Khan7
10-13-2001, 03:00
Take a minute if you will to think on this idea (at this point only dealing with Campaign Game)--
Have a certain default level of weapons and armor to start with, for each unit.
Then when you build a unit, regardless of what facilities you have in terms of "Armouries" and "Swordsmiths", you have the option of buying a certain quality of weapons for them. If this concept were to be taken to a pure and comprehensive extreme, you would start out with a naked Samurai or Ashigaru and add weapons/armor/horse as you saw fit. Of course this would be a bit involved for the current engine, and too much flexibility starts to get tedious as well as unrealistic..
But anyway, you decide whether you want, for instance, your Heavy Cavalry dudes to just have the armor and swords they bring for themselves, or maybe you want to buy them all better armor, or give them better swords or lances.. you know, stuff along those lines. Then based on how much you wanted to spruce them up, you would pay extra for the upgrades.
Swordsmiths and Armouries would come in thus--
If you have no Swordsmiths or Armouries, upgrades would be *quite* costly.
If you have a Swordsmith or Armoury (whichever is in question) somewhere in your domain, the cost of buying the upgrades would be considerably reduced.
If you have a Swordsmith or Armoury (whichever is in question) in the same province where you are assembling the unit, then the cost is lowest (but it still costs extra!!).
An extension of this system could be incorporated to take into account the quality of the Swordsmith/Armoury you're dealing with, in basically the same manner.
.
Now, what you're about to hear next is a much more radical idea..
Make it so that if you have a castle in a province, you can assemble a unit there, of any type, with no other buildings! The catch is, of course, that doing it this way would be *MUCH* more expensive, and in the case of certain unit types could reduce the starting troop quality.
And of course higher quality dojos in which to train your troops would still be the preferred way in which to get the boost in starting honor.
.
A correlating idea to all of this would be to perhaps have different troop types have different specific effects from weapons and armor upgrades.. without going into detail, I hope you can see what I'm talking about.. for instance, an Ashigaru with a blunt stick and no armour has an EXPONENTIALLY greater potential for improvement than does a mounted samurai who has already acquired for himself the basic necessities.
.
One more thing that might be addressed-- the model for force support. Perhaps consider it this way--
Supporting a unit in a territory with a castle will cost a standard amount, as long as the castle's capacity is not exceeded. As in, the first 4 units in a territory with a small castle would recieve a support cost bonus, but any beyond that would count as being in a friendly territory with no castle.
Units in a friendly territory without a castle would have a significantly increased support cost.
Units in a friendly territory with less than 100% loyalty will have even greater support cost.
Sending units on a military campaign costs even *more*. Added to this, the support cost for these units for that season would be the highest possible. The support cost could be mitigated, though, if they are successful and are able to plunder some supplies from the province they have taken.
Units that are besieging an enemy castle in a territory with 100% or greater loyalty would have the same support cost rate as units in a friendly territory with less than 100% loyalty. Support for units besieging an enemy castle in a territory with *less* than 100% loyalty would have the same rate as if they had just attacked the province, without the possibility of getting a kick from plunder.
.
Yet another possible idea-- allow a spear dojo to pump out 2 honor 0 Ashigaru units per turn (both full cost). Add an option (extra training), to put out 1 honor 1 Ashigaru.
.
Now one might think that all these new rules about support would stagnate the game, no matter how realistic they might be. But I would disagree with that. What all of the OTHER things I suggested would do is make it easier to get a balanced force earlier in the game, and to rapidly recruit massive numbers of Ashigaru if you can buy them all.
So perhaps conquering would be harder in the beginning, but once you started "teching up", things would get less expensive, and you would start to consolidate and get better income. Then you can field and support larger and larger armies, AND you will get more of an advantage from conquering a territory and getting more income (due to the same support rules that would otherwise 'stagnate' the game).
Also unity and infrastructure become much more important, making it perhaps easier to go after the Ronin states, but making an organized major clan a hard target in the beginning. But once people get their infrastructure and income built up, the stage is set for cataclysmic confrontations and swifter campaigns.. I believe this is the way it went in the actual Sengoku Jidai?
.
Also perhaps a system like this would allow build times and costs etc. to be set back down a bit, if people wanted to do this.. because having access to troop types would no longer be an exlusive function of having the prerequisite dojo.. "teching up" would be more properly called "improving infrastructure"..
.
Anyway, I would be interested to hear what people think about all of this..
Matt
//P.S.: Add another condition to force support..
If there is a direct, friendly land route from the capital province to the province in question, force support costs normal (an advanced form of this would take into account distance form the capital and proximity to other castles, but this may be a bit much to do all at once!).
If there is a sea route, support costs more.
If there is a land route through neutral territory, support costs more.
A land route through allied territory is the same as if it were your own.
You cannot support units through the territory of a clan that is at war with you!!
If your troops are cut off, they will act as if they are under siege and slowly die off, though they will be in better shape as they will still have access to (limited) plunder from the surrounding area. You could work something out like a lone cut-off territory has a capacity to provide some plunder for 1 unit per season, two adjacent cut off territories might be in better shape.. perhaps work out a special rule for if there happens to be a castle and some infrastructure in the cut off territory(s).
And of course make the cost of launching an attack in the winter much greater!
Annnyways..//
[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 10-12-2001).]
Have a certain default level of weapons and armor to start with, for each unit.
Then when you build a unit, regardless of what facilities you have in terms of "Armouries" and "Swordsmiths", you have the option of buying a certain quality of weapons for them. If this concept were to be taken to a pure and comprehensive extreme, you would start out with a naked Samurai or Ashigaru and add weapons/armor/horse as you saw fit. Of course this would be a bit involved for the current engine, and too much flexibility starts to get tedious as well as unrealistic..
But anyway, you decide whether you want, for instance, your Heavy Cavalry dudes to just have the armor and swords they bring for themselves, or maybe you want to buy them all better armor, or give them better swords or lances.. you know, stuff along those lines. Then based on how much you wanted to spruce them up, you would pay extra for the upgrades.
Swordsmiths and Armouries would come in thus--
If you have no Swordsmiths or Armouries, upgrades would be *quite* costly.
If you have a Swordsmith or Armoury (whichever is in question) somewhere in your domain, the cost of buying the upgrades would be considerably reduced.
If you have a Swordsmith or Armoury (whichever is in question) in the same province where you are assembling the unit, then the cost is lowest (but it still costs extra!!).
An extension of this system could be incorporated to take into account the quality of the Swordsmith/Armoury you're dealing with, in basically the same manner.
.
Now, what you're about to hear next is a much more radical idea..
Make it so that if you have a castle in a province, you can assemble a unit there, of any type, with no other buildings! The catch is, of course, that doing it this way would be *MUCH* more expensive, and in the case of certain unit types could reduce the starting troop quality.
And of course higher quality dojos in which to train your troops would still be the preferred way in which to get the boost in starting honor.
.
A correlating idea to all of this would be to perhaps have different troop types have different specific effects from weapons and armor upgrades.. without going into detail, I hope you can see what I'm talking about.. for instance, an Ashigaru with a blunt stick and no armour has an EXPONENTIALLY greater potential for improvement than does a mounted samurai who has already acquired for himself the basic necessities.
.
One more thing that might be addressed-- the model for force support. Perhaps consider it this way--
Supporting a unit in a territory with a castle will cost a standard amount, as long as the castle's capacity is not exceeded. As in, the first 4 units in a territory with a small castle would recieve a support cost bonus, but any beyond that would count as being in a friendly territory with no castle.
Units in a friendly territory without a castle would have a significantly increased support cost.
Units in a friendly territory with less than 100% loyalty will have even greater support cost.
Sending units on a military campaign costs even *more*. Added to this, the support cost for these units for that season would be the highest possible. The support cost could be mitigated, though, if they are successful and are able to plunder some supplies from the province they have taken.
Units that are besieging an enemy castle in a territory with 100% or greater loyalty would have the same support cost rate as units in a friendly territory with less than 100% loyalty. Support for units besieging an enemy castle in a territory with *less* than 100% loyalty would have the same rate as if they had just attacked the province, without the possibility of getting a kick from plunder.
.
Yet another possible idea-- allow a spear dojo to pump out 2 honor 0 Ashigaru units per turn (both full cost). Add an option (extra training), to put out 1 honor 1 Ashigaru.
.
Now one might think that all these new rules about support would stagnate the game, no matter how realistic they might be. But I would disagree with that. What all of the OTHER things I suggested would do is make it easier to get a balanced force earlier in the game, and to rapidly recruit massive numbers of Ashigaru if you can buy them all.
So perhaps conquering would be harder in the beginning, but once you started "teching up", things would get less expensive, and you would start to consolidate and get better income. Then you can field and support larger and larger armies, AND you will get more of an advantage from conquering a territory and getting more income (due to the same support rules that would otherwise 'stagnate' the game).
Also unity and infrastructure become much more important, making it perhaps easier to go after the Ronin states, but making an organized major clan a hard target in the beginning. But once people get their infrastructure and income built up, the stage is set for cataclysmic confrontations and swifter campaigns.. I believe this is the way it went in the actual Sengoku Jidai?
.
Also perhaps a system like this would allow build times and costs etc. to be set back down a bit, if people wanted to do this.. because having access to troop types would no longer be an exlusive function of having the prerequisite dojo.. "teching up" would be more properly called "improving infrastructure"..
.
Anyway, I would be interested to hear what people think about all of this..
Matt
//P.S.: Add another condition to force support..
If there is a direct, friendly land route from the capital province to the province in question, force support costs normal (an advanced form of this would take into account distance form the capital and proximity to other castles, but this may be a bit much to do all at once!).
If there is a sea route, support costs more.
If there is a land route through neutral territory, support costs more.
A land route through allied territory is the same as if it were your own.
You cannot support units through the territory of a clan that is at war with you!!
If your troops are cut off, they will act as if they are under siege and slowly die off, though they will be in better shape as they will still have access to (limited) plunder from the surrounding area. You could work something out like a lone cut-off territory has a capacity to provide some plunder for 1 unit per season, two adjacent cut off territories might be in better shape.. perhaps work out a special rule for if there happens to be a castle and some infrastructure in the cut off territory(s).
And of course make the cost of launching an attack in the winter much greater!
Annnyways..//
[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 10-12-2001).]