Using Arty in MP

[ichi]

I don't use artillery online, and when my opponent does it makes me want to go crush them. Having been in a number of MP games where the use of artillery, cannons especially, was a 'hot' topic in the verbal war, I wanted to find out what the community thinks.

ichi

[Kongamato]

Artillery causes lag. That has been my experience. It also has been unfortunately "balanced" into an effective anti-personnel weapon. There is no reason why two men, standing side by side, should both be killed by a 1 Kg ball or flying stone. None of these weapons were explosive. The guns presently in the game should be only used for knocking down castle walls.

My stance is that the lag issue makes it unbearable to play with artillery. This needs to be fixed in VI, as the Organ Gun will be present, which will no doubt have a use in the MP game.

[Alrowan]

well i generally dissuade from using it or promoting its use, nevertheless if an enemy camper takes some, then ill show no mercy

[Skomatth]

Artillery is fun for the guy who brings it. I wanna have fun in the game. Since with artillery you can't make sure of ur archers it generally removes a aspect from the game. I'm guilty of bringing artillery maybe 5 times in about 400 games I've played online and will never do it again after the one day where I had time for one game and the rest of the day would be devoted to slave labor and I faced a guy with 6 serps/demicannons and 12 horses in long lines...great fun. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[baz]

well i dont think using arty is a big problem unless someone brings like 4+ units of it, if they do it kinda takes the fun away for the attacker :S

[ErikJansen]

I never make use of arty anymore, simply because it doesn't fit my army compositions. I'm better off without it, not to mention the fact that I generally look upon the cannons as a cowards weapon. I don't mind my opponent bringing arty tho, I'll just have to deal with it.

The sound of arty being destroyed has become one of my fave MTW things. That and killing Pav Arbs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[tgi01]

I always ban artillery when hosting, and it works quite well , ok you have to repeat it a couple of times be4 the game starts ... that really you cant use it thats why the game is called NoArt, and ususally i dont have any problems filling up the games so I think most people are quite happy with the noartillery rules ...

tgi01

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I don't use it, but I don't mind if somebody else use it.

Sometime I set weather on rainy for the fun of it

If you are suspicious that your opponent will use a lot of cannon/arq/handgunner/naphta, I think it's fair.

But I have seen ppl leaving after an 'inadequate' weather forecast... That's life... Gunners got to live with the rain possibility...

Louis,

[Knight_Yellow]

well i use catapults but not often at all

yesterday i faced a 16 cannon army and a all hvy calv army, my ally wouldnt attack them so i whent in and lost 15 units before i got to them.

the art had ran outa ammo so my ally whent in and my gen ran down the art crews

[Tera]

I've seen a replay of a game which points out very clearly one of the biggest imbalances in the game.

Imagine: 10 heavy knights all in a single line supported by 6 catapults.

A rush with the heavy knights while catapults were firing did the job - 2 full armies routing.

Artillery are boring. I wouldn't encourage their use in games that aren't specifically 'fun' games.

Tera.

[MF_Ivan]

I think they are well balanced, at a distance they're quite useless. Up close they are effective. The price is quite right.

It really all depends, there are many variations but no perfect strategy or tactic.

I love the many choices we are given, whats the point of restricting ourselves?

[Skomatth]

i believe im correct in saying that serps cover almost all the map with their range if you set up in the middle

[Krasturak]

Gah

Cannons are like guns ... but bigger

Gah

Krast loves guns, and these 'artillery' thingies are the most exciting part of game since Krast's first musket unit in STW.

Unfortunately, they have bad habit of hitting enemy general, which makes it hard to find body and cut head off after victory.

Otherwise, cannon do not bother Krast.

It's those pesky naptha guys that annoy Krast the most.

[MF_Ivan]

Krast make funny. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya thinks artillery can be a lot of fun. Vanya likes to stuff freshly "harvested" heads into the barrels and fire them onto the unsuspecting enemy.

"If you must die in battle to a cannonade, it might as well be the head of your neighbor, Bob, that shatters your meek, mortal body."
-- Vanya, during His "Reach out and touch somebody" speech to the armed services of Iraq in 1987.

Furthermore, Vanya's "People's Crusade for the Liberation of Man from the Oppression of Freedom" frequently teaches young recruits that artillery combined criss-crossing arquebus broadsides is the most effective means of denying your men the chance to "wet their feet" in battle, and thus maintain a permeating sense of innocence and romanticism within the troops. Vanya tells His people this makes it easier for the citizenry to sign up for the crusade and more willing to die for Vanya's Whim.

And that is what it's all about. There are no 72 virgins in heaven, no salvation from the fires of Hell awaiting you in the afterlife. There is only the satisfaction of knowing you died for your overlord and master (Vanya).

The hills are alive with the sound of Vanya's stampeding culvie wedgies slamming into the grazing gothic kinigits of overconfident enemy pig-dogs

GAH

[Acronym]

I don't mind other's using art, but I rarely, if ever, use it. I find it more entertaining to get in close and do much more damage with Naptha throwers.

[Krasturak]

Quote[/b] (Acronym @ Feb. 28 2003,14:09)]Naptha throwers.
Any game that bans cannon should also ban these fiendish criminals.

[Nobunaga0611]

No, I never take it, and I really don't like it when other people do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[MF_Ivan]

Whats wrong with Naptha?

[ErikJansen]

Yeah, whats wrong with the boomin napthas??? HJI line with 2 napthas close behind... *booom* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

I like napthas

[ichi]

Almost one week into the poll, and . . .

As I thought, most either do not use artillery or do not like it when their opponent brings it, but . . .

we all seem to be big boys and girls who can handle it.

Some folks seem to love artillery. As my honorable father said, "Its not that it takes all kinds, son, but we got all kinds"

At any rate, you'all have given me a great idea. Next time I'm Byz and my opponent brings arty, I'm gonna bomb the damn ballista/mangonel/cannon/whatever crew with NAPTHA

ichi

[Swoosh So]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....y100568 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=4;t=7509;st=0;&#entry100568)


My opinion on artillery

[EvilTinksta]

Tinky like to go BOOMBOOM
Tinky bring's 8 or 10 of them at a time.
he call's this the tubbie BOOMBOOM ARMY
Tinky go's BOOM BOOM BOOM
But Tinky alway's ask the attacker of defender if they mind the Tinksta bringing his tubbie Cannon's.
Oh Tinky also like's naplam they go boom boom to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[LRossaLordJimi]

Maybe Byza have Napalm Throwers? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Ave

[tgi01]

I think you should be allowed to kill allied naphtas as a slef-defence measure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


tgi01

[LRossaRikimaru]

First post in Jousting fields http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

i think that arty is quite useless...
there are plenty of contromisure for taking minimun damage from it: example 1)Arba far from troops only cover by cav, in this manner the cannon make 5/6 victim each.
2) arba in centre of the army with the infantry not rear them
3) not deploy in 3/4 rows but in single line army.

with this simple things you can avoid the mass cannon or catapult killings. I'm pretty amazed by player that if see one catapult start to cry out and make a whirwind rush attack lol


See you m8s

LRossaRikimaru Doge del Canavese

[LRossaLordJimi]

Ave RikiThx for tips,every time very helpfull,i will sign in my notepad eheh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
But i think arty is an easy to way to make damage without fine tactic or strategic principle.The people who like manoeuvre in a battle,who like traps for cav,movement to get rear of enemy,cav archers for make enemy's army tired and other sweet things like this,don't take artillery http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
*Campaign against artillery in wargames* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Ave
Forza & Onore

[LRossaRikimaru]

you are right Jimi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif not great strategy using that.

My post in only for encourage who is scare under the fire of the cannons http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

LRossaRikiz

[baz]

glad you could make it riki http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[TheViking]

i dont use arty,, and i dont care if others do,, they are a part of the game. And people who ban others just for using aryts are killing that part of the game, IMO.

[Lechev]

Use to bring in arty when still a newbie. Now i didn't use them coz cannon balls an't smart missles and they take up the limited units i can deployed.

I won't mind if opponent use them but i would usually discourage the usage of cannons due to leverage of fair play. However, cannon can sometime be useful to make those campers take the initiative. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Aelwyn]

I really dislike artillery. It just basically wastes time. Because if someone only brings one unit, then I'm going to be forced to move back and forth until they run out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif . Thus wasting both of our time. And if the opponent has an art/cav army then i'll just rush and get it over with, then not play with that person again in a late era game.

