite NATIVE footman unit at all towards the end of the Byzantine empire (i.e late period?)

There are so many questions I have about the Byzantine military just prior to and more importantly...after Manzikert. I'm not interested in mercenaries. I'm talking proper Imperial troops.

Anyway here are my Idea's.

Skutatoi/Kontaratoi- as mentioned above 5/1/2/3 morale 2, spears, 2 Jav- 60.

Produced in Anatolia ONLY. Requires SPEARMAKER2, ARMOURER1, ORTHODOX CHURCH.

This represents the supposed fact that Anatolia was the major recruiting ground for native troops in the empire. I know that in the Late period it is rebel and decsolate so the byzantines would have to re-establish the infrustracture and occupy the place for sometime (by sheer fact of having to build all these buildings&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif for it to be ruly re-integrated into the empire.

Byz Cav- Change Charge from 2....to perhaps 4-6. Represents the fact they had lances. Not sure where to restrict building or whether to add requirements.

Kataphraktoi- almost the same...but with MACES. AP but charge of only 4.

Was thinking of early, high late like other royal units. Early as above with maybe 4 def, 6 arm, then mid 5 -7 then late with 4 attack. Up speed alittle but not as much as other knights.

Add menavlion Skutatoi/Kontaratoi much like Militia Sgt but Disciplined and +1 Melee and Defence vs. Cav. Same restrictions as standard Skutatoi/Kontaratoi but repalce Spearmaker with SWORDMAKER2.

Aside from the idea's I have little else. Trepizondi Cavalry much like jinettes would be cool as would Trep. archers with composite bows.

anyway must go now, but will post again. till then please reply on your thoughts and any help you can offer

Thanks Kata and everyone else

Mike

kataphraktoi

04-24-2003, 14:18

Kurnous, they were my Klib and Skut mods.

Klibs overpowered?

not when they cost 1300 florins a year, take 2 years to train and can only be trained in Nicaea, they require:
A master armourer
A master horse breeder
A royal palace

sure they match the later western knights but you have to remember what the Klibanophoris are: they are elite tagmatic cavalry who pound for pound are much more expensive than the western knights and quite possibly better. In the MTW hand book the Kataphraktoi was the heaviest cavalry known, since the Klibanophori was in all essential character a super - Kataphraktoi imagine how much more heavily armoured they were.
I realise the immense power that comes with the Klibanophori but I also made sure it had its weaknesses as well such as for instance its slowness, they are also vulnerable to arrows in a given situation, I have reduced their unit size to 30. Plus they suck in desert warfare, ive had alan mercenary cavalry crush and rout a whole unit of klibanophoroi.

I think u installed the first version of the Klibanophori and hence it was overpowered with no justification, the latest version however makes sure that its power is justified by historical and practical function with several balances.

Klibs carried a kontos and a mace, clearly they were expected to be troop crushers and melee specialists

Klibs were the actually the only Byzantine cavalry to have mounts with complete armour, Kataphraktois with horses with frontal armour or no armour.

Since then I have toned down the klibs power taking into consideration its increased power under 8 star byzantine generals woohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo and remember it is not invincible even stinky light cavalry can destroy them.

They are the most expensive unit in the game and also a handicap to the economy, it is at the expense of a bigger army that I keep a smaller one with elite units.

U want to know bout the Byzantine army after manizkert?

Native troops after Manizkert was relatively small, demoralised and of poor quality, mercenaries were the majority of the army.

Turkish soldiers made a considerable proportion of the armt as light cavalry, while heavy cavalry thru pronoia allagion or hiring norman or frankish cavalry. There was a trend in unarmoured infantry because the money for armour was simply not there.

Elite troops after the Varangians consisted of foreign troops for showcase and ceremonial purposes, although there is evidence Vardariot Turkish Christians and Cretan archers were hired as these "elite" bodyguards.

Cumans and Pechenegs were also hired in considerable numbers, the latter more so after the battle iof Levunium.

Byzantine light cavalry was the TRAPEZITOI

Keep it simple because the Byzantine army had no space for anything fancy:

BYZANTINE COMPOSITION:
Turkish light cavalry
Western Heavy Cavalry
Unarmoured infantry
Trapezitoi light cavalry with javelins
Varangian Guard (Varangian Guards were abolished in 1204)
Pechenegs

Just remember since Byzantium survived after Manizkert it can be assumed that it could recover its original strength as it stabilised itself.

The Klibanophori disappeared after Manizkert........

kataphraktoi

04-24-2003, 17:31

unit update

I took errors out of the pecheneghorsearcher mod

It works now, these pecheneghorsearchers are actually the upper end of the pecheneg strata meaning they are the noble pecheneg chiefs who in all likeliness would don mail/lamellar armour and carry a bow plus a sword.

