All is fair in love and war

[Skomatth]

I usually try never to get into debates witk out of clan members but what really ticks me off is when I can't have fun. Most of the time not having fun is a result of someone bringing cannons or having people knowingly manipulate inbalances in the game. The purpose of the game is to have fun and people who selfishly take several cannons and 4 juiced up lancers and in it for their own fun. I don't think anyone finds it exciting to attack a camper with 8 or so long range cannons across the map. I don't think anyone has ever complained of a semi and well balanced army, have you? Fun for me is the infinite # of tactics you can have with the same army when you are playing against many different ones, even if you lose but not if you take cannons. (yes this is mostly about artillery, I mean really can anything else do so much uncounterable damage?

[ErikJansen]

HF boys n girls http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

In my Ravens Nest games there are no rules, bring what you wish and what is available. Main point is that we all have a good time and compete in a friendly and honorable manner.

As for cannons, well I dub them the great equaliser. Skilled players will usually not bring these, but it might help the newbie even the odds some. Not bad in my book. Remember that one unit of arthur is one less unit to spend in manuevers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Regards,

[Puzz3D]

Play in high era where siege weapons are not unbalanced.

[ErikJansen]

High is the era I personally prefer, though late can be a blast as well as long as you dont mind the cannonball rain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Pity those Ottoman Siphai are Late only..

[Skomatth]

Art is less of a problem in high but how does a unit that doesnt have a specific counter unit ever going to be balanced?

[Cheetah]

IMHO arty is not a big problem unless it is handled by AMP http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif If you pick arty then you are restricting your own room for manouvre. As an attacker against arty heavy armies you just have to take advantage of this fact. Basicaly, if the left wing guy has arty then attack on the right, if the right wing guy has arty then attack on the left, if both has arty then you are in trouble http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Basicaly, keep your nerve, never rush the gun guy and try to leave them to the last. As said, I had little problem with arty except when handled by AMP http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif but that is another story http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Last, I have to admit that i mostly play on High just for sure ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[LRossaLordJimi]

People have different concept of fun,i have just my own and i like to share with players who have the same.
I have no problems with arty,honourable players just take some and give a different tactical direction from normal one,this is good.Some other just like to win and crash and run and rush,so i dind't found fun in this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
So i like play with interesting players that i found knowin this community http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

I think in war a very important valour is the honour.
No rules in love http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Ave

[tootee]

arty doesnt bother us, although I voted for Gah *my religious belief prohibit from voting otherwise http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif*

arty or no arty, sg most probably will still crash and run and rush http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif all for fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Alrowan]

hmm... i belive anything goes... you might not like it, but thems the rules.. the only guidlines i see as legitimate are those that CA has left us with. If you cant handle those rules and need to make up your own, make sure everyone agrees before you click ready

[Major Robert Dump]

Yeah, anything goes.

You wont find me complaining about lancers or artillery. If you use something enough then I will know you use it and I will try to counter it best i can.

If I do ban arty in a game its generally in a big one where I know there may be noobs playing. It has more to do with someone bringing 14 cannons and getting themsleves killed easily than it does with the fact that I have to fight the cannons.

My only rule is dont verbally abuse me if I mess up, and don't take friendly hints as "buggery" and start calling me bossy...how can I be bossy when I don't even know what I'm doing??? (you know who you are)

[Mithrandir]

I dont like to see all-cav rush armies, which end the game in 2 minutes, either way.

And I get _really_ bored of seeing Byz&Spanish every single game, but besides that... (artilery) its ok.

(artillery doesnt really kill enough to be a problem imho.)

[Kensai Achilles]

If u feel bored or sad just join "Lancelot's Stupid Army" game that i host. heheh i'm sure u'll have more fun than i do. I usually host it when i feel like clowning and breaking the unit taxing rules.

