Cavalry tactics

[Div Hunter]

What do you usually do with your cavalry, charge dirctly at a unit (double click on them) or charge through the unit (charge at a point beyond the enemy)? I find that the most effective charge is a 'sideswipe' in a wedge fomation at a slight angle to the enemy unit then flank for melee or disengage (very easy from this position) for another charge. This manouver is only posibble by indirectly charging. I also find the indirect method much better for 'mopping up' as the formation doesn't stop for a single unit just rides everyone down then wheel around for another go.

[Kongamato]

Depends. In the case of chasing routers, charging through works best. This allows your cav to hold a wide formation without concentrating their force on the enemy unit commander. They then can go through the units in front of them and attack further ahead instead of methodically killing every soldier in the unit closest to them before moving forward.

If you plan only on using shock to defeat a unit, charging through will get you what you want, and will also help kill the fleeing enemies. Otherwise, if you simply look for unit-unit battle, double clicking on the enemy unit will suffice.

[Aelwyn]

I usually double click on the unit I want to attack. There might not be any difference, but I wonder if simply clicking ahead of the units causes any more casualities, or the possibility of them in your own unit. I find it doesn't matter much though, as long as I keep track of my cavs and they don't stray too far, or just stop when I need them, then theres not too much difference.

The only problem arises when I want them to attack a specific unit, and another unit which is closer ends up as their target.

[econ21]

IIRC, one of the CA people said you only get the charge bonus (often +8) against the unit you have charged. Maybe this does matter so much against routers, as they are so weak anyway. But for proper shock action it could be a big deal. It implies that avoiding your charge being intercepted (or intercepting an enemy charge) could be a big deal.

[Div Hunter]

That's quite interesting as I have found as I said above that the initial impact does much more damage than a dirrect charge. Granted this only really works (the sideswipe) if the enemy unit is attempting to engage another unit but it's not hard to get an AI unit to charge you. I suppose more testing is required http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Puzz3D]

Div Hunter,

I think you're right about the effectiveness of the sideswipe, and many veteran players use it to great advantage in MP. However, there are situations where the direct charge is preferable so that you get the added charge bonus. It takes a lot of playing experience to correctly judge which situation call for the sideswipe and which for the direct charge. One problem with the sideswipe is that, if the unit you are attacking is moving, it can be hard to plot a course for intercept without a lot of redirection. In MP, you cannot pause the game and excessive micromanagement of a unit takes away from overall army control.

[Michael the Great]

But do you click once on a unit?????????
they will just march till charging distance and then...ummm chaaarge. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[SmokWawelski]

Puzz3D: you are right that there is not time to worry about such specifics, unless this is a small battle, bulk of the units are engaged and you only have some royal knights sneaking up the side...

Even with PAUSE option it is too much (to say the truth I only use it when I need to ... you know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif)

I agree though that when moping up after the battle, charging over the unit seems to look better in terms of dead guys...

[Puzz3D]

SmokWawelski,

There are several MP players who use the technique to great effect, and their number is growing. They usually employ wide single line cav formations so they can comb the battlefield. A wide line sideswipe can be directed with less precision than a wedge or block would require. The wide lines are cumbersome to move, but, once they get into position on your flank, they are a very serious threat.

[Tiwaz]

I wish I sometimes had time to do something so carefully planned... Most of the time my battles end up being so chaotic that I'm too busy trying to stay on top of my enemy to give special orders to any single unit.

Go forth with my blessings my minions, I shall be on the opposite side of the battle next few minutes.

[spqromulus]

Its also good to click ahead of the units when a gap develops in the main line of battle. Although most cav are better at flanking the sides and rear, i'll sometimes use a Lancer to a forward whole through the front line if I see a gap developing by clicking ahead. It can be as devastating as a flank attack.

[Gregoshi]

Welcome to the Org Tiwaz. I know exactly how you feel. Once contact is made with the enemy, chaos errupts on my side. I have very poor battlefield vision. I find it amazing how others can appear to be everywhere in the battle.

[Tiwaz]

Thank you for the warm welcome Gregoshi, I have been lurking around for a while but found myself with too much time in my hands and too little interest to do any work so I decided to start posting here...

[Crackslapper]

EX Lancelot has done alot of testing on this topic for our clan. If you see him online ask him to send you his replays on single line cav, they are very interesting.
I think you have hit the true answer though. If you lose control of what is happening around you, its all over. The vet players will use speed to defeat you. How many times have you seen units doing nothing midway through a battle, because the player has effectively lost control of the situation. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Polish Crusader]

When charging at a pav line that has wandered too far from its protecting army I have found it much more effective to double click behind the pavs instead of on them. I always double-clicked on them until recently where I read somewhere to double click behind the unit. I then used it once and with some Prong cav I absolutely demolished a whole pav line (who very strangely was also the general). Their numbers went form 40 to 20 in just a few seconds, it was insane, I couldnt believe how effect it was. I think it was a pretty big fluke but its made me convert to double-clicking behind ever since.

