View Full Version : Use Mongol & Swiss and others Online
fdg_duck
03-28-2003, 01:56
I'm posting this here as i can't post in the other sections yet.
I am developing a patch which allows players to use the mongol and other forgotten units in online games.
The patch does not violate any of CA's security measures, which are still all in place and all still work. The patch does not allow you to use troop types that have not been allowed by CA. You can not use the patch to modify troop stats or values or costs.
It does allow you to use swiss armoured pike, almughavar, mongols etc in online games. I believe these units were left out of online play because they mainly belong to non-playable nationalities, not because they unbalance the game or confer an advantage to a player.
Yes, there is an All20 patch, but unless you are in a clan it is almost impossible to find 6 or 8 people who have it and are willing to load it, just so you can play a game.
My patch allows you to use those missing units without anyone else in the game having the patch. It does not confer an advantage to you, all it does is allow you to use the troops provided by CA.
Is it a cheat? I don't think so, is it cheating to use the units provided by CA?
There has been a negative response to the original posting of this in the multiplayer forum, if people don't want the patch to be released, I won't release it, but I will use it.
LeeJackson
03-28-2003, 02:27
Will it is a cheat if you can use swiss pikemen and I can't. I believe CA left out thoes units for a reason. I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, and I understand why you are doing it. However, I do feel that CA had good reason behind its descison to leave thoes units out.
but hey I could be wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
03-28-2003, 03:26
Fgd duck,
I personally don't like the choice of army in MP, and has posted about it.
However, to make all troops available to all factions in all eras (that's the general understanding in the post of the JF, please correct) is, IMO a little bit to drastic.
Small changes, or making non available factions available, why not (that's what All20 is doing). All units available whenever is pushing it a little bit too far and destroys one aspect of the game; faction selection and to a smaller extent army selection (within a faction different from all).
It is likely to kill some questions which makes the game interesting: how to deal with pav arb when Turk? What kind of Byz anti cav? etc, etc...
Being able to use all units when other can't give an unfair advantage. I don't think that everybody in the community will have the patch.
If you want to use this patch, I recommand that, as a minimum, you warn your opponent, and keep your army within era and faction limits.
Here is a link to the JF post.
JF discussion on swiss&mongols (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=4681)
Best regards,
Louis,
fdg_duck
03-28-2003, 03:28
all units are within their correct periods
Perhaps I don't understand perfectly what your patch does. But if you can use a unit in a faction that nobody else could use (unless they have same patch as you) and there is no warning about it, then it is a cheat.
So far, other mods are fair in the sense that all players follow the same constraints and rules. If I am German, and I can only pick among N units, I want you to be restricted to the same N units also.
Annie
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
03-28-2003, 03:38
Ok, thanks for the precision... Was not clear before for me.
Additional question, are all units available for all factions, or just their original factions?
I mean, do you just have additional faction? Or all factions get access to all the units of the period?
Louis,
fdg_duck
03-28-2003, 04:03
units are only available for their correct faction, you can't mix turks units with french units or mongol units with english etc.
fdg_duck
03-28-2003, 04:07
LadyAnn
If I am German, and I can only pick among N units, I want you to be restricted to the same N units also.
If I am German and you also pick German, I want to expand your choice to the same N units also.
fdg_duck
03-28-2003, 04:19
LadyAnn
So, he and whoever he feels like to give the patch to
Only myself and Glorfindel have the patch, I won't be giving out the details unless the patch is released for general use.
The patch should be released and if fgd_duck doesn't want to release it
If the community is happy to have the patch, I will complete it and release it. The patch will only be released if it is complete and secure and can't be used to cheat.
It's not a bad idea in theory, but the only difference between your mod and the all20 mod is that not all players need to have the mod in order for you to to use it. That is good because its a bit of a pill trying to get people to use new mods, but at the same time, these people aren't going to want you to be using units that they can't. So in order to play people who aren't going to mind (if you already don't know them and they don't mind) they will have to have the same mod. So really they could just as easily use the all20 mod. Like Yuuki said, no reason to reinvent the wheel. But at least you're trying something, and you get credit for that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Nice try m8, but the one thing I can almost guarentee is that you're going to get mixed feelings with this.
Well who would want to play against someone who can pick units you cant pick. In the end you will still only be able to use this mod with others who has downloaded it.
Yes its annoying that not many are using the mod(s) that already are out. But I really think its better to stick with what we got and try to get more people to use it.
The org could be used for that..promoting mods designed for multiplayer. Ofc I already have one custom era/stat out and working on another so I might be a bit biased http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
CBR
Thanks fdg_duck for clarification.
Sorry for the tone of my message. This is serious matter because we don't want to kill this game the way it kills many other games.
Annie
fdg_duck
03-28-2003, 05:35
I have seen a grand total of TWO games using the all20 mod, when i saw the first one, I thought terrific, exited and loaded the all20 mod, re-entered but only to find the game was full and in play. I waited till they finished. 30 minutes later the game finished and they started another. however it was passworded and I could not join it, after that game finished they all left.
So while people say my mod is the same as the all20, and reinventing the wheel etc. i've found the all20 mod unusuable, but I've been able to play mongols using mine.
fdg_duck
03-28-2003, 05:40
p.s. to last post
I've played using the mongols about 4 times, and lost each time.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
LeeJackson
03-28-2003, 06:58
Duck, you are mssing one point your mod will allow you to pick units I can not (if I don't ahve the mod). My undesrtanding is I will have no warning. SO if I enter a battle and your using swiss pike men I will be pissed of, call you a cheater, other nasty names, and leave. This will create bad comunity relations
Being able to do something the other person can't is a cheat. Saying your mod will not be a cheat is like saying the aiming hacks in first person shooters aren't cheats because any one can can go download them.
For this mod not be considered a cheat you are going to need to make it so only people with the same mod can play each other, and the all20 mod already does that.
Like I said, its a good thought on your part to try this and include others in the decision, but I remembered something I had previously overlooked....you're taking out other factions to include others, right? Like I think I remember seeing that the Polish were replaced with the Horde, correct? That also might be looked down upon by some people, because taking out factions kind of defeats the purpose imo.
ErikJansen
03-28-2003, 08:23
That would be the Russians from what I read Aelwyn. IMHO the faction balance went out the window with the additional units included.
Kongamato
03-28-2003, 08:44
This could create the opportunity for dangerous, unbalanced rush tactics. I am sure that an AMP-esque player with knowledge and time could create an army that would be unstoppable. What would we all do then? We have no security measures like PunkBuster to screen these people out. Severe, Draconian measures would have to be taken to ensure a level playing field.
Anyway, I cannot support the prospect of this patch at this time.
I am also afraid that duck is not the only one capable of finding out how to enable such options. Less scrupulous people might decide to make their own patches like this and distribute them freely. Then, we would really be screwed if a boring, unbalanced rush tactic could be found. I am glad that duck is here willing to discuss this with us. It's going to be a long time before CA can prevent this if it were used maliciously.
fdg_duck
03-28-2003, 08:59
ErikJansen
the faction balance went out the window
Russians and Polish would still be available, no one would have to use the patch. If you wanted to play a session using them, just load without the patch.
The mods to individual factions are minimal (apart from the creation of the Mongols and Swiss) and there are counters in the other factions for any changes.
Changes in the germans, italians and spainish are countered by corresponding changes in the germans, italians and spainish. adding highlanders (who are weaker than gallowglasses) to the english does not really increase their combat strength, but an english player could now field an Early period Scots army (highlanders,spearman, feudal knights). same goes for the light cav added to the danes, byz and turks.
Swiss armoured pikes are expensive, slow, tire easy and vulnerable to missiles, they have a place in a battle but not a place in every battle.
Mongol army is similar to a early turkish army, lots of bows but little armour, by the time you beef up their armour it's an expensive army.
Aelwyn
because taking out factions kind of defeats the purpose
dont think it does, all factions can still be played. in any one nights play i know i only use 2 maybe 3 different factions, other people may use more but i'd tend to think that people stick to the faction they like.
Yes I agree...people do tend to stick to certain factions. Some others though, like myself, never know which faction they're going to take until faced with the decision in game. To each his own. Good luck with your patch. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
ErikJansen
03-28-2003, 11:44
Duck wrote:
Quote[/b] ]Russians and Polish would still be available, no one would have to use the patch. If you wanted to play a session using them, just load without the patch.
The point here is that some players will use these units all the time, and thereby shifting game balance a lot. Unfair advantage anyone? The difference between your mod and the All20 is that everyone must have the All20 installed to play, not so with your mod.
Still I'm not a complete skeptic, since this allows players to try new units in a somewhat new environment without everyone having to install the mod. It is easy to abuse this though, which is the real cause of my concern.
Cheers to Duck though (not to forget Elmo & Mithrandir either), who brought this to the Org's attention and invited a discussion around this theme.
Though I do not agree wholly with your view that mods to individual factions are minimal either, but thats just my humble personal opinion.
well unfortunately just by the reaction posted here you can see that this will cause problems .. and a hell of a lot of them. Playing MP with ppl that are unaware of what you are doing will cause confusion and confrontation, if you want to play mongols play SP, you can play them there all you want .. but if you decide you want to play MP then i would be very careful with who you play and make sure you have the full backing of the other players before proceding
I beleive this mod has been known to be possible for a long time but for the good of the community it was never made ..
Quote[/b] ]There has been a negative response to the original posting of this in the multiplayer forum, if people don't want the patch to be released, I won't release it, but I will use it.
from this blunt statement it suggests you are not able to compromise and find a solution here with us, if this is the case then i ask you to think about it because if we do not be careful this will ruin a lot of ppl's fun, you want to be remembered for that? i hope not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
03-28-2003, 15:31
Duck,
Thanks for answering my questions.
One advantage of All20 vs your patch is that people are aware they are playing with different rules than the official 1.1 patch from CA.
With your patch there is no knowledge that one opponent may or may not use this patch giving an unfair advantage in terms of unit / faction selection.
I would not release it, because they are always new people coming, and they will have trouble keeping track of this unofficial patch... Use of this patch is very likely to be resented.
If you want to use it, I strongly suggest you warn your opponent. Failure to do so may be very detrimental to relationship in the foyer... The first time Elmo run into your army he thought the game was hacked.
Best regards, it's an interesting work,
Louis,
The All20.exe is a one time install. It coexists with the normal game, and you access it by selecting the new eras that are available when you host. Anyone with the All20.exe installed can join an All20 game or a regular game without changing anything. Even so, the All20 is hardly being used which is a testament to the difficulty of getting people to use any kind of mod. The reason for that is players put a lot of work into developing their gameplay for the standard game, and anything that alters the playbalance means they have to repeat that process all over again to get back to the level of play they are currently at. Everyone would have to use this mod and build up that experience again, but you'll never get that because some players will object to the particular unit availability choices that have been made. This mod can only be a novelty like all teh other mods which some players might be interested in trying. Jumping into regular games with this mod is going to get a bad reaction, and get you banned from most people's games. Keep in mind that players are already strung out with all the wasted time from drops and spoiled games from people escaping. People will only put up with so much frustration before they throw in the towel and stop playing the game. Other players will withdraw into a circle of known opponents who don't use this mod. This mod will not open up more games to people. It will make less games available to them.
Another really bad possible consequense of this onesided mod is that CA/Activision might remove the ability to use mods in MP altogether. This is seen as a problem, and CA/Activision is certainly going to view it as a problem.
LeeJackson
03-28-2003, 20:05
Have to say I agree with Puzz3d.
Nobody doubts your good intetions duck, but you know what they say about the road to hell..
So please don't take any comments personally, excpet the good ones. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Mithrandir
03-28-2003, 21:54
Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Mar. 28 2003,10:04)]The All20.exe is a one time install. It coexists with the normal game,
Didnt know that *downloading now*
fdg_duck
03-29-2003, 05:51
Today I stopped working on my patch, and will not release it or the beta or any further information about it. The only working copies are mine and Mithrandir's.
That will probably please a number of people, however the reason I stopped working will not please anyone.
The reason I stopped is because I sat down and had a good long look at the all20 and the all-factions patches. Till now I have been too busy working on my patch to properly examine it.
The all20 patch is unsecure and is completely open to all the abuses and cheats that people have been attributing to my proposed patch. It will only be a matter of time before this happens. I suggest everyone enjoy multiplayer while they can.
ErikJansen
03-29-2003, 16:48
Please don't inform the Org how the All20 can be abused http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
As for stopping work on your patch, thats all up to you Duck. I'm neither pleased or disappointed, though any eventual release to the public would have me concerned.
Oh and I'm giving you the thumbs up for accepting input and inviting a dialogue around the subject. Well done Duck and I look forward to meeting you online MTW.
Regards,
LeeJackson
03-29-2003, 20:48
I second ErikJansen.
Duck thank you for discussing it on the forum http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
I would love to see this patch out. If folks dont want to use it then they dont have to. As long as the better units are oriced accordingly to get balance it should be OK. Even if you dont release it I would love to have it and play the Mongols.....ifn I can ever get onto Gamespy again.
Dimeolas
well thnx for coming here duck, this is an important matter, what i suggest is you contact CA with your concerns or highlight your concerns to Puzz3D so he can pass them on ..
scenario .. you are about to play a 1vs1 on gamespy, your opponent picks Turks, so you follow and select Turks also, to give you a nice balanced battle. Once in game you notice your opponent has selected Lancers, Pavise Arbs, Byz Inf, Swiss Halbs and Templar knights. To your horror the match has effectively been ruined.
This mod is not the problem in itself, the main problem is the fact this mod could be even made The technique opens up avenues leading to the above scenario if abused. This is why i beleive that CA should be contacted regarding this matter.
thanks for coming here Duck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
EDIT: spelling http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
i didnt tryed it yet duck, but thank god for ur work and ur intention
maybe it was the wrong way to bring it up, but anyway u gave us more than others....so i thank u for it.
i dont think its a cheat, maybe its a bit unfair, but thats like i use spanish and u use almos....so who cares about this......
its all unbalanced anyway and noone realy care about all the nice ideas and mods wich was made by many persons. the mainprob is all do theyr own shit and as long u guys dont wake up and work together nothing will change.
we are MP and a very small market (some said 5%) and this 5% are not able to work together, i know how the reaction of some guys was as i tryed to improve it a bit, well with such reaction and behavior, which reminds me on little kids, with a BIG ego, we never will reach a good mod wich is used my all
some are just too arrogant.....some dont speak with other.... so this community isnt woth much.
koc
GoldenKnightX2
05-08-2003, 03:46
I think you did good discussing it duck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Kraellin
05-08-2003, 04:29
myself, personally, i find this a clever addition. i mean, if you've played any single player you've already played against every one of the factions he's added. so, there's no big surprises here. it's just other elements of the game added into mp. he's not hacking the stats of units. they are standard units.
however, i have to agree with puzz3d about the overall reaction. for the unknowing, this is going to raise eyebrows and possibly hackles. we've prolly all seen true cheats in other games and it's always annoying, so we do tend to get a bit suspicious when something that obviously isnt supposed to be there, there. and that's the point. it's not supposed to be there. see, game conditions are AGREED upon, first as set up by CA, and then by any player mods that are AGREED upon. and that's what a 'secret' mod violates. it violates the AGREEMENT under which folks are participating. so, when they see an obvious violation of this AGREEMENT, it's taken as a 'cheat'.
now, i too applaud your openness in this, because what you're doing is attempting to get that AGREEMENT here. that's a noble thing. the only question remains is if you're willing to accept that you may not.
K.
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