AI gangups?

[kraaze]

I was wondering if everyone else is seeing this is in their campaigns, it's happened to me twice now and it's bizarre. What I've noticed is that the AI factions seem to very quickly fall into heavy alliances and total peace with other leaving the poor human as the only faction involved in any wars map-wide.

I tried the Turks (Early, Normal) and after a bloody two-front war against the Byzatines/Egyptians I prevailed and annexed their terriroties. I decided to hang back at this point, build up my forces for the inevitable crusades, and generally let the AI factions fight each other for awhile. The irritating thing is, they wouldn't! The Spanish were busy throwing "We love the Almohad" parties, the Almohads were hosting parties for their good buddies the papal states, and the french and english were taking german lessons in the corner of the map! Then the crusades began. I finally took the 2/3 conquest victory in the 1350's and in all 250 years of the game, no AI faction had fought another AI faction, excepting the inevitable golden horde against novogrod war.

I'm now doing a campaign as the English (early, hard) and it looks like the same thing is happening again. I wiped the french out, got recommunicated, and started picking on the Spanish. I would have them beat by now, but their bosom buddies the almohads keep intervening on their behalf!

Am I just having fluky luck, or does this sort of thing happen often? It bugs me to see something as historically improbable as the Spanish and Almohads teaming up. Maybe the AI needs a bit of a history lesson in who historically hated who?

[spmetla]

I too want the AI to naturally prefer certain factions but they don't. Try launch a campaign against france as the HRE, I swear all you need to do is think about it and the Danes, Polish, Hungarians, Italians, and British come to their aid.

I am slightly exagerating but this happens to a certain extent when I play Hard and Expert.

[ltj]

a little, yeah, but that may be to make the game harder/longer.

in the first game that i've played more than 250 turns (the others were stupid..) everyone pretty much beats up on everyone else. the egyptians took out the turks, byz, spanish took out elmos, is helping take out egypt, germany and i helped take out egypt, the russians did nothing for a long time until surprise attacking me (they got wiped off the map for that one)..

right now the germans are fighting me (buggers keep port raiding - i'll take their province, they'll jump behind my lines to a low defense port, and run away when i try to catch up to them >:|), the elmos & italians are clinging to their three provinces (total) and spain is biding its time until i destroy germany (at which time it will destroy me - holds all of the south territories, most of spain, most of old byzantine, and im going broke by the turn...

fun :-D

[Oda Matsu]

From my experience, the worst offence that the human player can make to a computer faction is to share a border with them. As the game progresses, I find it virtually impossible to maintain friendly relations with adjacent countries, moreso if they have no place to expand. I've noticed, however, that nations separated from mine completely are quite cordial, and even enthusiastically offer alliances to me if embroiled in their own fracas (and aren't allied with any of my current enemies).

The other point is "once an enemy, always an enemy" - unless, once you wipe same off the map, they respawn somewhere else (ie, not in your backyard, and you don't share a border with them), in which case all is forgiven.

Effective diplomacy is tricky, but taking the above into account (and the reluctance of nations to ally with nations at war with their allies), you can make for effective (albeit temporary) alliance pacts.

Oh yeah. The Pope is nuts. It's easier to kill the bugger off than to squeeze a kind word out of him. That's what you get for having English Protestants writing the code -'nuff said. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Enigma]

I have played two campaigns as the English one on Normal and one on Expert. In both the Spanish and the Elmos have been in massive wars. In the Normal Campaign the Elmos won, in my expert campaign the Spanish won. In my current campaign (Expert) The Sicilians have conquered Italy. The HRE is losing to the Polish. Byzantine has lost Constantinople, and the Turks have been eliminated by the Eqyptians. My one true ally through all has been the HRE, they even intervened in my war against France (now a part of my empire). It is 1181 in my current campaign and I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the Golden Horde in 60 years or so and rushing to finish my Crusades before 1205. I am at war with the Spanish (now just in Tunisia), the Egyptians, and the Byzantines.

[DaCount]

Ha i still have to see a game where the english/french don't bash eachothers head ! (and no i've never played any of them).

Also it depends ai doesn't gang up on you that much unless you have something like 1/2 of the map, ofcourse then they need to gang up against you or be crushed, normal reaction, i would do so too.

Regarding shared borders, my current game i play spain, and from the start i allied with french, they remained my trusted ally for almost the whole game (playing Glorious Achievements here), key in preventing war with a neighbor is to make a clear signal to them. That signal in medievel times is rather simple also, just make sure you have a larger army then his, which is the same like if you try to kick my but, i will anihilate yours......, although that trick won't work if you play some factions like England/France which seem to be arch enemies, and i'm sure there are other such combos..