[Puzz3D]

Yes the run through is insane when it works, and it looks to me like it's outside the combat cycle. In a combat cycle, each man gets to strike at their opponent before the death animation. So, two men can kill each other in the same combat cycle, and you see them fighting for a second or two. However, when you see one of these effective cav run throughs, it looks to me like the dead man was flatten before he could strike back. It appears to happen at the moment of contact. When that occurs, the cav doesn't loose any momentum and can run on at full speed into another enemy man where the same thing can happen. I've seen a cav unit that was marching very quickly kill 30 men in a cav unit that was attacking it head on without loosing a single man. It's not really clear what is going on in terms of game mechanics. It could be just a lucky run of random numbers, but it's highly unlikely. Once the momentum of the cav is broken by men who don't die on contact, the cav appear to enter the regular melee combat cycle.

Although men in a unit can spead out quite a lot when engaged, they are tied together by an elastic force. To my eye, the motion of the men in a unit seems to be tied tighter to the unit commander than to the other men. The motion of the commander seems to determine whether the unit tries to keep moving forward or stops to fight. When you double click on an enemy unit, the commander singles out an enemy man and engages him. When you double click behind the enemy, the commander tries to ride to a point on the map, although, in theory, you loose the charge bonus when you do that. Charge bonus goes away anyway as the unit looses momentum. Forward momentum is a very important factor in getting the most out of a cav unit.

Intuitively, you would not expect a double click behind to be better than a charge, but sometimes it is. I believe it depends on whether the cav has enough combat advantage (attack factor - enemy defend factor) on the unit it is encountering to kill on contact and thus maintain its momentum. Maybe there is a combat advantage threshold above which a kill is guaranteed. Run throughs are very effective when combined with the flanking combat bonus, but they are not nearly as effective when coming head on into a unit with good combat stats because the cav get stopped and have to enter into melee without getting those few extra initial kills that the charge bonus would have given them. Of course, charging spears or pikes is pointless since the cav charge bonus is cancelled anyway, but a frontal run through also doesn't work on spears or pikes. Combining a frontal sideswipe run though with long thin lines on a unit with an exposed flank can be effective because half of the cav will wrap around the enemy unit and get flank and rear combat attack bonuses as well as inflict a flanking morale penalty in the enemy unit.

[Rageagainst20]

i find it hard to control the tenassity (sp?) of my calvary but i find marching quikcly through an emeny in full rout extremmely effective

[SmokWawelski]

So to summarize: when mopping up, the charge through seems to be more effective. When attacking more organized force, you should still try to flank, and maybe consider the charge bonus from double-clicking the unit.

Yeah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (SmokWawelski @ May 02 2003,08:44)]So to summarize: when mopping up, the charge through seems to be more effective. When attacking more organized force, you should still try to flank, and maybe consider the charge bonus from double-clicking the unit.

Yeah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Cavalry excel at breaking the troops and then chasing them down... Though sometimes I find that run throughs can be difficult and that chaisng the enemy down is better.

But the advantage of a run through is that your troops will hold a reasonable formation.

[Popeye]

Most of the time my battles end up being so chaotic that I'm too busy trying to stay on top of my enemy to give special orders to any single unit.

As they say, no battle plan survives initial contact.

I'm going to offer you a few tips for battlefield control that usually work for me.

First and foremost, look at the battlefield before you do ANYTHING on attack or defense. Be as familiar as possible with what the ground looks like, so that you don't get confused later about just where a particular unit disappeared to. What I'm talking about is when a fast cav chases a fleeing unit to the map edge, and you can't see them anymore, so you double click on the unit, and you still don't know where they are. Know the terrain. Look at any available landmarks.

Using groups is anything but basic. There's more to control than simply saying groups. How you make the groups is important.

First, you want them all to have the same task. I don't normally group archers with infantry, unless it's for an attack march that I want to have stay in formation. I'll ungroup the archers on arrival, though.

Second, you want the groups to appear on the unit screen left to right to mirror their position on the battlefield. Say I defend with a front of six infantry, and put them into three groups of two. When the one in the middle is hit, and I want to swing around from the left, I know which pair that is just because of the order at the bottom of my screen. In addition, take the extra time to make sure that they appear within groups the same way. This saves time trying to figure out who is where. Even this planning goes to hell eventually, but the longer you can put off the chaos, the better.

Position your general properly. By all means put a defending general in woods, but put him on high ground, facing the front line. He MUST be able to see. This gives you the ability to double click on him when YOU get confused, and you will be re-oriented with the battlefield. As the battle develops, you might want to move him, but always with consideration of using him as your orientation point. If you plan to commit the general to combat early, have another unit for this task. I sometimes get discombobulated in battle, and this is how I get my bearings back.

Once you've deployed, your FIRST task at start is position the replacement flag, if available. You can move it later, but you do not want to waste valuable time on this decision, moving the camera, or placing it at random in the heat of battle. I always start by placing it near the general, and sometimes I later move it, sometimes I don't, but it never slows me down when I need the reinforcements in a hurry.