Online battles - Why dont you play online

[ShadesWolf]

There are a number of people who have purchased MTW and Shogun before that, and have not played online, or dont play online- Can you please tell me why this is the case?

[Hyperbolic]

I doubt that I could ever cope without the ability to pause regularly.

[Snaproll]

It seems too daunting learning how to play 3v3 (I think this is what most of the games are). I don't want to get screamed at for not doing what I'm suppossed to do because I've only ever played in SP. Some kind of formalized teaching or mentoring system would be the best way to six this problem.

If I could get someone to show me the ropes and be helpful, that would help a lot.

[rasoforos]

i tried once , got my ass kicked. Its not funny if you are not winning all the times like Alexander http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[A.Saturnus]

Again, not enough poll choices...

[Shahed]

How about some suggestions to flavor your remarks Mr. Saturnus ?

[ErikJansen]

Quote[/b] (Snaproll @ Mar. 12 2003,08:29)]If I could get someone to show me the ropes and be helpful, that would help a lot.
Clan Raven is accepting new blood, experienced and green alike. Take the time out to visit our webpage, and we'd just be happy to show you the ropes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Regards,

[SmokWawelski]

I am not a masochist: the computer does not make fun of me when I loose http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Snaproll]

Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ Mar. 12 2003,13:28)]Clan Raven is accepting new blood, experienced and green alike. Take the time out to visit our webpage, and we'd just be happy to show you the ropes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
That's a very nice offer ErikJansen May I ask what the address of your webpage is?

[cugel]

Well, my computer won't recognize my modem setup, so the multiplayer link is grayed out in my game - I couldn't play MP if I wanted to. But, after checking out a number of replays of on-line games by expert MP'ers, I wouldn't want to anyway.

I've been playing battles against the AI without pausing the game, just to see what that experience is like and I've noticed the following.

1. Yes, you can learn to group your units and use the shortcut keys, which helps some, but games still have that out of control feeling that I don't like. Everything is happening at once and while you're sorting out a mess in one area, your chivalric knights on the other edge of the line are being charged and cut to shreds by Swiss armored pikemen.

2. Too many units, like horse archers and missile troops in general are quite useful, but require special handling because the skirmish mode doesn't work right. You can't do this without pausing the game. Obviously in real life a group of archers aren't going to wait until the enemy knights are right on top of them to start hauling ass, but that's what they do in MTW. Also, if 2 units are charging your unit, it doesn't respond to the second, in fact it moves right into danger instead of running off at an ANGLE designed to keep maximum distance from both Again, in real life those arbalesters aren't going to say let's ignore that second group of knights charging in from the left. This is a simple failure of the battlefield AI. I also hate when you tell a unit to move back, they all stand there until the guy with the flag moves to the back of the unit. Meanwhile it's often too late.

The result of all this is that you have to constantly manage fragile units to keep them from getting chopped to pieces and can't keep control of the overall battle.

I thought it was just my slow mouse hand until I started checking out the replays some expert mp'ers have posted. I could tell that these guys were much better at manuvering their troops all at once than I am, they even managed to make use of horse archers in dexterous fashion while still manuvering the rest of their men, which is something I can't do well. But, then I noticed that the main battle almost always seemed to degenerate into the same wild rush that I'm familiar with -- units all mixed up in one big mob and routing wildly. IN SHORT, these guys weren't really in control of much after the first clash of the lines. Then I started reading threads from the Jousting Fields about rush tactics being a problem and I said uh, huh. Just what I thought.

The bottom line is that I like to use precise tactics and you just can't unless you can pause the game (well, maybe if you have a superfast connection and a very quick mouse hand). Wildly clicking all over the place to try to select and extricate my chivalric knights before they rout isn't my idea of fun. Yes, tactics are important in MP, and no, MP isn't solely a click fest, but it has way too much of those elements for me to ever be interested.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Nice post cugel,

I have been pretty much throught the same path, with pretty much the same feeling after playing a lot of custom games vs the AI.

And I asked a few questions to MP guys,

Here it is;

Valid training? (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=5234)

And well, after that I played the game in MP. Been playing for a month now.

Yes some units are harder to manage in an MP environment than in SP. Javlins, Horse archer. Micromanagement is harder, but also more rewarding.

