View Full Version : lib Check? Don\'t move that King though
Fought off the French Crusade against Granada. Smashed the Turkish Jihad against Syria. Things were looking up.
The Almohad empire stretched from Spain to right across the bottom of the map to the gates of Constantinople itself.
Then I made big mistake. I decided to move my ruler from Cordoba where he had been hanging out since the start of the game to Palestine where I tohught he could be of more use.
He arrived in Egypt en-route when all hell broke loose in Spain. Major revolts in Portugal, Grenada, Morocco and Algeria with huge armies (fortunately mostly peasant)
Lost two provinces and a large number of buildings.
The moral being: Don't move your king.
The potential consequences are far reaching and almost impossible to predict.
Course if your king dies and the next in line is half the world away at the time you may suffer the consequences anyway.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
I think the morale would rather be:
"Don't move your king quick and far."
If you had moved him slowly you would have been able to notice the dropping loyalty and you could then have stopped him.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Moving the king far away can really spoil your campaign, and it can happen unexpectedly upon succession. An heir teleports to the most developed province when he becomes king. In my English campaign I conquered Egypt which was highly developed and had a royal palace. When my king who was in Castile died the next year, my heir who was also in Castile teleported to Egypy which was the farthest possible place from the territories I owned. Loyalty dropped at least 125% in all the western Europen territories. I had a bunch of territories with 1% loyalty which all had over 125% before the succession. The French re-emerged immediately in 4 territories including Wessex. I knew more rebellions would be on the way in subsequent turns. It was going to take me 6 years to get my king back to Castile.
Since I didn't understand the conditions which caused the king's teleportation before that turn, I reloaded which meant I had refight a huge battle, but the game is probably lost if I don't go back. Now I destroyed the royal palace in Egypt, and I built one in Wessex. My king didn't die the next year, and in fact survived about 6 years. However, when he did die the same prince in Castile assumed the throne, but this time teleported to Wessex. Loyalty remained high, and there were no rebellions.
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 09-28-2002).]
/me hugs Puzz3d
Thx. for that insight man !! I explained a lot to me, since n00bish me didn´t know http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif .
Soapyfrog
09-28-2002, 23:21
The loyalty of a porvince is dramatically affected by the distance from the monarch. Generally if the monarch could get there in two or three moves theoretically, then loyalty will be good. Any further and loyalty will degrade dramatically.
I noticed this in my game where the loyalty of my far flung Middle Eastern possessions would fluctuate wildly depending on whether my chain of ships was being obstructed or not.
I never move my king or the prince's. So succession is always smooth.
I have two princes and a king in the eare around Syria and Palestine, and two princes in norhern spain.
All of my kings is always front line fighters,a nd the princes too! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
i keep my kings and princes where they should be - in the popes bedrooms (or some other bedrooms in vatican city) making lots more heirs http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Stu35s MTW Site - Hints,Lists,Facts,And Porn (http://www.angelfire.com/games4/mtw) (one of those is a lie)
http://www.geocities.com/wolflord_uk/stu35
Alba Gu Bragh
Hakonarson
09-30-2002, 04:27
I think distance isn't so important as communications.
I've had my King at one far end of my empire and no problems - but as son as I move him to an enemy provice that doesn't have a port - instant masive revolts - yuo know the ones - 10-20 provinces, all the disappeared factions re-appear, etc.
this has happened to me 3times so far - I can move the guy from Palestine to Scotland with no probs, but in a portless Cordoba everyone thinks he's dead or soemthing!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
TheLastEuropean
09-30-2002, 14:31
Hmmmm, yes well. I thought I understood this. Actually, I do understand this. Except something just happened I can't explain. My English King was in Provence. I moved him to Leon. Then next move I attacked Portugal. Right after winning that battle Scotland and Mercia revolted. Reload and check everything and I find loyalty is at 200% BOTH before and AFTER this rebellion. The port was not destroyed in the invasion and Portugal is quite close to those lands that rebelled. Both Scotland and Mercia contained 1 spy, 1 assassin, 1 bishop and an emissary, and Mercia has been held since the beginning of the game and had a 5 Billmen garrison in, similarly Scotland had 4 Highlander garrison. My King has 6 command rating and 7 or 8 influence.
I don't understand this at all.
When your king attacks the enemy province, he is "cut off" from the rest of the realm that turn. Therefore you get rebellions in a sprawling empire.
Rosacrux
09-30-2002, 15:09
Right-o. And best thing to avoid this is to keep the bugger in his chambers with his queen... and those nasty popcupines... and the princesses... and the young boys... and all the leather stuff... and the sheep and... uh, oh... well...
got off line here...
*this message will self-destruct in 9... 8...*
Quote Originally posted by hrvojej:
When your king attacks the enemy province, he is "cut off" from the rest of the realm that turn. Therefore you get rebellions in a sprawling empire.[/QUOTE]
Ah! so sometimes the loyalty map can be misleading in showing every thing as Green.
Because actions during the move can change the loyalty before it is tested even though by the end of the same move the event that caused it to change and possibly rebel no longer exists.
So basically, its not enough just to check for everything being Green before pressing GO. You also have to consider what allowance to make for likely events during the turn.
That being the case I would like to be able to tune the Loyalty display so that I can set the Green level higher. That way I can keep all my provinces at 150% loyalty or something.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
Didz, remember also that the shift-"traffic light" display for loyalty is bugged at the moment, and is being fixed in the patch. As it is now, only after you right-click the province, the display will actually be updated with correct colour, instead of it being updated automatically.
TheLastEuropean
09-30-2002, 16:19
That makes no sense at all then. Why is the King 'CUT OFF' when attacking another province over a border? No sense at all - either realistically or 'in game'. He has simply marched a little further, that is all. The line of retreat into the previous province is still intact - the port doesn't even come into the question really as lines of communciation etc. are all intact.
And, to go by the replies, you are saying that the loyalty 'changes' in between moves then 'changes' back before the move ends???? So, in my example, the loyalty dropped to rebellion levels on the end of the turn because my king had to fight in Portugal. Then, after I had won the battle, it returned to 200% loyalty??? So, you get NO indication of what went on.
How are you supposed to do anything about that then? It's totally beyond ANY planning the player may make - apart from total guess-work that is. No, not even guessing would help in this situation.
I don't like the sound of loyalty bouncing up and down with all it's inherent affects IN BTWEEN MOVES when you cannot respond to it. I can handle everything else but this makes no sense whatsoever and, seemingly, cannot even be properly countered at all.
It would seem as if though the attacking king is treated the same as if he is on an island with no link to the rest of the empire. I might be wrong, but that's my experience, and I've read similar posts here as well. What I do know is that it's dynamic (try moving the garrison in and out in the same turn and you'll see the loyalty changes) and bugged at the moment (those dynamic changes won't show up on the shift map unless you right-click the province). I don't use the king offensively after a while, and try to find the province that will be in the middle of my lands no matter what for him to sit in once my kingdom gets to a certain size.
Hope this helps http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 09-30-2002).]
Actually, I've got mixed feelings about it.
The control freak in me objects to not being able to predict and control the loyalty of all my provinces and ensure a rebellion free environment.
However, the roleplayer in me says. Hey! what the heck, is it realistic that a King can press a button and get instant and accurate feedback on his popularity.
If your King goes off to war leaving control of the day to day management of the realm in the safe hands of his perhaps less than loyal and capable minions what does he expect to happen. It also makes sense that anyone thinking of starting trouble would do so when the King is distracted on some foreign field.
So! I'm thinking that it's not such a bad feature. It just needs to be understood.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
TheLastEuropean
09-30-2002, 19:07
>>>>"If your King goes off to war leaving control of the day to day management of the realm in the safe hands of his perhaps less than loyal and capable minions what does he expect to happen. It also makes sense that anyone thinking of starting trouble would do so when the King is distracted on some foreign field.
So! I'm thinking that it's not such a bad feature. It just needs to be understood."
Soapyfrog
09-30-2002, 19:47
When the cat is away the mice will play.
WHen the king embarks on foreign adventures, minor nobles see it as a good opportunity to seize some power... happened all the time.
Quote Originally posted by Soapyfrog:
When the cat is away the mice will play.
WHen the king embarks on foreign adventures, minor nobles see it as a good opportunity to seize some power... happened all the time.[/QUOTE]
Exactly! sounds to me like everything is just too sqeaky clean for us lesser mortals to feel comfortable.
Like that annoying guy that does everything perfectly. Great job, lovely wife, well behaved children, manicured lawns, shiny car that never brakes down.
You just want to kill the bastard.
Perhaps your rebellions were led by all those noblemen who just couldn't make the grade in your perfect kingdom http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
TheLastEuropean
09-30-2002, 21:36
........in other words the oral equivalent of a shrug of the shoulders.
Something a little more tangible would be preferred rather than just abstracting it out with "Cats away, mice will play" or the "nobles" justification. If it so turns out that rebellions are indeed just thrown up randomly, unjustifiably and uncontrollably then that is weak and no amount of explanations will change that.
BTW, I was attacking a Rebel province - so that ALSO rules out the "interruption of trade" point that's sometimes the plausible cause of such a rebellion. (meaning I did not start any wars in this attack)
So here's the final (real-world) analysis:-
Spies: NO, or loyalty in the province would've been changed, noticeably and stayed so after the turn had ended.
Trade Interruption Causing Unhappiness/Low Loyalty: NO - I'm at peace - see explanation above.
Low Loyalty Anyway: NO, 200%.
Bad Governor: NO, (in work but will post Guv's V&V's [if need be] when I get home but I know they both have v.good attributes)
King Far Away: NO, Portugal??? It's not that far and anyway, this would also drops province loyalty would it not?? Loyalty did not drop!
King Blocked: *Sigh* NOOOOOOO! (unless just attacking a province cause him to be blocked - for which my point was made earlier above)
I am totally stumped and would merely like to know if there is something I missed or just a random 'feature' of the game.
Soapyfrog
09-30-2002, 21:44
Well, no visible loyalty drop is a bit of a mystery.
I've never seen that...
The only excuse I can think of is that (like spies) the loyalty effect of moving your king outside your borders is unpredictable.
SO: You move your king out of your borders to attack portugal, and you cannot see the loyalty penalty you are incurring.
The turn proceeds, revolts are calculated for you king being on campaign, revolts occur.
The turn resolves, Portugal is now yours, your King is once more within the borders of his empire, the indictated loyalty returns to it's high levels.
So you never get to see the low loyalty that spawns the revolt.
Like I said, I have never actually seen this problem... whenever I have the king too distant problem the loyalty effects are always quite obvious on the next turn.
So I am just theorizing http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
BlackWatch McKenna
09-30-2002, 22:01
Isn't that what happened in Ivanho / Robin Hood?
The King was away and the mice did play.
TheLastEuropean
09-30-2002, 23:02
SoapyFrog: Yes, that is currently the ONLY valid explanation I can think of. As you say, no loyalty drop is strange. But, such an 'affect' is totally uncontestable by the player and SHOULD really be 2 turns on behalf of the AI. Most instances of this kind take 2 turn. In this instance loyalty should have dropped to rebellion levels but the rebellion should not have occured until the next turn. Then, if I noticed, I could take steps to do something about it.
I mean, if such dynamic effects occur 'in-between' turns then how are you supposed to get a handle on them? Even so, it must have been a MAJOR drop in loyalty to go from 200% with 1 spy, priest, assassin and emissary down to rebellion levels then spring back to 200% instantly after the king is 'liberated' from his (imaginary) confinement but, yes, that's all I can think of too. Unless it is a bug, which I suppose is always possible.
I have the game saved at this point with the rebel armies waiting to attack at the end of the turn and loyalties at 200%. All very odd.
I just can't see a viable explanation. There is always the possibility that rebellions DO contain a bug.
TheLastEuropean
09-30-2002, 23:23
Just checked the save game - some more details:
Both provinces suffered 'Peasant' revolts.
Guv's credentials in both Provinces:-
Mercia:
Mag. Builder
Charming
Often Drunk
Steward
Scotland:
Mag. Builder
Sybanite
Chivalrous
Steward
King:
6 command stars
7 Influence
Natural Born Killer
Secret Pride
Friendly
Mag.Builder
Scant Mercy
Skilled Attacker
1 and only heir Prince Richard:
6 Stars (born this way)
Scarred
Irritable
Charming
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As a (somewhat limited) indication see Prince Richard who was churned out with 6 stars and
maxed out in loyalty - something I've got used to as 'normal' in this game since, as stated, I've carefully nurtured my king since the start.
Sorry to keep harping on but (as Vic and Bob used to say) I will not let it lie!!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by TheLastEuropean (edited 09-30-2002).]
Must admit its difficult to see how Mercia could have dropped from 200% loyalty down to a level that allowed a peasant revolt and then back up to 200% loyalty all in the space of one turn.
Are you sure it was on 200% loyalty at the start of the turn. I know I tend to have my tax rate turned up to maximum so I rarely acheive such heady levels of popularity?
The only thing I have noticed is that King (or in my case Khalif) location is very finicky. I have my Khalif in Egypt at present whic is about the nearest to the middle of my empire as possible. But even a single province move to Palestine causes Portugal to go Yellow.
When my Khalif died and his successor was found to be in on holiday in Armenia the most of the Iberian Peninsula went RED along with Morroco, Algeria and Tunisia. Only Cordoba, Valencia and Genada remained Green as a result of having large armies in them to protect against French Crusades.
I was then forced to do quite a bit of unit juggling to reduce rebelion threats until the Khalif could rush back to Eygypt.
Mind you I did get a turn to respond and I doubt I was on 200% loyalty to begin with.
Sounds a bit fishy to me.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
Didz, do you have a port in Palestine? If not, that means that Khalif cannot get to the Iberia in one turn, assuming you have everything connected with ships. The game calculates the distance to the ruler in a manner of turns it would take him to get there. If you move him to Palestine (which is 2 provinces away from Egypt; sorry, couldn't resist the nitpicking http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ), that would mean 3 moves assuming that sea routes are uninterrupted if the nearest port is in Egypt. Enough for the capricious Portugal to rebel if you don't have a garrison of *at least* 500 peasants in it.
[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 09-30-2002).]
Soapyfrog
10-01-2002, 00:37
Do you have a saved game just before you invade Portugal?
I wouldn't mind doing some tests...
TheLastEuropean
10-01-2002, 02:45
Actually I found I do. Except it's about 3 or 4 turns before, and I've been playing about with it to recreate the rebellion and it doesn't happen! I can fairly certainly recreate the moves I did in each of the 3 or 4 I made before attacking into Portugal because everything was fairly static and I only moved a few units into position ready to attack. But the rebellion doesn't occur.
Hmmm, how do I attach?
TheLastEuropean
10-01-2002, 04:23
Aha! I think I have it. It must be taxes and its rather interesting. I managed to recreate the rebellion. Or rather, a variant of it since it now always seems to happen in Wales instead, probably due to a slight variation in my moves. It happens constantly enough to test anyway and I've discovered that it must be down to the tax level. What I noticed was, interestingly, on the turn with the rebellion, if you press the SHIFT key, it highlights Mercia and Scotland as RED even though they were at 200% loyalty both before and after the turn. Which is weird. Now, the tax rate in Wales and Mercia is 'Very High' whilst in Scotland it is 'Normal'. I had just been at war with the Almohads and had to put the taxes up since trade was severly blockaded but they were raised for only 10-20 years and previous to that they had been at 'Normal' at all times.
So, my theory is this: the AI calculated whether a rebellion was to occur for all the possible reasons and 'decided' taxes had been too high for those provinces for too long, regardless of the garrison (or whatever reasoning the AI uses - somehow it 'decided' those provinces). Thus, it created the rebellions. I tried playing the 2 moves previous but lowered taxes to 'Very Low' first and found the rebellions never occurred. However, they did 'almost' occur because Wales and Mercia were both yellow and Scotland was red!
So, good news and bad news. It seems that 1 or 2 60-man unit plus a spy is not enough to prevent this (in scotland I had 3 highland clansmen and 6, yes SIX, culverins lol). Taking into account the (relatively small imo) distance away your king is too remember. BUT, by pressing SHIFT after each turn it seems you can gain a foresight into whether a rebellion is immenent.
I somehow feel the SHIFT key thing might be a bug though and perhaps that's not meant to happen! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
ANyway, you can download it here (zipped) if you're interested after all that (lol):-
http://www.beafheart.freeserve.co.uk/store/3or4TurnsBefore.zip (http://www.beafheart.freeserve.co.uk/)
Just move the king from Toulouse to Cordoba. Hit 'End Turn'. Move 2 longbowmen from Wales to Portugal, move King into Portugal, and move the swiss pikeman & pavise arbalesters into portugal, also move 2 spies from scotland to ireland. Hit 'End Turn'. Auto-resolve the battle and release all prisoners. Rebellion occurs (after about 1 million spies have been caught lol).
It's on Hard difficulty level.
[This message has been edited by TheLastEuropean (edited 09-30-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by TheLastEuropean:
BUT, by pressing SHIFT after each turn it seems you can gain a foresight into whether a rebellion is immenent.
I somehow feel the SHIFT key thing might be a bug though and perhaps that's not meant to happen! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by TheLastEuropean (edited 09-30-2002).][/QUOTE]
Yes! I think you have cracked it.
I am pretty used to this concept of the loyalty display and army strength having been forced to juggle armies around the Iberian peninsular on several occasions to suppress irate peasantry.
There is a definite and quite marked relationship between troop strength, troop quality and loyalty. Shifting a single unit in or out of a province can make the difference between Green and Red on the rebellion display especailly when tax rates are high.
Also switching an high quality unit for a low quality one can make the same difference even though numbers remain constant. Whilst switching a large unit for a small one can have a similar result. So I find I have to check the loyalty display after every troop move just to ensure the provinces involved are still Green.
But here's the rub.
There is a bug in the Loyalty display which means that sometimes it stays Green even though the actual Loyalty level is in the RED. To get the display to update properly you have to right click on the province first.
And another issue I have discovered is that it is very easy if you are working through a long routine of right click checks to Right Click, look at the rebelion probability line, see that it is 0% and move on without noticing that the current province is not the one your mouse pointer is hovering over. I have done this several times especailly when moving troops to bolster up the counter-insurgency force in a Red province. You pick up a unit from the Green province drop it in the Red province and Right-Click to check the loyalty effect and don't realise that the current province is still the Green one you collected the unit from rather than the one you moved it too. So you easily get a false impression that all is now sorted when it probably isn't.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
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