Used to name it "Bring your funny army" but somehow people felt challenged instead and brought some serious army so I changed the name. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

I have several silly looking army setups, i think u've played one of em sko. oh and b4 u join, bit of warning they're not balanced army and can still pack a nasty punch. They are non artillery army no worries http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif and mostly infantry based. Some of em look kinda scarry but they have some unupgraded infantries (i'm not telling ya which ones http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). Some of em look ridiculously weak, but can be a handfull if charged head on http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Mithrandir]

yay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

Host it now and I'll join.

*boots MTW&logs on*

[Aelwyn]

If someone has to use certain units to win, then they shouldn't win, in my opinion. I don't like it when someone takes artillery, is cocky about it and says something like "catch" before the first few hit, and then laugh about it like they're funny. Those people need to be rushed, and every one of their men put to the sword. If its someone who isn't cocky about it though....I don't mind.

[LRossaLordJimi]

I forget to say that when i want a nice funny match i like take desert map and muslims.They are really enjoyable http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Or maybe for have fun i have to found Krast and organize a 4vs4 for massive cut head off http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Very funny yesterday vs Krast,Aleborg,Alioven and Andy,we have to rematch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Ave

[alioven]

Yup, Jimi. For sure I'll repeat that battle, as in that one Aleborg & Andy both took too much head soup, and I would like to collect some more heads next time.

Mithrandir, I know one player (and good friend) who has been using mostly all-cav armies since Shogun, and not for a rush but for one of the most beauty battles I've ever seen. And yes, you can beat him if you play properly, so no abuse intended, just fair and nice gameplay (not one-line cavs, not rushes, not mad dancing).

[Krasturak]

Quote[/b] (LRossaLordJimi @ April 07 2003,04:29)]Or maybe for have fun i have to found Krast and organize a 4vs4 for massive cut head off http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Very funny yesterday vs Krast,Aleborg,Alioven and Andy,we have to rematch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Ave
Gah

Cut head off

Gah

[Mithrandir]

Ali :

quote : I dont like to see all-cav rush armies

I dont mind ha/melee cav armies.

[ShadesPanther]

What really annoys me is some people who play spain.
half their army is cav
roughly 4 lancers, 4 Saintiago knights 4 pav arbs and 4 assorted infantry

I honestly dont think Lancers should be high period as really there is nothing to defeat them.

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (ShadesPanther @ April 19 2003,10:36)]What really annoys me is some people who play spain.
half their army is cav
roughly 4 lancers, 4 Saintiago knights 4 pav arbs and 4 assorted infantry

I honestly dont think Lancers should be high period as really there is nothing to defeat them.
nothing except halberdiers,swiss halberdiers,camels,orderfoot,Jannisary Heavy inf, just to name a few of the most succesful counters...

[Paolai]

ShadesPanther is right, Im agree with him.
Mithrandir, I can show you that an army like that is near to be invicible vs all the other factions. It will be a plesure for me if you want a test vs me, I will show you that I cannot loose 1 game with this army if you dont choose spanish aswell

[Mithrandir]

There is again the factor of which gen controls it...

I'm not saying that lancers are nicely balanced, I'm saying that they can be beaten by units 1v1 at the same or eve n lower costs...

[ShadesPanther]

What i have seen it doesnt require skill. They just engage their units and flank with the lancers causing your unit to flee at impct even if it was beating the unit engaged with it easily.
Or
they just charge everything in and steam roller your whole army even units that shouldnt break

[ErikJansen]

Steamroll Spanish Setup (Triple S http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif )

4 Pav
4 Lancers
4 Feud Knights
4 CMAA

Its pretty cheesy.

As for the 'challenge test' offered by Paolai towards Mithrandir, I'd like to see that. When easter time is over I should be back online, and would love to see some setup which can permanently defeat me (part from the obvious skill which will be displayed by the honorable Paolai, that is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

[Crandaeolon]

The crux of the "problem" is that the Lancers are faster than all the units that can "counter" them. Halberdiers, Spearmen et al can simply be evaded. Also, none of these "counter" units can survive being sandwiched between two units of Lancers. But what Panther said...

