Cheetah
09-04-2002, 22:48
Author: Cheetah
Topic: The moral effect of the cavalry charge
_____________________________________________________________________________
Cheetah
The Guilds archivist
Posts: 432
From:Hungary
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 05-10-2002 12:24 AM
There is much discussion about the weakness of the cavalry charge in STW/MI (i.e. they should be able to break the lines, kill the enemy without stopping, etc.), however, I think that one crutial ingredient was not mentioned so far. IMO the cavalry charge should impose a moral penalty on the enemy in the same way as guns do. Of course, the value of this penalty should depend on the unit type. For example, there should be a considerable penalty for ranged units but an almost none-existent for Ysams. When a bunch of units stands together the penalty should be distributed over these units. So, by putting your Ysams close to gun units one could decrease the amount of penalty that the guns receive, etc. However, on the other hand, a lone, low honour gun unit should break and run even before the cavalry gets there. And when they run they should run! I dont want to imply that one should not be able to rally them at all, but it should be very difficult and time consuming.
IMO this change would render gun armies more vulnerable to cavalry heavy armies thus could lead to a more interesting (balanced???) game, even without the decrease of the power of guns (i.e. without the decrease of accuracy; increase of reload time, friendly fire, etc).
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-10-2002 12:37 AM
It would appear that your ideas have more a basis in gun emasculation than in any thing such as realism or history. Therefore it is possible for me to say that I personally dislike this idea simply because I do not feel it is the best way to bring guns into balance.
Matt
------------------
Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tac
Patron
Posts: 252
From:
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 05-10-2002 04:25 AM
I agree. Cavalry charge should rout missile and non-yari units quickly to compensate for the bs of an entire 120 man horse charge on wedge stopping the instant the 2nd or 3rd row of the wedge hit the enemy. IRL, the horses would punch through completely without stopping.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-10-2002 04:31 AM
Well, in my experience they do rout missle units quickly. I can recall an online game in which one moment I looked and there was my musketeers and the next I looked and there were no
musketeers instead there were a bunch of Yari Cav having the time of their life (this was a rather laggy game..).
He's basically saying that the near proximity of charging cavalry should cause missle units,
specifically those with guns, to wet their pants and have to go home and get clean clothes so
they are out of the battle for at least 15 minutes if home is nearby. This is merely a weird and
very difficult to implement "fix" for the gun problem, it has nothing to do with IRL.
Matt
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tac
Patron
Posts: 252
From:
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 05-10-2002 05:11 AM
go on custom battle, get 1 archer vs 1 yari cav.
Charge the yari cav on the archers in any formation. Wedge, close, loose, 1 row of 60, 10 rows of 6, even 2 rows of 30 men, on hold formation order, on engage at will... it still doesnt matter, the whole cavalry unit just STOPS when it hits the 3 row deep archer unit and its VERY hard to get the entire yari cav unit to really disengage from them, the units only really follow the unit leader.. if he stays (and duh, hes the one in the very front, he'll be engaged the whole time), they all stay. The Archers do not rout in this case, they stay and fight it out. The yari win in the end (for some weird reason, IRL a man on a stational horse holding only a spear on one side is very easy to cut down if you're holding a sword on foot.. think fighting inside a phone booth with a knife while the other guy has a spear), but they lose 1/4th of their men and kill 50% of the archers before they rout the archers.
Both were honor 2 units, no bonuses, on flat terrain.
This is why we say that the very notion of having a horse unit charging a foot unit that has no long spears (archers, no-dachi, monks, naginata) should make these units rout almost the instant the cavalry hits them. It would realistically portray the cavalry unit punching through their formation (by routing the entire unit breaks up and runs away) and not get "stuck" if a few of the horsemen remain fighting when you order the cavalry to feint a retreat (or retreat to flank another unit somewhere else). In short, the cavalry would be used AND have the effect they had in real life.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-10-2002 05:44 AM
AntiUnit.txt is a set of values the AI uses to decide what to bring to battle to counter certain
units.
---
Well, in six trials, of 60-man YC charging 3-deep 80-man SA, twice the SA routed almost
instantly, once the YC lost 23, once they lost 11, once they lost 4 and once they lost 5.
So basically this goes to further show why Shogun - Total War 2 is called Shogun - Total War 2. The link is in my sig.
Matt
------------------
Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Cheetah
The Guilds archivist
Posts: 432
From:Hungary
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 05-10-2002 04:39 PM
Here is my motivation for this mind-boggling proposal. Of course it comes form John Keegan. He writes in "The Face of the Battle" about the French cav charge at Waterloo:
Quote Practice against poorer troops had let them to expect a different result: a visible shiver of
uncertainty along the ranks of the waiting musketeers which would lend their horsemen
nerve for the last fifty yards, a ragged spatter of balls over their heads to signal the volley
mistimed, then a sudden collapse of resolution and disappearance of order - regiment
become drove, backs turned, heads hunched between shoulders, helot-fleet flying before
the faster hooves of the lords of the battle: this, in theory, should have been the effect of
such a charge. This process was more nearly realised in many places along Wellington's
front than the magnitude of the ultimate cavalry debacle suggests. "The first time a body
of cuirassiers approached the square into which I have ridden" (it was the 79th
Regiment's) wrote a Royal Engineer officer, "the men - all the young soldiers - seemed to
be alarmed. They fired high and with little effect, and in one of the angles there was just
as much hesitation as made me feel exceedingly uncomfortable." Morris, a sergeant of
71st, testifies to the power of the psychological shock-waves emitted by these mounted
onsets. … [/QUOTE]
Now, of course this is not exactly about the Sengoku Jidai period, but explain me, that why should the gun wielding ashigaru behave differently from their Napoleonic counterparts? I think that human nature is the same, and thus the psychological effect of the cavalry charge should be very much the same as well. Would you, Matt, expect these poor peasants -without any proper weapons to fight back at close range- to sit and wait till the cavalry guys get them, or to turn and make a run for it?
BTW, game balance was not my prime motivation when I posted this topic. Although I think that the game could be more balanced if this effect were incorporated in it, I started this topic because I do believe that the cav charge had this kind of moral effect.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
theforce
Kurayami no Kami
Posts: 2207
From:Larnaca,none,Cyprus
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 05-10-2002 04:53 PM
He has a point there. I mean some guns in 3v3 or 4v4 games are left alone and keep shooting at incoming cav even if they have no friendly unit near them. Now in real life they would run. To cut it short l would like each unit to have a morale penalty that is specific to the unit attacking it. Like cav would have a morale penalty from ys, yc etc Wm and nd from hc and this goes for every unit etc :P (lol l am bored). Also a unit should get different amounts of morale boost depending on which unit is near them and their numbers
------------------
Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Wavesword
Patron
Posts: 670
From:
Registered: Sep 2001
posted 05-10-2002 05:20 PM
Historically speaking there should be a parallell penalty for the rout of any unit with prestige- cf the guards at Waterloo or the elite french household cavalry by some English Dragoons in one of Marlbrough's battles- Blenhim I think.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Dionysus9
Patron
Posts: 322
From:Mount Olympus
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 05-10-2002 05:26 PM
Im not so sure that a full unit of musks would break and run in the face of a cav charge. I for one would stand and fire...running assures death. If you turn your back and TRY TO OUTRUN A FRIGGIN HORSE you are going to DIE. That's pretyt obvious to anyone. If you stand and fire, not "ineffectively high", but right at the damn cav, you have a chance.
Finally, I agree that making ranged units route faster is not a good fix. THE PROBLEM IS THAT UNIT MOVEMENT IS BASED ON THE UNIT LEADER.... fix that issue and the cav will be much more effective (guns will get cut down faster and will route as a result of casualties, not some "mystical fear" of horses). Of course unit movement is a big issue to fix....
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Cheetah
The Guilds archivist
Posts: 432
From:Hungary
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 05-10-2002 05:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Dionysus9:
I for one would stand and fire...running assures death. If you turn your back
and TRY TO OUTRUN A FRIGGIN HORSE you are going to DIE. That's pretyt
obvious to anyone. If you stand and fire, not "ineffectively high", but right at
the damn cav, you have a chance. [/QUOTE]
Dionysus9, you speak from experience and what you say might hold in case of experienced units. However, I was talking about low honour, i.e. unexperinced units. BTW, it is not a "mysterious fear", it comes from human nature. Try to stand up against a charging horseman. Finally, when you run the aim is not to outrun a horse, which is of course impossible, but to outrun your own comrades!!!! What a difference it makes!
Last but not least, I made a few test runs H0 Muskets vs H2 YC. Ironing board, good weather, 60 men units, etc:
Out of six trials I managed to rout the H2 YC three times! And when when the cav charged
home my H0 musketeers were willing to engage in a H2H fight with H2 YC!!!! On average the cav had to kill 17 musketeers before the musk turned and run. And these were H0 musketeers!!!!
Here are the results, kills/men lost from the point of view of my muskeeters:
11:19
17:0 (cav routed)
19:0 (cav routed)
17:18
19:0 (cav routed)
26:14
So, even when the YC were victorious they lost 1/3 of their menpower! And some wonders why gun armies are so powerful ...
Well, I have to add that the AI could have strated the charge earlier, so one can approach a Musk with smaller loses. However, this wont change the fact that even H0 musk are ready to fight against H2 YC , and that the cav have to kill at least 1/3 of the musks before they run.
[This message has been edited by Cheetah (edited 05-10-2002).]
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tac
Patron
Posts: 252
From:
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 05-10-2002 06:50 PM
No no khan you still dont understand. Look at what happens when the yari cav. hits the archers. A HORSE charge is stopped on its tracks by 2-3 rows of footmen. The footmen fight ON with the cavalry until they rout (an average of 5-10 seconds of fighting). In that time the cavalry unit is STUCK without being able to retreat. Im not questioning that the cavalry will rout the archers, I question the archer's ability to stop the horses for more than 2 seconds. No unit without long spears should be capable of doing that, yet in the game they can, its a hole in the game design.
Also, look at your test.. 1 cav. vs 1 archer. No other units around. In a fight vs AI or another decent player, there would be a yari sam/ashi unit near it. I use that hole in game design to trap enemy cavalry.. I let the other players charge my archers, when they get hit I order my archers back (about 5 to 10 archers stay behind getting creamed by the yari cav, but the majority of the archers run back a few dozen yards and get clear) at the same time my yari sams charge the cavalry..which CANT retreat because its STUCK fighting my 10 sacrificial archers I left behind. My yari then kill the entire horse unit.