It is a medium cavalry something akin to byzantine cavalry.......hoooooooooray.

these fellas can only be made in Danubian, Southern Russia regions.

hungarians, russians, novgorod, byzantines.........

wat do u guys rekon?

kataphraktoi

04-24-2003, 17:33

oh yeah one more thing I have klibanophoriarchers made already I don;t know whether to include this in or not

Klibanophori archers made up 1/3 of the a Klibanophori unit.

Galestrum?

kataphraktoi

04-24-2003, 17:53

NEWS JUST IN

I have just completed and made an immaculate no errors new unit of vicious Magyar cavalry wooohooooooo

Magyar come armed with a lance and a bow

while slower than the Pecheneghorsearchers they pack a deadlier punch with an irresistible charge.

they are going to be hungarian faction's unit until the high period, from then on the royal knights will be the premeir faction leader's unit.

kataphraktoi

04-24-2003, 18:18

yo galestrum I couldn;t get the Slav infantry working, might need a bit more time on this one, I'm not happy with unit itself as a whole.

I mooted the Arab Corsair, as I mentioned before the Ghazi cavalry perfectly fills that role and should be a prominent component of any Arab Emirate army.

What other units did I say I was gonna make?

The monk unit has got the thumbs up

I mooted the byzantine saboteur and the byzantine patriarch unit, the monk is enough as a byzantine agent unit, preaching and killing is good enough.

kataphraktoi

04-24-2003, 18:46

Ghazi Cavalry
Khwarazmian Cavalry upgrade
Kataphraktoi upgrade
Magyar Cavalry
Pecheneghorsearcher
Monk
Serbian Brigands
Croatian Brigands

these mods are zipped into a compressed file, they are error free and should work fine

wait for the link galestrum, theres plenty more add ons to be added to the zipped file.

finally these damn mods are getting updated woohooo

Any thoughts on new buildings for the Byzantine, no particular function but make some money, not much money though because the important thing is the glory of the empire and the morale bonus.

I have in mind:
Nea Church built by Basil I
Great Lavra on Mt Athos built by Nicephorus Phocas

I played around with giving Constantinople a fortress, royal palace, bowyer, horse breeder, etc, the basic structures, the Klibanophori takes too damn long to train with all the requisite buildings required, it should not take more than 95 yrs to build the required buildings.
But these were settings for the Alexius Comnenus mod.

Did u add any buildings for thw Byzantines iin the startpos txt file for early period??????????

TAGMATA rules...

Some reports on test runs:
2 pecheneghorsearcher units demolished 1 Klibanophori unit, first they wore down the heavy cavalry with arrows then charged them from front and back and crushed them.
Klibanophori is the best cavalry around for the Byzantines and it was destroyed by Turks...noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Magyar cavalry excellent for flanking and harassing tactics. Versatile and at a pinch can be used as a heavy cavalry without heavy armour though medium cavalry is what it really is.....

Klibanophori with tweaked stats, made slightly weaker than the first version, I made them a bit faster but still way slower than other heavy cavalry units. Powerful but not that powerful. Still can;t believe the pecheneg smacked the Klibs silly.

Kataphraktoi was made faster since it no longer is the heaviest cavalry going around.

BREAKFAST AT TIFFANY'S

Heraclius

04-24-2003, 21:35

seems like you did a great job. Why do you always get to the good posts first? I was practically drooling when I read Kournos's post and then you answered it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

KurnoustheHunter

04-25-2003, 05:25

Hey there Kataphraktoi and others,

firstly about your klib unit. it was 8/7/10/8 or something like that with armour piercing right?

biggest thing I disagree with is mixing an AP weapon with an absolutely huge charge. Knights got a huge charge bonus from lances. Look at Knights Templar and Gothic Knight's with hand weapons or mace. Charge bonus is only 4.

Also I disagree with any unit getting over 6 attack or over 5 if Cavalry, not the mention a cavalry unit having more defence and/or similar armour to Lancers or gothic knights. Byzantine's never had anything like those suits of armour im sure and if so only in tiny amounts.

Ok my klib rant over.

Now about Kataphraktoi the unit. In your mod/eyes are they Byz Cav. or do you have thre sets of cav.....Byz Cav, Kata's and klib. its just not so clear in my eyes thats all.

Anyway I must go. Please do post up your new links soon. all your previous ones are totally broken and have been for a few weeks.

cya's all and hope your modding turns out well.

Mike

kataphraktoi

04-25-2003, 06:07

The new Klibanophori has stats of 8/7/7/8/8

The Klibanophori has always had a devastating charge, thats why they were heavily armoured and armed, they also carried a mace which was in all practical terms an armour piercing weapon, I am only reflecting what the KLibanophori troopers had as their battle equipment.
The military treatises mention this especially amongst elite troops as well.

Khwarazmian Cavalry has a charge bonus of 6 compared to Goth knights how does that work????

Byzantines did not I agreee have the similar armour of Goth knights but remember the Byzantines did form their own kind of special troopers with distinct armour equipment, Klibanophori troopers numbered 500 at their peak as Tagmatic shock troopers, if they were any smaller yu might as well pack them off home to Anatolia. So there needed to be a reasonable number.