Is it just a rush between two lines with little control? To the point I am now, yes and no. Actually, the first assault and the way you match your unit with ennemy unit is controlable. Once contact is done and units engaged, it's getting tougher. Use reserve or screening units to tilt the balance.
Once one army is routing, it can be confusing, but it's actually very dangerous for both sides. in 3v3 or 4v4 pursuing can lead to disaster, or more indirectly to distraction when your allies need help and one is lavishly cutting head of an army which is out anyway.

A good player will control his army after 1st routing.

As for the click fest... I think the trouble is more having a good control of the camera that really clicking fast. Being good with a camera is crucial and saves a lot of time to move units around. I say that cause I think I am getting better

Grouping units helps.
Here is a stupid habit of mine; I usually set the group down the screen the same way I set up the army on the field. I mean units on my left side will have their icon on the left side of the unit ladder, center will be at center and right on right.

It's dumb but give me a feeling on what is going on where even if I don't see it.

Hope to see you all online,

Louis,

[Dimeola]

Valid issues raised, sometimes its just more fun in single....anybody hook up with friends online instaed of Gamespy? I play at Gamespy under the name Amortis and would be happy to help anyone new and unsure. Just ask when you see me in the lobby.
Dimeolas

[ErikJansen]

Quote[/b] (Snaproll @ Mar. 12 2003,16:19)]
Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ Mar. 12 2003,13:28)]Clan Raven is accepting new blood, experienced and green alike. Take the time out to visit our webpage, and we'd just be happy to show you the ropes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
That's a very nice offer ErikJansen May I ask what the address of your webpage is?
Sure you can http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Just click the webpage link in my profile thingie and it'll teleport you straight to the nest.

Once there log in as a visitor, use the visitor account with the visitor password (lol&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and drop us a line. Either that or you can go all the way and apply for your own account right away, which I would recommend http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Seeya http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[wordsmith]

I dont play online because i dont have internet at home, I have it at work and at my parents house (which im at all the time, im such a bumb http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif )

I've considered getting net but i already spend to much time on computers with out it so i doubt i will.

[Elwe]

Because I bought the game for the Strageic part, and the Tactical battles are an added bonus for me.

Sometimes I wish the AI would give a little more challenge in some battles, but for the most part it is good enough (especially when I force myself OFF the edges of the map, or when I'm attacking).

One off battles that are not part of a greater context don't really hold any meaning for me, other than 'bragging rights'. And that's not something I'm into. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Just my perceptions, no flaming intended http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

Cheers.

[Skomatth]

For anyone who wants a little teaching contact me in the foyer, my name is KenchiSko and I'll be happy to hellp you, just make sure you listen. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I think it would be great to find out the difference between sp and mp. The few times I played sp, I used mainly mp set ups and since they're so addaptable i usually do very well.

[71-hour Ahmed]

I would play online.. if it fricking worked... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Shahed]

Well if anyone needs any help about online play..look out for me in the foyer. Online name is Sinan. Alternatively email/msn. I'd be more than happy to help. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ToranagaSama]

Too bad you can't choose more than one choice, if so I'd choose:

2) The single player option is more interesting
5) The people online are rude....
7) No campaign option

Simply w/o the context provided by the Strat Map, TW MP is a poor RTS w/o any building or troop making, and is more akin to FPS. For RTS, I'd play Total Annihilation, and for FPS give me Half-Life. I'm a Strategy gamer, MP just doesn't have any strategy.

I got into Strategy gaming, because FPS became inane: Kill, Spawn, Kill, ad infinitum; and there has yet to be a RTS game to improve upon Total Annihilation.

I came to TW after a stint with Civ. Civ is great, but w/o real battles is can be sorta flat.

A MP Campaign would be the greatest thing since sliced toast, we can only hope that CA will finally be able to bring this about with Rome. [Fingers Crossed.]

Snaproll, has a very good point. I prefer to play one on one; engage in a contest of skill; but it seems most people (I don't know why) prefer to play 2 v 2 or better. Even with Shogun which as few available players.

Not too long ago, I played a couple of 2 v 2 and I think a 3 v 3. It was cool because my brother was on my side. It can be fun when you play with a couple of best friends vs. another couple of best friends, but I just don't get 4 strangers teaming up 2 vs 2. 4 guys sorta all doing there individual thing. Why not play 1 vs 1?

Plus, the whole clan thing is a complete turn off for me personally, and I think is prohibitive for newbies and people who take the game less seriously.