NOW, if the archers were to ROUT when charged by cavalry in the same fashion as yari ashigaru honor 0 rout when attacking by honor 6 monks... then the cavalry would not be able to get stuck by spearless foot units... spearless foot units would not be able to stop the entire cavalry charge.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Dionysus9
Patron
Posts: 322
From:Mount Olympus
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 05-10-2002 07:04 PM
You are right Cheetah, that the goal of a single routing soldier is to simply outrun his comrades, that I'd probably get scared to see 60 YC chargin me, and also that inexperienced troops are more likely to shit their pants and run....
[Actually, the game design takes the latter into account as H5 Musks in HOLD will stand and fight cav for a long darn time (too long perhaps).]
Another major contributing factor to the problem-- Cavalry should not have any trouble
disengaging from foot soldiers (even spears, really). Back your horse up a few steps, turn and run...
Another issue-- Spears are most effective against a cav charge when planted in the ground and braced at an angle...this kills the horse, but what of the men? Some will be crushed by the falling horse, others taken out quickly as they try to get up--but not every man. I'd like to see some horsemen w/out horses running around making kills ... now THEY would have some trouble disengaging, but the rest of their unit (w/ horses) could still take off. High honor Ycav w/out horses could sacrifice themselves (they know they are dead anyway)so that their unit could disengage...
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-10-2002 07:04 PM
Frankly Cheetah your test is totally invalid. I just went and tried it myself-- the AI YC *walks*
through about half of the musket's range, thus exposing itself to many effective volleys. If they would CHARGE I am certain you would have no problem.
And the accounts of cavalry charges you are quoting are after the infantry in question is already under a great deal of stress, simple as that. If the muskets in question in STW were under a great deal of stress, their volleys WILL be ineffective (I've watched), and they WILL rout quickly, often before impact.
BTW those accounts are from PAST battles. AT Waterloo, when the infantry was NOT broken BEFORE the cavalry charge (though they were most certainly under stress), the cavalry charge failed (again and again, at great cost). So there ya go.
..
And the mere fact that in your tests the YC routed a couple times is proof enough that the
gunmen aren't exactly nuts for, well, sticking to their guns.
Also note that gunmen in the actual Sengoku period were generally veteran spearmen who had just switched weapons. Not green conscripts by any stretch.
Matt
------------------
Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Cheetah
The Guilds archivist
Posts: 432
From:Hungary
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 05-10-2002 08:56 PM
Khan7 , please reread the last few sentences of my previous post. I help you to find it:
Quote
Originally posted by Cheetah:
Well, I have to add that the AI could have strated the charge earlier, so one
can approach a Musk with smaller loses. However, this wont change the fact
that even H0 musk are ready to fight against H2 YC, and that the cav have to
kill at least 1/3 of the musks before they run. [/QUOTE]
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
MizuKokami
Patron
Posts: 103
From http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gifcean city, nj usa
Registered: Mar 2002
posted 05-10-2002 09:14 PM
surely there should be someway to disengage your calvary, besides routing them, when in melee. as for running threw enemy lines, everything i've heard of calvary is that they have the ability to trample over enemy units.(that is, any unit besides men with spears) i of course realize that my impression of calvary is probably due to too many movies, but still. maybe it can be set so that cav., when in melee, if their received to inflicted damgage ratio is high enough in favor of cav., they can continue to receive their charge bonus, and go a row deeper into the enemy lines. or, if that is too much/powerful for cav, their charge bonus could trickle down to half, then half that, and if the damage isn't high enough, for any reason, then they could get stuck. i realize that a change like that is probably not available for us, due to whatever reason. but one can hope.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
longjohn2
Patron
Posts: 52
From:UK
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 05-10-2002 09:16 PM
There is actually a morale penalty for infantry being charged by cavalry, especially if its charged in the flank or rear, or charged while disordered. If you do one on one tests with fresh units then the penalty won't make much of a difference, but if a unit is tired, has taken a few casualties from shooting, maybe has some enemy behinds its flank, then you will see units break before contact.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Dionysus9
Patron
Posts: 322
From:Mount Olympus
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 05-10-2002 09:36 PM
And if memory serves me correctly, that is coming directly from the horse's mouth!
Good to see that someone "in the know" is taking in interest in our conversation.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-10-2002 10:18 PM
Anyway, as far as Cavalry being able to disengage, I agree 1500% with you guys, have for
months, this used to be a major pet peeve/rant topic of mine. It's ridiculous the way it is now.
However, with STW2 the problem has been improved somewhat, to where Cav can *rout* and get away with only 4-10 men getting stabbed in the back. But hit and run cavalry tactics should be a reality, I'm fully with you on that point.
As for everything else, I would again direct your attention to the fact that with STW2 Archers
have a tendency to break on contact. Also, when I did my own YC vs. Musk tests, the Muskets, if the YC reached them, ALWAYS broke on contact.
However there is a long history of non-pikearmed soldiers standing up to cavalry. They didn't
always win, but they maintained their ranks and stood up to them. If it's really necessary I could pull a few historical examples, including one in which a bunch of unarmored rabble stood up to the finest and most feared cataphracts (and NO cavalry in Shogun is a cataphract) for an entire day (getting pushed back and back, taking very heavy losses).
And longjohn is quite right, pay attention to this guy.
Matt
------------------
Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Puzz3D
Clan Takiyama
Posts: 1099
From:Boston, MA, USA
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 05-10-2002 11:11 PM
Being able to disengage cav without loss is not the answer. That would mean the cav could
always get away from a stronger unit, such as YS, after it was caught and engaged. The way I look at it is that, once you send the cav in, it's committed to fight the enemy unit until it wins or looses.
The judgement you have to make before sending in the cav is one of timing: Cav charges a
ranged unit and engages them. A YS or YA is sent to kill the cav unit. How close that YS or YA has to be depends on how long it takes the cav to rout the ranged unit. Judging this relationship correctly is part of the game tactics. If you misjudge, you loose your cav. I can tell you that this wasn't even looked at during the v1.02 beta because there wasn't enough time. There is also no way to set morale such that a single gun will run before contact if charged by cav and have that gun be of any use in a full battle situation. The guns would run away very early in the battle.
Using YC to frontally attack guns is supposed to fail in v1.02. YC is better suited for flanking and anti-cav tactics. The NC with its higher morale, armor and combat power is better suited for frontal assaults. Giving this capacity to YC would make the NC obsolete.
The alternate stat we've been referring to as v1.03 has not altered guns very much in any one category except their defend value which has been lowered substantially so that, if a unit
succeeds in engaging the gun in h2h, the gun will rout very quickly.
I've seen a fresh, 60 man H2 unit of WM routed almost instantly by an H2 NC charging into its rear. The WM lost all 60 men while the NC lost none. I've routed many enemy units with rear cav charges in online games. My impression of the cav in v1.02 is that it's very strong.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 05-10-2002).]
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tac
Patron
Posts: 252
From:
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 05-11-2002 12:11 AM
dunno khan, i put the STW2 data of yours and my yari cav still is unable to rout an archer unit on contact. They always duke it out for 10 seconds or so.. mainly until 50% of the archers are dead, then they break for it.
"Being able to disengage cav without loss is not the answer. That would mean the cav could
always get away from a stronger unit, such as YS, after it was caught and engaged"
So the game isnt exactly modeling cavalry is it? Merely a fast unit with charge bonus and that
LOOKS like a horse? The whole point of cavalry was it being able to get in..and get out. Sadly, here they only get in, then they get IT because they all STOP.
Longjhon, if you involved with STW dev, kindly try to fix this next series of games, cavalry should really punch through an archer unit and keep moving, not just stop on their tracks. They should kill on the move, not move to enemy unit, stop, fight,move again.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-11-2002 01:09 AM
Of the six trials I ran, 3 I did with 5 deep instead of 6 deep YC. 2 of those, the Archers routed on contact.
Also you have to keep in mind Tac that YC really isn't that kind of Cav. They are not exactly
"light", but certainly not "heavy".. I suppose you could call them "medium" cav, though I think I just made that word up. Basically they are lancers, and lancers are not supposed to be super deadly. You're thinking of Cataphracts, especially cataphracts that happened to use lances. You're thinking of Heavy Cav.
I'm not sure what you're getting at anymore, but everyone's entitled to a an opinion.
Matt
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Papewaio
MTW forum moderator
Posts: 1764
From:Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001
posted 05-11-2002 11:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:
This is why we say that the very notion of having a horse unit charging a foot
unit that has no long spears (archers, no-dachi, monks, naginata) should make
these units rout almost the instant the cavalry hits them. It would realistically
portray the cavalry unit punching through their formation (by routing the
entire unit breaks up and runs away) and not get "stuck" if a few of the
horsemen remain fighting when you order the cavalry to feint a retreat (or
retreat to flank another unit somewhere else). In short, the cavalry would be
used AND have the effect they had in real life. [/QUOTE]
I thought No-Dachi were designed to fight mounted warriors... the idea was to cut the horse at the kneecaps at a distance. But I'd be willing to put that in the 99% of crap one reads on the internet.
Naginata are fairly good polearms so I wouldn't expect them to run. Some of them are really just short spears not curved. But at the same time I'd like to see non spear units punched through and hit harder. But that modeling should be done in MTW I hope.
Yari Calvary would be armed with swords so even after the initial charge I'm sure they can still slaughter SA close in.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tac
Patron
Posts: 252
From:
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 05-11-2002 03:00 PM
pape, a no-dachi or a naginata will NOT stop a cavalry charge. They will be able to inflict more casualties on the attacking cavalry than an archer unit of course, but not stop it dead on its tracks the way they do in the game.
Only a long spear like those of a yari sam/ashi are capable of stopping such a charge. thats my whole point. Even a naginata should get severe penalty when charged by a horse unit, ideally for the game they'd rout for 1 or 2 seconds then rally back in on their own (when the cavalry stops hitting them).
"the idea was to cut the horse at the kneecaps at a distance"
Distance? You seen how long a no-dachi is? You have any idea how fast a charging horse is? That no-dachi will have to be extremely good in his timing of the swing (and I still find a 120 man unit of no-dachi in close quarters being able to fight.. I mean, what they do? stab? hehe)... and even then he would only be able to cut 1 horse down before he gets skewered or trampled by another charging horse.. IF the horse he just cut down doesnt fall on top of him that is.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Puzz3D
Clan Takiyama
Posts: 1099
From:Boston, MA, USA
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 05-11-2002 03:27 PM
The cav in v1.02 has a huge charge bonus. A YS or YA unit cancels the charge, but all the other unit types get hit by it. The way to make use of this charge is not with the wedge, but by using a wide front. That way more men are involved in the initial contact. Also, wedge formation lowers a unit's defend value which means higher rate of casualties which accelerates loss of morale. That's going to make the cav tend to rout sooner.
I think the problem is more one of how the formations work than how cav works. The elastic force holding the men together is possibly too great. I definitely think hold formation is unrealistically rigid.
MizuYuuki ~~~
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Topic: The moral effect of the cavalry charge
_____________________________________________________________________________
Cheetah
The Guilds archivist
Posts: 432
From:Hungary
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 05-10-2002 12:24 AM
There is much discussion about the weakness of the cavalry charge in STW/MI (i.e. they should be able to break the lines, kill the enemy without stopping, etc.), however, I think that one crutial ingredient was not mentioned so far. IMO the cavalry charge should impose a moral penalty on the enemy in the same way as guns do. Of course, the value of this penalty should depend on the unit type. For example, there should be a considerable penalty for ranged units but an almost none-existent for Ysams. When a bunch of units stands together the penalty should be distributed over these units. So, by putting your Ysams close to gun units one could decrease the amount of penalty that the guns receive, etc. However, on the other hand, a lone, low honour gun unit should break and run even before the cavalry gets there. And when they run they should run! I dont want to imply that one should not be able to rally them at all, but it should be very difficult and time consuming.
IMO this change would render gun armies more vulnerable to cavalry heavy armies thus could lead to a more interesting (balanced???) game, even without the decrease of the power of guns (i.e. without the decrease of accuracy; increase of reload time, friendly fire, etc).
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-10-2002 12:37 AM
It would appear that your ideas have more a basis in gun emasculation than in any thing such as realism or history. Therefore it is possible for me to say that I personally dislike this idea simply because I do not feel it is the best way to bring guns into balance.
Matt
------------------
Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tac
Patron
Posts: 252
From:
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 05-10-2002 04:25 AM
I agree. Cavalry charge should rout missile and non-yari units quickly to compensate for the bs of an entire 120 man horse charge on wedge stopping the instant the 2nd or 3rd row of the wedge hit the enemy. IRL, the horses would punch through completely without stopping.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-10-2002 04:31 AM
Well, in my experience they do rout missle units quickly. I can recall an online game in which one moment I looked and there was my musketeers and the next I looked and there were no
musketeers instead there were a bunch of Yari Cav having the time of their life (this was a rather laggy game..).
He's basically saying that the near proximity of charging cavalry should cause missle units,
specifically those with guns, to wet their pants and have to go home and get clean clothes so
they are out of the battle for at least 15 minutes if home is nearby. This is merely a weird and
very difficult to implement "fix" for the gun problem, it has nothing to do with IRL.
Matt
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tac
Patron
Posts: 252
From:
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 05-10-2002 05:11 AM
go on custom battle, get 1 archer vs 1 yari cav.
Charge the yari cav on the archers in any formation. Wedge, close, loose, 1 row of 60, 10 rows of 6, even 2 rows of 30 men, on hold formation order, on engage at will... it still doesnt matter, the whole cavalry unit just STOPS when it hits the 3 row deep archer unit and its VERY hard to get the entire yari cav unit to really disengage from them, the units only really follow the unit leader.. if he stays (and duh, hes the one in the very front, he'll be engaged the whole time), they all stay. The Archers do not rout in this case, they stay and fight it out. The yari win in the end (for some weird reason, IRL a man on a stational horse holding only a spear on one side is very easy to cut down if you're holding a sword on foot.. think fighting inside a phone booth with a knife while the other guy has a spear), but they lose 1/4th of their men and kill 50% of the archers before they rout the archers.
Both were honor 2 units, no bonuses, on flat terrain.
This is why we say that the very notion of having a horse unit charging a foot unit that has no long spears (archers, no-dachi, monks, naginata) should make these units rout almost the instant the cavalry hits them. It would realistically portray the cavalry unit punching through their formation (by routing the entire unit breaks up and runs away) and not get "stuck" if a few of the horsemen remain fighting when you order the cavalry to feint a retreat (or retreat to flank another unit somewhere else). In short, the cavalry would be used AND have the effect they had in real life.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-10-2002 05:44 AM
AntiUnit.txt is a set of values the AI uses to decide what to bring to battle to counter certain
units.
---
Well, in six trials, of 60-man YC charging 3-deep 80-man SA, twice the SA routed almost
instantly, once the YC lost 23, once they lost 11, once they lost 4 and once they lost 5.
So basically this goes to further show why Shogun - Total War 2 is called Shogun - Total War 2. The link is in my sig.
Matt
------------------
Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Cheetah
The Guilds archivist
Posts: 432
From:Hungary
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 05-10-2002 04:39 PM
Here is my motivation for this mind-boggling proposal. Of course it comes form John Keegan. He writes in "The Face of the Battle" about the French cav charge at Waterloo:
Quote Practice against poorer troops had let them to expect a different result: a visible shiver of
uncertainty along the ranks of the waiting musketeers which would lend their horsemen
nerve for the last fifty yards, a ragged spatter of balls over their heads to signal the volley
mistimed, then a sudden collapse of resolution and disappearance of order - regiment
become drove, backs turned, heads hunched between shoulders, helot-fleet flying before
the faster hooves of the lords of the battle: this, in theory, should have been the effect of
such a charge. This process was more nearly realised in many places along Wellington's
front than the magnitude of the ultimate cavalry debacle suggests. "The first time a body
of cuirassiers approached the square into which I have ridden" (it was the 79th
Regiment's) wrote a Royal Engineer officer, "the men - all the young soldiers - seemed to
be alarmed. They fired high and with little effect, and in one of the angles there was just
as much hesitation as made me feel exceedingly uncomfortable." Morris, a sergeant of
71st, testifies to the power of the psychological shock-waves emitted by these mounted
onsets. … [/QUOTE]
Now, of course this is not exactly about the Sengoku Jidai period, but explain me, that why should the gun wielding ashigaru behave differently from their Napoleonic counterparts? I think that human nature is the same, and thus the psychological effect of the cavalry charge should be very much the same as well. Would you, Matt, expect these poor peasants -without any proper weapons to fight back at close range- to sit and wait till the cavalry guys get them, or to turn and make a run for it?
BTW, game balance was not my prime motivation when I posted this topic. Although I think that the game could be more balanced if this effect were incorporated in it, I started this topic because I do believe that the cav charge had this kind of moral effect.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
theforce
Kurayami no Kami
Posts: 2207
From:Larnaca,none,Cyprus
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 05-10-2002 04:53 PM
He has a point there. I mean some guns in 3v3 or 4v4 games are left alone and keep shooting at incoming cav even if they have no friendly unit near them. Now in real life they would run. To cut it short l would like each unit to have a morale penalty that is specific to the unit attacking it. Like cav would have a morale penalty from ys, yc etc Wm and nd from hc and this goes for every unit etc :P (lol l am bored). Also a unit should get different amounts of morale boost depending on which unit is near them and their numbers
------------------
Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Wavesword
Patron
Posts: 670
From:
Registered: Sep 2001
posted 05-10-2002 05:20 PM
Historically speaking there should be a parallell penalty for the rout of any unit with prestige- cf the guards at Waterloo or the elite french household cavalry by some English Dragoons in one of Marlbrough's battles- Blenhim I think.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Dionysus9
Patron
Posts: 322
From:Mount Olympus
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 05-10-2002 05:26 PM
Im not so sure that a full unit of musks would break and run in the face of a cav charge. I for one would stand and fire...running assures death. If you turn your back and TRY TO OUTRUN A FRIGGIN HORSE you are going to DIE. That's pretyt obvious to anyone. If you stand and fire, not "ineffectively high", but right at the damn cav, you have a chance.
Finally, I agree that making ranged units route faster is not a good fix. THE PROBLEM IS THAT UNIT MOVEMENT IS BASED ON THE UNIT LEADER.... fix that issue and the cav will be much more effective (guns will get cut down faster and will route as a result of casualties, not some "mystical fear" of horses). Of course unit movement is a big issue to fix....
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Cheetah
The Guilds archivist
Posts: 432
From:Hungary
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 05-10-2002 05:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Dionysus9:
I for one would stand and fire...running assures death. If you turn your back
and TRY TO OUTRUN A FRIGGIN HORSE you are going to DIE. That's pretyt
obvious to anyone. If you stand and fire, not "ineffectively high", but right at
the damn cav, you have a chance. [/QUOTE]
Dionysus9, you speak from experience and what you say might hold in case of experienced units. However, I was talking about low honour, i.e. unexperinced units. BTW, it is not a "mysterious fear", it comes from human nature. Try to stand up against a charging horseman. Finally, when you run the aim is not to outrun a horse, which is of course impossible, but to outrun your own comrades!!!! What a difference it makes!
Last but not least, I made a few test runs H0 Muskets vs H2 YC. Ironing board, good weather, 60 men units, etc:
Out of six trials I managed to rout the H2 YC three times! And when when the cav charged
home my H0 musketeers were willing to engage in a H2H fight with H2 YC!!!! On average the cav had to kill 17 musketeers before the musk turned and run. And these were H0 musketeers!!!!
Here are the results, kills/men lost from the point of view of my muskeeters:
11:19
17:0 (cav routed)
19:0 (cav routed)
17:18
19:0 (cav routed)
26:14
So, even when the YC were victorious they lost 1/3 of their menpower! And some wonders why gun armies are so powerful ...
Well, I have to add that the AI could have strated the charge earlier, so one can approach a Musk with smaller loses. However, this wont change the fact that even H0 musk are ready to fight against H2 YC , and that the cav have to kill at least 1/3 of the musks before they run.
[This message has been edited by Cheetah (edited 05-10-2002).]
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tac
Patron
Posts: 252
From:
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 05-10-2002 06:50 PM
No no khan you still dont understand. Look at what happens when the yari cav. hits the archers. A HORSE charge is stopped on its tracks by 2-3 rows of footmen. The footmen fight ON with the cavalry until they rout (an average of 5-10 seconds of fighting). In that time the cavalry unit is STUCK without being able to retreat. Im not questioning that the cavalry will rout the archers, I question the archer's ability to stop the horses for more than 2 seconds. No unit without long spears should be capable of doing that, yet in the game they can, its a hole in the game design.
Also, look at your test.. 1 cav. vs 1 archer. No other units around. In a fight vs AI or another decent player, there would be a yari sam/ashi unit near it. I use that hole in game design to trap enemy cavalry.. I let the other players charge my archers, when they get hit I order my archers back (about 5 to 10 archers stay behind getting creamed by the yari cav, but the majority of the archers run back a few dozen yards and get clear) at the same time my yari sams charge the cavalry..which CANT retreat because its STUCK fighting my 10 sacrificial archers I left behind. My yari then kill the entire horse unit.
NOW, if the archers were to ROUT when charged by cavalry in the same fashion as yari ashigaru honor 0 rout when attacking by honor 6 monks... then the cavalry would not be able to get stuck by spearless foot units... spearless foot units would not be able to stop the entire cavalry charge.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Dionysus9
Patron
Posts: 322
From:Mount Olympus
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 05-10-2002 07:04 PM
You are right Cheetah, that the goal of a single routing soldier is to simply outrun his comrades, that I'd probably get scared to see 60 YC chargin me, and also that inexperienced troops are more likely to shit their pants and run....
[Actually, the game design takes the latter into account as H5 Musks in HOLD will stand and fight cav for a long darn time (too long perhaps).]
Another major contributing factor to the problem-- Cavalry should not have any trouble
disengaging from foot soldiers (even spears, really). Back your horse up a few steps, turn and run...
Another issue-- Spears are most effective against a cav charge when planted in the ground and braced at an angle...this kills the horse, but what of the men? Some will be crushed by the falling horse, others taken out quickly as they try to get up--but not every man. I'd like to see some horsemen w/out horses running around making kills ... now THEY would have some trouble disengaging, but the rest of their unit (w/ horses) could still take off. High honor Ycav w/out horses could sacrifice themselves (they know they are dead anyway)so that their unit could disengage...
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-10-2002 07:04 PM
Frankly Cheetah your test is totally invalid. I just went and tried it myself-- the AI YC *walks*
through about half of the musket's range, thus exposing itself to many effective volleys. If they would CHARGE I am certain you would have no problem.
And the accounts of cavalry charges you are quoting are after the infantry in question is already under a great deal of stress, simple as that. If the muskets in question in STW were under a great deal of stress, their volleys WILL be ineffective (I've watched), and they WILL rout quickly, often before impact.
BTW those accounts are from PAST battles. AT Waterloo, when the infantry was NOT broken BEFORE the cavalry charge (though they were most certainly under stress), the cavalry charge failed (again and again, at great cost). So there ya go.
..
And the mere fact that in your tests the YC routed a couple times is proof enough that the
gunmen aren't exactly nuts for, well, sticking to their guns.
Also note that gunmen in the actual Sengoku period were generally veteran spearmen who had just switched weapons. Not green conscripts by any stretch.
Matt
------------------
Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Cheetah
The Guilds archivist
Posts: 432
From:Hungary
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 05-10-2002 08:56 PM
Khan7 , please reread the last few sentences of my previous post. I help you to find it:
Quote
Originally posted by Cheetah:
Well, I have to add that the AI could have strated the charge earlier, so one
can approach a Musk with smaller loses. However, this wont change the fact
that even H0 musk are ready to fight against H2 YC, and that the cav have to
kill at least 1/3 of the musks before they run. [/QUOTE]
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
MizuKokami
Patron
Posts: 103
From http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gifcean city, nj usa
Registered: Mar 2002
posted 05-10-2002 09:14 PM
surely there should be someway to disengage your calvary, besides routing them, when in melee. as for running threw enemy lines, everything i've heard of calvary is that they have the ability to trample over enemy units.(that is, any unit besides men with spears) i of course realize that my impression of calvary is probably due to too many movies, but still. maybe it can be set so that cav., when in melee, if their received to inflicted damgage ratio is high enough in favor of cav., they can continue to receive their charge bonus, and go a row deeper into the enemy lines. or, if that is too much/powerful for cav, their charge bonus could trickle down to half, then half that, and if the damage isn't high enough, for any reason, then they could get stuck. i realize that a change like that is probably not available for us, due to whatever reason. but one can hope.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
longjohn2
Patron
Posts: 52
From:UK
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 05-10-2002 09:16 PM
There is actually a morale penalty for infantry being charged by cavalry, especially if its charged in the flank or rear, or charged while disordered. If you do one on one tests with fresh units then the penalty won't make much of a difference, but if a unit is tired, has taken a few casualties from shooting, maybe has some enemy behinds its flank, then you will see units break before contact.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Dionysus9
Patron
Posts: 322
From:Mount Olympus
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 05-10-2002 09:36 PM
And if memory serves me correctly, that is coming directly from the horse's mouth!
Good to see that someone "in the know" is taking in interest in our conversation.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-10-2002 10:18 PM
Anyway, as far as Cavalry being able to disengage, I agree 1500% with you guys, have for
months, this used to be a major pet peeve/rant topic of mine. It's ridiculous the way it is now.
However, with STW2 the problem has been improved somewhat, to where Cav can *rout* and get away with only 4-10 men getting stabbed in the back. But hit and run cavalry tactics should be a reality, I'm fully with you on that point.
As for everything else, I would again direct your attention to the fact that with STW2 Archers
have a tendency to break on contact. Also, when I did my own YC vs. Musk tests, the Muskets, if the YC reached them, ALWAYS broke on contact.
However there is a long history of non-pikearmed soldiers standing up to cavalry. They didn't
always win, but they maintained their ranks and stood up to them. If it's really necessary I could pull a few historical examples, including one in which a bunch of unarmored rabble stood up to the finest and most feared cataphracts (and NO cavalry in Shogun is a cataphract) for an entire day (getting pushed back and back, taking very heavy losses).
And longjohn is quite right, pay attention to this guy.
Matt
------------------
Shogun 2 has arrived! Check it out here.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Puzz3D
Clan Takiyama
Posts: 1099
From:Boston, MA, USA
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 05-10-2002 11:11 PM
Being able to disengage cav without loss is not the answer. That would mean the cav could
always get away from a stronger unit, such as YS, after it was caught and engaged. The way I look at it is that, once you send the cav in, it's committed to fight the enemy unit until it wins or looses.
The judgement you have to make before sending in the cav is one of timing: Cav charges a
ranged unit and engages them. A YS or YA is sent to kill the cav unit. How close that YS or YA has to be depends on how long it takes the cav to rout the ranged unit. Judging this relationship correctly is part of the game tactics. If you misjudge, you loose your cav. I can tell you that this wasn't even looked at during the v1.02 beta because there wasn't enough time. There is also no way to set morale such that a single gun will run before contact if charged by cav and have that gun be of any use in a full battle situation. The guns would run away very early in the battle.
Using YC to frontally attack guns is supposed to fail in v1.02. YC is better suited for flanking and anti-cav tactics. The NC with its higher morale, armor and combat power is better suited for frontal assaults. Giving this capacity to YC would make the NC obsolete.
The alternate stat we've been referring to as v1.03 has not altered guns very much in any one category except their defend value which has been lowered substantially so that, if a unit
succeeds in engaging the gun in h2h, the gun will rout very quickly.
I've seen a fresh, 60 man H2 unit of WM routed almost instantly by an H2 NC charging into its rear. The WM lost all 60 men while the NC lost none. I've routed many enemy units with rear cav charges in online games. My impression of the cav in v1.02 is that it's very strong.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 05-10-2002).]
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tac
Patron
Posts: 252
From:
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 05-11-2002 12:11 AM
dunno khan, i put the STW2 data of yours and my yari cav still is unable to rout an archer unit on contact. They always duke it out for 10 seconds or so.. mainly until 50% of the archers are dead, then they break for it.
"Being able to disengage cav without loss is not the answer. That would mean the cav could
always get away from a stronger unit, such as YS, after it was caught and engaged"
So the game isnt exactly modeling cavalry is it? Merely a fast unit with charge bonus and that
LOOKS like a horse? The whole point of cavalry was it being able to get in..and get out. Sadly, here they only get in, then they get IT because they all STOP.
Longjhon, if you involved with STW dev, kindly try to fix this next series of games, cavalry should really punch through an archer unit and keep moving, not just stop on their tracks. They should kill on the move, not move to enemy unit, stop, fight,move again.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Khan7
Patron
Posts: 1733
From:.
Registered: Jul 2001
posted 05-11-2002 01:09 AM
Of the six trials I ran, 3 I did with 5 deep instead of 6 deep YC. 2 of those, the Archers routed on contact.
Also you have to keep in mind Tac that YC really isn't that kind of Cav. They are not exactly
"light", but certainly not "heavy".. I suppose you could call them "medium" cav, though I think I just made that word up. Basically they are lancers, and lancers are not supposed to be super deadly. You're thinking of Cataphracts, especially cataphracts that happened to use lances. You're thinking of Heavy Cav.
I'm not sure what you're getting at anymore, but everyone's entitled to a an opinion.
Matt
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Papewaio
MTW forum moderator
Posts: 1764
From:Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Sep 2001
posted 05-11-2002 11:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:
This is why we say that the very notion of having a horse unit charging a foot
unit that has no long spears (archers, no-dachi, monks, naginata) should make
these units rout almost the instant the cavalry hits them. It would realistically
portray the cavalry unit punching through their formation (by routing the
entire unit breaks up and runs away) and not get "stuck" if a few of the
horsemen remain fighting when you order the cavalry to feint a retreat (or
retreat to flank another unit somewhere else). In short, the cavalry would be
used AND have the effect they had in real life. [/QUOTE]
I thought No-Dachi were designed to fight mounted warriors... the idea was to cut the horse at the kneecaps at a distance. But I'd be willing to put that in the 99% of crap one reads on the internet.
Naginata are fairly good polearms so I wouldn't expect them to run. Some of them are really just short spears not curved. But at the same time I'd like to see non spear units punched through and hit harder. But that modeling should be done in MTW I hope.
Yari Calvary would be armed with swords so even after the initial charge I'm sure they can still slaughter SA close in.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tac
Patron
Posts: 252
From:
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 05-11-2002 03:00 PM
pape, a no-dachi or a naginata will NOT stop a cavalry charge. They will be able to inflict more casualties on the attacking cavalry than an archer unit of course, but not stop it dead on its tracks the way they do in the game.
Only a long spear like those of a yari sam/ashi are capable of stopping such a charge. thats my whole point. Even a naginata should get severe penalty when charged by a horse unit, ideally for the game they'd rout for 1 or 2 seconds then rally back in on their own (when the cavalry stops hitting them).
"the idea was to cut the horse at the kneecaps at a distance"
Distance? You seen how long a no-dachi is? You have any idea how fast a charging horse is? That no-dachi will have to be extremely good in his timing of the swing (and I still find a 120 man unit of no-dachi in close quarters being able to fight.. I mean, what they do? stab? hehe)... and even then he would only be able to cut 1 horse down before he gets skewered or trampled by another charging horse.. IF the horse he just cut down doesnt fall on top of him that is.
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________
Puzz3D
Clan Takiyama
Posts: 1099
From:Boston, MA, USA
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 05-11-2002 03:27 PM
The cav in v1.02 has a huge charge bonus. A YS or YA unit cancels the charge, but all the other unit types get hit by it. The way to make use of this charge is not with the wedge, but by using a wide front. That way more men are involved in the initial contact. Also, wedge formation lowers a unit's defend value which means higher rate of casualties which accelerates loss of morale. That's going to make the cav tend to rout sooner.
I think the problem is more one of how the formations work than how cav works. The elastic force holding the men together is possibly too great. I definitely think hold formation is unrealistically rigid.
MizuYuuki ~~~
IP: Logged
_____________________________________________________________________________