looking for an explanation on a mass rebellion

[Azmogeddon]

Situation is playing as the English on Normal difficulty, conquered Iberia about 80-100 turns ago, gone on to take the Western half of North Africa, reducing the Almohads to one province (yet still supporting 5 full stacks, grr). In Europe I have most of Germany and up around Scandinavia. Haven't done much expansion for 50 turns or so, picked up a few german provinces and concentrated on teching up, and waiting for my ex-communication to run out for some crusades.

Suddenly, out of the blue in a single turn, every province in Iberia has a peasant revolt. They have been on a mix of High and Very High taxes for the last 50 turns, but all consistently 180-200% loyalty and garrisons of 200-400 men. All the provinces have long since been converted to 90%+ Catholic. There were no faction uprisings or anything, just these peasant revolts.

These rebellions total over 10000 men, I'd be very interested in knowing what has caused it!

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Azmo
[long-time lurker]

[Dionysus9]

Quote Originally posted by Azmogeddon:
. . . They have been on a mix of High and Very High taxes for the last 50 turns . . .

These rebellions total over 10000 men, I'd be very interested in knowing what has caused it!

[/QUOTE]

Well, If I had been Very Highly Taxed for my entire life expectancy by a foreign invader, I think I'd pickup a pitchfork too.

But really, It seems like the high taxes is doing it to people.

[DarknScaly]

long term high taxation "always" causes a peasant revolt eventually.

It oftne manifests itself immediately after a game event - anything from the death of a king to excommunication to the plague etc... only takes a tiny shift in happiness to cause them if you are using high taxes

especially be wary of using auto-tax

[Azmogeddon]

Thanks, I guess that must be it then... what tax rate is advisable then? Even with just the governer unit as garrison most of my provinces are 200% or near it with Very High taxes, so do I just need to keep them lower despite this?

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Azmo
[long-time lurker]

[DoJo MoJo I]

Quote Originally posted by Dionysus9:
Well, If I had been Very Highly Taxed for my entire life expectancy by a foreign invader, I think I'd pickup a pitchfork too.

But really, It seems like the high taxes is doing it to people.[/QUOTE]


Think your exactly right, in my playing lowering the province Tax rate to low, very low, combined with a strong ( in numbers, peasants will do ) garrison seems to solve the problem somewhat.

[Phaedron]

Facetiously, it's clearly the end result of a long term plot by the Pope working in concert with the beleagered Germans. Aiming to discomfit the excommunicated British heathen currently taxing to death the just and pious Iberian populace, the blessed and church-backed Italian and German provacateurs promised wealth, freedom, and a non-English speaking aristocracy to the general Spanish populace. No doubt aided and abeted by the few remaining Almohadan sympathizers eager to see England suffer a setback.

Or maybe your Monarch just set the tax on tea too high.

(I know - wrong era. But I still like the idea. "No taxation without representacion!")

[Azmogeddon]

A very intricate and elaborate plot indeed, however all in vain as my standing army is something in the region of 20 full stacks. Hence the high taxes. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

Edit: None of them more than 3-5 moves from reaching Iberia. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Azmo
[long-time lurker]

[This message has been edited by Azmogeddon (edited 09-05-2002).]

[DarknScaly]

reduce your garrisons by using spies azmo:

I only ever keep 120 men as garrison units (2 x highlander or gallwos as english faction) - they can keep a province >120% loyalty even on high tax if you have spies in there (though i rarely ever go ovver normal tax anyway). Spies take no upkeep costs... and that releases your, 200-400 men to go fight on the frontline.

[andrewt]

I use peasants mainly although clansmen and gallows are better. Also, if your king is besieging a province, the game considers him out of touch with the rest of your provinces.

[This message has been edited by andrewt (edited 09-06-2002).]

[Papewaio]

Quote Originally posted by andrewt:
if your king is besieging a province, the game considers him out of touch with the rest of your provinces.
[/QUOTE]

Do you mean in or outside of the castle?

