Billmen to powerful

[Nick Marcus]

With a high defense and high attack, even increased when fighting against horsies AND anti armour. These guys are just way to powerful for their low low cost.(300 something). These babies can take on anything. Maybe their are some real baddas infantry out there who can beat them, but the AI is to dumb to care. Just create the entire british army with longbowmen and billmen and expert becomes a walk in the park. For gameplay reasons, these guys MUST be tweaked. Preferably in a higher technology tree (just like longbowmen should).

[Action]

Billmen are not overpowered. They might be underpowered.

Valor 3 Feudal Men at Arms slaughter valor 2 Billmen, and the men at arms are 100 florins cheaper.

Valor 1 Order Foot beat valor 2 Billmen and the Order foot are like 150 florins cheaper.

[Nick Marcus]

Just tested it and your right. But upping the valour of the opponent to prove they are better is a bit pointless. And order knights are a bit to rare to be considered a true tread.

Maybe my claim that their are not many infantry units better than billmen was a bit bold, but there are no cavalry that i know of that stand a chance against them, wich can not be said of those 'better' troops.

Argue all you want, point is, if taken out in the field, used by a human player against the ai, they will win, and will win big. For the English, they are a super unit wich makes the orther infantry useless, don't forget to build them in their home provence and you get a neato valour bonus. like they need one !

[Action]

Well in multiplayer, the units I tested it against are just about the most common units encountered. You see order foot and high valor feudal men at arms constantly. (since you can just buy valor)

In single player, things are obviously different.

[Jo_Beare]

Everytime mine see an Almohad Urban Militia http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif unit, they run screaming like a bunch of girls leaving my generals trying to fight off hundreds of Almohads single handidly. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif

JoBeare

[Nick Marcus]

I can see your point but this tread (like all my treads) is SP related. From what i have read in other treads, the things you mention in MP are in fact big problems that should be fixed to let other units also shine.

Had no problem with the almohad urban militia. The almohad didn't bother with them (past tense, get it ?).

[Rocket_Boy]

An army entirely consisting of foot troops ie. billmen and longbows, are very solid but vs an enemy consisting of many missile units who skirmish its a real pisser, plus you'll take very few prisoners, that enemy general and his foot unit flee, chances are that unless they're surrounded they're gettin away, even a simple unit of hobilars though and they're in trouble.

You an argue that a unit is overpowered but without the right backup it is (in the words of Sick Boy) basically shite.

[Stu35]

bah! my mighty horse archers can wipe the floor with your puny billmen... a couple units of horsemen will take your billmen down ready for my mighty Highland Charge,

pah! i spit on your Englishmen http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
Stu35s MTW Site - Hints,Lists,Facts,And Porn (http://www.angelfire.com/games4/mtw) (one of those is a lie)

http://www.geocities.com/wolflord_uk/stu35

Alba Gu Bragh

[todorp]

Initially I had a billman, longbows and hobilars strategy. That was before I met the Almohad Urban Militia. AUM whipped the floor with my +1 valour silver shield billmen. What a painful experience.

[Stu35]

my solution to AUM is Horse Archers/Crossbowmen (with my latest Novgorodian campaign, i have become highly partial to Boyars),

Basically it is keep hitting them and running, i couldnt use horse archers very well for skirmishing, but more and more ifound myself using them for the fun of it, and now i am actually quite good at managing multiple units of skirmishing horse archers across the battlefield... I even won a few Multi games spending some of my precious florins on some Horse Archers and some honour.



------------------
Stu35s MTW Site - Hints,Lists,Facts,And Porn (http://www.angelfire.com/games4/mtw) (one of those is a lie)

http://www.geocities.com/wolflord_uk/stu35

Alba Gu Bragh

[ltj]

my billmen get the crapped kicked outta them by pretty much any decent unit that isn't calvary. i don't use them for anything but killing horse units.

[Pachinko]

Ahhh... The Boyers...talk about AWSOME!I mean AWSOME! Put a couple of Pikemen! OR, maybe two companys of Swiss Pikemen! Talk about the 'wipe the floor' http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif :P
P.


P.S. this is a SP...btw

[FacelessClock]

Billmen are certainly not overpowered. The suffer the same problems as any unit without a sheild and without heavy armor - they die very quickly. They are decent when used as a second line combo shock/anti-calv unit, but otherwise they get beat by shock and spear units of compareable price.

[andrewt]

I don't know in multi, but the English has a 25% discount on Billmen price in single. They are a godsend against heirs and kings since they get +3 attack and have armor-piercing. You get more bang for the buck with feudal men at arms against infantry but billmen aren't so bad and they tear through cavalry very easily.

[AgentBif]

Quote Originally posted by FacelessClock:
Billmen are certainly not overpowered. The suffer the same problems as any unit without a sheild and without heavy armor - they die very quickly. [/QUOTE]

Can anyone point to a unit list that indicates which ones have shields? Does a shield provide both melee and missile protection? These shields are an addition to def and armor ratings?

bif

[pdoan8]

Despite of their AP (armour piercing) and AC (anti-cavalry) capability, Billmen often get mowed down by MAA, Feudal Sergeant and good cavalry in a headon clash. Billmen are good for flanking and fight in the wood.

Shield is count as either defense or armour or both. Depend on the weapon type, shield type, mount or foot, armour level, the shield provide up to 2 defense, 3 armour, 1 charge bonus. However, not all units have the same advantage of having shield.


Weapon type which can use shield in melee:

FOOT_BASIC......Sidearm.........................y (Foot missile, siege/cannon)
SWORD...........Skilled Sword...................y (Feu/Chi MAA, ByzInf, Highland Clanmen, JanissInf, TrebiArcher, AUM,...)
SPEAR...........Spear...........................y (peasants, spearmen, Muwahid, Nubian, ...)
PIKE............Pike............................y (pikemen, Spikemen, SAPikemen)
AXE.............Axe or Two handed sword.........n (Urban Militia, Militia Sergeant, Gallowglass, ...)
POLEARM.........Pole arm........................n (Feu/Chi Sergeant, Billmen, Halberdier, ...)
MACE............Mace or 1 handed axe on foot....y (Longbow, Ghazis, ...)
CLUB............Crude club used by zealots......y (Fanatic)
CAV_BASIC.......Mounted troops with sidearm.....y (Turcopole, Berber Camel, ...)
CAV_SWORD.......Skilled swordsman...............y (Mamluk Cav Archer, Turcoman Horse, Byz Cav, ...)
LIGHT_LANCE.....Eastern type....................y (Ghulam Cav, Mongol HC, Hobilar, Alen Merc, ...)
HEAVY_LANCE.....Western Knights.................y (Late Knight, Lancer, ...)
CAV_MACE........Mace or axe used mounted........y (Gothic Knight)

Shield factor (defend, armour, charge bonus)

SMALL (foot)....1 Def...1 Arm...0 Ch.Bonus
LARGE (foot)....2.......2.......1
PAVISE..........0.......3.......0
CAV.............1.......1.......0

Shield factor adjustmanet relate to armour type (how much does it count in real melee)

FOOT_NONE...............1
FOOT_LIGHT..............1
FOOT_MAIL...............1
FOOT_HALF_PLATE.........0.5
FOOT_3Q_PLATE...........0.5
FOOT_FULL_PLATE.........0
CAV_NONE................1
CAV_LIGHT...............1
CAV_LIGHT_MAIL..........1
CAV_MAIL................1
CAV_HVY_MAIL............1
CAV_HALF_PLATE..........0.5
CAV_FULL_PLATE..........0

You can view more in the original "crusader_unit_prod11.xls". You can find one at the Totalwar.Org

Edit: I forgot that this forum doesn't like tab. Now it readable.

[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 10-05-2002).]

[AgentBif]

Quote Originally posted by pdoan8:
Despite of their AP (armour piercing) and AC (anti-cavalry) capability, Billmen often get mowed down by MAA, Feudal Sergeant and good cavalry in a headon clash. Billmen are good for flanking and fight in the wood.
[/QUOTE]

Uh, thanks bud for the help, at least it looks like you provided a lot of useful info there.

Umm... anyone wanna translate that posting of his?

bif

[pdoan8]

I can compile an excel file for all units, but it will be very long post in text format and will not be easy to read.

Anyway, The first part: weapon type of a given unit...Description of the weapon... use in melee or not (a few example units).

Second part: bonus given by each type of shield.

Third part: depend on the armour level, a unit will get this amount of bonus from the shield. For example, Lancer which has Cav_Full_Plate so it gains nothing from the shield even if it has shield. A foot unit that has Foot_Mail armour and have small shiel will gain 1 def, 1 att and 0 charge bonus from the shield (whole bonus). A foot unit which has Foot_Half_Plate armour and small shield will gain half (0.5) of the bonus from small shield that equate to 0.5 def, 0.5 att and 0 charge bonus.

For more detail on which unit use which type of weapon, armour, shield, you can down load the original file and take a look. You can also use it to mod unit stats. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


Here is the link to the file (Production excel file). Last one in the list by Target.
http://www.totalwar.org/MTWFiles/Docs.shtml


[This message has been edited by pdoan8 (edited 10-05-2002).]

[solypsist]

closed.
maybe this will be archived.