VOTE PLEASE-Monol&swiss units online

[Mithrandir]

A player online has enabled swiss,mongol and some other units to be played online.

There are some problems however, you can pick all the units of the faction you choose,the 3 mongol units (MHC,MCA&MI) & faction specific units (almughavars,SAP's for germans, highland clansmen for English etc.).
The main problem is that there are no more eras, since you get to pick all units of the faction.

So say you host an early era game, you'd still get to pick Gothic knights,handgunners etc.

This could lead to people playing late era units in an early era game, without the other people in the game knowing it, and thus creating an unfair advantage.

However, releasing this beta could also mean lodas of fun with the new units...


The intention of the maker of this mod is to make it a mod which has the mongols,swiss units and some other units (highland clansmen etc.) enabled,but not in _every_ era nor enabling mongol units for every faction.

I hope I've posted all that he meant, anyway, please vote in this poll...

[CBR]

We already have mods that can do that..no need for more..

CBR

[Sir Black Raven]

yes please do it asp http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Puzz3D]

Mith,

Why doesn't he come here and see what's already available for MP mods instead of re-inventing the wheel? It seems like the All20.exe already does what he's attempting to do. If he has an original idea for an MP mod, he needs someone to work with him to get it working properly, and he should read the posts in the Dungeon forum to see what other people have done and how they did it. I don't think this mod he has should be released because it's not working properly. We don't need it to play all factions since we already do that, and we don't do it in a way that only some players get the extra units.

[Mithrandir]

I havent been clear obviously,
the mod is the "cheat" Elmo posted about.

This means the other eople dont need the mod installed to be able to play it.
A huge advantage imho, no need to tell people where to download a certain mod, install it, de-install it afterwards etc.

Here are my 2 main concerns however :

1 : "cheaters",people abusing the mod in games which weren't intended for extra units/era units.
2:Imbalance, the mongols seem a bit unbalanced, as some other troops.

He hasn't posted himself here yet because he has just registrerd. He will soon though.

[LadyAnn]

It seems there are problems associated with the Mod and it seems there is no satisfactory answer.

If I understand it correctly, the mod allows people to play more units but as a side effect, make all units available at any era. And this is done without an ordinary player to know about (until seeing the out-of-place unit, of course): the game still advertize as any normal game.

Now, the question is to publish the mod or not.

1. If we publish the Mod (let's not call it a cheat yet), the game will lose the era/faction distinction because all units will be available to all factions for whoever has the mod. And everyone has to install the mod or have a huge disadvantage.

2. If we don't publish the Mod, then only a few knew about it. In that case, it is even worst than above, because it is a real cheat now.


So, I think:

1. We should publish it and live with the lost of era/faction (revert back to the STW era);

2. Ask the Developpers to issue an immediate v1.2 patch that fix the bug (and add the all-20 mod as integral part of v1.2; a few tweak in unit availability and stat is also very appreciated).

Annie

[Magyar Khan]

yup i agree, although we all know it will never be done official.

somehow noobs should be aware that they have to dl and how to dl a mod. such a mod must be advertised big on teh org

[ErikJansen]

Gah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Crandaeolon]

How about a third option:

3) Do not release the beta and ban the CD-keys of all who are using it.

I'd vote for that. If nonstandard units were enabled, all players involved should know about it. That means installing a mod. The method this topic is about is a cheat; it allows a player to do something outside the rules that the other players can't, and if they don't know all units of all factions by heart, they may not even be aware of it.

I hate cheaters. They have ruined (or just made unfun, which in my book equals ruined) many games I've played online during some point of the game's life; Counter-Strike, Tribes 2, Diablo 2 to mention a few. In all of those I was eventually forced to play with people I know not to cheat. D2 was particularly bad as cheating could literally mean the difference of life and death to a hardcore character.

Medieval should be fairly cheat-proof as each computer makes the same calculations as the battle unfolds, and if there are differences in stat files the game goes out of sync. For me this particular cheat is not much of an issue, I'll simply ignore & ban cheaters should they ever get caught in my games.

[baz]

Mith, i agree that it would be nice as all players having a particular mod is very rare, however im pretty sure it would make some chaos in MP unfortunately :S

[LRossaLordJimi]

I vote NO This mod can make really chaos in MP.I like play in early and high era,a different tactic is needed,if i can take every units,where will go this aspect of strategy? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

If someone is bored by usin' same units,just install All20 mod,work very good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif (or wait and buy VI&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Ave

[Puzz3D]

Mith,

You were very clear, and there was no misunderstanding on my part that this was the player that Elmark encountered. I still refer your back to my earlier post in this tread:

Why doesn't he come here and see what's already available for MP mods instead of re-inventing the wheel? It seems like the All20.exe already does what he's attempting to do. If he has an original idea for an MP mod, he needs someone to work with him to get it working properly, and he should read the posts in the Dungeon forum to see what other people have done and how they did it. I don't think this mod he has should be released because it's not working properly. We don't need it to play all factions since we already do that, and we don't do it in a way that only some players get the extra units.

[Mithrandir]

He (Duck) has fixed the era bug, and sent me the new&improved file.

quoting his email :


Quote[/b] ]
attached is a new version of the file

all periods are correct, and troop types limited to specific nationalities

1. mongols are now the russians, include spearman,naptha,urban militia, some light spear cav and khwarizims

2. swiss are now the polish, typical mid-european exclusive use of sap's

3. italian and germans can use swiss pike but not sap's

4. italian,german,spainish,swiss(polish) can use almughavars

5. english have scots

6. danes have lithuanian cav

7. french have turcopoles

8. turks and byz have steppe cav



To answer your post Puzz :



Quote[/b] ]Why doesn't he come here and see what's already available for MP mods instead of re-inventing the wheel? It seems like the All20.exe already does what he's attempting to do.

not reinventing the wheel, this mod allows to be played without the need for the other players in the game to have it installed as well. Also he has changed some factions&available units.


Quote[/b] ]If he has an original idea for an MP mod, he needs someone to work with him to get it working properly, and he should read the posts in the Dungeon forum to see what other people have done and how they did it. I don't think this mod he has should be released because it's not working properly.

He has fixed it now.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really like the idea of it either, but mainly from a balancing point of view...

[Mithrandir]

Now, if only tootee or Wolf could change the title to MonGol instead of monol, everything would be nice & fuzzy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Orda Khan]

Not interested. Why not have a thousand unit choices and make an army of 16 units from the choice. This adds nothing of any value to the game. If I want Mongol units I'll use All 20 and field a 'Mongol' army

......Orda

[LadyAnn]

Cran:
If we could establish a court that has jurisprudence for banning a CD key, then I am all for your solution. We don't want lynch mob mentality.

However, I would say I hate the banning solution. Says Creative Assembly: if they ban a CD key, would that be like taking money from the guy and not let him play? After all, he only do something that is in the boundary allowed, just that CA code was not robust enough to prevent it to happen. He didn't hack into the executable code(violating his license), nor he have access to CA source code(violating CA's intenllectual properties).

Would you like to have Microsoft banning you from using Windows program for any reason?

Puzz3D:
If we could ask the person not to release his knowledge to the public, then vote "no". But if the knowledge is already leaking out, then I would say "yes". I would still go with "letting CA fix the bug and close the security hole".

Am not disputing your argument that if someone want to know how to mod it correctly to have all playaable factions, he should go to Dungeon and learn from there. I am addressing the threat that the mod may potentially turn into a cheat. One guy can do it, other will do it.

Annie
ps.: I think my answer at the moment is "no, don't release the weapon of mass destruction, ask the person to withhold his knowledge, wait until it becomes a problem."

[Kongamato]

If this was used online then it is already too late. The very idea of cheating ruins many a game and wrongly discredits the victories of honest players. I can only hope that the creator of this has only used it in limited situations and is willing to withold the program from the public. There are droves of frustrated newbies who would be eager to take revenge on others with this.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I believe fgd duck has posted in the Entrance Hall. Let's reply there.

Here is the link

fgd duck post (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=4735)

Louis,

[LadyAnn]

I read fgd_duck's post on Entrance Hall and he said he will use the mod even if we don't want him to release it.

So, he and whoever he feels like to give the patch to, will have the unfair advantage. So the "no" vote doesn't make sense anymore. The patch should be released and if fgd_duck doesn't want to release it, we will have to work on finding it ourselves (and I believe we do have some collective knowledge about how it could be done).

I urge everyone to vote "yes" now and also urge CA developpers to quickly extinguish this threat, or your cow will be very mad.

Annie

[ErikJansen]

Nope LadyAn, I just strongly disagree.

I'm usually a very laid back fella, but if I spot someone with irregular units in games I participate in that person will be summarily #banned & #ignored from whatever games I host unless permission has been given first.

Permission may well be given, though without informing the others present this IS a form of cheating no matter how you look at it. Personally I don't see any reason for shifting the game balance in a way not originally intended.

