Regional/Faction restriction of elite units

[WesW]

When I play a campaign, I always seem to grow bored and quit it after I have a couple dozen provinces under control, since you are able to churn out so many units each turn that you can roll over everyone else.

What I want to do is to give each faction unique elite units, and restrict these units to the starting provinces of each faction. This would be a way of capping the escalation of power that occurs in all conquest-type games and makes the last 2/3's of the game unchallenging.

The units that would be restricted would include knights, obviously, and probably MAA. After that, though, things get a little murkier in regards to militia units, which I favor including, and light cav, spears and missiles, which I am leaning against at this time.

What I am looking for is feedback on which units to restrict, how much to restrict them, and suggestions on what units to add to the game for these unique units.
Of course, it may be that the whole idea is flawed, so I would like to hear any thoughts on the concept itself.

I would like to discuss this and decide upon everything by the time VI comes out next month, so that I can include this concept to the Medmod IV v2 for VI.
So, what do you guys think?

[Brutal DLX]

Basically a good idea, but I wouldn't like to enforce it so strictly. How about only being able to train Catholic units in Europe and Muslim units in Asia Minor and N.Africa, as well as Byzantine and Russian units in their historical spheres of influence?
That being said, the basic units like archers, Urban militia and spearmen should be available anywhere...

[Div Hunter]

I think it would be a good idea to restrict all the units to the provinces they historically came from. Except perhaps units like the Varangian guard which would still be unique to the Byz. This would make some provinces very attractive and much more important than simple resource value.

[ShadesWolf]

AS an additional help for your campaign, Why not do a story to add a little spice - ie the reign of your empire

It takes a long time to do, but it helps you plan a strat, instead of attack, attack attack.

It is quite interesing to set yourself target and watch characters grow, ie your king, princes, generals etc, then by giving them titles, it really means something......

MY strat was England and the story of John I. It is really enjoyable, seeing that you have a plan to conqueror Scotland, and when you fail, it then takes a another 20 years to fulfil that action, as you get invaded due to the fact of your failure.....

It worked for me anyway.....

MY next campaign/ story will be about the Turks.....

[econ21]

Interesting idea, Wes. I tend to quit at about the same point as you, as I don't find it fun taking over the map when you are obviously far ahead. Thinking about the historical basis of your idea, one spin on what you are saying is that - for example - the British Empire was limited by the number of native British troops available. This seems very plausible to me and helps explain why empires usually could not get too big in real life. Eventually they will have to rely on foreign born troops who will usually not be so motivated to fight for an oppressor. One way to implement it would be to confine a faction's "core" troops to their own lands but give them access to poorer quality "foreign" troops they could recruit anywhere.

As to what constitutes the "core", I would start by looking at what units players include in their high/late main armies. Taking a Catholic faction as an example, I would guess this includes knights, men-at-arms/halberdier types, chiv spears, arbalests and elite unique units like longbows. So I would restrict all these. Non-native units would be designated "poor" quality and so have worse stats.

But I am not sure how feasible it would be to do this is in MTW, as there are limits on the total number of units. If you started creating "English knights" etc x10 or so factions, you'll hit that limit fairly swiftly. Maybe you can mod some buildings so that only one can be built per faction - eg like the War Academy for the Turks? That way you would not have to fill up your units file with duplicate units. This would work for true elites like knights and maybe some of the other core units I mentioned. Unique faction units you could restrict to one province.

[Praylak]

I would like to second Brutal's suggestion as it sounds logical and realistic.

[BDC]

I think the whole units being specific to regions is good. After all, the Normans didn't have Longbowman when they took England but in later years they were very dangerous weapons, exploited by the Normans' ancestors.

[Swordsman]

I kinda like a "hybrid" idea of:

1. Faction-unique units tied to either one or a small number of provinces; and
2. "Elite" units (Chiv Knights, etc.)tied to buildings that are made "unique". For example, make the Royal Courts unique and tie elite unit production to them. Not sure where to draw the line on "elite", however.

This would discourage cranking out multiple stacks of armies with mostly elite/unique units in them. You would really have to think about where you wanted to commit your precious-few elite units (as in real life).

Shouldn't be able to have an army where "everyone is just a little bit better than average". http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[WesW]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

Simon, I thought that some of the guys in the Dungeon had found that you could add an almost infinite amount of new units to the game? Admittedly, as you point out, you could use up a hundred slots pretty quickly, though. This approach would also greatly increase the size of the mod, too, because of all the graphics needed, even if they are simply copies of existing files.

The idea of unique buildings would seem to be a better way, though I may have to set down and think it through completely.

One other thing I just thought of- how about restricting common elite units like knights to certain provinces. Knights would be available in at least one province for each faction, but other than that they would be restricted to flatlands like France. Common Pikes would be restricted to hilly and/or mountainous regions like the Alps.
You could add a few additional variations of units tied to different regions, like pikemen with extra armour in the steppes for protection against Mongol arrows; knights with better speed but less armour in Spain and Italy to better combat Muslims and withstand desert heat.
You may be able to combine this approach with unique buildings and be able to achieve the desired effect with only a couple dozen new units and some new buildings.

[Hamburglar]

I think this is a good idea. Even if we can't get the advanced stuff going yet, I think restricting the highpower Catholic and Muslim units to their own spheres of influence would be a good idea.

For Catholics, Knights, Men at Arms, and the upper Sergeants such as Chiv and Gothic should be only available in Europe, no farther Eastward than Poland and Hungary. For Muslims I'd put units like Ghulams, Kwarzimians, Ottoman Siphis, Nizaris, Hashishin, Saracens etc only available in Africa, Spain, and Asia Minor.


Also, as for making the Royal Court buildings "unique", I think restricting knights to a single province is a little much. If you could jsut make like 3 royal court buildings and call them each something different and have them all unique, then maybe that'd be a good idea. But perhaps only for the "upper" knights. I think Feudal Knights should be able to come from everywhere - I see them as the local rich men that have been given titles - they really should be able to come from everywhere that you own since you do divy up provinces among your nobility. For example, if you take over Flanders you would make Lord Otto von Griefen or whoever Duke of Flanders but then he'd divide up the land into dozens of little provinces which he gives to different noblemen so I can see there being enough "knights" anywhere to be able to call up a unit of them.

[Swordsman]

Agree. I'm a pretty basic-level modder, but what I did was lower building requirements for FK's to a palace, and made the courts unique. This is probably not the cleanest solution, but seems to work pretty well in test camapigns. Of course, I also changed other stuff to tie units more to castle levels as has been suggested in other threads. I really like the concept though.

Speaking of building requirements, anyone besides me find the need to have various Armoury levels kind of a double-whammy? EX: CK's-- already heavily armoured, but you (in unmodded game) can't build without an extra 3 points of armour. Just seems to me you should be able to build units at their basic stats, and armour upgrades should be optional (like Metalsmith).

[Hamburglar]

Yeah I think thats a good idea too - because then the AI's will be able to reach certain units easier. I think all the armourers should be for is just to add extra armor like Swordsman said.

[insolent1]

Its a good idea but the AI will suffer as its not the human player who looses there home provinces that much but the AI does all the time. Sounds like u would face armies of pesants at the end pretty much like the real game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[insolent1]

Swordsman ur right needin armouries to build units is stupid as it restricts there use in the desert but u would have to be mad to use chiv knights in the desert, feudals would be cool though as their base armour is 5.

[NewJeffCT]

Well, I don’t know how restrictive I would be. I am currently playing as Egypt and have not expanded my empire in the Middle East too much, other than Cyrencia, Tunisia and Syria due to large Almo and Byz empires on either side of me… however, in expanding my fleet, I did notice that cash cow Sweden was still under rebel control. So, I conquered them and Norway and Finland. I think if I held them long enough, I do not think it would be a problem once I convert the population to Islam to start making things like Abyssian Guards and Ghazi and Mamluks. Granted, desert archers should only be in the desert, and I do not think you could find camels in Sweden… but, I do not see a problem with building faction units in different areas.

Same thing for the Catholics. In my campaign as the Spanish a while back, I conquered the Almo and Egyptian territory pretty early on and had them almost all Catholic 98% or more. I do not see a big problem with develping feudal men at arms or chivalric sergeants for my march into the Russian territory, or to fight the Horde.

[WesW]

Thanks for the ideas and opinions. One thing I may want to point out to Jeff is that the reason I want to make this mod is to restrict faction power. I am not disagreeing with your reasoning, it's just that my aim is different. Ideally, unit availability would be tied to provincial conditions like faith and loyalty, but this is not how the game is set up, so I am trying to use what we have.

Right now, I am scanning the forums here trying to get unit names. If anyone knows of another site with lists of historical units and a short description of them, I could cretainly use it.

[WesW]

What I am working toward right now is dividing Europe into geographical zones of around ten provinces each, on average.

1)British Isles (English)
2)Western Europe (France)
3)Iberian Peninsula (Spanish/Aragonese)
4)Scandinavia (Danes)
5)Central Europe (HRE/Poles)
6)Balkans (Hungarians)
7)Southern Europe (Italians/Sicilians)
8)Russian Steppes (Russians/Kievans)

I think I have enough ideas from the forums here for the Byzants, who will recruit from approximately what they have in the early era.
The Turks will recruit from Serbia to Syria, more or less.
The Egyptians from Edessa to Morocco.
The Almohads from Aragon to Egypt.
For Muslim units that are currently available to more than one faction, I would maybe make them available in most of those factions' lands. I am not too worried about the Muslims; it's the Catholics that need to be decided upon.

For the Catholics, I would like unique versions for each region of:

Mtd Sgts and Gendarmes/Teutonic Sgts
Feudal, Chiv and Hosp/Teu knights
Feudal and Chivalric MAA, and Hosp/Gothic Foot Knights
Halberdiers
Pikemen
Feudal and Chivalric Sgts

It may turn out better to have some of those listed above be kept as general units available all over Europe to everyone, but I would like to go ahead and get as many names and descriptions as possible now, and then take stuff out as needed later on, rather than be trying to scramble to get new ones in after the mod had been posted.

Also, the regional varieties need not be carbon copies of the existing units. In fact, I think that variety would be a welcome addition.
I know that we have people visiting the forums from all over Europe who are well educated on their homeland's history, and I would especially like to hear from them.

I had worried earlier about adding a lot of new units to the game, but I read in Lord Crazy's thread that we can add up to 150. I had also worried about the mod size, then remembered that all my previous mods were divided into sections (texts, graphics, sounds, etc), and that I could use this system quite well here too. The only tricky part would be that I could not shift a lot of units around as far as their looks once I posted the mod without running the risk of making everyone get the graphics again.

So, what can you guys give me?

[Old Templar]

I think it is an excellent idea to restrict building specific units to one or two selected province per faction. Building knights only in one English province which has the royal court (only one per faction)and perhaps Jerusalem will make it much more difficult to use a large number of them when fighting in Eastern Europe. I do not know how the AI would handle this(?) - now, it seems that the AI in Europe is not expanding a lot beyond the area which may be an indication that the proposed changes may work well. Except for a few specific units, such as Longbow Archer, Vikings etc., there is historically little difference between the units produced and used in Western Europe. Let us take the Cavalry for example:
The Western Roman Empire was replaced by a number of German Kingdoms (5.Century) which used familiar Roman military practises, particularly their cavalry tactics. The area of Charlemagne's empire is considered the birthplace of the western mounted warrior or later knights. The words for cavalry soldiers or "knights" differ from country to country but mean the same -
English Knights (anglo-saxon word "cnicht")
Ritter (German)
Chevalier (French)
Cavaliere (Italian)
You could restrict the building of these units to one or two specific provinces per faction (that would make sense even historically), but their statistics for fighting and armour should be the same. Besides Knights, there were also other heavy cavalry units in Western Europe (especially early on; these horsemen could fight on foot or on horseback) and some countries had even light cavalry. Unfortunately, CA did not include such units.
There was no special "bodyguard" for the king (at least to my knowledge); he just kept some of the younger knights (sons of the lords) around him. These knights were of course better trained (doing nothing else every day but training for combat); for the game you may want to call them "Royal Cavaliere" for example, if you want to single them out.
The situation for the Russians and the Muslim factions was of course different.
I hope this helps.

Ref."Chansons De Geste", chronicles and ordinances; may be hard to get hold of.

[WesW]

Ok, here is what I have so far. I need help with northern Europe (HRE and Poles), the Balkans (Huns), and the Russians. I feel pretty good about the rest, though if I have some units misplaced I am certainly open to suggestions there as well.

Courts will be unique, restricting knights to capital provinces, unless, possibly, you occupy intact the courts of a rival faction who uses the same troop types (French and English, Spanish and Aragonese, Italians and Sicilians).
Foot knights will be likewise restricted to Chapterhouses, which are also unique.
All other units can be built in any of the faction's home provinces, more (Danes) or less (HRE).

1)Balkans- Huns
Putza Riders- Horse Archers- Mtd. Sgts.
Magyar Cavalry- Teutonic Sgts
Hungarian Feudal & Chiv Kns- in Hungary
Winged Kns- Lancers- in Hungary
Hungarian militia- nothing new
Hungarain swords- nothing new
Hungarian spears- nothing new

2)Scandinavia- Danes
Nordic Raiders- Mtd Sgts.
Nordic Mauraders- Teutonic Sgts.
Danish Feudal, Chiv & Gothic Kns- nothing new
Bondi- FMAA- better attack, lower armour, AP
Huscarls- CMAA- better attack, lower armour, AP
Housecarls- Ft. Kn.- better attack, lower armour, AP
Berserkers- current Vikings- Nordic Ghazis
No militia available since the vikings come from general populace
Nordic spears- nothing new

3)Northern Europe- HRE and Poles
Nothing new at the moment. Suggestions needed.
4)Southern Europe
Genoese Mtd Xbows- stats of Mtd. Sgts.
Venetian Gendarmes- carry X-bows
Kns available in Venice and/or Sicily
Tuscan Urban Militia & Militia Sgts & Italian Halberdiers- better morale
Genoese X-bows- att of FMAA; similar to Futuwwa, etc.
Italian Lt Inf.- Feudal Sgts & MAA, ex speed
Milanese Hvy. Inf.- Chiv Sgts & MAA
No MAA since militia and spears used instead.
Italian Pikemen
Hosp. Ft Kn- req Chapterhouse
5)Iberian Peninsula
Spanish Jinetes- in place of Mtd Sgts
Caballeros- Teutonic Sgts.
Kns of Avis, Calatrava, Santiago- in Aragon and/or Castile
Castilian Militia- FMAA + AP
Castilian Militia Sgts.- CMAA + AP
Tercio- Gothic Ft Kn- req Chapterhouse
No MAA since Castilian militia are just as good.
Spanish spears- nothing new
Almughavars- available in all of Spain, plus Med provinces
6)Western Europe- French
Hobilars- no Mtd Sgts available
Gendarmes
Knights, Champions, Paladins- available in Wessex and/or Paris
FMAA
CMAA
Compagnies d'Ordonnance- Hosp. Ft. Kns- req Chapterhouse
Urban Militia
Militia Sgts
Flemish Militia- Burg. Halberds
Feudal Sgts.
Chiv. Sgts.
Flemish Pikemen
7)British Isles- includes Normandy and Aquitaine too.
Hobilars- no Mtd Sgts available
Gendarmes
Knights, Champions, Paladins- available in Wessex and/or Paris
Rangers- bowmen with stats of FMAA, no shield
Longbows- have stats of CMAA, no shield
English Ft Kns- Hosp. Ft. Kn.- req Chapterhouse
Village Militia- Urban Militia
County Militia- Militia Sgts
Billmen- Halberdiers
Saxon Fyrdmen- Feudal Sgts.
English Fyrdmen- Chiv Sgts.
Scottish Pikemen
8)Russian steppes- just jotted a few things down here.
Lith cav- Polish lt cav
Woodsmen- Urban Mil
Mongol Mangudai- Royal Guard
9)Byzantines- these are in addition to the Byzant's existing unique units.
Kontarioi- Kerns
Skutatoi- Byz Feudal Sgts
Imperial Skutatoi- Byz Chiv Sgts
Byzantine Menavlatoi- Byz pikes
Pronoiai Inf.- Byz Chiv MAA

10)Levantine
Crusader units may be built in these three provinces. (Palestine, Tripoli, Antioch)

[Old Templar]

I am sorry Wes, but I completely misunderstood your previous question for input - mea culpa
Here is what you are looking for regarding Russia {applies to Lithuvania and with little changes to Kiev as well)-
go to: www.xenophongi.org/ruhistory/medievalarmor/rustable.htm

You will find the description of Russian armies by centuries, weapons, armament, and fire weapons.
Note that Boyars did not exist before the 1600 (CA is wrong). Before the boyars the heavy cavalry was called "Ratnik"(not as heavily armoured than the western Knights because they had to fight lighter Steppe cavalry; the light cavalry was called "Ratniki".

I hope this is more of use to you. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[WesW]

Thanks, OT, that site was a big help. Here is what I have now for the Russians.

8)Russian steppes
Cossacks- Teutonic Sgts.
Dhruzina cav- kns
Peshtsi- Urban Militia
Peshtsi Sgts.- Militia Sgts
Berdyshi Sgts.- Halberdiers
Kop'ya Infantry- Feudal Sgts.
Rogatina Infantry- Chiv Sgts.
Ratniki solva- Pikemen

My understanding was that Ratnik just meant "Warrior", so I conbined that with the name of the Russian pike to get something like Pike Warriors or warriors with pikes.

Now I need sites for Germany/HRE, Hungary and Poland.

[Old Templar]

Wes, your are correct, the word "Ratnik" means warrior, however it means the mounted warrior.
A ratnik was a cavalry unit comparable to the heavy cavalry with less heavy armor than the western knight. The large russian territory and constant fights with steppe tribes required mobility that only a cavalry could provide. The peshtsi or infantry was available in small numbers to guard the forts.In battle they were to secure the back of the cavalry. For battle or in time of danger they were raised in larger numbers. The ratniki was a lighter cavalry similar to CA's Steppe Cavalry.
If you want to be historically correct, I suggest the following for the cavalry mod:

PRINCELY DRUSHINA: a small elite unit comparable to the western Paladin. Heavily armed and with good attack stats.
Expensive, since only a few should be possible for the game.

RATNIK: Comparable to western knight with a little less armor, although later they had platted armor. Here you may want to use CA's stats for the boyars. They had 1 to 2 spears or javalins, BOWS, mace, sword, and/or battle axe. Remember, they defeated the Swedes(1240) and Teutonic Knights (1242).

RATNIKI: The same stats as for the current steppe cavalry.

At the time period for the game, the cossacks belonged still to a small tribe and probably should not appear in the game.
I recommend making the cavalry for the Russians cheaper than the western Europeans in order to make this faction produce primarily cavalry; and please, give them only the basic infantry units.

This is just a suggestion.

Do not expect to much for the Germans; they were quite similar to the French at that time period - just different german names, such as Ritter for Knight, etc.
Unfortunately, there is little information on the internet for the Hungarians, but (if you e-mail me your fax number) I can probably find more in the published literatur.

[Jeff]

Well I read through the Readme file and checked out your Website Wes. Everything looks great and I am going to try the Mod when I get home from work tonight. I am curious to know if you went through and changed all the stats as far as Attack rating and Defense and such to all the units. I know you tweaked some units, like the Byz Inf., but I wonder if you did something to all of them. It seems to me that some units like Kats and say Gothic Knights should carry some inherent Dread rating, and maybe the Vikings as well. These units used fear as an aid in battle as well. Units like Peasants, and maybe Urban militia, glorified peasants, should suffer some type of penalty when facing such heavily armed "badassed" units. This might already be the case I don't know as I have only had the game for a couple of weeks.

*edit* Actually after reading through this thread again I see that a good many Units have been modified a bit. I still wonder though if just your basic Spearman should suffer even a small penalty when facing an Elite unit. I mean your talking a highly disciplined, highly trained, armoured unit fighting against an average Joe schmo and suffer a penalty just because the guy is holding a spear. Am I wrong in thinking that no matter what, the Spear units are automatically going to beat a cavalry unit no matter what the armour/elite rating. Maybe I am misunderstanding the basic logic for this. I still say a unit of Kats should run over an average everyday run of the mill spear unit, especaially as they have lances themselves.

Anyways I am getting off on a tangent here. Great job on the mod Wes thank you.

[WesW]

I found a good site on Hungarian history a couple of nights ago which listed Hungarian unit types. Here is what I have for the Huns now:

1)Balkans
Szekely Horsearchers- Horse Archers- Lithuanian Cav.
Cuman Horsearchers- Byzantine Cav.
Saxon Knights- Feudal Kns- in Hungary
Armigeri Mercenary Kns.- Chiv. Kns.- in Hungary
Knights of the Banderium- Kns of Santiago- in Hungary
Hungarian Urban Militia
Hungarian Militia Sgts.
Bulgarian Brigands
Transylvanian Archers- Futuwwa+
Armati Ft. Kns.- Gothic Ft. Kn.- Req Chapterhouse
Saxon Infantry- Feudal Sgts.
Bohemian Mercenaries- Chiv. Sgts.
Clipeati Sgts.- Gothic Sgts.

It has been really nice learning about Medieval military matters. I mean, I knew a good bit already, but mostly about the French and English.
In everything I have read, it seems that medieval armies didn't have professional infantry, but rather local militia that were called up for specific campaigns or threats, accompanyied by nobles on horseback. The Hungarian history site said that infantry were an afterthought in Hungarian armies.
You had the nobles which formed the heavy cavalry, light cavalry skirmishers, which were often mercenaries, and militia, which were either spearmen or axemen. The militia were normally placed in the center of the formation, and were used to guard the interior flanks of the cavalry wings, and to provide a barrier the cavalry could run behind to regroup if need be.
The cavalry usually out-numbered the infantry by a considerable amount in Hungarian armies, who were primarily designed to fight the Turks, and generally mirrored their composition.

Nice to hear from you, Jeff. I just realized that I no longer had anything in the mod that listed the original unit stats. I used to have the changes to unit stats highlighted, but I eventually had made so many that I decided to stop marking them. Check out the Charts and Readmes folder, which the mod created in your Medieval - Total War folder, for complete mod stats. You can also get downloads from the org which contain spreadsheets of original unit stats. I also have a thread in the Dungeon dedicated to the mod, where you can post about it.

[Jeff]

Ok well I installed the Mod and started a campaign with the Danes. SO far so good, but there is one thing I would like to ask everyone: After you installed the mod, did the HRE just simply dominate? Right now I am currently in the year 1138 and the HRE has eliminated the French and the English(which they accomplished in about 20 turns) Not only that but they are almost done with eliminating the Spanish and Italians. All I can say is wow I have never seen the HRE so aggresive

[NewJeffCT]

Well, in my first ever campaign, I picked the English. While I was learning the game, my English empire was barely hanging on while the HRE conquered the French, Aragonese, Italians, Polish & Hungarians. They also thumbed their noses at me and snagged Ireland. The French were confined to the one province of Brittany after having their king ransomed home. This was all pretty early in the game.

Soon after getting the Hungarians, the HRE got excommunicated (as usual, it seems, in games I have played) and they had rebellions popping up all over the place. The Hungarians respawned with a vengeance, and the Egyptians conquered all over the Turk, Byzantine, Sicilian and Russian provinces, while I snagged Flanders and a few others in Northern Europe. I had most of France and managed to land the iron provinces in northern Spain…

I still wonder at that – the Egyptians had a huge army in Naples, while the Pope was sitting there with very little. They could have just rolled over the Pope and then snagged those rich provinces just to the North…

[efstratios]

Hey Wes,

thanks for the mods I can only hope these links on Byzantium will help:

Varangian Guard (http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/varangian/varangianencampment.html)

Byzantine Army (http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarticlesbyzantine.htm)

Byzantine Banners (http://www.hoplon.bravepages.com/en/articles/byzantineflag.htm)

medieval sourcebook (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html)

PS ...is there any way you can depict Byzantium with its proper double-headed eagle banner in any future version mod?


E

[WesW]

Thanks for the links. I think I have about all I need now. I spent several hours a couple nights ago reading up on the HRE and Italians. I didn't find as much as I wanted on Italy, but it's not bad.

As for banners, I don't know any more about them than you do, most likely. If you wanted to look into it, go ahead, though I figure CA had a reason for the current banners.

And no, I have not made the HRE dominant, though I did strengthen their economic potential some. This would not have had any immediate effect, however, so I think what you are seeing is just the random fluctuations between games.

[Jeff]

Yeah I see that it must be random. In my campaign with the Danes the HRE was dominant. In my campaign with the Spanish the French were the dominant faction, and in my Campaign with the Italians the English dominated. I gues that everytime you start a new compaign the computer randomly picks who will be the dominant AI faction.

[WesW]

This is what I have for the units, subject to change when we see what new units come with VI. I have tried to come up with historical names when possible, and stick to a logical theme within each faction. I have changed the character of a few factions somewhat, and for most I have eliminated either the MAA or Militia troop branches, with other troop-lines filling the slack. I think this will differentiate the Catholic factions from one another, and require the player to develop new techniques to win with them.

1)Balkans
Szekely Horsearchers- Horse Archers- Lithuanian Cav.
Cuman Horsearchers- Byzantine Cav.
Saxon Merc Knights- Feudal Kns- in Hungary
Armigeri Mercenary Kns.- Chiv. Kns.- in Hungary
Knights of the Banderium- Kns of Santiago- in Hungary
Hungarian Militia- Urban Militia
Hungarian Militia Sgts.
Serbian Halberdiers
Bulgarian Brigands
Transylvanian Archers- Futuwwa+
Armati Ft. Kns.- Janissary Archers+ - Req Chapterhouse
Saxon Merc Infantry- Feudal Sgts.
Bohemian Merc Infantry- Chiv. Sgts.
Clipeati Sgts.- Gothic Sgts.

2)Scandinavia
Viking Raiders- Mtd Sgts.
Nordic Mauraders- Teutonic Sgts.
Viking Cav.- Feudal Kns- in Denmark
Danish Kns- Chiv Kns- in Denmark
Gothic Kns- in Denmark and/or Bavaria
Landsmenn- FMAA- better attack, lower armour, AP
Bondi- CMAA- better attack, lower armour, AP
Jomsvikings- Ft. Kn.- better attack, lower armour, AP- Norway
Berserkers- current Vikings- Nordic Ghazis
No militia available since the vikings come from general populace
Viking Inf- Feudal Sgts.
Nordic Sgts.- Chiv Sgts.
Gothic Sgts.- Gothic Sgts.

3)Northern Europe
Mtd Sgts
Teutonic Sgts
Saxon Kns- in Bavaria
Bavarian Kns- in Bavaria
Gothic Kns- in Bavaria and/or Denmark
Saxon Swordsmen- FMAA
Swabian Swordsmen- CMAA
Gothic Ft. Kns- req Chapterhouse
Hanseatic Militia
Hanseatic Militia Sgts
Gothic Militia- Halberds
Baronial Levies- Feudal Sgts.
County Levies- Chiv. Sgts.
Landsknecht- Pikemen
4)Southern Europe
Genoese Mtd Xbows- stats of Mtd. Sgts.
Venetian Gendarmes- carry X-bows
Italian Feudal, Chiv & Kns Hosp- in Venice and/or Sicily
No MAA since militia and spears used instead.
Hosp. Ft Kn- req Chapterhouse
Tuscan Militia & Militia Sgts & Florentine Halberdiers- better morale
Genoese X-bows- att of FMAA; similar to Futuwwa, etc.
Genoese Arbs- upgrade of X-bows
Italian Lt Inf.- Same stats
Italian Hvy. Inf.- upgrade of lt inf.
Condoterri- Pikemen
5)Iberian Peninsula
Spanish Jinetes- in place of Mtd Sgts
Caballeros- Teutonic Sgts.
Kns of Avis, Calatrava, Santiago- in Aragon and/or Castile
Castilian Militia- FMAA + AP
Castilian Militia Sgts.- CMAA + AP
Tercio- Gothic Ft Kn- req Chapterhouse
No MAA since Castilian militia are just as good.
Navarrian Inf- Feudal Sgts.
Navarrian Sgts.- Chiv. Sgts.
Almughavars- available in all of Spain, plus Med provinces
6)Western Europe
Hobilars- no Mtd Sgts available
Gendarmes
Destriders, Chevaliers, Lancers- available in Paris
FMAA
CMAA
Compagnies d'Ordonnance- Hosp. Ft. Kns- req Chapterhouse
Urban Militia
Militia Sgts
Flemish Militia- Burg. Halberds
Feudal Sgts.
Chiv. Sgts.
Flemish Pikemen
7)British Isles
Hobilars- no Mtd Sgts available
Skirmishers- Gendarmes
Knights, Champions, Paladins- available in Wessex
Foresters- Ottoman Inf.
Rangers- Janissary Bowmen
English Ft Kns- Hosp. Ft. Kn.- req Chapterhouse
Village Militia- Urban Militia
County Militia- Militia Sgts
Billmen- Halberdiers
Saxon Fyrdmen- Feudal Sgts.
English Fyrdmen- Chiv Sgts.
Scottish Pikemen
8)Russian steppes
Steppe Cav- unchanged
Boyars- unchanged
Cossacks- Teutonic Sgts.
Royal Dhruzina Cav- kns
Peshtsi- Urban Militia
Peshtsi Sgts.- Militia Sgts
Berdyshi Sgts.- Halberdiers
Kop'ya Infantry- Feudal Sgts.
Rogatina Infantry- Chiv Sgts.
Ratniki solva- Pikemen
9)Byzantines
Alan Mercs- lt cav.
Kataphractoi- old Byz. Cav.- still royal unit
Klibanphoroi- old Pronoiai A.- in Nicaea
Byz Lt Inf.- Ottoman Inf.
Varangian Guard- unchanged- available in Balkans & Kiev only
Kontarioi- Kerns
Skutatoi- Italian Lt Inf.
Imperial Skutatoi- Italian Hvy Inf.
Byzantine Menavlatoi- Condoterri
No militia since the Byzants used professionals
Levantine
All regular units from Crusading factions may be built in these three provinces. (Palestine, Tripoli, Antioch)
Mongols
Mongol Mangudai- Royal Guard- upgraded Mongol HA

[WesW]

Here is what I have for provincial association. I ended up with about 10 to 12 provinces per area, which I believe to be a nice number since knights are restricted to one province.

English
ID_WALES
ID_NORTH_UMBRIA
ID_WESSEX
ID_MERCIA
ID_SCOTLAND
ID_IRELAND
ID_NORMANDY
ID_FLANDERS
ID_AQUITAINE
ID_BRITTANY
ID_ANJOU


French/Burgundians
ID_BRITTANY
ID_NORMANDY
ID_ILE_DE_FRANCE
ID_CHAMPAGNE
ID_TOULOUSE
ID_PROVENCE
ID_ANJOU
ID_BURGUNDY
ID_FLANDERS
ID_LORRAINE
ID_AQUITAINE

Spanish/Aragonese
ID_CASTILE
ID_LEON
ID_PORTUGAL
ID_CORDOBA
ID_GRANADA
ID_VALENCIA
ID_ARAGON
ID_NAVARRE
ID_PROVENCE
ID_SICILY
ID_MALTA
ID_TOULOUSE

HRE/Swiss
ID_LORRAINE
ID_FRANCONIA
ID_AUSTRIA
ID_BAVARIA
ID_BOHEMIA
ID_BRANDENBURG
ID_PRUSSIA
ID_POMERANIA
ID_SAXONY
ID_SWITZERLAND
ID_TYROLIA
ID_BURGUNDY
ID_SWABIA

Poles/Hungarians
ID_SERBIA
ID_LITHUANIA
ID_SILESIA
ID_VOLHYNIA
ID_POMERANIA
ID_WALLACHIA
ID_PRUSSIA
ID_BULGARIA
ID_CARPATHIA
ID_HUNGARY
ID_CROATIA
ID_MOLDAVIA

Italians/Sicilians
ID_GENOA
ID_MILAN
ID_VENICE
ID_TUSCANY
ID_PAPAL_STATES
ID_NAPLES
ID_SICILY
ID_MALTA
ID_CRETE
ID_RHODES
ID_SARDINIA
ID_CORSICA

Danes
ID_SAXONY
ID_SWEDEN
ID_NORWAY
ID_POMERANIA
ID_DENMARK
ID_FINLAND
ID_PRUSSIA
ID_LITHUANIA
ID_LIVONIA
ID_FREISLAND
ID_NOVGOROD

Russians/Kievans
ID_MUSCOVY
ID_KIEV
ID_KHAZAR
ID_LITHUANIA
ID_LIVONIA
ID_CHERNIGOV
ID_NOVGOROD
ID_PEREYASLAVL
ID_VOLGA_BULGARIA
ID_SMOLENSK
ID_RYAZAN
ID_VOLHYNIA

Byzantines
ID_CONSTANTINOPLE
ID_NICAEA
ID_TREBIZOND
ID_GEORGIA
ID_ANATOLIA
ID_GREECE
ID_BULGARIA
ID_CYPRUS
ID_RHODES
ID_CRETE
ID_SERBIA
ID_CRIMEA

Crusading Factions
ID_TRIPOLI
ID_ANTIOCH
ID_JERUSALEM

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (WesW @ April 03 2003,13:45)]When I play a campaign, I always seem to grow bored and quit it after I have a couple dozen provinces under control, since you are able to churn out so many units each turn that you can roll over everyone else.

What I want to do is to give each faction unique elite units, and restrict these units to the starting provinces of each faction.
I think restricting units would definately add to the game. Limiting Christian units to Europe and Muslim to Med. at a minimum. I modded 1.84 so that Mongol units were only available on the Steps but were cheap and had few building requirements. It prevented the mongols from becoming an Uber faction (Late period), and also prevented them from being overrun easily.

As far as making the game challenging after 1/4 of the map is taken, that is a tougher problem. I've been modding games to play as individual factions, ie; a Byzantine mod only intended to play as the Byz. What i'll do is add to the upkeep of ships (to balance my ability to set up trade routes vs. the AI), make my factions advanced units more expensive, and make the AI units less expensive (especially upkeep, to help the AI from becoming bogged down financially). This seems to help a lot. Combined with territorial restrictions on faction units, it could keep the game challenging to the end.

[Kristaps]

I agree that European units should be availabe only in Europe and Muslim units only in Muslim countries. This actually could vary by religion: if a province becomes predominantly muslim: the muslim units become available. The opposite would be true for Orthodox and Catholic units. As to restricting knights to one starting province: I disagree. The idea of empire building is to develop also the conquered territories which eventually become as important suppliers of your armies as the mainlands. On another note, in my campaigns it's only a few selected provinces that produce units anyway: the conquered provinces are too much burnt down to produce high quality troops fast (i.e., usually no armor upgrades, no weapon upgrades or high tech buildings remaining).

[WesW]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ May 13 2003,09:22)]As to restricting knights to one starting province: I disagree. The idea of empire building is to develop also the conquered territories which eventually become as important suppliers of your armies as the mainlands.

On another note, in my campaigns it's only a few selected provinces that produce units anyway: the conquered provinces are too much burnt down to produce high quality troops fast (i.e., usually no armor upgrades, no weapon upgrades or high tech buildings remaining).
As to the first part- I agree that this is how we play the game, but I think you can see how this contributes to the snowballing effect that makes the game less of a challenge after we take out one or two other factions.
Also, I don't think that conscription from conquered lands was ever effective in the medieval period historically.

And, many provinces are indeed too poor to ever be very useful, at least the way we play now. What I am trying to do is force us into having to develop those provinces as well. This will slow down military development for the player, eliminate the use of the best provinces of other factions for giving us additional elite units each turn, and better simulate history.

The snowballing of power is what has made all the "4X-type" games I have ever played lose their appeal after you gain a commanding position, going back to Civ I. We have an opportunity to reign this in for MTW, and I just think that everyone will be blown away by its results once they try it.

Also, please see my new thread in the dungeon about restricting Catholic units.

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (insolent1 @ April 08 2003,01:07)]Its a good idea but the AI will suffer as its not the human player who looses there home provinces that much but the AI does all the time. Sounds like u would face armies of pesants at the end pretty much like the real game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
I've gotta agree with insolent1 WesW you are simply amazing, but I have VERY strong doubts the AI will cooperate with the aims of the mod.

Yours is an excellent idea (and probably far beyond what CA had evisioned for modders), but w/o the capability to adjust the AI....what do you have in terms of Gameplay? Certainly, worth a try to find out I'd say.

First, let me ask to be sure: Is this a "Historical Simulation" or is the mod intended to provide enhanced "Game Playability"? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif [Pun Intended]

Anyway, it appears the "historical" aspects of the proposed mod are well covered, now I think it might be time to give some thought to gameplay.

This is how I'm see the mod, at the moment.

1) 7 or 8 "Regional" "Troop Type" areas, encompassing 2 to 3 Factions (or should that be 3 to 4). With each Faction initially holding 3 to 5 Provences.

2) Troop Types "Restricted" by Region and by "Capital". Capital consisting of just 1, possibly 2 provences per Faction.

So far, do I have the premise correct?

The question is how will this "Regional/Restricted" mod play?

WesW, once you've finished with the list of Troop Types and Regions, how, more specifically, do you propose to "restrict" the building of units?

I think I'll pause and wait for an answer.

I'll tell you, I can't get over thinking that this mod will be in need of its own specifically designed Strat Map. Is this possible?

[ChaosLord]

TorangaSama, I don't think it will hurt the AI. The AI usually holds its "home" provinces anyway, if its lost them its probably going to die soon. How often have you seen the AI lose its core provinces and survive to be an actual power? (edited since I misread it, but figured i'd leave the inital post anyway)

To the AI all hes doing is changing the numbers. Instead of building X and getting X they will get Y instead. Its all just numbers to the AI, there isn't any sort of build script or something similar I don't think. It looks what it can build in said province and what it needs to build it. The AI handles other region specific troops fine I don't see why it wouldn't handle this fine, its just numbers.

But anyway, I love this idea, it makes me even more eager for the VI version of your mod WesW. I'm not an expert in any of the factions really so I can't really comment on the choices, but they look well enough to me. Also, with VI comes the ability to add(up to 31 or 32 max total) factions, leaving 11 spaces left for the M:TW campaign. Have you considered adding some of the factions that many feel were left out in regular M:TW?

The factions I thought might be good to add were:
Scottish(possiblyIrish too, but then it might end up too crowded?)
Portuguese(if its in the correct time-frame, help to mix things up in the Iberian pennisula)
Kievans(Add them as there own faction, rather then replacing Novogorod, it would help fill in the East)
-And after that, any possible minor European kingdoms to add? The more, the merrier in my opinion. Get that Total War feeling going. Maybe the Prussians? Anyway, just some ideas, figured i'd post here along all the brainstorming since it was kinda relevant.