Lets have a look at the equipment of the Klibanophori:

Mail Corselet over whatever clothing the Klibanophori wears underneath.

Over the top of this corselet is a Lamellar Klibanion, stretching to the knees and to the elbows. Lamellar proved to be strong and flexible.

Vambraces and Greaves are worn with a Metal overshoe, any parts of the body showing is covered by additional mail

Epilorikon of padded coat 3/4 inches thick over the Klibanion from kness to elbows

Helmet of iron with 2-3 layers of thick mail covering all but eyes

mail reinforced with plate gauntlets

Horses are fully covered mounts.

Is this the description of a lightweight cavalry?

Sicne they were heavier even than the Western Knights, the Kinetic power combined with the weight behind it converting into potential energy would surely justify a powerful charge.

If at any time they should be powerful it should be the early period but after that they have to compete with the later western knights.

SO u are right the Byz never had the same kind of armour but they instead developed their own heavy cavalry shock trooper, Ian Heath who studied the Byzantine military described the Klibanophori as "super-heavy cavalry"

As u can see with the new stats the Klibanophori is similar to the later western knights but more disciplined and certainly better armed because of their versatility being trained under Nicephorus Phocas.

The first klibanophoris were definitely overpowered, after a while I did more research and tuned it down according to the historical sources available.

In mod eyes I tended to keep the cavalry as they are.

yeah I will fix the broken ones later.
the Ghazi cavalry is a real treat.

kataphraktoi

04-25-2003, 08:32

Galestrum, the darn slav infantry works now after I changed the body type

100 men in one unit, 100 javelins flying at the enemy but they're pretty weak in melee, thats bout right.

KurnoustheHunter

04-26-2003, 08:28

Hello again,

One question which wasn't answered....in peoples mod's like Galestrum's Alexius Comnenus mode and Kata's WIP mod how many forms of distinct Cavalry do you guys have? I'm alittle confused. It seems that in Kata's mod have two types. that is originals of byz cav now = Kata, and originals Kata now = Klib unit. Is this correct?

And to make things alittle more murky...which units did the Emperor's and major nobility fight in? Bow and lance cav, or super heavy cav? or for that matter Varangian guard?

about Klib's again. That charge you have given them is greater in pure shock value then any charge in the game,by far better then ANY knight Not only that but it is AP.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-byzantine and I'm not have a go at you. That attack value is just so unbalanced. Are you going to tell me that this unit has almost twice the attack value and shock value as a bunch of huge bad ass germanic knights?

You normal attack value for klib's is -1 from a gothic knights charge

about their armour. I take your point about their heaviness, sure. I agree they were VERY well protected. However 'high' period knights (1300's) were very well protected as well. They had padded leather all underneath, followed by high quality chain-mail the length of their bodies, then basic plate (half plate in game terms)with a breast plate and basic plate such as greaves and vambraces. Roughly the equivalent of your description right? Only substantial difference is cavalry barding. Euro-cav at that time used forms of quilted barding whilst I would consider a klib as armoured barding.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this exactly. Suffice to say I can't see any stat worth going over a few sacred design rules there seem to have been put in place in the game, or in fact in reality-historical type terms.

An AP weapon should NOT have a greater base attack then 5. 4 seems to be the max I would and dare I say other's would as well. Defence and Armour im not sure about. the most I can see Klib's armour going is 8 max and defence 7 which to be fair to you...you have observed.

But please I urge you to be cautious with making any unit too powerful otherwise the respectibility of the mod will suffer. This is exactly what I don't want to happen to any mod.

just my humble opinion. cheers everyone,

Mike

kataphraktoi

04-27-2003, 13:45

Concerning the Emperors and their major nobles I would assume it depends on where they are in the fighting, either in the front or commanding in the background.

Emperors would in all likelihood wear the standard heavy cavalry equipment of the Kataphraktoi same as nobles as well, Byzantines specificed equipments for certain troops for certain roles, the nobles could either be in the shock troops or officer role in battle. It varies.

I did not cast doubts on the later western knights equipment I merely tried to point out that the Klibanophoris were just as well equipped to deserve their particular stats. Byzantine equipment was off high quality as well, soldiers were paid well by the Byzantines to afford high quality.

Sacred design rules don;t play a part in the stats I try to reflect their practical abilities and function, as I said before in the README change the stats to ur pleasure, I did that because I knew people wouldn;t agree with me, I didn;y agree with them either thats why i revised them over time, I accept that people change them but I any cahnges I make I stick with them with the weight of careful deliberation behind. So I can accept the changes you made without having to agree with them.

Byzantine cavalry are as follows in my mod byz cav, kat and klib.

Standard byz cav was the thematic cavalry but the Kats and the Klibs are tagmatic cavalry.

Thematic are the common types

Tagmatic are tyhe elite types, thats why they can only be produced in certain provinces.

you 'll find with my mods I tell people to change the stats if they want but don;t expect me to agree with them.
I have my reasons they have their reasons, i just want people to enjoy the choice of the military units, whatever stats they want to suit the game is their own business.

I am glad you have done so and more importantly used it for your own game, it shows people take interest.

KurnoustheHunter

04-28-2003, 12:28

Hey Kata,

Thanks for understanding my Point of View. I'm glad you created the units in the first place http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

About Byzantine Cav thanks for clearing it up. Today I was thinking about it at work and I was going to design three types of units. The Basic Byz Cav I thought must have been local (Thematic).

That lead me to think that an 'upscale' version would be available to Tagmatic forces. Indeed some Warhammer Ancient Battles lists I've seen on the internet have represented 10th Century Byzantine Cavalry this way.

I believe then that True Kataphroktoi can then be represented. 8/3/4/6/4 with bows or even 8/3/5/7/4 with bows (both normal speed).

Klib's will then be the AP super heavies which would also be slow.

Question is...how are you going to represent Tagmatic force avialability? obviously they were based in Constantinople. would you limit them to being built there? Or would you develop a unique building based in a capital (As Wes from WesW Mod has?). just wondering how you ave done it.

anyway again my time is up.

Again hope all goes well with the mod, and...ill be happy to test it.

kataphraktoi

04-28-2003, 12:46

cool man me thinks we kinda got carried away with the mod issue......

With Tagmatic availability I restricted the Kats to Constantinople and the Klibs to Nicaea, with the Klib its a handicap, I have my startpos settings on the Alexius Comnenus period which means Nicaea is in Turkish hands and also heavily fortified keeping mind Nicaea was an important Seljuk capital at that time, that means u won;t get a head start in Constantinople because u can't train Klibs in Constantinople.

The best cavalry came from Asia Minor so i thought making the Klibs come from Nicaea the most prosperous part of Asia Minor would be suited to the expenses of raising such cavalry.

Since the Klibs were destroyed in Manizkert I thought that the resurrection of them could only occur once the Byzantines seized back substantial parts of Asia Minor and sustained some sort of stability to rediscover their lost military prowess. Well thats the them of the Alexius Comnenus setup,. i decided not to make a Alexius COmnenus mod, really its only a change in start position of each faction, nothing really spectacular, it reflects history and provides a damn good challenge as well, mainly prolonged attrition in Asia Minor before a decisive battle against the Turks opens up Asia Minor.

Galestrum

04-29-2003, 01:12

Geeesh thats alot to catch up on hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif , well i am back just finished my final final at univesity and ill be graduating with my 2 degrees http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ok ill try to address things in a logical way, so here goes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

First i have (2) mods going, one is my Alexius Mod & the other is the 889 AD campaign with Kata here. Both are basically done, all i need to do is get Katas new units, test them and place them and once everything seems hunky dorey it will be released.

Next, a historical question regarding the byzantine army post-manzikert. I think Kata summed it up real good, but i will expand. As Kata said, almost the entire byzantine force post manzikert was merc oriented to some degree. Turks, pecenegs etc composed the light cav, with roman nobles and western knights being the heavy cavalry. Conscripts were usually light infantry/archers. If you want i can get more in depth, but suffice to say, for the purposes of this thread Byz army post manzikert = mercs from many many different lands, with a core of roman nobles.

Regarding the 889 Mod

After exhaustive research, in books, magazines, online etc, i have come up with the best idea of the Theme armies that i can. Basically the theme armies are you Byz Cav, Byz Inf and Treb Archers, with everything else being the Tagmata.

Regarding the Kliv Stat discussion, the Kliv were every bit the equal of late western knights, and their armor was as good and probably superior in many ways, beyond protection. I am not worried about "balance" in this mod from the standpoint of "we cant make this unit powerful, just because the west cant match it until the 1300s". My intent here is to reflect history in terms of econmy, military, diplomatic and geographical power.

Now the Kliv unit, will of course be balanced in that, it will be costly, and extremely limited in production. For instance, Tagmata units will be restricted to production in Constantinople OR the highest level fortifications. Tagmata forces will be costly to produce and maintain. The fact of limited production plus high costs, balances very well against their "leetness" if you catch my drift. Yeah Kliv may roll over a Knight unit or two, but if the Byzantines lose a Kliv unit they are decimated, whereas other factions will be able to churn out top notch units far more easily.

Additionally, as stated earlier, the whole spearmaker etc production line has been eliminated, production is based on fort size, with a few other tweaks. To reflect the byzantine situation, all Tagmata and Theme units will need relatively high degrees of production (high level forts and royal palaces etc) whereas feudal and arab units are generally lower down on the production scale.

Are the Byzantine Units, early on far superior to other factions, Yes. However, they now face, relatively more powerful foes, have less land (based on history) and therefore less money, and there frontline units req relatively higher production and cost alot more.

This mod is not intended to be a cakewalk for the Byzantines, quite to the contrary, if anything, it is meant to be a nigh impossible http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and far more challenging than what CA gave us in the original.

Quote[/b] ]oh yeah one more thing I have klibanophoriarchers made already I don;t know whether to include this in or not

Klibanophori archers made up 1/3 of the a Klibanophori unit.

Kliv/Klib units had 1/5 being archers. Now i have a Klib unit and a Kliv already. What I have done is given the archer unit to be the "royal" unit, whereas your unit Kata, is the standard unit. Seems to work out pretty good to me, from when i have played.

Also one other note, in the Alexius Mod, all units, even Kilv are available for production, merely because the Kliv arent attested to after Manzikert, does not mean that they couldnt have been rebuilt. The byzantine army merely chose a new way of being, the themes could have been brought back, they chose not to. I have read a few books and articles, the reasons for going from byzantine armies to merc armies are many and varied, but ill leave that discussion for a later date.

kataphraktoi

04-29-2003, 04:45

Now its my turn to be overwhelmed with work at uni. for the next month I have assignments to hand in every week at the rate of one a week, three essays..........major third year essays.

Yeah bout the new units, its been frustrating wait for me as well, after getting everything together I will release it tonight, thats right, tonight. After testing it already I am convinced it will work, i have taken the responsibility of adjusting the stats myself.

Heres de following approved and final list:
Khwarazmian cavalry with bow, lance and axe
Kataphraktoi with bow
Klibanophori shock troopers
Slav Infantry javelin men
Serbian Brigands
Croatian Brigands
Magyar Cavalry
Pecheneghorsearcher
Monk assassin
Ghazi Cavalry
anything more than this is a bonus........

A special favour Galestrum can u adjust the stats so that Magyar cavalry become the Hungarian faction leaders unit in the early period, after that royal knights take over in the high and late period. I have already set the Nag's stats for this u only need to adjust the stats for the royal knights selection as the faction leader.

KurnoustheHunter

04-29-2003, 07:57

Heya Guys

I'm very excited about about these mod's Kataphraktoi my thinking is almost along the same lines as yours.

Today at work I was thinking about Byzantine modding in general. I wanted to make them as realistic as possible.

Here are some of my thoughts

a) Limit Tagmata units to regions and/or special buildings.
My thought process led me to think up the following.

i) Kataphraktoi unit (med-hvy Cav with bow-royal unit)
Constantiniople only.

ii)Klib unit in Rum only (doesn't make much sense but
wasn't Rum the major source of horse for Byzantines?)
Anyway I have decided after reading Kataphratoi's
post that Nicea is much more appropriate and is more
representive of history.

iii)Tagmatic (or Imperial) Skutatoi unit is Anatolia
only. (basically excellent spearmen unit)

b) Use the militia buildings for Byzantines
Level 1 - Theme Training ground
Level 2 - Theme Base
Level 3 - Tagmata Base

This would then lead to requirements for Theme units such as Byzantine Cav, and Thematic Skutatoi (slightly better then Feudal Sgts - 5/0/0/2/0) etc

What this would do is make the theme and Tagmata systems an option however the infrustrature to rebuild would be great, take quite a while (in addition to normal building requirments) AND the fact that you have to take them from Modded Turks. Again I had the idea to mod them in early to have Anatolia and others.

Just some idea's I'm throwing around.

Looking forward to more idea's and responses

Mike

kataphraktoi

04-29-2003, 13:00

With Skutatoi I limited them to Asia Minor not a specific region although I did give bonuses to Skutatois trained in Anatolia. Asia Minor was a major source of excellent soldiers so i decided agaisnt limiting it to one region.

Also for Varangians Guards I limited them to the Crimea and Constantinople and gave a bonus for Crimean trained Guards.

I don;'t mind requirements taking a long time to fulfill as long as they are set in an earlier time than 1087, eg. 1081 the year Alexius Comnenus became Emperor or even earlier like the 889 mod.

Oh yeah I added Rus native infantry with polearms/halberdiers, I think that the Halberdiers untsi they have is just ridiculous so I made an indigenous Russian infantry, they are guardsmen, with the same fierceness as the Varangians they however disadvantaged by having no armour.

kataphraktoi

04-29-2003, 13:05

Nicaea would of been an ideal place to train troops, its closeness to the center ensured they kept in touch with innovations, their distance too from the frontiers also meant that the annual arab raids rarely damaged or effected them although arab naval raids did effect the coastal areas.
On the other hand frontier troops in Anatolia were much more tougher and rugged, Anatolia in this case a perfect training ground for Skutatoi.

Galestrum's idea of making Byzantine troops expensive is an excellent idea, I did it too to MTW, I doubled the price and made the starting treasury at 2000 florins.

KurnoustheHunter

04-30-2003, 05:18

A quick Question for you guys, the byzantine experts that you are.

At the very start of the standard game in early (1091?) what is the historical situation of the byzantines?

It seems as though they have too much territory especially in Asia Minor.

Wouldn't the armenian states, Rum and Anatolia be turkish as well as Antioch?

what do u guys have in your own mods?

thanks for any help,

Mike

kataphraktoi

04-30-2003, 12:01

In 1091 the Byzantines had just defeated the Pechenegs at the battle of Levunium, a decisive battle taking the Pechenegs out of the Balkan equation for at least 30 yrs.

Byzantium still maintained most of the Balkans with Croatia the only vassal breaking away.

In Asia Minor the Byzantines had outposts on the coast and in the pontine city of Trebizond.

For my "mod" I don;t consider it a mod in the sense of a MTW mod, I gave Nicaea, Anatolia, Rum, Trebizond, Armenia, Georgia, Antioch, Edessa, Syris, Tripoli, Jerusalem to the Turks, Lesser Armenia was under independent Armenia princelings so therefore free.

if u do choose to start in the default date 1087 Antioch was in Byzantine hands albeit independent Byzantine separatist hands. In 1084 Antioch fell to the Turks.

kataphraktoi

04-30-2003, 12:03

update I got problems uploading files onto my server....

kataphraktoi

04-30-2003, 13:22

Links

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/CroatianBrigands.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/KhwarazmianCavalry.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Klibanophoriarcher.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Klibanophoriuniqueunit.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Monk.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/Rusguardsmen.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/SerbianBrigands.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/SlavInfantry.zip

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/pechenegnoble.zip

Klibanophoriarcher is for someone else who requested it.

KurnoustheHunter

04-30-2003, 13:59

Wow Kata

You handicap the Byzantines THAT MUCH???

I thought that they still held Nicaea and perhaps Trebizond. I knew that Georgia and Anatolia are just CA's flights of fancy...but geeezzzz.

So let me get this straight....

Starting early period....Byzantines had as far as I can gather...

1. Constantinople (no brainer)
2. Bulgaria (Which should really be very rebellious)
3. Serbia
4. Nicaea (which u gave to the turks&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
5. Greece (perhaps Normans still held it in reality?)
6. Naples
7. the islands (crete and one other? perhaps cyprus?)
8. Trebizond?

Anymore?

Perhaps it would be more useful to define Asia Minor and bordering middle eastern states, in terms of what was 'independent' turk, and egyptian. It seems Antioch and Armenia can be made independent.

Perhaps I should just wait for the mod. I'm most interested (At the moment at least) in a general Byzantine 'enhancement' mod without going back in time.

Just one other question. What files do I need to mod to actually have a new series of buildings?

basically the same as the TOWN_WATCH series of buildings but distinctly byzantine. I know Crusader_uni_prod13 (or similar file) has the building sets but I suspect other files would need to be modded if possible (at least to establish a relationship with the building Graphic.

For now
TOWN_WATCH1 "Town watch" will serve as "Theme Training Ground"
TOWN_WATCH2 "Town Guard" will serve as "Theme Base
TOWN_WATCH3 "Town militia" will serve as "Tagmata Base
TOWN_WATCH4 "County militia" will serve as "Tagmata HQ"

or something similar. Tommorow I'll post my idea's on how to implement the Thematic and Tagmatic System if anyone at all is interested

Till then take care everyone and I hope all goes well (including all those Uni assignments)

As a side note I graduated this evening *YAY* *sigh* I miss the place. Live it up whilst you can

again thank you all for this great thread and take care,

Mike

kataphraktoi

04-30-2003, 16:10

Well Kurnous thats how decisive Manizkert was....

Here are the provinces of the Byzantines in the early period:

Constantinople
Crimea (Cherson and Theodosia) important Byzantine outpost strategically and economically
Bulgaria (fairly settled despite pre-1071 rebellions)
Serbia (kept under vassalage)
Naples I made it rebellious to represent internal Norman problems, in 1071 Bari fell that was the last part of byzantine italy, after that Byzantium never had a permanent foothold in Italy. Giving Naples to Byzantium is an obvious error.
Greece Norman wars haven;t started yet so still in Byzantine hands.
Crete, Rhodes and Cyprus still in byzantine hands
Trebizond represents the Pontic region, sicne most of it was in Turkish hands it seemed appropiate to give it to them.
Nicaea was the Seljuk captial of the SUltanate of Rum how could I not give it to them?
Oy yeah I gave the Turks a fleet, Emir Chaka of Smyrna used them in the 1080's to raid Byzantine islands posing a threat to Constantinople and its fleet.

This is a big handicap but one in which victory is possible, I tried it a lot of times and if u are a wise crafty greek u may earn glory from a hopelss situation.

Hint: build a strong formidable army of 2 royal units good number of byzantine infatry, archers and horse archers under a damn good general, invade Nicaea and wait for a defensive battle in which a Turkisj army 2-3 times the size of urs will try to defeat u. If u succeed and crush the Turks in Nicaea the whole od Asia Minor is at ur mercy, basically a Manizkert in reverse...........

I crushed the Turks in Nicaea and swooped upon Anatolia and Trebizond quickly and pushed my borders to Rum and Armenia in no time.

Reality bites.......