[ToranagaSama]

IMHO,

You didn't maintain 200 Loyalty for a long enough number of turns.

In my experience, if you do this, for the correct number of turns, then a garrison of 200-400 s/h been enough to maintain 200 indefinitely on Normal (or whatever its called-the standard) taxes. If you go to Very High taxes then you must adjust your garrison accordingly. (It appears you may have failed to do so.

Just a note, I "believe" that anytime Loyalty "fluctuates" from 200, then the "counter" (?) is reset. For instance, if it takes 10 turns at 200 Loyalty in order for 200 to be maintain with a minimum garrison, then if you miss just 1 (of the consecutive) turn(s) at 200 (say 180) then the "counter" is probably resent and you now need to make another attempt to get 10 (consecutive) turns at 200.

I believe the number of turns is variable and relative to each province. There's probably some forumla in the code with each province having differenct values.

I think this is a good and logical explanation as to why EVERY Iberian province rebelled!

[Just a note, most of the experimentation I've done has been on Normal difficulty. Logically, I presume that the above relative numbers will need to be increased (troops and turns) to an undetermined degree.]

[Azmogeddon]

Thanks for all the help, but I'm not sure that's the problem here... all my provinces *were* at near 200% loyalty with just the governer as garrison.

My King had just attacked an enemy province that turn, though I don't think there was a siege. The previous turn a similar thing had happened around Scandinavia, accompanied by the Danes being reborn, so I guess that's what triggered Iberia to revolt.

I'll try keeping spies in all my provinces, though I'm still fairly early on in the game and have only just started to produce them.

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Azmo
[long-time lurker]

[DrNo]

Why worry about the peasent revolts?

I had 3 provinces do this with about 1400 rebels in each consisting of Spearmen and Peasents in the main with one having a few archers. Just send in your good troops for some easy kills. I think I only lost about 80 troops in these 3 battles. It's great to play defensive battles, especially in Norway. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Also remember to get your King into battle to raise his influence!

I have all my provinces on high tax and only had this one revolt so far on Expert level. It's much better to tax them high get the income and support a bigger army ready to kick any rebellion into touch. And while you're waiting for it, go pillage some enemy provinces and get even more money.

One other thing if your economy isn't great and loyalty an issue is make use of spies in your own provinces, they decrease the likelyhood of revolts, like Shinobi's did in STW with no support costs.

[ToranagaSama]

Quote Originally posted by Azmogeddon:
Thanks for all the help, but I'm not sure that's the problem here... all my provinces *were* at near 200% loyalty with just the governer as garrison.

[/QUOTE]


"Near" 200 isn't good enough, must be "at" 200 for a LONG period of turns.

Gosh, people aren't getting this at all.

Look at it this way, take Afganistan, We (USA) went over and kicked some Taliban butt, in essence "consquered" the place, installed a new government, etc., BUT we're STILL there!! It's approaching a year. If we leave now....REBELLION. There have been a few attempts at assinating their president, one as late as yesterday.

So, you see the US must stay in Afganistan, for an indefinite period unitl things STABILIZE. How long? Who knows!

For another example take Iraq, if we do implement a "regime change". How long will it take to stabilize things? How long will we the troops have to remain? Probably a lot less time than Afganistan. Why? No nutjob extremist Taliban looneys running around. Just your run of the mill, nutjob, Hitler type dictator.

Some of you may be old enough (or learned about it in school) to remember the American "Invaison" of Panama, where the US "removed" the criminal, drug-dealing, dictator-president, Manuel Noriega. Troops in and out in less than two weeks.

MTW, attempts to realistically approximate these types of behaviours/scenarios.

Troops do not leave until Full Stabilization. Full Stabilization is at 200 Loyalty (NOT one point less).

A province must remain STABLE (200 Loyalty) for a period of turns, before SIGNIFICANT numbers of troops can be removed w/o the risk of rebellion.

Just like the real life examples above, the length of stay is different in each province and dependent upon the place and circumstance(s).

At 180 Loyalty, the car bombs start going off!!! At 150 the Intifada (sp?) begins. At 100, you start blowing up women and children in their homes while they sleep. Below 100, time to send in the Army to demolish their homes and towns. Whoops got a little political there. You get the drift!

If you've got a Govenor in your province(s) and your Loyalty is "near" 200 rather than "at" 200. Your in just a little trouble, gotta get Loyalty up to 200. Put a unit in there. After the first turn does Loyalty rise, fall or remain stable at "near" 200? Not 200, put another unit in there, repeat until 200. Keep at 200 for a number of turns.

After awhile, attempt to remove one unit. Immediately, w/o taking a turn you will notice whether Loyalty, falls below or remains "at" 200.

If Loyalty remains at 200, cool you can remove that unit of troops. Repeat with an additional unit. If Loyalty falls, then wait a few more turns and repeat the above.

Gradually, sometimes, rather quickly, you'll find you can remove most and sometimes all troops. It varies from province to province.

No Spies necessary for the above. Have yet to tech up to get spies, busy doing other stuff. Plus troops and spies are COSTLY.

Personally, I prefer to be on the Strat Map, stragizing than on the Battle Map. So, I put a lot of effort into "preventing" the liklihood of Rebellion/Respawning.

[Soapyfrog]

I don't keep my provinces at 200% (they are almost always less) and I NEVER suffer revolts.

The key to never boost your taxation above Normal for more than a few turns, and if you do, drop it to low for a few turns thereafter.

High taxation is like crack... you'll need it more and more and then it'll kill you.

So just tax at normal and only boost taxation in extreme emergencies.

And stop whining about rebellions if you are taxing your people at High or Very High for any length of time! I'd revolt too! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Azmogeddon]

Well I thought that since I was such a great and benevolent ruler my peons would be happy despite the high taxes. Really good welfare system or something.

Oh well.

Maybe not so benevolent, since I'm going for the high taxes + huge army option and just crushing any rebellions that pop up.

My current pet project is sending crusades into Egypt-held Eastern Europe, down through Constantinople to Palestine, just looting and pillaging. Generally a mess of units at about 10% strength by the time they reach their target, but I sent a proper army by sea to take Sinai, so I collect the remnants there.

Great fun. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Azmo
[long-time lurker]

[Vanya]

GAH!

It is a privilege to live under my rule. Those who disagree... are prompty taken for dinner... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

GAH!

[Lahn]

Quote Look at it this way, take Afganistan, We (USA) went over and kicked some Taliban butt,[/QUOTE] You mean the same Taliban you supported in the 80's? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Quote to remember the American "Invaison" of Panama, where the US "removed" the criminal, drug-dealing, dictator-president, Manuel Noriega. [/QUOTE] You mean the same dictator, you installed before? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Quote For another example take Iraq, ... Just your run of the mill, nutjob, Hitler type dictator.[/QUOTE] You mean the same 'Hilter type Dictator' you supplied with weapons in the 80's? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Iced~Metal]

HEHE

[ToranagaSama]

Lahn,

Yup, Yup and Yup!

Its hard to find good help...

[Jagger]

I wonder if one of your AI cutthroat opponents decided to send a bunch of spies to forment revolution in Spain. Spies can remove that 200 percent loyalty quickly if you aren't paying attention.

As the human, I do it all the time to the AI and consistently forment revolts quickly. Perhaps the AI may do it to the human from time to time.

Maybe.

[Oda Matsu]

The Italians are notorious for it. Whenever I have a war with them, suddenly a mass revolt starts up - and keeps starting up every two years - deep in my rear areas. Populating the affected provinces with spies seems to solve the problem, as does beating the Italians down.

Just my experience.

[Azmogeddon]

It does seem to be whenever I send my King into battle I get a bunch of provinces rebelling. Their loyalty drops from 200 to 170-180 and that's enough for mass peasant revolt, often accompanied by a faction respawning. This is on Normal difficulty, so that 120% figure people keep quoting seems to be false.

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Azmo
[long-time lurker]

[Soapyfrog]

AI making clever use of spies to incite revolts?

[Anglocon]

Azmo I think has it nailed. Playing as England last night (Normal, own most of France, Germany)

My king went to invade Norway by sea, at the end of the turn, revolts in Wales, Scotland, Flanders, Saxony, Northumria, Aquatine.

When your king "leaves the country" in effect, to conquer a foreign territory, you lose his own personal influence on territory ratings.

Ah well, a chance to boost my Scant Mercy rating I suppose :-)

[DarknScaly]

Quote Originally posted by Azmogeddon:
It does seem to be whenever I send my King into battle I get a bunch of provinces rebelling. Their loyalty drops from 200 to 170-180 and that's enough for mass peasant revolt, often accompanied by a faction respawning. This is on Normal difficulty, so that 120% figure people keep quoting seems to be false.

[/QUOTE]

The 120% loyalty rating refers ONLY to faction re-emergences in provinces, not to stnadard rebellions etc.

The high taxation is your key problem azmo - guarentee it.

[Kalt]

Quote Originally posted by Lahn:

Look at it this way, take Afganistan, We (USA) went over and kicked some Taliban butt, You mean the same Taliban you supported in the 80's? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Quote to remember the American "Invaison" of Panama, where the US "removed" the criminal, drug-dealing, dictator-president, Manuel Noriega. [/QUOTE] You mean the same dictator, you installed before? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Quote For another example take Iraq, ... Just your run of the mill, nutjob, Hitler type dictator.[/QUOTE] You mean the same 'Hilter type Dictator' you supplied with weapons in the 80's? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]


So what if we supported them because they lied to us and told us they would play nice and stay friendly. Turns out they lied, they stabbed us in the back, and so then we had to go take care of buisness.

Just because the USA supports someone doesn't make them our puppet. We even supported CASTRO and look at what HE DID! Two-bit dictators worldwide KNOW that the United States will give plenty of aid if you promise to promote democratic reform and allow US companies to come in and do buisness, so is it any wonder that dictators try to play the USA and pretend to be our friend only to turn on us and become our enemy later on?

If that doesnt sink in, allow me to make the following analogy: Let's say you vote for a politician because he says he will do alot of things that yu agree with. So you help him get elected. Then, after he is safely in office, he decides to ignore his promises to you and on top of that do the opposite of everything he promised. Then when you protest his policies, I walk up and say "You mean the politician YOU supported?"

You see, simply pointing out that we did support certain people that later became our enemies in no way establishes that we are to blame for their behavior in office. Your statements boil down to little more than:

"HAHA you got stabbed in the back! Dictator X played you! neener neener!"

Why yes, dictator X did play us, which is why we tend to kick dictator X's butt.

[Kalt]

LOL you guys and youre happy little provinces!! This is what I do:

TAX them like the dirty slaves they are. We're talking between 90%-110% on all provinces! And if you have extra troops sitting around, set a particularly rebellious province to VERY HIGH then pull out ALL your troops. When they revolt, send in your army and crush them. Keep building troops to replace your losses and do this over and over and over. Soon your general will gain high rank and sport virtues that add to his rank while defending. On top of that you get paid cash-money for confiscated lands AND you improve the valour of your (surviving) troops!

It sure beats letting your troops sit around on your border in a boring slovenly fashion. And if any OTHER province tries to revolt, now you have a crack army to put it down with.

Taxing oppressively nets you more rebellions, but it also nets you ALOT more money, both in tax revenues and confiscated lands. This revenue will more than pay for your attrition, and eventually your standing armies will be so elite that putting down rebellions will hardly cost you any troops at all.

If you find yourself embroiled in a war with few troops to spare, you can use peasants early in the game to improve happiness, or you could do what I do and pump out massive numbers of spearmen, more than enough to keep one attacking army maxed out, acumen 4+ governors in all my provinces, and a few "extra" armies to entice rebels into the open then crush them.

Taxes = good, dread = good, being nice = bad, happiness/love/freedom/bunnies/baby seals = bad

[Azmogeddon]

This strategy I like!

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Azmo
[long-time lurker]

[Dwimmerlaik]

Quote Originally posted by Kalt:
You see, simply pointing out that we did support certain people that later became our enemies in no way establishes that we are to blame for their behavior in office.
Why yes, dictator X did play us, which is why we tend to kick dictator X's butt.[/QUOTE]

I believe the point is that some of these 'dictators' were less than rosy clean even before US support - it just so happened that they were conveniently placed to serve US interests...what is ironic is that these puppets (what else would you call them especially after the CIA engineers a coup to bring them into power, a la the former Congo) outlast their usefulness and are then 'righteously' condemned for being naughty naughty bois..

[JRock]

Quote Originally posted by Dionysus9:
Well, If I had been Very Highly Taxed for my entire life expectancy by a foreign invader, I think I'd pickup a pitchfork too.

But really, It seems like the high taxes is doing it to people.[/QUOTE]


Then explain the part of his post you conveniently deleted in your quote:

Quote all consistently 180-200% loyalty and garrisons of 200-400 men. All the provinces have long since been converted to 90%+ Catholic. There were no faction uprisings or anything, just these peasant revolts.
[/QUOTE]

It doesn't jive. Sounds like a bug to me, because if loyalty is so high and the areas are well-garrisoned, it's only through incorrect coding that people would revolt. Properly coded, the loyalty would drop first, giving you a way to realize there's a problem and time to correct it.


If a population is 100% loyal to those in power over them, they are not going to rebell at all in any way, shape or form.
If it's above 100% that is fanatic, life-giving loyalty and support for those in charge - they should be willing to die for you.

Perhaps if a proper scale of percentage was used to show loyalty instead of a silly 200% scale, it would make more sense. If 180% REALLY means 90% of the population supports your rule, it would make more sense that 10% of the population is possible to revolt.

It all goes back to illogical Loyalty measurements in the game.
We shouldn't be forced to learn some convoluted Loyalty measure and translate it into common sense - it should start out with a logical measure.

0-100% are percentages of how much or little of the population is likely to revolt. Once over 100%, there should not possibly be a chance of revolt (BECAUSE 100% IS ALL OF THE POPULATION) due to taxation. The other factor of religious breakdown is already measured on a 100% scale, as is logical and appropriate.


[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 09-11-2002).]

[Azmogeddon]

A dev posted in another thread (couldn't be bothered to find it, sorry http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif) about how loyalty can change a lot during the calculations of a single turn. So even if your province is at 180% loyalty when you hit End Year, factors such as nearby rebellions, military defeats, distance to your King increasing, enemy spies, etc etc can bring it down enough for a rebellion.

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Azmo
[long-time lurker]

[ToranagaSama]

Kalt,

Quote
So what if we supported them because they lied to us and told us they would play nice and stay friendly. Turns out they lied, they stabbed us in the back, and so then we had to go take care of buisness.
[/QUOTE]

So, ahhhh, I guess the fact that we lied to *them* and said *we* "...would play nice and stay friendly....", that's not to be accounted??

Quote
Just because the USA supports someone doesn't make them our puppet.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm....one would wonder how you define "support"???

Quote
We even supported CASTRO and look at what HE DID!
[/QUOTE]

Gotta ask, how old are you? If you not an adult then this is somewhat execusable, but if you are....

Dude, you gotta stop believing what they tell ya, and do the homework for yourself. Otherwise, you'll forever be gullible.

First, to my recollection of the facts, WE never supported Castro. Why would we have with Batista sitting there?