Just imagine the Turks with a Pav Arb line http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Edit: I realise this will not be possible with the mod, but its a horror example of what can happen if the mod goes rogue. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Regards,

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]If we could establish a court that has jurisprudence for banning a CD key, then I am all for your solution. We don't want lynch mob mentality.

However, I would say I hate the banning solution. Says Creative Assembly: if they ban a CD key, would that be like taking money from the guy and not let him play? After all, he only do something that is in the boundary allowed, just that CA code was not robust enough to prevent it to happen. He didn't hack into the executable code(violating his license), nor he have access to CA source code(violating CA's intenllectual properties).


So how is this "patch" implemented? Is it a separate exe?

Even so, it modifies the game's functions by altering the data sent to the server. If it's legally allowable, it's pretty much in the grey area. However, that's not the crux of the problem and personally, I don't care one bit if it's _legal_ or not.

What I care about is an enjoyable online experience. CA and Gamespy are (at least partially) responsible for it. In my opinion, to offer an enjoyable multiplayer gaming experience the developers and service providers should attempt to keep the online environment free of cheating, excessive trash talk and other such stuff. Also in my opinion it's nowhere near excessive to ban players from entering the online environment if they're found to cause disruptions, be it cheating, sexual harassment or a poisonous attitude. In MTW's case, it's still possible to play single player, on LAN, or to use the MTW Proxy to play IP games without GameSpy. (I'm in full support of using the proxy and IMO direct IP functionality should have been included with the game.)

Even the possibility of a cheat causes friction in the community in the form of accusations. Now that we have a proven possibility to give a player something the other players lack, there _will_ be more accusations of cheating. Merely bringing the subject up caused a rather somber discussion.

If someone came to a game hosted by me and told me he was going to use the "patch" to play some exotic faction I'd just ask if the others are ok with it. If not, I'd politely ask the player to leave. If someone used the "patch" against me without telling me first, I'd probably tolerate it, especially if the person was well known to me. I draw the line before large team games (i.e. using the "patch" without all players knowing about it) and competitive games of any form; using the "patch" in such instances would definitely be cheating.

[baz]

i think this needs to be treated very carefully, if it gets out how to do this then everyone will be making there own unit sets http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Orda Khan]

Everyone picking random armies??? I can't believe this
I can not see a reason to implement this and repeat what I said before...It adds nothing of any value to the game
Surely it will just cause a useless mess.

Ignore the Mod
Ignore him
Ignore those who use it
Lol...Ignore me as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

......Orda

[ErikJansen]

Ok Orda, if you insist I will ignore you, but I've appreciated your posts up to this point of time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Stormer]

new units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif yippe.

[LadyAnn]

Just played in a game where Duck was in, and he crashed ("Stat diverge") well into the middle of the game, perhaps when a unit was encountered with a stat difference. This is clearly not the case of "stat diverge" due to playing single-mode and switch to multi-mode without restarting the game program.

I am glad we received the message, because there was no warning from Duck that he has been tinkering with unit stats (or whatever he is modding). However, it ruined the fun of the other 7 persons when Duck was dropped.

As far as I know, with or without the "good intention", it was an attempt to cheat.

Annie

[Puzz3D]

The pre-game stat check is there for a reason. The reason is to ensure that everyone in the game is using the same stat, and that check should not be circumvented. The game runs independently on each machine in the battle, and the machines all have to stay in sync throughout the battle for the game to work. In addition, having unit types, unit capabilities or more florins than other players without their knowledge is unfair.

[fdg_duck]

To Ladyann

I have more than one version of my patch, there are three multi-player and 4 single-player versions.

I had been testing a new army in custom battles using one of the single-player versions just before playing that game and had neglected to swap to the equivalent multi-player version.

"stat diverge" can happen at any time during a game, not just at the pre-check stage.

[LadyAnn]

Of course, "stat diverge" happens any time during game. At beginning, it checks the stat (but obviously has not checked it thorough enough and that was the loophole you and others have found). If someone simply edit the stat files, or if you switch from single player to multi-player without quitting (reloading) the stats, that's what happened.

However, during game, the first time a unit with different stat than other players' stat is encountered, the "stat diverge" happens. That's when a modding was done and somehow the basic checking at beginning of the game was circumvent.

I said in my post "with or without good intention..." that means I gave you some benefit of doubt that you did make a honnest mistake as you have clarified above. It doesn't prevent me and the other 6 players from thinking you have ruined the fun.

Annie