[oZoNeLaYeR]

pffftt, i got ganged up from 4 factions... they use crusades too.. w00t
HRE, France, Spain and Italy... errmmmm sccchwwweeettt

[Vanya]

GAH!

That is because youz are a bunch of warmongering barbarians!

GAH!

Vanya, in His infinte wisdom, pursued a policy of peace as the Italians. Vanya never attacked His neigbors. He neglected His armed forces for the 1st 50 years. He spent that time teching up.

The other factions went at each other in brutal fashion. The French, English, Germans and Spanish all plunged themselves into an orgy of killing amongst themselves while Vanya's Italians watched from their front-row seats.

Vanya did expand the empire after that by means of subterfuge. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Eventually England got the upper hand by seizing all of France's French holdings, with Vanya grabbing a few when the Pope called for Crusades againt the French (including the sweet Ile de France and Burgundy). Soon, England was in Spain and stretched all the way to Flanders! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

Vanya tinks... dis nice! England hold Elmos back! Vanya pursue uber units! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

GAH!

WRONG!

Elmo reared his ugly head and totally whipped the English back to their island! Now, Vanya tinks... EH-OH! Gotsta spank Elmo!

So commences the hostilities. Vanya waltzes into Aragon after seizing Tolouse via subterfuge, making Aragon the outbreak of hostilities. Aragon surrenders without a fight. Then Vanya sees IT. The Horde! GAH! About 30 Elmo armies sitting in Valencia! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

GAH!

Vanya defends Aragon against a fierce counterattack! The river and the bridge keep Vanya's meager forces alive. Good thing Vanya had teched up too... as He fielded vast numbers of swiss pike and halberdiers against the Elmo bastids. Shish-ka-bob anybody?

Soon, Elmo France was singing 'O Sole Mio' and eating pizza and garlic cibatta bread!

And the Egyptians? How on earth did Vanya keep them from waltzing into Venice? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif Especially when they had the 'largest' armies, were rampaging through the balkans, had the Hungarians praying to Buddha for mercy, with the Veneto only fielding a whopping 2 units for defense inside its fat castle? Vanya sent Chevy Chase and Dan Akroyd into Serbia to stir things up! Thats how! 50 years of non-stop civil disorder have stopped the funny walkers cold. Hungary regrouped. Germany took back what they lost. Venice was never in danger, especially after Croatia was retaken by the Hungarians after losing it for a whole 1 turn.

So... whats the lesson here? If you outright go down the path of war, you will find yourself facing the world. Don't give them a chance to gang up on youz; attack when your foes are at each other's throats. You must choose the path of non-violence. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

GAH!


[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 09-16-2002).]

[Soapyfrog]

The computer seems to take umbrage to large and expanding human players.

As the Danes (on Expert) I have just completed my conquest of England, and no other factions have come to their aid, and in fact several have gone out of their way to ally with me (the Poles sent me one of their daughters, even... that's rare!).

I am allied with France, Hungary, Poland, Almohads, and Novgorod.

Since the HRE just got excommunicated, I think everyone is much more worried about them than me!

[dancho]

You can't just sit back and wait for the Horde to arrive... BUT-- long periods of peace are very important for trading. You need to build a fleet and trade as much as possible to build up your treasury for the 'lean years' that come when war breaks out.

If you have a proper trading system set up, then a period of peace means a large quantity of cash will be rolling in. This will give you access to the latest and greatest weaponry and allow you to upgrade your armies.

When war occurs, you start to burn through your cash. Once you run out of money, it's time to sit down and negotiate a settlement. I am just beginning to discover how really good this game is at simulating this type of economic planning. It's great.

[Mu]

Once you start conquering AI factions will gang up on you. Its supposed to make the game harder and avoid the IWS (inevitable winner syndrome)

As nearly any catholic faction (especially the danes) i can conquer the British Isles, and most of continental europe (about 50% of the map) by about 1115 or so. So i hardly am allied with any faction at all before the ganging up starts.

[Soapyfrog]

Really? Wow... on expert? I can see how that's possible, but it can't be easy, I mean, you are talking about 50% of the map in 20-30 turns.

I thought about expanding into HRE first, but I figured I would be risking annihilation, so I teched up, got longboats, and went against England after subjugating Sweden and Norway.

Now HRE is excommunicated and politically isolated, I am allied with all it's neighbours, should be child's play to take them apart.

Seems like a better strategy then what you suggest... I find the super-rapid expansion to be a bad idea, and I'd love to know how you make it work...

[Cheetah]

PAF

[Shiro]

TO PAF.

------------------
"Everything Shiro said sounds good to me."
-Solypsist