Poland

[PoLsKa_HuSaRiA]

Poland: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Need I say more? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Through three periods in the MTW campaign it stays the same? The poor guys constantly get smashed from either side but always manage to fight back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Just out of curiosity does anyone play the Polish team in MTW (i do) and i was wondering if anyone had any good tactics that i could employ when playing. I usually just quickly expand to the west by bribing the rebels and simultaneously attacking adjacent rebel provinces. I then proceed to quickly take all the rebel provinces South of Novogrod. Thats the best tactic that works for me, but i was wondering if anyone else had any other tactics that might make the campaign a little bit more interesting. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Also, I was wondering if anyone knows why Poland cannot build chapter houses - is this based on historical occurences or did the game developers decide to do that... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Well, if you are looking for adventure, go capture Prussia and/or Moldavia, build ports, ships and then go on your great adventure to conquer Britain or Egypt http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[PoLsKa_HuSaRiA]

Hehehe... i like, i like... (Here i come Britain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Jxrc]

Not an expert but I think taking Sweden asap is the key.

It once worked for me to attack Hungary early. It's a boring battles during which you have to chase horse archers with spearmen but it worth a try since Hungary is one pretty nice province. The draw back is that you get a border with a potentially troublesome neighbour (Byzantines or in my case the Turks)

I once tried to conquer Russia early but it proved to be difficult and expensive since even if you get rid of the people of Novgorod you have to maintain sizeable garrison without making a lot of florins ...


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[KukriKhan]

Playing Poland is definitely a challenge. What worked for me is playing the 'trade game', i.e.: try to grab Lithuania, Kiev & Sweden as soon as possible; ignore Novgorod prov's...they don't make much $$ and you can get them cheap later. Make nice with the Byz & Germans as soon as possible, and don't over-extend. Build trade, agri & ships until you have at least 50K florin saved up & 2K florin coming in per year. Then start a military buildup, beginning with spears & horse farmers. Resist the urge to go to Prussia and Pomerania until you're financially stable and militarily strong. When you ARE strong, pick off rebel provinces as they pop up, avoiding direct conflict with other catholics. Keep cranking out ships (you'll need them mid-campaign for the inevitable war with the Byz). Keep the Russians & Byz as a buffer between you & Khazar, where the Mongols will pop up mid-1200's.

Mid-campaign you'll need at least 300K florin saved up to effectively deal with your enemies, so keep working the trade routes as long as possible. When your jealous neighbors start attacking you, try to take them on 1-at-a-time. Spank them, but don't kill them. Let them sit in a decimated province forever, instead of killing them off, so they don't re-emerge later in a distant rebel province with 7,000 or so good soldiers.

End-campaign (1300's on) accept that you will have few friends and many enemies, and that you'll have to kill the pope (repeatedly). That was tough for me: making the switch from 'nice ally' (early & mid-game) to 'ruthless SOB'. With your enemies surrounded in single provinves and the pope out of the way (to prevent excommunication & the resulting catholic rebellions in your own provinces) pick a year before you run out of cash (you'll only be trading with yourself by then, and have huge armies to feed - your treasury will be hemouragging florins like a stuck pig) attack your strongest enemy, working your way down each turn/year to the weakest.

Through it all, the prospect of Polish being the national language of Britain kept me going. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[PoLsKa_HuSaRiA]

Hmm... Interesting post KukriKhan... Ive never tried that kind of a tactic. However i see you point as i found many a time that my forces where too stretched out resulting in revolts and many an attacked province. However I really like your idea of attacking the Hungarians... They really piss me off... (game wise) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif Does anyone perhaps know why Poland cannot build chapter houses? Bit unfair that they are catholic yet cannot build crusades... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

A crusade would sure come in handy against some of those pesky factions...

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (PoLsKa_HuSaRiA @ Feb. 27 2003,03:57)]Does anyone perhaps know why Poland cannot build chapter houses? Bit unfair that they are catholic yet cannot build crusades... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
The Poles and the Danes are not allowed to make crusades, and therefore don't get to build chapter houses. This is because these nations historically didn't launch crusades, so to keep some historical accuracy they don't get to do it in the game.

[Asus]

Where are the Polish Hussars???

[SmokWawelski]

Quote[/b] ]Where are the Polish Hussars???

Yeah, where are they? Although you have to remember that they appeared later in the history, so the time frame is not really going to incorporate their golden age.

As far as playing Polish SP I tried once and it was very hard: I died in the late period due to broken economy... The provinces are really poor in that part of the map and need lots of troops to stay in line....

Nice to see polish folks on the board

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[MacGregor]

I had a good run going as the poles once. I use WesW's mod's whenever he comes out with a new one which might change the story since I guess most of you are playing on regular MTW. But back to the story. I actually managed to have a great Empire as Poland. The HRE caved into civil war so I got about 1/2 of their land, then pushed east. I met the golden horde in a few massives battles, but managed to kill their only Khan and save my Empire from being overrun. I haven't gone any further yet though.

If you can keep a low profile and don't provoke large powers into war you can usually make it. I did all my exapansion against rebels and only took other faction's lands when they where in rebellion. If your lucky you can amass a good empire without ever having to face off against an AI faction. The first few years are tough because of you limited economic compacity, but if you can get through that vunerable time you should be able to make it.

[Asus]

Where are the Polish Hussars???


Yeah, where are they? Although you have to remember that they appeared later in the history, so the time frame is not really going to incorporate their golden age.

From what I understand Polish Hussars would fit into the late period of Medieval no?

I also understand that Polish and any east euro horse and foot should be a little different from the rest of europe anyway. It seems as if the devs felt there was only time to carbon copy units for the eastern euros such as, Poles, Hungarians and Rus since the focus seems to be set slightly more on western Europe rather than the whole picture of that world at that time.

Alan and generic horse archers aren't a good representation of the differences, plus they're available to almost everyone which takes away from individualistic aspect of the eastern euros.

[TanDaraDei]

Actually, the Hussars came around a bit later, XVI century I guess. However, what I'd love to see would be a specific heavy cav unit in the late period. If I remember correctly at Tannenberg (or Grunwald)in the critical point of the battle two banners (squadrons) of Polish heavy knights held the charge of more than 10 banners of Teutonic Knights elite led by Ulryk von Jungingen himself. This means that these guys must had been much tougher than Chiv Knights - the strongest cav unit available for Poland. And the games late period is the time the Polish cavalary really started to rock thus it would be nice if there was some indication of that (c'mon in MTW Poland starts really crappy, so they should get en edge of some sort.

As for the campaign, I started my first one in early with Poland. I went south east to capture moldavia, east for volhynia and in the meantime i pumped Polish Retainers like crazy. Then i captured pomerania in order to cut the HRE from the eastward expansion. After couple of periods when the new provinces were secured went further east all the way to khazar than north for novogrod, than hungarians and so on and so forth. Thus i think that Polish campaign can be really fun (though challenging) provided you keep the hre at bay. For me a strong army with lot's of retainers did the trick, as in the beginning hre can not do much more but field a lot of spearmen. With Polish retainers its quite easy to flank them.

[Gregoshi]

Greetings and welcome to the Org TanDaraDei. Thanks for joining the Org.

[SmokWawelski]

As to Grunwald: Let's talk determination. I do not think that the Polish cav was better, better equiped or trained. From what I know Polish were outnumbered, positioned downhill from the Order and had a large number of woodsmen and all that unworthy troops.

What they did have however was determination and the will to win. Also, King Jagiello was not engaged in the battle himself, but was ordering his troops from a safe position, which was a novelty on the battlefield, taken from the Turks or the likes.

As far as the superior Polish cav, they appeared later, not 15 centiry (Grunwald was fought during the Summer 1410). And indeed, at the time when western europe cav was beeing decimated by gunpowder units, Polish cav was able to engage such formations, even spears with very little losses, due to their skills and equipment (longer than usual lances).

I assume that I messed up some facts, but this is the truth as I know it.

[Snowhobbit]

I dislike the Polish, they have such a boring units

[TanDaraDei]

Gregoshi - thnx for the welcome

Snowhobbit - i agree, that's why a nice heavy cav unit would add some fun

As to Grunwald - of course determination was a factor, but from the perspective of the Order - i guess they were highly determined if the Grand Master led the charge himself. True that the tactical command of the Polish-Lithuanian side was far superior to the one of the Order AFAIK the Order made good preparations but was outwitted by Jagiello and ended up in a head on charge. However this charge, according to all ods should have broken the Polish formation. It didn't cause the Polish banners of heaviest knights held the ground. That's why I'm thinking about such a hevy cav unit. I'd agree that generally not all the Polish heavy cav of that time were superior to western (in many cases they were weaker) but Poland had some squadrons of really tough cav and this could be reflected in MTW. Anyway, I think that at least Tannenberg/Grunwald battle should be created for the Historical battles section, compared to it Agincourt was a mere skirmish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Siena]

Where do you guys take the idea that Poles were outnumbered at Griunvald from?

[Siena]

From what I know the alied army of Poles and Lithuanians outnumbered Teutonic army.

And if you are talking about the period when Lithuanians withdrew and before they returned, then still Teutons hardly outnumbered alies.
First of all, not all Lithuanians withdrew, because otherwise Poles would have been surrounded (also, even Dlugosh mentions that Smolensk regiments -that were part of Lithuanian army- remained). Besides, part of Teutonic army was drawn from battle pursuing Lithuanians, and I guess it was not a small part because there were about 11000 Lithuanians there. So even if not all of them participated in the beggining of the battle, there must have been enough to fool Germans to think that they have beaten Lithaunians when these withdrew. And we know that Germans pursued, because a few sources mention that (at least: Dlugosh in his way, and also a letter to Teutonic Master written soon after battle). Also one of the sources (the letter) warns against pursuing Lithuanians when they appear to be running. So we know that the pursuit did not end well either.

It is difficult to discuss exact numbers, because they are only guesses anyway, but newest estimates are about 18-19 thousand Poles, 11 thousand Lithuanians and 20-22 thousand Teutons.
So lets say 6-7 thousand Lithuanians in the beginning withdrew, then at least 3-4 thousand Teutons had to pursue them (also this is after 1-2 hours of battle, so there must have been casualties).
So 16-18 thousand Teutons left against 18-19 thousand Poles and 3-4 thousand Russians and Lithuanians. No way, Poles were left outnumbered.
And this is before main force of Lithuanians came back.

[SmokWawelski]

I think that you have some very good ponts there Siena. What I was thinking though when I said that was worthy troops, not the plebs that was fighting on our side. I think that most, if not all of the Order soldiers were high-quality troops, with some of the best cavalry from the western Europe and Germany that came to support the Order vs. whatever Poles could gater in the field.
I do not know how can you translate number of people into numer of troops, but I am sure that one, let's call them Order soldier was worth more than one Polish counterpart...

This is what I meant by my outnumer. Other than that, you are right....

As far as making the Grunwald into a historical battle, I would love to see that. For soem interested people there was a board game, about 7-10 years ago designed to portrait only that single match of Titans... It was available in Poland though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Siena]

SmokWawelski,
like I said, there is no way to know exact number of troops. I am just citing estimates that most of today's historians agree upon (note - the fact that some of them agree on it, still does not make numbers true; in fact - not even people that commanded the armies probably knew how many people they had exactly).

As for quality of troops - it is also difficult to say. I know that Lithuania had send the best soldiers they had to Griunvald. In fact, Vytautas spread rumours that he was going to attack Prussia from the East and therefore some Teutonic regiments were garding border with Lithuania and so were not at Griunvald. But also, that left Lithuania pretty much undefended, as Vytautas secretly marched with best soldiers to Poland.
Also, Lithuanians were fighting Teutons for the last 200 years, I bet they knew exactly what to expect from Teutons. Besides that, my common sense says that Lithuanian soldiers were very experienced, because Lithuania knew no peace for a while.
Still, there is no doubt that average Lithuanian soldier had worse equipment than everage Teuton soldier - by this I mean that Teutons had more heavy cavalry and knights. But most of Teuton soldiers probably had similar equipment like Poles or Lithuanians.
Certainly not all Teutonic army consistet of knights. Most of the army were common soldiers that probably were not different from Poles or Lithuanians.
However, as motivation of common Teuton soldier was economical, the motivation of average Lithuanian was a deep hate for Germans, that were burning Lithuania for hundreds of years.

[PoLsKa_HuSaRiA]

Regarding the battle in Grunwald:

These facts are based on history books (not exact figures)

The Teutonic Knights had approx. :

- 20,000 cavalry
- 10,000 foot

The Polish army had approx. :

- 18,000 Polish cavalry
- 10,000 Lithuanian Cavalry
- 1,500 Tartars
- 3,000-4,000 Mercenary foot - mostly Czechs from Bohemia
- 11,000 other infantry

Total Teutonic: 30,000
Total Polish: 40,000

However, the Polish foot was considered to be of very poor quality, only useful in sieges and as missile troops. The Polish cavalry was well armoured, disciplined and of excellent quality. The Lithuanians were undisciplined and poorly armored compared to their Polish allies, however they were battle-hardened campaigners trained in the light-cavalry tactics of the Mongols. However, this army was nothing compared to the Teutonic's well disciplined, highly organised and well armed army. The fact that the Polish army outnumbered the Teutonics did not make that much of a difference. The main factor in the battle was that the Polish army were fighting against a most hated foe which was seeking to conquer their home-land.

[Siena]

PoLsKa_HuSaRiA,

I am not going to argue about numbers, because these are estimates.

However a few points:
First of all, Lithuanian army and Polish army were different entities.
Griunvald was probably first majot battle, when Polish and Lithuanian armies were fighting together.
The Tartars were part of Lithuanian army.

Moreover, I think the statement that Lithuanians were undisciplined is not true.
Firt of all, Lithuanians were much more experienced in battle than most Poles, and for the simple reason - they knew no peace for hundreds of years, while Poles lived in peace with Teutons most of the time.
Also, Lithuanians were more disciplined for another simple reason - they all recognised the Grand Duke as supreme commander and were not inclined to impetuous charges as Western knights were.
Also, experience and discipline goes together.
And one more thing - there are some records about how some Hungarian observed how alies crossed some river going into Prussia before Griunvald, and it described Lithuanian army someting like: then in ordered lines Lithuanian army marched by.

As for poorly armored argument - that is probably right, because armor was expensive.
However, still - Lithuanian tactics were not relying on armored push. And those tactics worked, for Lithuania was not conquered by Germans in 200 years before Griunvald - even though Polish knights also participated in Crusades against Lithaunia.
Also, in most of known battles in open field Lithuanians have beaten Germans (the sieges were where Germans had main advantage) - so Lithuanian armor must have been adequeate.


The Germans had more heavy cavalry - no doubt, and their heavy cavalry was better, but the Polish - Lithuanian army had iniciative and better tactics.
Don't forget that alies arrived to battlefield first, and rested there, while Germans had marched in the rain to get there. Then on the day of the battle, alies were waiting for Germans (heavily armored http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif) to get even more tired in the hot weather... That was why Germans sent those swords to Vytautas and Jogaila to provoke them. They could not wait in heavy armor and in hot sun...

[TanDaraDei]

I completely agree with the above, however IMHO it should be noted that some of Polish heavy cav. squadrons (I believe the Crown Banner and the Lesser-Poland Banner)were actually better than the elite's of the Order and their western reinforcements. That was the reason, why in the critical point of the battle, when all the forces were engaged in melee, the simultaneous charge of numerous Order's reserves was halted. IMO in MTW terms this should be represented either by a special heavy cav. unit for Poland or by an extra valour for chiv. knights produced in Poland (at least +2 I'd say).

[Juan Madsen]

I am currently playing wiht the Poles and I started the campaign attacking and exterminating the hungarians. Then the neighbouring rebel provinces. At that point you may have good chances to survive untill the end. From them on I waited for the right moments and expanded first west and then south.

At certain moment things got complicated. I am in 1218 now and have been battling the english and the turks at the same time for almost 20 years. My main mistake up to this point was that I did not invest in the navy and now the english are making me pay that error. Also with the turks my lack of ships on the med had given me problems for some time.

Is a difficult faction. Most of the time you have land borders with four or more nations which may attack you all of a sudden with no mercy. This has been always a major historical problem of Poland.

[SmokWawelski]

As always I am interested in any conclusion, if one can be given at this time.... DO you guys feel like there can be some changes to the game to reflect the realities of polish campaign?

[PoLsKa_HuSaRiA]

Of course

We need Polish Hussars http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Or mayby some exlcusive Heavy Cav. units... and i mean Heavy... That should make things more interesting... and fair http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[PoLsKa_HuSaRiA]

Perhaps Poland should start off with more florins in the beginning. Throughout history they have relied heavily on mercenaries. Perhaps make more mercenaries available to Poland or make them begin with more florins... I really dont know. Anybody else have any good ideas?

[TanDaraDei]

Heavy Cav. Heavy Cav. and some more Heavy Cav. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'd also add some resources to Poland - at least salt - it would be historical and maybe beef up the agricultural output - Poland was a fertile land and gradually became a granary of Europe (though I agree that in XII century rather forests than amber fields of grain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif dominated the landscape).

Actually I am playing a pre-patch version and as I see on the forums with the patch Polish Retainers were moved to later periods. That is a real knock-out. It was THE unit that gave Poland some edge in early MTW campaigns and in the later period it may be treated at most as a support unit (unless they are valour 9 or something). Furthermore, I'd argue about the historical accuracy of such an action. If I'm correct Poland fielded organised cavalary units from the very beginning of its existence (X century) and a cavalary charge played a decisive role in the first major battle of the newborn state (Cedynia).

[Polish Crusader]

Well as they appear in my name its good that I have at least played them a few times. My name actually came from my fustration of not being able to figure out how to build a chapter house (they were my first catholic faciton).

Anyway, honestly I do not think they are that difficult. I have played them on the hardest difficulty setting. I normally just build up my provinces and then I slowly start to expand, looking especially for rebel provinces to conquer so I dont stir up too many AI factions. Also, if its the early period, I never ever build peasants. This might be a mistake but has worked well for me. Also, if its early, utilize your royal knights a lot, they can lay havok to many of the early period troops.

[Brutal DLX]

Hi Crusader, in the basic version of the game, the Polish can't build chapter houses (the Danes can't either), but you can mod the spreadsheet text file so that the Polish faction can build chapter houses. I suggest you take a look in the dungeon forum, I'm sure there will be some threads on how to exactly edit the files..

[Polish Crusader]

Hi,
Ya i found out that they couldn't build them from the forums. I never changed the files though, cause I think it puts them into a pretty unique situation and I believe it to be more historically accurate.

[Dîn-Heru]

Quote[/b] (Cazbol @ Feb. 27 2003,13:47)]
Quote[/b] (PoLsKa_HuSaRiA @ Feb. 27 2003,03:57)]Does anyone perhaps know why Poland cannot build chapter houses? Bit unfair that they are catholic yet cannot build crusades... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
The Poles and the Danes are not allowed to make crusades, and therefore don't get to build chapter houses. This is because these nations historically didn't launch crusades, so to keep some historical accuracy they don't get to do it in the game.
Denmark has launched crusades. They conquored Estonia in 1219. But they didn't launch any crusades to the middle-east, and it's probably therefore that they can't build chapter houses.

[Portuguese Rebel]

I think some of you guys are getting stuck in equipment discussions too much. This is probably a deformation caused by learning modern warfare facts.
In medieval/classical battles equipment was not the main factor at all. Most battles were decided by major morale swings. How many times have a smaller force crushed a bigger one in medieval times? In modern warfare this does not happen anymore, unless, by some reason, the major power is holding back (like in vietnam for the US , or afghanistan for the URSS).
I believe that in medieval battles good armors and weapons could make a difference but it would be the valour of people (meaning sheer bravery and combat experience) and the learderships ability to decide battles. Take the 100 yrs war between french and englishmen... the french were better equiped for sure, but their noblemen, who viewed war has their destiny, were nothing more than a bunch of fancy boys with shining armors that routed way too easy to be called some sort elite troops.

[Longasc]

Well said, Portuguese Rebel

I would have loved to be one of those fancy armored boys, telling stories of my bravery and victories after a rich meal, being courted by lots of high born chicks and so on...

It it not the bravery on the battlefield that brings personal profit, but what you make of the fact that you were actually there and survived somehow not so scarred and crippled...

That's boring, the battle is already lost Better luck another time

Mylord, we are being overrun by the English

Yea, I think I should play the English next time, too

Mylord, art thou well?

Begone, fool Do not get on my nerves

[Lehesu]

Actually, I think that Poland was slated to have crusades. In the old MTW, the txt files mentioned something like give Poland Brotherhood of Sword if Chapterhouse I posted this a long time ago, but I think that the Brotherhood was supposed to be their crusader knight unit and that they may have originally been designed for a crusader poland. Yet another funny unit, kinda like the unused early varangian.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] (Longasc @ May 26 2003,08:15)]I would have loved to be one of those fancy armored boys, telling stories of my bravery and victories after a rich meal, being courted by lots of high born chicks and so on...
Actually this is quite close to the real thing... But i wouldn't stop at the high born chicks... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I bet there were a lot of healthy peasant girls around...

Hmmm peasant girls... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Portuguese Rebel @ May 26 2003,16:10)]
Quote[/b] (Longasc @ May 26 2003,08:15)]I would have loved to be one of those fancy armored boys, telling stories of my bravery and victories after a rich meal, being courted by lots of high born chicks and so on...
Actually this is quite close to the real thing... But i wouldn't stop at the high born chicks... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I bet there were a lot of healthy peasant girls around...

Hmmm peasant girls... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Peasant girls huh? I guess you don't go after a girl for her money then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 26 2003,16:25)]Peasant girls huh? I guess you don't go after a girl for her money then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Money?? hell no...give a pretty peasant girl over a fat ugly rich spoilled old countess any day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

And peasant girls are healthier anyway... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[BDC]

Don't they have lice and strange infections?

[Portuguese Rebel]

yeah but they survived all that... anyway the rich ones also had those...