I mean really, you like the game, want to just have a little fun so you go online and run into the clan monsters. Guys who take the game too seriously, play together all the time, enjoy winning too much, seeking competition games vs fun games, engaging in a clique mentality.

I know I'm overstating the case a bit, but in general this is the MP environment. I'm not just talking about TW, but MP gaming in general. Many people have negative experiences and from that become rather reluctant.

If CA/Activison is listening, I believe TW MP would become more popular if we had the ability to setup our own servers. The capability to run our own servers would serve to screen players.

If you're into the clan thing; then you can setup a server and the clan masters can gather and do their thing w/o being imposing to other players. Non-clan players can be screen out.

If you like playing with more mature players, again you can setup a server and invite like minded players to join. Less mature players can be screen out.

If you're a newbie, a newbie server could be setup. Overly strong players can be screened out.

If you're the kind of player that likes to teach you could setup a server and invite those who want to learn a few tips to come play.

Want to play with just your friends? Setup a passworded server. Oh yeah, presently you can password your game, but its not the same thing.

In addition, with all the mods that are coming forth, the need for servers running a particular mod version is becoming greater and greater.

Want to play Partrician online, server please. Med Mod? Server please.

The central server is a BIG negative and is prohibitive to growth in my opinion and s/b done away with. This s/b the subject of a separate thread.

Well, those are just some of my thoughts. Please no one take offense.

CA/Activison are you there?

[ErikJansen]

First of all; no offense taken Toranaga Sama, there was only one point I wanted to address which I felt was unfair and untrue regarding online gaming.

Toranaga Sama said:


Quote[/b] ]Plus, the whole clan thing is a complete turn off for me personally, and I think is prohibitive for newbies and people who take the game less seriously.


This I find to be completely untrue. Most Clans have rules of conduct and work hard to promote the positive side of online gaming. Rude and dishonorable conduct is frowned upon. You also meet a lot of interesting people who share the same hobby, exchanging ideas and tactics regarding the game. I see nothing wrong with players who care more about the game than others bonding up and getting creative about it.

Just because someone is in a Clan does not mean they don't want to play a ronin...

Sorry Toranaga Sama, but you missed the bullseye by half a mile here. No offense intended, just getting my point of view through http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Regards,

[ichi]

Wolf:

When I first got STW I did not play online 'cause it did not work - probs registering and other tech stuff. Now I play online.

Toranagasama: Once again I find you to be the most insightful observer in here. Absolutely correct in your analysis, with the exception noted in the previous post.

There are some real sharks patrolling the online waters, ready to take a cheap shot at anyone struggling. But there are chivalrous folk on GameSpy, newbies just need to be brave and find out who we are.

Anytime a new player sees me in the foyer I hope they ask me to play. As for the @ssh*les, well they are what they are, and thats their prob.

ichi

[Orda Khan]

There are plenty of nice people in the MP foyer who will not make fun of new players. Point out that you are new and ask for some advice. Ok things won't always go according to plan but you will learn.
I prefer big games as most do teamplay can be great fun

......Orda

[LeeJackson]

Personally i don't like gamespys interface and softwear.

STW and STW:ME were great because it had its own server. And while things weren't perfect it seemed easier and more enjoyable.

[Skomatth]

you guys who are nervous should check out my article at www.clankenchikuka.com on the news area. It will give yo u a basic idea of the flow of most battles. also I dont thinkk control is that hard unless you make it hard. I have one group for all my infantry which I just double click in front of the enemy's front line when i want to attack, have my 4 pavs arbs in a group that I just move up. That really just leaves five units to command, 2 horse on each side and my general. You can get more complicated when you are better of course, but going into how to do that may just confuse you.

[Kongamato]

You DARE enter the realm of MP?

WE WILL CRUSH YOU

The sky shall turn red with flying entrails

And you will lose

At a game of intelligence

Which means that you are inferior, yes inferior to us. We are stronger, smarter, and better looking. Even the Uglies. We will marry more attractive people, and you shall die in shame and sorrow, knowing that we were better. But wait This is nothing compared to the LIFE of shame and ridicule that your children will face Our children will beat them up physically, mentally, and emotionally every day at school. The school bus is going to have to pick your kid up at the hospital every day until he/she finally ends your pathetic genetic line with suicide, paving the way for our descendants to rule the world as a MASTER RACE AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA

Ok, relax people Just some exagerrative humor for ya. If I offended you, I did not mean to and apologize.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Anyway, my point is that some might not want to test their skills online because they might get shamed, ridiculed, and labeled untouchable. Many people do not want to compete on a percieved level of intelligence, as losing just makes them feel like crap. There IS somewhat of a small-town mentality online, where everybody knows everybody and newbies are easily identified. Some might screen them out, but others are just as likely to teach a willing learner the tricks of the trade. I really believe that if you went out and posted a newbie wants to train post in a respected clan forum, at least one of the people there would help you. They want the same thing; worthy competitors and good competition. You really should try to go online and become part of the MP community. You will only rarely encounter jerks with attitudes like what I described above. Many times people like that stop playing after they get humiliated in the extreme by a player they perceive to be inferior. Maybe that player could be you. Find out

[Jochi Khan]

To the ppl who feel worried about playing online.
It is what it is........a game. It is mean't to be enjoyable.
Yes, there are a few rude ppl in the foyer that make things a little unpleasant but, that is easy to overcome....just ignore them. All the others certainly make up for them.
Don't worry about the 'clan' thing. You will find these ppl more than willing to help you.
Do as I often do.....sit and read the chat in the foyer. See ppl asking for help, saying it's their first time online, see the ppl offering advice, explaining how to get into a game, how to download the latest patch because ppl have trouble joining games.
As for worrying about playing 2v2 3v3 and 4v4 battles incase you look foolish, how do you think the others learn't to play as well as they do?
Everyone has to start somewhere and it's good that ppl take the trouble to help the newcomers.
Remember, put the newcomers off and we will soon finish up with hardly anyone to play against
Nothing in this post is intended to be offensive to anyone.

...........Jochi

[ToranagaSama]

mistake

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (cugel @ Mar. 12 2003,17:20)]
Crugel,

Below are a few comments regarding how I handle the game W/O pausing. I hope they can be of help. BTW, Pausing is for Wimps;-)


Quote[/b] ]1. Yes, you can learn to group your units and use the shortcut keys, which helps some, but games still have that out of control feeling that I don't like. Everything is happening at once and while you're sorting out a mess in one area, your chivalric knights on the other edge of the line are being charged and cut to shreds by Swiss armored pikemen.

I only group my units to make it easier to pick-out particular units by clicking their flag(s) at the bottom of the screen. I do not ordinarily use the group function to facilitate battle. That is, click on a group and charge them or something. The ability to group really isn't all that necessary for success.

That out-of-control feel is WAR In TW and in reality, a general is never in control until after the battle is over. Success in both is derived from one's ability to think and execute under pressure and within the fog of war. Total War simulates this better than any game I've ever come across.

Practice, Practice, Practice, that's all it takes. Even once you become a master, there will be times when you lose it. For me, some unexpected terrain will do it. Trees will often be my downfall.

I've found that it’s best to get used to a certain army composition. That is become very familiar with just a few types of troops and how they function and can function (support each other) together. Once your mastered a “core” group of units/army composition, you can then gradually experiment by adding a unit or two.

This way when you enter battle, you know the capabilities of each unit type and what you expect each unit to accomplish.

(To this day, because I usually play Catholic and most of my battles are against Catholics, I am only vaguely familiar with Muslim troops. When I encounter them its mucho fun, cause I still don't know them all and am often surprised as to what they can do. I used to win Muslim battles by the skin of my teeth and would often lose. Only recently am I beginning to dominate. (I think this is how it must truly been when different cultures warred. Generals really didn't have a clue how their troops, tactics, and technology would perform against an unfamiliar enemy.))

For instance, I use Spears PURELY for Archer protection. I use them, generally, for no other purpose. I use Archers behind a Spear screen, primarily, to pummel the AI's second line troops (sometimes I'll get off a couple of volleys at the AI's first line attacking unit(s)). Hitting the second line troops weakens the AI’s ability to support its attack. (Perspectively, this tactic is in opposite to that what is most effective in Shogun. Where protecting archers so “directly” is less necessary and hitting “first” line troops is the focus.)

I seldom lose archers, and it is VERY rare for me to lose an entire unit. I usually lose 0-10 men on average. I often will have each unit spread into two lines, and on “Hold Position” as I do NOT want them running away. I can protect them and want them to keep firing away. When archers are running they are not being effective. This means that if their spear protectors appear to be weakening, I will have to “manually” move them and/or bring another unit for protection.

Have a plan of execution. Plan how precisely you wish to use EACH unit. Of course, once battle ensues all plans go to H; but you can plan for that as well.

For instance, those Knights you have on the other side of the map. Well, you know that its highly likely that you may get busy on the other side and forget them for a moment or two. You already have “pre-“knowledge that this “will” happen. Plan for it.

So, why have those Knights stuck out there unprotected? Put a spear or sword unit with them for protection. Want to move those Knights? Move the spears/swords right along with them. Only put the Knights on the attack (w/o (leaving behind) the spear/sword protectors) when your Knights have a clear advantage. Knights are meant to sway the battle, not take the battle to the enemy. Once you have the battle under control, then use your Knights to tip the battle in your favor; otherwise they s/b, generally, held in reserve.

I never have more than 3 units of Knights in any battle. One of which is ALWAYS my general. (My general, usually, does very little fighting.) Their primary duty is, defensive”, to guard my flanks. (Sometimes, I'll use a unit to secure my middle, if I feel it weakening; and I'll always replace them with a good unit to keep my flanks secure. Before engaging in battle, I will have already pre-planned for this possible circumstance.) Only once I feel my flanks are secure do I look to take them on the offense.


Quote[/b] ]2. Too many units, like horse archers and missile troops in general are quite useful, but require special handling because the skirmish mode doesn't work right. You can't do this without pausing the game.

Quite right, these units require handling; but, truly, skirmish does “Work Right”.


Quote[/b] ]Obviously, in real life a group of archers aren't going to wait until the enemy knights are right on top of them to start hauling ass, but that's what they do in MTW.

In reality, this may or may not be correct, but within the context of the game, it is basically irrelevant.

The objective within TW is to learn to handle these units properly to their greatest effect. Do NOT put these units in a position where they are so vulnerable. Skirmish mode is NOT their protector (their General is, that means YOU), a good unit of Spears (or swords) will/can protect them. Quite right, in reality such units won't wait until the enemy knights are right on top of them, but in reality it won't matter when they start to run. Knights WILL run them down

Horse Archers might be a little different, as they should be able to get away from Knights, but here still the objective is to have the HA run to protection. The main thing to realize is that HA are a Harassing unit; and if they are not directly Harassing they s/b held safely in reserve.

Here's a good HA trap tip, see a group of Knights sitting out on the flank somewhere, send a unit of HA to harry them with a few arrows; the Knights will most likely attempt to engage them; let the Knights get close and then retreat the HA. Have a unit of good Spears VERY nearby. Retreat the HA in the direction of the Spears; once the Knights get close enough, engage them with the Spears (preferably on Wedge and Hold Position); then bring about the HA and either, harry the Knights' rear with arrows; or bring the HA around to hit the Knights flank/rear. With that in motion, then put your attention to another part of the battlefield.

(In general, HA are only useful when necessity dictates a need for “mobile” artillery. In my experience, so far, with MTW, this circumstance is few and far between. I’ve found the Horse Crossbows to be the most effective, when the AI Cavalry outnumbers your capability to defend your flanks with either spears or knights. Horse Crossbows are a VERY effective mobile defensive “stopper” unit that can be quickly moved from flank to flank in a supporting role. Used effectively, a unit can stop a Knight charge in its tracks and/or weaken a Knight unit to the point where it can effectively be defended by a unit of foot troops.)

The above is just one example of a pre-battle skirmish plan for particular units in your army. You should have 3-4 such types of plans for individual units of your army. Once one plan is in effect then, attempt the second and so on. BUT, remember you also need defensive plans as well, for when things go wrong.

Not meant to offend, but pausing only helps to support poor pre-planning, execution, and decision-making. Real-time “Flanking” is the most important “tactic” to master, and this CANNOT be mastered through pausing.

Experiment with formations, Wedge is a very effective formation for spears to hold off a charge of Knights; also experiment with Hold Position, this is good for Spear units used to protect your archers; Wedge and Hold Position in combo is good for spears to engage and hold a unit of Knights and allow them to be flanked.

Same combo for a unit(s) of spears in front of archers. The spears will hold against any unit type long enough for the attacking unit to be flanked (specifically knights); but you must have units in place to be used as flankers (again pre-planning).

“Hold Formation” is good when a unit, particularly spears, is about to take on multiple units (flanked). Spears four rows deep and Hold Formation is VERY effective. Often, a unit may hold out long enough against even three units, long enough for “help” to arrive.

(I didn’t use any of this much in Shogun, but find it quite necessary for MTW.)

The composition and positioning of the units in your army s/b like one solid FIST. You should have an offensive and defensive pre-plan for every finger of the fist. After a few battles with similarly composed armies, pre-planning and execution become second nature


Quote[/b] ]Also, if 2 units are charging your unit, it doesn't respond to the second, in fact it moves right into danger instead of running off at an ANGLE designed to keep maximum distance from both Again, in real life those arbalesters aren't going to say let's ignore that second group of knights charging in from the left. This is a simple failure of the battlefield AI.

I understand the situation, but believe your view is not convincing. Think for example, you're part of a unit that is engaged. You and your unit are fighting, right then and that moment for YOUR LIFE You and your unit fight as a unit. (Spears fought as a unit; and in many instances so did other types of troops, that is fight as a unit.)

Now, while your engaged, fighting as a unit, for your life, a situation where one mistake means death, you notice that a second enemy unit is attempting to flank your unit and engage. What do you, individually and as a unit do? What CAN you do? Think about it, if your fighting as a unit, then if one or more individuals of the unit stop to turn to meet the second unit, then the cohesiveness of the unit will fail and the unit (and you) are dead (killed by the first unit). Individually, if you happen to notice the second unit coming on, what do you do?

Individually, you're fighting some guy from the first unit, both of you trying to kill the other. You can't simply just stop to deal with the oncoming unit. If you do, you're dead. Of course, if you don't do exactly that, you're dead; killed by some individual of the second unit.

This is the crux regarding flanking, both individually and as a unit; you're in a pickle. The only other option is to flee, in which case that means individually and as a unit you must turn and place your back to the enemy. Your Dead

So again, what do you do? The only “rational” thing to do is fight-on, and hope against hope, until you feel the icy cold of steel slicing under your ribs and cry out a curse against your general. Hehe.

Now, given the context of the battlefield situation above, neither the AI NOR a human is nor will act in a perfectly lucid manner. In reality the average person will go temporarily insane and act accordingly, in which case he's dead. This is the reality of war.

Within the context of the game, the AI mimics such logic behavior better than ANY game before it, and in fact does a rather excellent job. Nothing wrong with the AI on this front. Could it do a more perfect job? Yes, but so could a human. In war, most people get killed because they re-acted stupidly. Surviving in war has a lot to do with luck, but more to do with maintaining a cool level head.


Quote[/b] ]I also hate when you tell a unit to move back, they all stand there until the guy with the flag moves to the back of the unit. Meanwhile it's often too late.

I hate this too, but then you've got ask what is this behavior attempting to simulate? Soldiers are supposed to follow orders; they shouldn't retreat until they are told to do so by their command officer. The guy with the flag is the command officer. This is the way I see, not perfect mechanics, but a good simulation of the situation. Everyone is not going to make it in a retreat.


Quote[/b] ]I thought it was just my slow mouse hand until I started checking out the replays some expert mp'ers have posted.

My question is why is it that you regard them as, ahhh, experts? Your comments sorta belies the fact don't you think?

Well, all my comments have to do with SP battles. MP and SP use a similar set of skills, but the emphasis is quite different and as such, imho, the skills aren't transferable.

A very successful skill set for MP won't have the same level of success within the context of SP. In MP, one develops skills with a given army composition within a given battle situation, repeatedly. True, your opponent provides a different challenge each battle. Such is the appeal of MP.

Yet, within SP, if playing the game properly (non-cheesy), then one will seldom find themselves, in battle, repeatedly, with the same given army composition and, certainly, not repeatedly in the same given battle situation. Such is the appeal of SP.

Lastly, realize a couple of things:

1) It makes little sense to bring to the battle a unit type that you haven’t mastered. It makes even less sense to bring two or more un-mastered units. Bring units you know how to use well. Better to bring “more” well-mastered units.

2) Experiment with one unit type at a time.

3) My first suggestion is to master the use of spears. Experiment and discover the best use of the different Formations and Orders. Experiment with them formed in rows 2 deep, 3 deep and 4 deep, etc.

4) Once spears are mastered, move on to Archers. Again, experiment with them formed in rows 2 deep, 3 deep and 4 deep, etc. Experiment with Orders, such as Hold Position, Hold Formation. Experiment with them choosing their own targets and with player directed fire. Experiment with using 2, 3, 4, etc. units. Direct fire upon multiple units and upon a single unit, see what’s most effective for your style of fighting. I suggest directed fire upon a single unit.

5) Experiment with Swords. Personally, I don’t feel I’ve “mastered” them, but I do all right. Hold Formation can be very effective in some circumstances.

I play on Early and Expert. If you play other periods, then some or all the above may have to be adjusted accordingly.

[Sir Black Raven]

the main reason i installed internet was to play MTW. I played Shogun for long but never online ( i missed o lot of fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif ) but when i bought MTW i decided to get along. The first 2 months were a bit difficult for being a newbie and had to learn how to do things right without hearing the complains of my allies... But then i started to look for a home in MTW wich means a Clan were i could learn and feel at home. I glad to have found my Clan and The Grand Prince who was a big help and always stood by me. Here at Raven our code of laws dont allowed us to treat the enemies without respect wich means that newbies r always welcome to play with us without beeing put a side. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ShadesWolf]

As I stated on my other thread, some good comments - thankyou.

I will leave this open a little longer before I decide what to do with it.....

[Cazbol]

I tried it once and i did like it but still I haven't come back for more. I am puzzled by this myself. I voted that the SP is more interesting, since I like the stratetic element but I also like the challenge of an even fight that the MP gives you.

Getting into a game was a bit difficult to begin with, since many of the games never started which meant a lot of waiting for no good reason. I finally got a game by hosting it myself and that was a fabulous experience. The best part was probably the fact that I won http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif and maybe I'm just reluctant to break my 100% win ratio. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif It may also deter me a bit to find the time where I can be sure I won't be interrupted, but that's a minor excuse.

Allright, I hereby vow to get back in there and fight. Prepare to defend yourselves. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Tyrac]

I am just not fast enough with the mouse. I have been gaming for years and I noticed around 20 that I was getting a bit slower then I was at 16 etc. and I have only gotten slower since. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif MP is a click fest. A click fest where alot of other skills are very important but it is still very much a click fest. I cannot click very fast, pure and simple.

[Cazbol]

Quote[/b] (Tyrac @ Mar. 19 2003,08:47)]MP is a click fest. A click fest where alot of other skills are very important but it is still very much a click fest. I cannot click very fast, pure and simple.
I hate click fests but I don't agree that MP MTW is a click fest, after all you only have 16 units to control and don't have to produce units and advance technology in the middle of the fight.

In my first campaign I used the pause button (bullet-time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). I then decided to play a full campaign without ever using the pause button (for game purposes). What could be the worst thing that happened? You might lose a fight but so what? Losing more battles is something one needs for SP as the AI rarely has a fair chance. For the first few battles in that campaign I had to slap myself on the wrist a few times because the pausing had become second nature. After that I didn't even miss the pause and I never consider using it anymore.

Playing without pausing I could see that my troops really don't need as much micromanagement as I thought, although they obviously won't be doing the optimal thing every single second of the battle.

The factors I think are most important for winning a battle would be:
1. Tactics
2. Strategy (what units you bring to the battle and why)
3. Overview (know what's happening, and most of all: don't panic)
4. Proper use of the camera (helps in maintaining nr. 3 and is far more important than fast clicking)

[LRossaRikimaru]

i disagree with you Tyrac , is not a click fest m8,
two years (and half ) ago , when i put my hands on my copy of Shogun i think that i will surely love the sp etc...

Is for sp that i buy Shogun, and never think that i will be a Mp player with my cracked connection (56k) and my poor and slow mouse moving....

with time and a great love for the samurai that die on my clicks i put my army on MP for see how good i'm.
Was different time from medieval, Shogun players was mostly elitarie but truly honourable (for the way of samurai that was the way of the game) and start to train me.
From that day i have meet hundred of players, rusher, cryer, insulter, camper etc.. but i also meet very very pleasant person, honourable, fair, kind, and i have also meet my clan, my family , when all the problem (from MTW at real life problem) and strategy can be discuss and shared.

Would you like lose the possibility that this great game offer you? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif i hope not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Bye all m8s and sorry for my bad english http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

LRossaRikimaru

[Elwe]

Quote[/b] (LRossaRikimaru @ Mar. 20 2003,20:02)]Bye all m8s and sorry for my bad english http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Bah.. don't worry about that.. it's FAR better than my Italian http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[pdoan8]

As I remember, MP STW was not click fest. Of course, you have to be able to think and react fast. Sometimes, a quicker response or you could say a quicker click can turn the tide. I played STW MP arround 10 times. All defeated, but most were nice experience. In later games when I began to use hot keys for formation/group and stay organized, I was able to keep on fighting for a little longer.

Even though I haven't had time to play MP MTW yet, but I will in the future. There are many more troop types, but I don't think it will be any harder than MP STW.

[Taillefer]

Tora.

Great post - thanks.

Hoped my 'Just for button bashers ' post would trigger his sought of helpful info.

Taillefer.

'England expects....' http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Hashishin]

I bought STW and first tried the SP of course. Later i tried MP and played for a while. Then i made a break.
I bought later MTW and VI and played fo a while SP.
When i tried again MP i lossed nearly every game.
But after a time you will learn to control your units and which units are good against others etc.

SP is very different from MP. For about 3 Weeks i started again a bit SP and i only lost 4 battle against the PC i the whole campain, even if i was outnumbered and that on expert level. Of course if heavy outnumbered i didn't battle.
But when you play MP your Battleskills will improve very fast.

The Warlord Clan is also happy if new guys if interest in MP and wants to help them.
Only contact us in our Forum.

[Balamir]

I encourage all players to get on the MP and try it out. The truth about MP is after a while you get used to the idea. The MP allows you to become a much better player than you ever can by using the SP only. The living example of this, is me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif When I first started playing the MP i couldnt beat the computer on the normal difficulty settings. Yesterday I had a custom battle with the computer on expert difficulty on the acre map which is a huge hill advantage for the defender The truth is that i routed 3/4 of the enemy with my pavs longbows and 4 knights. The rest routed as soon as I marched my infantry on them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . Another thing is that when I first entered the MP, My first win was on my 9th game. There will always be newbies, but the newbies will always become veterans if they are willing to. Just be a good sport, apologise if you made a mistake, throw away your dignity. Then everyone will like you no matter how bad you play. If some arsehole comes and starts swearing at you because you're a noob, tell them that you'd rather be a noob with manners than a veteran without manners http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Always works. If anyone is willing to learn a few lessons we have great experts on the foyer that are ready to help. Im not an expert but I will do all I can See you guys over the foyer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Dimeola]

Used to play online alot, but I dont bother anymore. Partly because I cannot spend enough time at it to get good. And it just isnt fun to get whipped almost every time. Partly because when I do get some quality time for MP there arent any VI games....and its been tough lately getting into a game period. I dont host anymore because the firewall stays up. And I get `so` tired of the extremely rude ally. It got so bad that last game that I just pulled my troops off to the side and suggested the gentleman run my troops as well as his own. He replied that he could not run my troops. `Exactly` I replied.
D

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]`Exactly` I replied.


That was one sweet answer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[HawaiianHobbit]

I would like to but I have never gotten around to it.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

For those who have trouble controlling army without pause: remember than your opponent is having the same problem you are...you can exploit this by feinting and end up catching him unprepared...

[twjunkie]

The only online MP I ever tried was AOM.After having my a$$ handed to me repeatedly by 12 year olds I hung up the ol MP spurs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I found that,aleast with AOM, most people were more interested in crushing the noob to the tune of endless taunts than engaging in a honorable test of skill.Perhaps MTW is different.

[Brutal DLX]

Well, there are always these kinds of players, but in MTW MP the only ones that do that are still newbies themselves.
If you play with veterans/clanners you will probably lose at first but never get taunted. And you will learn from each match. And asking vets about some facet of the game never hurts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Magraev]

MP doesn't interest me since I like my games adrenaline-free. I'll pause to look at a clash of units from all angles and to consider if I should send my urban milita to the left or right.

The tactical battles are fun, but are not the main attraction for me. Therefore I'll continue playing sp only.

[Cazbol]

I just had my second MP experince last Sunday where I had two glorious battles. It's a fantastic experience. Do not make the mistake of thinking that you don't stand a chance because you're a newbie and that you'll have to undergo some rigorous training and mental preparation for weeks or months to be able to win a fight. The previous posts might lead people to think so. I've been on the winning side in all my 3 battles and that certainly isn't because of some great skill of mine.

Go out there expecting to win but ready to lose.