View Full Version : How stupid is the ai
TheViking
12-17-2002, 17:44
I was in a big battle i had 4500 the enemy 16200.
The ai did as it does usually do, not good at all.
Then suddenly after the half the time limit was over and i chased away another attack the ai decided to put all the new reinforcement in one single spot, 16 units. It did that 5-6 times in a row. And that wasnt the first battle it did like that.
if it doesnt do like that it always walk back and forth infront of my shooters and get killed or it walk back and forth out of my shooters range for a long time then it walk up to my front and just stands there and get shot down.
and the strategic part is also dumb. The ai attacks allys wich make massrebellions in the country. If theres several 1000s of men outside the boarder it only attacks with few 100s if i have 1000 men. If it succed to take a territory from anyone it only let a couple of units garrison wich make it rebell next year.
This is in hard difficulty and this only a few examples
CA why havent you atleast made the ai as good as in shogun
Anyone else seen how stupid the ai is
Quote[/b] (TheViking @ Dec. 17 2002,10:44)]CA why havent you atleast made the ai as good as in shogun
Maybe because it is much better than the AI in Shogun...
Damn I have had my ass handed to me more times in MTW now that I ever did in STW, and we are talking 2 years compared to 4 months...
The AI will split up armies, it will charge and recharge with cav, it will try ambushes (I have had my worst loss due to two units of Vikings hitting my flank from an ambush), it will try to lure, it will try to fix (holding enemy units in place).
The Shogun AI could not do half of this.
Just a question, Have you patched yet Viking? I heard the AI got better about the line up to be shot at after patch. Though I personally havent patched due to a campaign Im determined to finish before I do.
But I've played many strategy games where the AI did really stupid things. I believe it was Lord of the Realms, you could set up your army, put a small unit of sword/spear type off to the side. Run up 2 archers and shoot at the enemy and lure his archers out to chase you, then swing in behind with that small unit and wipe them out. Then unleash hell on the rest of his army. Massive upgrade to that kind of AI.
Naagi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
There are times when the AI can do quite impressive stuff. I was peppering some troops on a hill with a horse-archer unit, when I watched him march two spear-units down the hill. Rather than the usual head-on approach (which wouldn't have worked due to the skirmish behavior of horse-archers), he marched them to either side of my horse-archer unit. Hmmm ... I thought ... I wonder if ... Sure enough, the two units did a 90 degree turn and attempted a pincer on my horse-archer unit (which I've done oodles of times to trap the AI's horse archer units). Fortunately for my horse-archer unit I spotted it in time and got them out of the trap, but I was impressed.
I was also impressed when his general's Byz Infantry reduced two of my 4-valor Ghazi units to 2 men each, and killed 25 of my general's 9-valor Camel Warriors. And here I was thinking he was being stupid leaving his General unit out all by it's lonesome http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Another time the AI impressed me was when I was the danish and attacked Norway. The AI had retreated to Norway when I invaded Sweden, so he had 6 units of Vikings against my slightly lesser army. When the battle started, all I saw was his General's unit, alone, out in the open. So I marched up the hill onto the plateau the General was on, preparing to do a pincer maneuver and slaughter him before the other 5 Viking units could come to his aid. While issuing orders to initiate this, I notice that a couple of my units suddenly had the crossed-swords symbol indicating combat. Well it turned out that the shrubbery I was marching past to get to the General contained his 5 extra Viking units Needless to say I lost that battle (and restarted the campaign as that fatally wounded my prospects of a Danish Empire).
These days I'm especially wary of shrubbery when I see the AI's general all by his lonesome =)
lancer63
12-18-2002, 00:37
AI is much better after patch IMO she uses it´s generals in a smarter way and front units rarely stand 20 meters from my arbies and xbows anymore. I also had my head handed over on a pike when I foolishly charged an inferior force in a forest with an almost 3:1 advantage. she still does stupid things though...so do I http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Quote[/b] (lancer63 @ Dec. 17 2002,17:37)]she still does stupid things though...so do I http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Oh yeah, we shouldn't turn this into a "I love the AI" thread. The AI is still no match for us, but at least it is faily good enough to give a challenge in SP campaigns. And that counts plenty for me.
Al Qasim Hussein
12-18-2002, 01:09
A......SHRUBBERY
The AI is ok, not noticeably different after the patch unfortunately. Its cavalry is just stronger, that's all. It still does inexplicably stupid things, especially when the human player does something off the wall. Attack it enough times with senseless strategy and you start to identify its weak points. Then the AI becomes kinda weak. But I still get in the occasional tough spot, I must admit.
ToranagaSama
12-18-2002, 01:45
The Battle/Tactical AI is simply THE BEST available at what it does
The Campaign/Strategic AI is a work in progress, as all Shogun vets know, it was sorta slapped together near the end of the Shogun's development. Hence did NOT receive proper attention. All things considered its a VERY nice piece of work Though IMHO, the Campaign AI doesn't match the Battle AI.
[The Poll should distinguish between Battle AI and Campaign AI.]
MTW v. STW, the Battle AI has noticeable improvements making for a more challenging battle. The first that comes to mind is that in Shogun the AI army ALWAYS comes from the direction your army is facing when the battle map pops up.
In MTW, that will NOT always be the case. At least on Expert, the AI army can come from ANY direction and you need to pick your ground to try and "force" the AI to attack your strength and place your units so that they can be QUICKLY adjusted to meet the direction of the AI while not "tiring" them out.
That's just one improvement their are a couple of others.
Regarding the Strategic AI, improvements are far less noticeable and nothing immediately comes to mind. MUCH improvement in this area will be VERY welcome.
STW v. MTW, personally, and discounting many Campaign improvements, the nature of the Shogun/Japanese terrain, in addition to the "Island" Map Shape and small number of provinces lends for a more "strategic" maneuvering. The STW map had more choke points and more "Important"/Strategic provinces, one word: Shiano
There's no Shiano in MTW; and while there are (as in STW) several Strategically important "Income" provinces, the UNDERDEVELOPED sea trade and sea warfare minimizes the "fun" factor involved with having, taking and holding these provinces. Sea trade/war need serious attention
In conlclusion, on the whole the battle AI can still stand as a challenge into the next TW with some minor improvement; but the Campaign AI, Sea Trade/War, Terrain and Campaing Map design s/b prioritorized for the next TW.
Doing so would make, overall, for a much more intriguing and game (and additional Diplomatic options would complete things).
Im happy with the AI.It is certainly an improvement over shogun and I mean no disrespect to shogun .Im not very techy but as far as I know the AI is one of the hardest parts of making a game.Out of curiosity can any one name a similar game that has a better AI than MTW or at least cpmparable.I ve played quite alot of rts games and frankl;y most of them them are: lets bunch up over here and attack this other bunch.(very few good rts type games around)
Dont get me wrong,I think there is room for lots of improvement in the AI part of the game, but in MHO we have to be patient and let the series develope.Could the AI and MTW in general have been better than it is,well ,yes of course it could of ,if it sold like the sims:)(pleae dont flame me for using the S word)
As long as each new total war makes improvements on its predecessor then I will be a happy chap.
"waves" later folks
I find I can pretty much match the AI as far as stupidity on the battlefield. I find the AIs battle tactics now to be pretty good - certainly I am much more serious about setting up for a big battle than I used to be in STW - And more often than not the AI frustrates my attempts at quick attacks - I have to chase them all over the map and by the end of this my army is routing and spread all over the place. On more than one occassion the AI has crashed into my flanks with such ferosity that half my army turns - other times he holds back units just until all mine are engaged and then pokes me in the ass with cavalry - if the AI was better than you youd be crying that it was impossible to beat
TheViking
12-18-2002, 08:02
Thanks for all votes and replys.
I have patched the game and im always playingn on hard.
Heres another stupid thing from the the ai:
Denmark attacks me in Sweden. I have to defend with woodmen, first type archers halberds 2nd type of spearmen and pronois. the danish army rout all of my men exept 1 single pronoi whos chasing some enemy archers, 1 of my archers are fighting a chiv knight, 2 other archers are shooting, dont know on who. rest of my men are routing.
The ai have much more superior units then i have, and suddenly the ai decides to withdraw all his men, he dont have any as reinforce. And i won the day.
Why the hell did he withdrew his men when he wopped my ass and chasing the rest.
I still thinks the ai really sucks and i compare it only with the shogun games.
But i still thinks that MTW is among the best 10 games i ever played and ive been playing for 18 years now,
Spetulhu
12-18-2002, 08:06
It's a lot better since the patch. If the AI has any shock troops like heavy cavalry or infantry it will try to use them too. It won`t sit around being shot at but charge into the fray, forcing your missilers to move or die.
I think the AI does a pretty good job considering all of the possibilities it needs to take into consideration. Naturally, it can be exploited- but it is an AI, not a real person.
Compared to other games in the genre I'd say the AI is better than most of what is available and alot of what is coming down the pipe. (although WarriorKings:Battles is making some pretty amazing claims about its AI)
Hi Xiahou,warrior kings the original made some exciting claims b4 it was released.I followed this game for about 3 months b4 it was due for release.I was very dissapointed when I got the game home.
DoggFood
12-18-2002, 09:01
In battle the comp does good but they never win because I always have better troops but not as many as the comp. The comp on tatical map always builds as many troops as it can while I build the best army I can.
Lord Romulous
12-18-2002, 12:22
a good or bad ai is the most critical factor for me in deciding wether i buy a game or not. graphics are good but it is the ai that keeps you playing time and time again.
in mtw the ai is one of the best i have seen in a similar genre game so far. combat mission also has a superb ai. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
TheViking
12-18-2002, 21:41
I only want you to compare the ai of MTW with the shogun games.
why you may ask?
In my opinion theres no other games ai that are near the ai of the TW games, exept 2 games on playstation that are close, warhammer and dark omen.
Tanks again
Spetulhu
12-18-2002, 22:39
Although, now that I think about it, there`s a rather odd thing the AI tries to pull off. When you`re defending the AI will try to get a flank attack on the troops in your outermost line, which might be a good manuever. Except this leaves it wide open for a flanking attack from your second line?
You want REAL ai, then go online.
TheViking
12-19-2002, 01:05
Ted i am an online player. and theres no ai online. its against other humans and a much more greater challenge. I know all that, but i still want to play campains every now and then and want a better ai to fight against.
terryblack825
12-19-2002, 04:42
I guess I realy suck compared to you guys but the ai seems hard enough to me.The only time i noticed something stupid occured when the ai let me surrond it before it made a move.
BatkoMahno
12-19-2002, 19:56
My opinion is that the M-TW AI is better than S-TW.
Viking have you ever tryed Close Combat III or V? That AI is nice too. I don't know if I could really compare those two.
The AI isn't all that bad IMO. It is competent enough to give a satisfactory game to most buyers.
As for comparing it to persons, well, of course anyone who has decided to marry the game, dissect it and play it constantly will do better. The AI will never be as good as an accomplished aficionado. The AI is also seldom as bad as a very poor player and I suspect many online heroes have chalked up quite a few victories over clueless rookies who were at least as easy to beat as the AI if not easier. This is an aspect of MP that doesn't get much press. Not every battle is a clash of titans. I have heard many times how "The best players are online." I'll bet some of the worst are too. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Spetulhu
12-19-2002, 22:26
Like the guy who uses five minutes to contemplate a single move when playing the Classic BattleTech board game?
Lion King
12-19-2002, 23:05
the MTW most lacking AI feature IMO is learning, the computer should adapt to player strategies if he uses them too often, the close combat games featured this quite nicely
LordKhaine
12-22-2002, 04:59
Better than average overall. I find the AI in MTW better than Shogun really, except maybe in some battles (when the MTW AI often hesitates when attacking)
solypsist
12-22-2002, 23:54
you gotta admit the AI is better than most, I could only imagine how easy this game would be if we were still on the old Command & Conquer intelligence model.
considering how much there is to work with, the AI in MTW is much better than STW. but then who knows if there were any changes in programming to improve the AI when the game engine was moved.
TheViking
12-23-2002, 00:01
I admit that Soly, and in my opinion the TW series have the best ai this far.
But as you can see in the poll I compare MTW with STW/MI
Katasaki Hirojima
12-24-2002, 08:19
The AI sometimes catch me off gaurd, something STW rarely did. Thats enough for me to put it up over STW. SUre htye do NEW stupid things, but I'v actually lost pitched battles and DEFENSES, something that never ever happened to me in STW.
Sandy-San
12-24-2002, 15:21
unlike STW:MI, i haven't noticed the AI trying different army compositions, different tactics etc when attacking the same province several times over - in STW if it failed to take my province one year with spears, he'd be back the next with cav, or so it seemed.
Sandy-San
12-28-2002, 12:18
oh and this one gets better....
the french decide to assault my castle - yay i think, coz i've never seen that before, but boo coz i've only got 200 men to his 1200, and most of his are knights. i'm screwed, i figure.
so anyway, the french bombards breach my walls in two places, up trots the french, into the outerwall... and they sit there... while the castle defences slowly cut them to pieces....
The AI brought some archers in that were trying to shoot the few men i had, but by tucking them right alongside the inside of the inner wall, he can't hit them. eventually time runs out, i've lost 4 men - 2 to missiles, 2 to me getting bored and deciding to chase off some knights with my billmen. his losses are displayed as 2, those lost to the castle defences aren't shown.
I was pretty glad to have held the castle, but just how crap can the AI get rubbish. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Divine Wind
12-31-2002, 19:37
Quote[/b] (Sandy-San @ Dec. 28 2002,05:18)]oh and this one gets better....
the french decide to assault my castle - yay i think, coz i've never seen that before, but boo coz i've only got 200 men to his 1200, and most of his are knights. i'm screwed, i figure.
so anyway, the french bombards breach my walls in two places, up trots the french, into the outerwall... and they sit there... while the castle defences slowly cut them to pieces....
The AI brought some archers in that were trying to shoot the few men i had, but by tucking them right alongside the inside of the inner wall, he can't hit them. eventually time runs out, i've lost 4 men - 2 to missiles, 2 to me getting bored and deciding to chase off some knights with my billmen. his losses are displayed as 2, those lost to the castle defences aren't shown.
I was pretty glad to have held the castle, but just how crap can the AI get rubbish. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I suggest not playing the game on easy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Sandy-San
01-06-2003, 12:15
it was on normal, thanks YFI.
ToranagaSama
01-06-2003, 13:45
Quote[/b] (Sandy-San @ Jan. 06 2003,06:15)]it was on normal, thanks YFI.
I suggest not playing the game on Normal. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Sandy-San
01-06-2003, 16:17
yes, yes, very funny you two... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
the point was they didn't even try and approach the breach, just stood there getting shot. which made me think it must be some sort of path-finding fault.
obviously on expert the french knights would have changed into their best combat fatigues, split up to cover either side of the breach, chucked a couple of flashbangs through the gate as a diversion and then stormed the breach using smoke grenades for cover. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'm pleased with the AI although I can sometimes see it make strange mistakes. One easy improvement would be to make it more defensive when defending its provinces. Usually when I attack its province I will take up defensive positions and let the enemy come to me, shower them with arrows while they often wait and then finish them up.
But just as I get comfortable with this strategy I find that some enemies, particularly Novgorod in my experience, charge at my arches with light cavalry to force them through my infantry lines and then charge with their own infantry while my archers and infantry are messed up. The AIs use of catapults in bridge battles is also pretty ingenious, smashing large formations of my troops while they're clustered on a small spot. MTW has in general forced me to learn a little more than I did in Shogun so I now flank more effectively and sometimes split my forces succesfully.
When I got Alpha Centauri some years ago there was a cd in the box with a teaser for Shogun, which was then in the making. It promised amazing revolutionary AI which would learn from the players and adapt its strategies accordingly forever after, thus becoming stronger and stronger as the game was played more. The AI would therefore be different on each computer as it would have learned different things and players could send their killer AI to fellow players. Seems like the marketing department got a little overambitious.
Cazbol
Theodoret
01-06-2003, 23:49
I sometimes wonder if the AI isn't emulating my tactics. Certainly on the strategic map the various factions seem to behave a lot differently to the way they behaved when I first got the game (maybe I'm just paranoid).
TheViking
01-07-2003, 17:21
Quote[/b] (Divine Wind @ Dec. 31 2002,18:37)]
Quote[/b] (Sandy-San @ Dec. 28 2002,05:18)]oh and this one gets better....
the french decide to assault my castle - yay i think, coz i've never seen that before, but boo coz i've only got 200 men to his 1200, and most of his are knights. i'm screwed, i figure.
so anyway, the french bombards breach my walls in two places, up trots the french, into the outerwall... and they sit there... while the castle defences slowly cut them to pieces....
The AI brought some archers in that were trying to shoot the few men i had, but by tucking them right alongside the inside of the inner wall, he can't hit them. eventually time runs out, i've lost 4 men - 2 to missiles, 2 to me getting bored and deciding to chase off some knights with my billmen. his losses are displayed as 2, those lost to the castle defences aren't shown.
I was pretty glad to have held the castle, but just how crap can the AI get rubbish. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I suggest not playing the game on easy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
That have happend to me too many times in hard and even in expert.
The AI is totally stupid
kaasbris
01-07-2003, 21:25
Did MTW's AI learn from my strategy? Then that means I am hopelessly stupid http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
There is no such thing as real AI because it hasn't even been invented yet. The only thing they can do right now to simulate learning is to make the comp move more forces to a location it knows you like to attack from or tech up quickly to a counter to a unit you like to tech up quickly too.
You know, if you would install the Wes mod, you would be much happier with the AI. The AI builds much better quality troops and builds his econ, including trade, up much better. With those better troops, the fighting is a lot closer to being even. Instead of having a kill ratio of 5-10, I am now closer to 2-3. Try it, you'll like it.
Hakonarson
04-25-2003, 01:55
So what's hte WES mod and where is it?
Here is a link. There is a substantial readme that is also available that lists all the changes made and how to install the mod.
http://wes.apolyton.net/Medmod_IV_1.84.exe
"if the AI was better than you youd be crying that it was impossible to beat."
Not me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I'd love it if the AI could whip my ass once in a while. The battlefield AI is reasonable - for AI. It sucks compared with an experienced player, but that's o.k. I've had some very enjoyable battles, and that's what counts. I hope CA will continue to work on this aspect for future games, but even if they don't the current product is reasonably good.
It's the strategic AI that needs work - especially diplomacy.
In tactical battle, AI can be really challenging if they have the right troops mix to counter mine. In a few cases, AI can even cause big damage with their weaker troops mix.
AI still do strange or stupid things but it's above average in general (it's pretty good in expert difficulty).
It still doesn't empire build properly, it never defends its provinces properly. If you use the reveal map cheat you can see quite how appauling it is.
A slight veer in subject matter, but what I'd like to see is for TW to have a few different sets of AI.
Different Generals could then use different types of AI, meaning that you'd have to tailor your game not only to opposing troops and terran but also to your opponent.
The AI could vary simply in quality (ie a 1-star general would use inferior AI compared to a 9-star general), but also truly different tactics based on V&V and/or nationality and available troops.
I really would like to see a 9-star Mongol general use a different AI set from a 1-star peasant uprising general http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Perhaps something like this could be implemented in RTW, who knows.
i think the stategic ai only survives because it gets to move last. if campaign map moves were in random order i would have an easier time.
the battlefield ai it good enough for me as it is.
Portuguese Rebel
06-10-2003, 23:39
AI learning is a very hard thing to do. Specially in a complex game like MTW. You could progrom the AI to , lets say, record army compositions and figure out, after a certain number of battles, wich army compositon have the most succesful record against the human. Championship Manager series does this kind of thing (you play with a given tactic and the computer records the results with diferent tacticsto see wich is best against you). In the battlefield the AI could calculate wich manouvers had more success (infantry charges, cavalary charges, skirmish battle, etc.) and start using it more. But this is about it. It can't come up with new tactics and if you adapt your style the AI must recalculate everything again.
Bottom line, speaking is easy, getting a real AI is not.
Some of the so-called stupidities of the AI may actually be due to the vices and virtues of the AI general. For example, I was attacked by the Mongol Khan's army with the usual mix of Mongol Heavy Cav, Horse Archers, and a couple of infantry. I had superior numbers, including archers, spearmen and several Armenian Heavy Cav plus horse archers, but a zero level general. I was fairly confident because there were a lot of woods to hide in, and my spears were billmen and halbediers. Turns out I was overconfident, but still won the battle because the Mongol Khan had a weak attack vice and an overcautions vice.
The Mongol calvary routed my Armenian Heavies, and then routed my spears (in the woods even). The Mongol horse archers chased my routed units of the map. I screwed up by being impatient and sending my Heavy Cav in too soon, and not giving my archers more time to shoot. One of my worst peformances - I know better. But I still won.
My reinforcements arrived, and I was able to set up a weak defense with 1 Viking, 1 Ghazi, and 1 Mamluk Cav hiding in some woods on the edge of the map. The Mongols should have slaughtered them, but they just set up in the woods they had just captured from me and waited. Since I was the defender I won the battle on the time-out.
Of course I extremely surprised and pertubed, so I checked the Khan's vices and virtues, and then I understood. The weak attack and over-cautious vices stopped the Khan from pressing the attack. The AI's battle tactics were good enough to beat me, but this TW game is much more complicated than before - thus some of the strange situations that seem to arise. I now make sure to check my own generals battle related vices and virtues before any attack.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.