[Skomatth]

I think the reason artillery should or should not be taken is whether or not it is fun (cause thats y we play the game right?). What defines fun for most people is their acceptable win/loss ratio, why some people play vs newbs and why some of us play only against better players but most play vs equal skill. If people take artillery it significantly increases their chance to win in late games. To beat people taking artillery then average skilled players have to play against people with uh.. no skill. It is no fun to be on the receiving end of 5 artillery pieces of a late period game. That's what artillery takers need to keep in mind. This is a game where all is not fair, not war where it is.

[Shahed]

Well me I don't care. I like even balance. So it means most of you need artillery to win http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Also I personally don't care if i face 8 lancers and 8 serps. But not every game please.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[ErikJansen]

I like Sinans Ottoman formation, and that includes art.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Lots of bang, frontal cav assaults and no pavs What more can one ask? Ok winning with it might not be so easy, but... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[tgi01]

Does anyone has an idea what was the real firing rate of medievial cannon ?


tgi01

[Shahed]

Heya Van, tgi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Actually it's not my formation, it's an historical Ottoman formation, modified for MTW.

You can set up approx like so (1 playa):

SI A A HC HC HC HC A A SI

LC JHI JHI JHI JHI LC

SI = Saracen infantry
A = Arty
HC = Heavy Cav
LC = Light Cav
JHI = Jani Heavies

The rate of fire for meddy canons was probably very slow. However I wonder of that is really relevant, for the MTW game. In MTW canons seem to fire fast, but then we could also ask the question:

how fast did meddy warriors walk ?

They seem to cover kilometers in minutes in MTW.
Game time is not the same as real time.

-Salute- http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Efrem Da King]

I don't like catapults and such it is just unrealistic as they would never have been used in a field battle in real life, but culverin level and upwards cannon were made for field battles, and I don't see why they shouldn't be included in armies. Most arguements I have heard against them could also be leveled at arbs.

[ichi]

Whoa - this thread is back from the dead and ready to shred

9 months - its like a pregnancy

Still one of my favorite threads, tho.

aregato Ephrem

ichi

[Efrem Da King]

I put that I like to watch and listen to the proctectiles because they are soooo cool.

[Kas]

I don't use artillery because it's "not done", but I don't have problems with it myself. In fact...I think 1 or 2 pieces can be very entertaining and naphta rocks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/birthday.gif

When used by campers...well...campers are never fun I think.

Kas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Ashen]

I just sit and watch the cannons fire. its fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I remember getting badly routed as Italians in late vs an english army of 4 bills 3 longbows and the rest all cannons. I lost more than half my army by the time I got to him (I was knight and foot-knight heavy with some light cav) and broke nearly instantly. not fun :/

but I still love to watch them fire. and explode when firing ^^

[Orda Khan]

Is it any worse than total imbalance due to silly upgrades?

...But no, I don't use it because it just isn't interesting enough, for me.

...Orda

[Brutal DLX]

Well, if you don't go overboard with arty, I have no problems, if somebody always camps at the map edge with a couple of serps to kill your gen then he will become a very lonely camper indeed.
A real artillery duel before the battle has been joined can be good fun and add to the flavour. Also the use of gunpowder units on a greater scale can be fun. All the high era games with virtually the same armies again and again become boring to me quickly, I like different settings. It's the upgrades and the zest of winning by any means (even cheesy ones) that ruins the games, not the units you pick.

[Ja'chyra]

The units are there to be chosen, so use them if you like.

I think any one who doesn't take them into account with his troop selection and tactics only has himself to blame. A good general should should be able to adapt to the situation, not complain when he doesn't anticipate the enemy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gossip.gif

Sits back and waits for the barrage http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

[7Bear7Polar]

i only take them when i host fun games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif

[vlad_demstra]

i use then for when i know im on a defence that needs to be broken :)

[Morcini]

Artillery... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
Usually, I can withstand it. Just give it time, and it will sure enough run out.
My worst experience with art was when my ally, who was taking heavy casualties, decided to work his way into my formations. I was being hit by art too...and somehow he thought that by sticking together, and instead of havin the art concetrate on 2 armies, they can just hammer at one big group

But artillery is at it's best when they're setting up their formations before your army. It is better accurate, and rushes them.

It was made into the game, so there is nothing really wrong with it.

[AggonyDuck]

I'm actually in favour of using arty in late era games, I find it a nice addition and I find arty to be the perfect counter for pavs... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
And Culvs rock on attack :)
But anyways arty is easy to counter, like by going behind a hill
or taking an artillery piece of my own.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I love attacking crecy on late with arty btw..it's quite fun.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif