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Methabaron
11-14-2000, 16:33
Many complains on gun moral checks and gun effectiveness have been shown recently... in some ocassions the complains claimed unbalance...

In some games you can see 5+ muskets units routing to death any enemy, if played properly...

The one thing I think is not properly designed about gun fire units is friendly fire...

Many times I have attacked frontally an army composed of 4 units of muskets at least deployed in my ooponent's front line. Once my troops approach, the muskets keep on firing until I am too close, then (if they are set in skirmish mode or set to fire an incoming enemy)the musket units move to the rear to keep the minimum range and... keep on firing from there!!!!!, and with deadly results on the attacker part !!!! with no visible results on friendly fire !!!

I would expect at least that a gun unit firing from behind a friendly unit to a melee should not have the moral effect it normally has in the open. Or at least that the same moral penalty (if not higher! )is ALSO alpplied on the friendly units if they are being shot through too!!!!!

I should have requested that to Erado's question time ... It seems fair to me that if the musket unit is firing THROUGH a friendly unit onto an enemy one, the friendly one should have the same if not bigger moral penalty !!!, after all:

a) the friendly units are normally closer to the guns and more subject to casualties !!
b) the friendly unit realizes that their own general does not care about their lives since he has order fire through them !!!

I would not mind the muskets keep their moral effect as long as friendly fire is handled as I suggest and moral penalties are also applied to friendly units!!!

In this case, the "all guns players" would have to be really carefull when placing the guns... it is just too easy to let them just move to the rear when teh attack is coming and continue firing from there with no apparent moral penalty for the intervening friendly units.

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

Jaxem
11-14-2000, 23:38
Muskets do cause friendly fire damage
and sometimes seem to cause a lot more
than to the enemy. The worst case I had
was when a unit of yaris charged muskets.
I ordered Yari samurai to intercept.
The muskets ran back allowing the samurai
to hit the yaris. The muskets set up
again and fired. I lost as many if not
more units as the cavalry. Lucky for me
the cavalry routed.
At least I have never seen a musket kill
another musketeer from the same unit the
way archers will sometimes kill other
archers in the same unit.

=)

-J

Dwimmerlaik
11-14-2000, 23:58
Mebbe this is a little off-topic but do muskets get an offensive advantage when defending against attack? It seems to me that I lose a lot more musket units in my front line than my opponent when i get into an arty duel on even flat maps like totomi...Or am i doing something wrong? http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net4/frusty.gif

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To be happy it is necessary not to be too intelligent

- Flaubert-

Didz
11-15-2000, 03:22
Metha:

I agree it doesn't seem right that troops armed with guns should be able to fire from behind their own troops.

Unlike Bows guns have a very flat trajectory and unless deployed on higher ground would be unable to fire over their comrades into the enemy.

I think this is a slight inaccuracy in the game mechanic's.

Rob
11-15-2000, 07:52
Muskets are probably too powerful in some circumstances, other times not. On Totomi, I sometimes use archers instead of muskets. If my enemy has honour 0 muskets I know I have a good chance of routing them with my archers. I consistently do better out of those artillery exchanges, until I run out of arrows of course http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

From close range muskets are great, particularly in low honour games. Sometimes too effective I think. For example, enemy Yari Cav charges at my muskets. My muskets fire, kill maybe ten enemy cav. The enemy cav then run like hell! Why should they do this? Surely they realise that the musketeers will have to reload in order to fire another shot and by that time the Yari Cav could be slaughtering them! It doesn't really make sense http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

FearedSangsara
11-15-2000, 17:00
See, the problem here is, you guys are thinking like rational, logical human beings. You need to think like the STW programmers think.

1)Musket fires at troops in melee
2)Musket ball goes over the heads of meleeing troops
3)Musket ball bounces off of trees, hills, mountains, birds or even clouds if nothing else is in the way
4)Musket ball comes sailing back into the melee, causing great losses to enemy and very few losses to team with the muskets.
5)enemies' entire army routs, team with muskets wins the battle
6)return to lobby to find there was an error and enemy that routed somehow miraculously won


You see guys, you need to think like the designers in order to truely understand this game. It was actually implemeted to help us learn the technique of Zen. In order to become smarter, you must think idioticly.

Pretty simple once you understand. http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/shiny.gif

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.....F..E..A..R..F..U..L.........FearedSangsara..........W..A..Y..S.....
http://www.pacificcoast.net/~mudhoney/anigifs/bloodlin.gif

Erado San
11-15-2000, 20:00
Hehe, now I know why you won the tourney.

Puzz3D
11-15-2000, 20:30
Rob: I think the routing of cavalry in the face of guns is supposed to simulate the effect of a volley on the horses. They wouldn't know the guns have to reload.

BanzaiZAP
11-16-2000, 02:01
Easy musket solution - wait for bad weather.

That being said, I think the morale loss to muskets is not that out of proportion. Guns were a new thing in Nippon, so it was really unnerving to hear a crack, then *ziiiip!* a bee stings your buddy and he drops dead. Horses definitely would panic when charging into combined fire. Never ever ever charge head-on into a musket group. Didn't you guys ever see Kagemusha? An entire Takeda army wiped out by charging musket lines.

Friendly fire is a must, and I have been burnt by it enough to know that it IS factored in there, just maybe not as severely as some people want. One way to avoid this is to leave them on Fire At Will, and DON'T select a target for them. One of the properties of FaW is that they will select their own targets, and will actually stop firing at a unit if they are engaged in melee with friendly units. They will automagically chose clear targets. Supposedly.

Even though muskets are powerful, they really suck at melee, so if you must do an assault on a musket position, attack from two sides, so that while they're firing at one, the other can hit them from a flank. The moment they get into melee, muskets get butchered. Most effective is to use ashigaru to dance around at extreme range, then as the muskets open up, send your Yari Cavs around from behind the hill to slam into them. The moment they flinch, have the Ashi's charge in to grind them up.

-- B)

solypsist
11-16-2000, 02:05
ive had good results firing into melee, usually from a flank or behind (almost never shooting at/over my own attacking men's backs).

Rob
11-16-2000, 02:09
I take your point about the cavalry, my stupid mistake (though according to Sang, that makes me a pretty good player http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ).

I still think that the close-range musket effect is out of proportion. Surely the most frightening bit is approaching them BEFORE they fire, since you might well end up dead. Once they've fired, and you are still alive, I would imagine your morale would IMPROVE! Added to your moral outrage against these bastards with their cowardly foreign weapons who've just killed your best Samurai buddies, I would imagine you would charge in there wanting to hack them to death!

ElmarkOFear
11-16-2000, 02:20
Sang! You continue to amaze me with the inner workings of your mind. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Your karma must be very great indeed to have made such excellent conclusions about the thought processes of the programmers! LOL I am truly awed by your vast intellect, and this humble ashigaru bows down on hands and knees before your greatness. "I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!" From your extremely ugly teammate, Elmarko of Fearful Ways!!

ElmarkOFear
11-16-2000, 02:20
Sang! You continue to amaze me with the inner workings of your mind. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Your karma must be very great indeed to have made such excellent conclusions about the thought processes of the programmers! LOL I am truly awed by your vast intellect, and this humble ashigaru bows down on hands and knees before your greatness. "I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!" From your extremely ugly teammate, Elmarko of Fearful Ways!!

ShaiHulud
11-16-2000, 05:37
The tendency of a soldier to duck when fired upon is fact. They call that suppression. Ducking on a horse might prove difficult. Far easier is to get the hell out of range.
To be attacked at a range greater than your ability to strike back is a HUGE morale crusher. Imagine all those Iraqis, sitting in trenches or bunkers, unable to strike back at the air units pulverizing them. When crunch time came, they mostly fled or surrendered.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Rob
11-16-2000, 05:49
Yes, but what about all those soldiers who went 'over the top' during World War I? They had more than a few guys with primitive muskets to face, but they still fought.

And what about Bushido? Time and time again the code of the Samurai is talked about in the game manual and other documentation, yet in the game itself the units seem distinctly unwilling to face even the possibility of death.