I'm not involved in the buildings requirements stuff, discuss that with Galestrum......modding units is already confusing me enuff.....w

I kept everything normal, the current is ok, with the tagmatic units I only added extra cost and building requrements for the klib....

I still have to upload ghazi cavalry, I got problems trying to get that file online. man that ghazi cavalry is a pain on the battle field.

kataphraktoi

05-02-2003, 19:15

yo Galestrum u got de files yet????

I got everyfile online cept the Ghazi cav got some probs with that, should be online sometime this week.

kataphraktoi

05-02-2003, 19:18

A note Kurnous, i recommend the Tagmata be produced in 1 or 2 provinces.

my dog stinks

KurnoustheHunter

05-05-2003, 09:08

Hey Kataphraktoi,

I just completed my 'mod'. its playable but alittle on the dodgy side.

My tagmatic infantry can only be built in Anatolia.
The Klib's (Which I enhances from my previous version a touch) can only be produced in Nicaea.

The Kata's can only be produced in Constantinople.

Thematic infantry (i.e slightly upgraded Feudal Sgt, Urban Militia and archers) can only be produced in asia minor.

As a side note, did a Kataphraktos actually carry lance bow and shield into battle? Just an important question so i can be accurate with my version (Which has lance and bow but no shield at the moment).

Anyway thanks for all the help guys.

cheers,

Mike

kataphraktoi

05-05-2003, 13:25

There are Kataphractos lancers and kataphractos archers,a composite lance and bow Kataphractos is more a product of military manuals than actually practice, although I wouldn;t rule them out and there are cavalrymen who are quite capable of using both weapons.

komninos

05-08-2003, 13:17

Hi kataphraktoi,

I think I can manage to get sutch a unit out. I need to do a drastic change to the Version of Unit-Tool I am using now. I need a unit like that for armenian light cavalry used in my Persian wars. They used compisit bows from a distance, charged with lances, and then fought it out with axes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif - neet isn't it??? -
I will introduce a charging weapon to the Exel file and see what happens from there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

kataphraktoi

05-10-2003, 13:40

Komninos I already made those mods, Kurnous was talking bout the actual Byzantine cavalry units.

I had a Kataphraktoi unit with Shortbow and lance and quite happy with it.

komninos

05-12-2003, 06:48

Well ... we have to wait for the VI ... they are changing soem parts of the Unit file and all has to be re built. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
They had two or three medium cavalry units the problem is they changed them in time so you can't be 100% OK. And with the fall of Constantimupol they introduced the Latinikon which were western kights.

Any way I have to make a zip with my slingers to complement the Byz army.

Galestrum

05-15-2003, 18:44

hey guys, i havent gotten VI yet, and after looking at all the units and stuff they added, i wanna get VI and add those units and see what else they changed before i release the mod, just wanted to let you all know I havent forgotten about this.

later fellas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

komninos

05-16-2003, 09:24

I have made an exelent map for the East ... it is realy big and for a different period than MTG (A mod of mine looking at 450BC) But I can't parse it corectly (LMM crashes) I can get it to work a realy nice campaign in the east can be made

KurnoustheHunter

05-16-2003, 10:46

HI guys,

Got the expansion. Seems quite cool though limited as for improving the normal game.

Two Questions. Where do Byzantine Lancers come into the scheme of things? Are they really Thematic Cav, or plainly the lance armed Kata's (As opposed to kata's really being like Klibs?) damn got to go. cyas

kaaskop

05-16-2003, 11:12

hey you mind if i punch in a little question ,you
seem to be the right guys to ask .

on a war site i came across Kataphraktoi on armoured camels. Is this a unit the byzantines actually used
on a regular basis ? It woul be a very cool unit
altough incredibly slow

ick_of_pick

05-17-2003, 05:15

Hi guys, i havnt been here in a while, but im also very interested in the Byzantine Empire, and acctually had some Byz units already, products of some of my other byz loving friends...they include da klivs (heavily armoured horse archers with swords i think, they look like a cross between a boyar and a kata), hoplites (which i question), immortals (which i question even more), Trapeziowhatsits (they're like spannish jinetts), Skutkatoi (tough peasants), Mentavaoti (pikemen), and maybe some more, but i cant remember, my e-mail is rickeshoo@hotmail.com i can send them to you to take a look at cause i have problems uploading...

ick

KurnoustheHunter

05-17-2003, 16:08

First of all, to finish off my last post.

I believe I originally asked where Byzantine Lancers came in the scheme of things in reality. Interesting unit in the game though. Decent support for Byzantine Cavalry and good light/medium (better then mounted sgts), though I wonder if players will use them as the far superior Latin knights are available, with a VERY handy valour bonus in Nicaea.

My second question is how people feel about Armoured spearmen not being given to Byzantium. I developed my own Skutatoi, Thematic being 5/0/0/2/0, Basically a slightly armoured spearmen or more accurately +1 def. +1 Arm. on top of Feudal Sgts.

Now I see Armoured Spearmen, and their look doesn't look that dissimilar to what I imagine Skutatoi (especially thematic) would have looked like. I feel that Byzantium may have been ripped off. However I always have the option to remedy this problem now that I know how to Mod.

Again much thanks to Kataphraktoi I will make them a seperate unit in Crusaders_unit_prod11 file and of course make them available in Asia Minor only with the edition of a Level 2 Town watch and level 1 armourer. This will help keep Byzantium "in balance" whilst providing some extra "realism" i.e. If byzantium does recapture and re-develop asia minor then it would have been able to again build thematic units though I'm not sure if they would have?

This would make an interesting point of speculation. After Menzkirt if the byzantine's did in the next 50-100 years drive the turks back and re-establish imperial rule, what would have happened? would they find an unwilling and demoralised population that would make recruiting and army there unfeasable? would the population be generally co-operative or fierce independent minded, though jaded and shattered? Even If say they re-established rule to a willing populace that rejoiced, then would have the byzantines CHOSEN to once again raise Infantry levies from regions like Anatolia or would they have gone the path of near all cavalry armies and/or mercenaries as they seem to have historically. Very Interesting.

But in the context of the game and in the mod, its up to the PLAYER to make these decisions so I would like to have the option. Of course if I was to give the byzantines these extra unit types I would be forced to go back and mod the expanded version of the game in the same way I did the original *mod now defunct http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif *

That would mean;
Naples- given to Sicilians
Trebizond, Georgia, Lesser Armenia and Anatolia (did i miss any?) given to the turks with substantial forces in each.

All I can think of. Oh and as another BTW to everyone out there, I tried in the Early period to give Crimea over to the Byzantines. The mod crashed. It doesn't 'belong' to anyone in the text file, not even rebels Agggghhhhh well. anyone else had success? please say so if you have

Anyway hope all goes well with everyone. Oh sorry, and in reply to ick_of_pick, please send me your units. brebrich@ihug.com.au

However I would question hoplites *GREATLY* and Immortals and Mentavaoti even more.

Anyway cya's all later,

Mike

Heraclius

05-18-2003, 15:14

Quote[/b] (KurnoustheHunter @ May 17 2003,10:08)]My second question is how people feel about Armoured spearmen not being given to Byzantium.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif I was really dissapointed. I had been looking forward to finally having a decent counter to heavy cavalry with thos armored spearmen but instead got round shield spearmen. is the only difference between a vanilla spearmen and round shield type the shield? Gah I'm angry.

komninos

05-19-2003, 10:45

Hi,

I will post the in time a set of Byzantine Units. The Byzantine infantry has been changed the good shock unit with spears and a large heavy shield, the Aligion now is transformed in to a knight, shock cavalry, using bows, maces and a lance for charging. I today I will make a swords man out of the Viking BIFs with a round Byzantine shield.

The Byzantine cavalry will be made in to light Armenian cavalry similar to the Aligion but lighter over all.

I still need to port my slingers from the original game to close it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

kataphraktoi

05-19-2003, 15:33

Hey guys anyone downloading the mods for the gale's mod make sure u use the "save target as" by right clicking.

If u click to download it you will see a page saying "sorry"

STUPID YAHOO, STUPID YAHOO

Skutatoi all the way, these fellas are the professional heavy infantry spearmen of the army, they are better than byzantine infantry because of their front rank status, they are therefore heavily armoured and armed.

the harder u make byzantium mods the better a challenge guranteed, I like hamstringing them by giving the turks the provinces which they need to train their elite units.

ick_of_pick

05-20-2003, 00:03

did you get my files? my e-mail was acting up, so im not sure if you got it, also if you got more than one...well im sorry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

ick

komninos

05-20-2003, 07:10

In MTW there is a minor error with the Byzantines. The units and the provinces given refer to the Byzantine empire at the period before Majinkert (hope I got that write). This army is different from the one used under the Komninians. (A good source for all these can be found in the fanaticus site that deals with the DBA.) The army in the MTW is the Nikeforian army they had heavy cavalry (given in MTW as Kataphracty), a multi-role thematic cavalry armed with bow, mace, and lance, and two units of heavy infantry. One really heavy front row center armed with spears and one lighter flanking armed with swords. Missiles would be archers, javeliners and slingers.

The Komninian was much simpler and cheaper. The cavalry was reduced to the thematic and only the main Skutatoi would remain (I think they named them Konti or Kondaraty – or that is for the later period???).

The Veringians were highly trained Rus mercenaries so I think I will make them only mercenary unit. Basically you can have them as long as you can have the Florins to keep them.

I will make a quick mod of the Early that the Byzantines will have all they had at 1041 but the army will be spread out. The Turks will have a huge army packed in a few provinces. I have done this for the MTW just a week ago. The result was devastating. On the first turn I got the Turks attacking me and the Egyptians with huge armies. I fought but in vain … regrouped in some inner provinces … and then the VI came out and all was lost http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif after un uninstall of the VI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif . But No problem I will have to rebuilt the tools and when that is dune I will do it again