Second, what exactly did he DO??? [Do you know any of the facts, son? Do you study history at all? Do you just believe what they tell ya, or what you see on the Evening "World" news?

Fact, [forgive me I don't recall precise figures] The illiteracy rate in Cuba at the time of the revolution, was near 90%; Healthcare, in any form, for the overwhelming majority of the people was---Non-existant; The majority of the land, something on the order of, 80-90% was owned by U.S. interests. Read here---> Dulles.

Dulles as in "Dulles Airport", Dulles as in one U.S.'s most richest and most influential families. Dulles as in John Foster Dulles, and his brother (sorry forget his name). Who were they you say?

Ahhhh.....Secretary of State AND Head of the CIA!!! Respectively THAT'S who. Hmmmm....is something starting to smell a bit fishy??? Well, let me tell ya, just how bad the stink is.

Dulles, read U.S. Brands, read Chiquita Bananas.....oh...ah...sorry...I...ah...am getting a little off track cause that's NICIARGRA (sp?)!!!!

Same Dulles though,...Back to Cuba...remember that 80-90% U.S. owned land?? It's them!! The Dulles' and their interests. They OWNED it! 80% of Cuba!! Do you have ANY idea what that means in an Agricultural based economy??? Doesn't really matter, I do believe you'll get this:

Leaving most all the dirt under the carpet, simply comprehend these factors, we have the Secretary of State, Chief of the Central Intelligence Agency

[at a time PRIOR to Congress enacting laws providing "checks and balances" for the CIA's actions].

with a 'Personal Economic' interest in a GeoPolitical event that very nearly lead to the first nuclear exchange and a third world war as neatly dipicted in the movie 28 days.

Speaking of that movie, do you remember that part in it, where the JFK, RFK and the Kevin Costner character were speaking outside the Oval Office. Remember, the talk about why took on the task of running for the White House.

One of the characters (forget which) states, "We did it, because we knew we could do it (run the country) better than *they* could." Note, its NEVER referenced anywhere in the movie who the *they* are or were.

So you've got to wonder who or what the heck did they mean by the statement. Guess who the *they* were? That's right, the Dulles boys (and their click)! The funny thing is that scene simply dipicted one "Preppy" click critiqing another "Preppy" click.

So what did Castro do?? Exactly?? The Revolution gave the Cuba virtually 100% literacy, full and FREE healthcare, and removed the land from "Monopolistic" interests; and while the Cuban people are still very poor, they don't live under the grinding proverty of the Bastista and prior Regimes.

Lastly, I'll just touch upon, since you seem to believe that the U.S. "supported" Castro at some point. Presuming this to be true, then one must also assume that at the time of the revolution, Castro must NOT have been a Communist.

So the last definitive question must be WTF happened??? Well this post is long enough and off-topic to just leave the question to you. HINT: What do bad preppy boys do when they get pissed??

Yo, the whole moral of this diatribe, is that you gotta stop believing what's told to you, start asking questions; and in light of the WTC even---why the heck do they all hate U.S.--THAT much???


Quote
Two-bit dictators worldwide KNOW that the United States will give plenty of aid if you promise to promote democratic reform and allow US companies to come in and do buisness, so is it any wonder that dictators try to play the USA and pretend to be our friend only to turn on us and become our enemy later on?
[/QUOTE]

Are you serious??? That's like going up to a homeless person, who hates you and believes your responsible for his homelessness, and saying here's some food, here's some money---be my friend. Now, he may not be homeless, but now he's dependent upon you. What choices does he have? Make you happy or starve---Guess he's your puppet now.

I deleted all the stuff after the above, but what's outstanding in what you say, is that "Support" needs to be defined; and the question is we "supported" them to what end? What purpose?

[JRock]

Blah blah blah blah, can we please keep this forum about MTW please? Thanks.

[Cheetah]

PAF

[Shiro]

TO PAF.