battle formations

[Hirosito]

Hi what are peoples views on the set battle formations (keys1-9)

Use 'em or lose 'em?

------------------
Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

[The Black Ship]

Lose 'em http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

I only wish they'd let us train our own formations, I'm always trying to move my guys into the same formation anyway, you'd think the game would let me default this.

[BanzaiZAP]

I'd use them if it allowed me to customize my own. Set up the 16 unit army, then save that formation as one of the buttons, or something like that. I use the built in ones occaisionally, and would probably pay attention to them if I played more online, since they can give you an edge on a defender who likes to set up on the very front of their circle (like the monk rushers).

-- B)

[Magyar Khan]

i like to see an option where i could directly get a unit with a certain amount of ranks

[solypsist]

woohooo

and the cycle begins anew...(I'm referring to the influx of newbie questions, that is)

actually, I really like the Yoke formation, it's pretty close to what I'd choose as my normal, single player attack formation.

[Slyspy]

I'm with Magyar Khan on this one. Army formation changes every time I play, depending on terrain, troops etc so even user defined formations would only really be useful when deploying. Short cuts to change the number of ranks without the unwieldy click-and-drag system would be very useful (epecially when deploying missile units).

------------------
"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[Hitodama]

I first thought you ment the default formations you can chose in the start (arrow, bird, etc.) These i don't use. Only in SP. I think it's wrong you can't set your army up in custom battle (SP) in the same way you can in MP.

BlackShip, Banzai
It's a good idea to costumize your own battle formations and save them.
It would be nice to know what the pros/cons are for these default formations. Then maybe we can use them properly.

And Magy's idea about ranks is great. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/cool.gif That would be very usefull for missile units!

------------------
http://iserit.greennet.gl/ignatius/face.gif
....................................
All warfare is based on deception.

[This message has been edited by Hitodama (edited 12-12-2000).]

[DragonCat]

I use the YOKE formation in EVERY multiplayer battle online. It lays things out nicely and the same way each time so I know where to find and reform everyone more quickly. Just a personal preference. and it is the only reasonable use I have found for these commands.

FearDrgonCat
"...on the prowl"

[Vespasianus]

I would also have more use for custom battle formations. I don't like how sometimes when you use skirmish center with YS, SA and guns, they put the guns in the rear. As for preset formations, I usually go in with yoke or arrowhead (occasionally birds), and I use square, defensive and skirmish center in the first few minutes of an indecisive battle where I am attacking. I never use formations on the defense, since they are very incompatible with terrain bonuses.




------------------
March swiftly to where you are least expected, and attack where your enemy must hasten to defend.

[ElmarkOFear]

What I would like to see is the ability to move your entire army in its current formation to another facing (such as shifting it 45 degrees to the right flank). Currently, you have to use the "select all" command, pick your spot and then slowly realign the entire army formation unit by unit to get your desired facing. At least that is my understanding. Does anyone know of a way to accomplish this faster? If so, please let me know. Elmarko

[Vanya]

I think that if you select the whole army, and GROUP them into a single group, they will maintain the formation as they walk and when they arrive at their new destination. Of course, they will be facing the direction of the march. But, grouping prior to marching should do the trick here.

[Hirosito]

i think all these yokey arrow birds should be ditched in favour of the normal formations
(in SP) or at least make them available as well

[Gorobei]

Magyar, I also wished for the rank-shortcut some while ago, and posted something on it. Maybe if we nag them enough they'll take it seriously!

I actually like the big army formations and experiment a bit with them. They all seem to suggest different attack strategies. The only ones I can't use are Arrowhead and Keyhole. It would be nice with a Battle Trainer that taught you something about each one.

Then on the other hand, we're supposed to find everything out by ourselves, right?

[Puzz3D]

Elmark,

Not sure what you mean, but you can rotate the entire formation about it's center with + right click if you have everyone selected. It would be more usesfull if you could choose the point of rotation. Then you could have the entire formation wheel right or left.

[Hitodama]

Vanya is right. You have to group your units first and then move them.

------------------
http://iserit.greennet.gl/ignatius/face.gif
....................................
All warfare is based on deception.

[Shiro]

I love the idea of custom formations. I hate having to move everyone around the way I want it! Takes up so much time!
-Shiro

[Hoichi]

Gorobei,

The arrowhead formation was intended for an all out attack and the keyhole formation was intened as a defensive formation to recieve an arrowhead formation attack. maybe that's why you never use them. they cancel each other out.

If anyones interested, i can post the intended uses of the other formations included in the game and some formations not included.

Hoichi

[Idaho]

I would like to have a bank of formations saved so I could set traps on the battlefield. It would be great to have preset feints and counters - it would put the emphasis on the tactical rather than just the rock beats scissors..etc.

------------------
"To kill with the point lacks artistry, but don't let that stay your hand should the opportunity arise"

[BanzaiZAP]

Hoichi:
I'd be interested! I've tried some of them out on occaision, and they're useful for quick strikes - rather than spending the first few minutes ordering your troops, you just head right out. I'd like to see how they were supposed to be used.

-- B)

[Obake]

From what I remember, there are actually 20+ formations Zap. Hoichi, I would also like to see what info you have on the formations. I found some good info on the Killer Katana's site, but some diagrams would have been even more helpful.

------------------
FearObake http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/laghost.gif
I am the ghost of your fears.
Got a compliment or concern about a Fearful Ways member? Let us know about it HERE (http://pub24.ezboard.com/bfearfulways)

[Anssi Hakkinen]

You do know about the \AiData subdirectory, yes? It has .txt files that contain some sort of scripts that define the formations. Never looked closer into that...

------------------
"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[Gorobei]

I went through those AI files...at each one it said "don't want AI using these wacky formations"... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

What a shame, maybe it should. To make it's attacks more potent.

Btw, I would like to be able to switch Army Formation after deploying, instead of having to move the units one by one to counter the situation.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Quote I went through those AI files...at each one it said "don't want AI using these wacky formations"... [/QUOTE]But those are just the historical formations (Crane, Yoke, etc.). There are other formations that the AI actually does use (and even some we don't get to use - the best ones, of course).

Quote Btw, I would like to be able to switch Army Formation after deploying, instead of having to move the units one by one to counter the situation.[/QUOTE]How about trying the "Group Formation" command?

------------------
"The right use of the sword is that it should subdue the barbarians while lying gleaming in its scabbard. If it leaves its sheath it cannot be said to be used rightly."
- Tokugawa Ieyasu: Legacy

[Methabaron]

Puzz3D, Elmark,

Rotating formations: try using the "windows" key + left mouse button click and you will get interesting results although it is not very obvious to master the art. Alt+ right click seems to have a similar effect yes.

Bottom line: Custom formation plus facing/orientation changing without losing formations should be in the next wish list to developers... along with the attacking stats when pressing the F1 etc etc...

Metha

------------------
"It is astonishing with how little wisdom mankind can be governed, when that little wisdom is its own."

[ElmarkOFear]

Thnx Vanya, puzz3d and methabaron, I will experiment with these things and see if they can accomplish what i want more quickly. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Link Shumeisan]

Elmark,
That group + alt key combo is working well to rotate all your army. It took me 2 monthes to find it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
But after grouping, don't forget to ungroup when you want to move more than one unit or you will have strange results as I had !
Train it in friendly or in custom battles http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The thing I dislike is that u can't say go there and rotate (or I didn't find that). you have to wait that your army go to the location b4 do the rotate thing and it's quite annoying to wait for all units to achieve their move there is always some bloody latecommers http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
It should be possible to do that by a shit+alt+right click combo !

BTW for the stats when pressing F1 now I have all my attack bonuses to 0 I think I didn't have that b4 or perhaps it was just in custom battles. Is that what you mean Methabaron ?

[ShaiHulud]

To face the army use the same method you would use with a single unit but do Ctr A first.

------------------
Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Hitodama]

No, no ,no....there's not all that Alt Crtl right doubleclick-thing.
All you have to do is: Group these units that you want to turn. E.g. you have made a fine line of archers and you want them to face another direction, but you want to keep the archer-line. Select all the archer-units in the line, AND group them. THEN move your grouped archers in that direction you want them to face (you click with the left mousebutton on the ground to the left or right), then the archers will move and make a line. See, very simple!

------------------
http://iserit.greennet.gl/ignatius/face.gif
....................................
All warfare is based on deception.

[Slychaos]

If you move a group line with just a left click sometimes they change the order of reform, i.e. squad will swap places like

1 2 3 becomes
1 3 2 this means movements become much longer.
If you use Alt they stay facing the same way, surely it is possible to accomplish both.

------------------
SlyChaos
HOST OF CHAOS (http://www.host-of-chaos.fsnet.co.uk)

[Hoichi]

Obake, don't know of Killer Katana's listing, but here's what I know (based on Turnbull's Samurai Armies - Osprey #86 and the Japanese instructions in a Tamia (sp?) plastic samurai kit.):

1 Ganko (Birds in Flight): a flexible deploment which can easily change as the situation develops. Missle troops all around, general in center.

2 Hoshi (arrowhead): highly moble, designed for rapid penetration through a fierce charge. Flanks lightly protected by YA and SA. Thinner screen of guns leads the vanguard.

3 Saku (keyhole): The best defense against the Hoshi. Six ranks of guns supported by two ranks of bows set up for a crossfire. Samurai in the shape of a keyhole surround the Taisho.

4 Kakuyoku (crane's wing): Best for surrounding the enemy. Lots of guns, bows and YA lead, followed by vanguard samuari to engage while more YS spread oout to envelope.
Looks deceptively like arrowhead from the front.

5 Koyaku (yoke): A flexible defense agains the crane's wing, but also good against the arrowhead. The vanguard holds the frontal attack while the others either assume keyhole or spread out against the crane's wing.

6 Gyorin (fish scales): for outnumbered attackers. A blunt arrowhead used to maintain sustained pressure against one sector.

That's it for the formations in STW. Many others existed, but seem to be mainly variations on the above, sometimes to conform to terrain or adjusted for size.

I have no scanner so could not post the diagrams which are well worth a look. STW does a fair approximation of them though -- within the limits of the game engine.

Deploy a historically balanced army (4 guns, 3 SA, 2 YA, 4 YS, 2 YC/HC & 1 Taisho) and run through the formations in custom and you'll come close to what the formations were supposed to do.

A couple of notes though:

Some historians debate whether these were really used in battle at all or where just some theoricatal parade ground drill. I think samaurai were too pragmatic to waste their time on something they couldn't use in battle.

At Kwanikajima, for example, Ueusgi using the Winding Wheel (karuma gakari)formation which rotates fresh troops into the front line, caught Takeda in a crane's wing formation (apparently a bad thing against the Winding Wheel. Takeda ordered a redeployment into another formation which I've forgotten, etc.

The point is, that armies could and did change formations during battle to counter each other. It's too bad we can't do that in STW. You get only one choice (though not many seem to use even that.) As for the other formation orders (1-9), they seem to be useless with all the unpredictable counter-marching, etc.

Hope this is usefull,

Hoichi

[Puzz3D]

hitodama,

It works well to select a small group, and click ahead to the left or right to turn them, but doing this with the whole army, as ElmarkOFear was asking, is very hard to get right. You have to estimate where you want the center of the formation to end up. In fact, the only use that I've found for rotating the entire army is if you are flanked by the enemy army. You can rotate to face the enemy.

Slychaos,

I've seen the reordering of units you're talking about, but only in custom battle as the attacker where you can't draw out your unit groups. When online, I'll group and drag the group into a line during deployment. Whatever reordering is going to take place seems to take place instantly at that time.

Link Shumeisan,

The F1 status screen was broken by the v1.11 patch, and not fixed in v1.12. I used to use it quite a bit when it worked. The mistake is something silly like honor value is not being added to column 1 (attack), but instead subtracted from column 2 (defense). I figured it out once, and posted about it, but I think that was on the old Sword Dojo. It would be nice to have it corrected.

Methabaron,

I wish I had a "windows" key to try it. Right now, my biggest problem with moving units around is missing the unit I want to click on. That makes the unit I just finished nicely positioning start moving to some completly rediculous spot. This can be a big problem if the game is lagging. I also just changed keyboards where the CTRL key is now where the ALT key used to be. Some fun! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

hoichi,

Interesting info on the formations.


MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Gorobei]

Anssi,

When I said Army Formations I meant just the Historical Formations, as opposed to the Group Formations. I think Army Formations would be the correct term. The AI isn't supposed to be using the them, for some reason.

And I was talking about being able to switch to one of the Army Formations after deployment. Maybe I start in Arrowhead, and see that Crane would fit the situation better. The Group Formations just don't do it for your whole army.