Quote[/b] ]What i have seen it doesnt require skill. They just engage their units and flank with the lancers causing your unit to flee at impct even if it was beating the unit engaged with it easily.

... I don't fully agree with that "doesn't require skill" -part. No unit can simply shrug off a cav impact in the rear unless the cav is something like unupgraded Saharan Cavalry. Flanking and hitting the rear is king in this game, and pray tell me, how does it not require skill to outmaneuver your opponent? That claim would have more validity if you had said that Lancers can expect to take other cav head-on and win and _then_ proceed to hit enemy infantry in the rear, unopposed by cavalry. And, this _can_ be done with Lancers. Still, skilled generals can support their own cavalry properly with anti-cav infantry units, and the Swiss Halberdiers, for instance, can make life very difficult for the Spanish player.

I'd like to take Paolai's challenge too. The only rules I want is 4-max and that Paolai uses the exact same über-army in every match. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Edit: "German Swiss Halberdiers" just sounded too stupid to survive... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Paolai]

its ok Cranda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif email me to fix a time to paolo@h2s.it:
I will use always the same army (lancers & santiagos based) 4 max rule its ok, you can choose the faction that you want (but no spanish) with no fix army for you.

[Crandaeolon]

If ya play on evenings around 16-22 GMT this week, we'll most likely bump into each other online, so there shouldn't be a need to pre-arrange. Mithrandir (Glorfindel) is always online http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif, so I guess we can get the tests going without much sweat.

I'd prefer a Flatinlands map, 04 or 06 for example, but if ya want Steppes that's fine. I'll be using a fairly balanced German army in the first game, modifying that as necessary.

[ShadesPanther]

Quote[/b] ]Lancers can expect to take other cav head-on and win and _then_ proceed to hit enemy infantry in the rear, unopposed by cavalry
Well they do do this alot But what ive seen is that they swamp your anti cav units with infantry and then take out your cav with the Lancers then go for your infantry.

It is pretty silly considering that they attack your cav with lancers, have very little casualties and then are able to attack infantry engaged or not and win. Altogether they would have about 10 casualties.

Flanking doesnt require as much skill as you would think. They just have Lancers on the sides, kill your anti flanking units and easily just carge other units. I was able to do this on my first day online

[Mithrandir]

Panther, you have no right to talk of "not requiring skill" when playing with spanish...

or do you want me to post the replay of russians beating Spanish&byz again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

j/k.

As I said lancers _are_ overpowered, however I haven't seen many opponents use them in such a way I could not effectively counter them or swing the battle in another way...

I also like to take up the challenge Paolai has proposed, and like cran I'd like to have multiple chances http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

btw. I feel the urge to give credit for that set-up to CBR, I think he first used it. Quite a nasty suprise when I first encountered it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]But what ive seen is that they swamp your anti cav units with infantry and then take out your cav with the Lancers then go for your infantry.

I don't see a problem with taking anti-cav infantry out with other infantry, of course. It's exactly how it _should_ be done. Swords take out spears and halberdiers, spears and halbs can win against cav... but the "problem" (and I use the term loosely) is that cavalry are fast. Unless the enemy makes a mistake and lets halberdiers attack cavalry (which does happen sometimes to even the best of us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif), those anti-cavs simply can't catch up. In balanced setups, the only foolproof counter to cavalry is something that can keep up with them, that means _other_ cavalry, and Lancers can eat most other cavalry for breakfast. That's where the balance is messed up, and the general without Lancers must compensate somehow, like pinning the Lancers in place with lesser cavalry, flanking them and/or attacking the pinned cavalry with cav-killer units (=halberdiers).

Gothic Knights and Camels, the primary anti-cav "cavalry", are all slower than Lancers. Gothics are also only available in Late, and only the inherently weaker Muslim factions have camels. Mamluk cavalry are the best anti-cav cavalry unit, but they're exclusively Egyptian, and Egypt has arguably the worst infantry in the game, no match for the stock Catholic infantry the Spanish have. Mamluk cav isn't very hot against infantry either.

The Spanish are so good because they have no real weaknesses, and they have the obvious strength of Lancers. If there are no weaknesses to exploit, the strength must be somehow nullified. Simple logic, no?

Which brings us to the anti-cav infantry again. Those are _vital_ against Lancers, one must _not_ let other infantry chop them up Those Swiss Halbs, Billmen et cetera must be protected. Not only that, they must be used, which means clever and quick maneuvering, perhaps some creative formations and traps.

Note that I didn't mention missiles. That's another problem in the grander balance, they simply aren't effective enough. The main problem, which is the inability of the missile units to slow down charges, can't be fixed by stat-tweaking. Only a patch or a new engine could do that.


Quote[/b] ]Flanking doesnt require as much skill as you would think. They just have Lancers on the sides, kill your anti flanking units and easily just carge other units. I was able to do this on my first day online

Next time, try to play against someone who doesn't let you kill his/her anti-cav units... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Paolai]

Sure, it will be nice to have a multiple test also vs you Mithrandir.
What Cranda said is right, the anticavs are simply too slow to be effective (my opinion), and in that way the only anti lancer unit is another lancer. BTW, lets test it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]btw. I feel the urge to give credit for that set-up to CBR, I think he first used it. Quite a nasty suprise when I first encountered it .

Hehehe, yes. Paolai probably won't be using all-cavalry, though, so I'm gonna modify the setup a bit and aim for a 4-lancer, 4-santiago, 3-pav and 5-melee army with my first attempt. I've also got an entirely new bag of tricks against a cav-superior army, I'd like to try it against you (Glor) first to see if it is feasible.

Edit: woo hoo, 200th post and I got a new face http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[ShadesPanther]

I think i have a replay of the lancers getting me when in fact i was slightly beating his infantry along came the lancers after eating up me cav with freshly squeezed orange juice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif I will email it too you if you want. I was Byz on that occasion and I was so annoyed I became Turk for a while (usually its about 50-50 chances of being Byz or Turk although im doing quite well with some catholic factions)

The thing with the Lancers is that They do move too quickly for anti cav to catch up so they ambush them with a unit and then charge from behind effectively wiping out your anti cav defence (this is wih the really good ones)


And i have stopped a few units of Cav with pavs but they need to be depleted and tired enough for them to run.

And Mith the byzSpanishvs Russia win wasnt really all that fair.
1. 8pavs (or 6 I dunno) Vs 2pavs : so you depleted my whole army beforehand
2. My ally was all cav making a big Army but really My infantry were quite weak
3. Your allys VG really saved you at the end
So really it wasnt that great a victory http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Crandaeolon]

I saw that replay too and I agree, it doesn't give much boasting rights... sorry Mith http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif Go play some duels with weakish factions (Almos, Egyptians, Russians) against the Spanish, then ya can get some kudos if you consistently win a good player. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

There's another thing in favour of the Lancers (and cavalry in general) in these so-called "fair" steppe duels... the thing is, they ain't fair at all. Cavalry rule the steppes, no question about that. Steppes are all about maneuvering and speed, and what do horsemen do best? No points for the right answer. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

When infantry wins a slugout versus another infantry, they probably have been fighting a long time and even the "winners" are depleted and tired. Cavalry usually either win or lose quickly and (perhaps it's just me) they don't tire as fast. Later in the game the charge bonus and special morale penalties of cavalry allow them to easily rout depleted infantry. In the current game system, infantry simply doesn't matter as much in the late game if there are cavalry around.


Quote[/b] ]And i have stopped a few units of Cav with pavs but they need to be depleted and tired enough for them to run.
In the current TW engine, the killing power of missile units is all that matters. It doesn't matter much if a charging cavalry unit of 40 lose 10 from the front and middle of the formation when a volley of bolts hit them; they just ride past and through the corpses and keep charging with no danger of stumbling and no need to slow down. The only chance to "stop" a charge is if the cav rout because of morale penalties from missile fire, losing men and close proximity of enemy units.

[baz]

well this has turned out to be quite a good read, i am kinda agreeing with paolai here and i feel that having spain over other christian factions is a big advantage, and this becomes even greater when against muslims etc ... i appreciate that spain are not invincible but in the hands of a good player become extremely strong ..

i find the biggest mistake by players vs spain is that they still fight the lancers with cav, for me this is the worst thing you can do A v0 lancer will beat a v1 chiv knight easily and most of the time gain valour doing it, then you have one less unit disadvantage and even if the lancer goes onto to hit the back of any other unit (even spears) it will rout it ..

therefore i come to the conclusion that in order to give you a chance of victory you need to match the lancers with anti cav units straight away, in order for you to do this you will have to out manouvre the lancers with slower units, which surely can only be done by the better generals

hence, only a better general can beat spain ..

However, this is only purely how i see this logically and i realise that theory is very different to reality, i wait to see if the gap becomes larger or smaller .. good luck Crand, good luck Mith, and good luck Paolai .. i eagerly anticipate your findings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Is the spanish set up we are talking about a 4 lancers / 4 whatever heavy cav / 4 pavarb / 4 sword?

If one's anticav get 'swamped' by ennemy infantry (4swords???), there is a matchup problem. Swamped by 4 swords? Where do you put your anticav? On 1st rank? I would like to see the replay.

A few units require special attention... Lancers are one of those.

Yes they are faster than their counterpart. That means one needs to pin them first with some cav (bounded to lose) and very quickly comes with some anti cav.
I disagree baz... You need to send cav to the lancers, not the worst thing you can do... They have no hope to win, they just hold the lancer in place, waiting for a nasty JHI/ billmen/ swiss hall to come for the kill.
CFK/GFK/halb are too slow for that; likelyhood of your cav being defeated before the anticav coming is too high.

Sending cav at Lancers without antic cav following is the worst thing you can do.

Louis,

[ErikJansen]

This isnt anything new me figures, but when Turk and you see a Lancer charge bearing down whatever flank or centre try manuevering fast cav (Alan v3) to pin and disrupt (avoid frontal charges) while the highly mobile JHI move in to mop up. Its a simple recipe I've used plenty of times. Works lovely too.

BTW how went those tests? I'm pretty curious.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Erik,

I don't claim it is anything new or difficult

But I don't understand two points regarding;
- anti cav being swamped by inf (can't handle 4 swords?)
- lancers going too fast (pin them down and kill them)
Because, like you Erik, I think it is 'a simple recipe'

Maybe the replay would help me to see the light.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Louis,

[Magyar Khan]

well try me as well please


the problem with the current systems are known, and the thin long lines on the flanks lower the possibility to make manouvring important.

in all my competitive battles so far the armies and units converge to teh same army, setup and gamedevelopment.

[Magyar Khan]

btw almost all these people with nice tactics to counter it are limited players who forget one important thing which is that a skilled enemy know what to avoid and to strike where. dont let yourself get influenced by the numerous noobs online that give u the impression that u know it all.

[t1master]

i'd say it should be all about having fun with everybody in the game, being a gracious victor, and maintaining some sense of dignity in defeat. that way, folks will want to play again with ya, win or lose. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[youssof_Toda]

I only play for fun. Most fun battles are those in which you know what is sort of style that battle will be like and in which both players have equal chances to win. A good reason for a vet to take an inferior army against a n00b: It gives both players a challenge.

[ErikJansen]

Quote[/b] (youssof_Toda @ May 01 2003,06:00)]I only play for fun. Most fun battles are those in which you know what is sort of style that battle will be like and in which both players have equal chances to win. A good reason for a vet to take an inferior army against a n00b: It gives both players a challenge.
Nicely put Youssof http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

This is the reason I love playing turks, fooling around with Hashishin, thunder bombing with Naptha, picking armies with fast cav/HA's only...

One does NOT have to pick the ultimate cost effective army every single time, which seems to be the general idea of some posters in the Spanish monster thread I so foolishly started up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Edit: Changed most with some http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif