View Full Version : lib Is trade worth the bother?
From my own limited research and reading feedback from others it seems that trade generates very little return in return for a hell of a lot of hassle.
Returns of 100f or 200f per port are not particularly tempting when a simple mine does as much and doesn't require command of the sea to maintain.
Personally, my Almohad Empire has managed to become the richest factor in the campaign without building a single ship.
Which just makes me wonder.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
Actually, Didz, its not uncommon to get a several thousands florins per year in one province by trade.
So trade is worth every effort. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
you don't need trade to win, even on expert, but trade can double your overall income quite easily. Takes a bit of time and investment, but once you get the florins rolling...
Quote is trade worth the bother[/QUOTE]
yes.
You dont need it to win, in fact its a game in itself to try and win without trading at all,
but for gods sake it quadruples your income no problem
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Alba Gu Bragh
Hmmm, winning a game without tradeing. Interesting.
How do you do it ?
Do you try to grab as many provinces as fast as you can ? In order to get some decent income from farming to support your armies ?
Just curious...
"Hmmm, winning a game without tradeing. Interesting.
How do you do it ?
Do you try to grab as many provinces as fast as you can ?"
yes, rushing early is very effective
" In order to get some decent income from farming to support your armies ?"
yes as well, farming + mining + aggressive conquest early on works even in expert (and are the 'natural' way to go for 'continental powers as russia and Poland who can rely so much on trade.
The rushing strategy quickly gives you the critical mass to steamroll across the map. Which is the most boring way to play the game by the way.
Wolfgrin
09-25-2002, 21:35
Yeah, I'd like to know how you support many armies of something better than peasants without trade.
As to the original question, yes trade is worth it. However, if you are doing okay without it, great. My problem is that I depend so much on trade that when my trading partners turn against me in the last 100 years or so, my economy goes straight into the sh*tter. Even with a huge war chest of 200,000 florins, I find myself in the red fairly quickly. Then again, I do like quality in my troops and I like LOTS of them.
Mount Suribachi
09-25-2002, 21:44
Well Didz, you're playing as the Elmos and you have all those N African provinces with their gold mine which give you a very tidy income, and my have misled you somewhat. But trust me, that pales into significance compared to what trade can bring in. As Italy in 1180 my income is around 18,000 florins per turn, and I haven't even begun to upgrade my merchants yet. Getting just ONE ship into the black sea gives you access to about 6 ports...your income shoots up. Get trading round the med!
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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg
Ah! So I am being misinformed by people who say 100f to 200f per port then.
Does anyone have any real figures on ROI?
Incidently, when I last check my ALmohad income was over 23,000f but many of my richest provinces are on 80% farming 4+ Acumen Governors and Very High Tax and I have built every Mine Complex available.
It does fluctuate though because I turn the tax rate down on any province which is being used to launch an invasion or supply troops for the front.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
Hosakawa Tito
09-25-2002, 22:37
Definitely get your trading set up. Some of the most important coastal trading territories like Flanders, Antioch, Canstantinople, Venice, Sweden, etc... generate tons of florins. Build up your bank account, don't spend it all every turn building redundant buildings in every province. Eventually you'll have to go to war with factions who were your best trading partners, then your trade is going to dry up due to blockades and you'll have to live on your savings. I'm in this situation now in my current campaign,glorious achievments, as the English. My main competition are the Spanish in the holy lands. He is blocking my crusade to Palestine and if I attack him there my trade will go into the dumper. I have no ships in the med to counter him yet, and I don't have a big enough bankroll to start a war with him either. I'm going to have to bide my time, build up my navy, clean up the scattered Turks in Armenia and Rum. I love this game.
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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
insolent1
09-26-2002, 05:08
Trade is worth it as u can see all costal provinces on map which can lead to some great opportunites. In my last camapign as the french by about 1280 i had 1,350,000 in my warchests i'm still tryin to spend it fortess's everywhere http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The reason that you need trade and collect as much money as you can from trade is for later in the campaign when there are not many people left to trade with.
Trade is making good money fast. In stead of spending every florin that you can make, you should save it. Save as many as you can. The bigger saving you have, the easier your offensive campaign will be.
Another good reason that you should invest in trade is the use of your fleet. You use your fleet both for trade and moving troops. The bigger/longer the trade fleet/route, the more money you can make and it allows you to move troops to many places.
hmm...I should look at this trade thing, but I've completed four games now without it...I don't really understand all the fuss. This is total war - not merchant prince 2, attack god dammit! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
I first played the campaign (on easy, hah) as the Almohad and never used trade. I simply didn't need it, I was making more money then anyone else just from the extensive farmlands and mine complexes I had. Owning all of Spain, half of Western Europe, all of North Africa and most of the Middle East I think I was making something like 15000 Florins/Year.
In my latest game I'm playing the Danish (normal dif, still learning http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ), starting in the early period. Upon starting I immediatly launched an aggressive campaign taking over Sweden, Norway, Saxony (as a bridgehead to the Baltic region), most of the Baltic Sea states and provinces reaching up to and including Kiev across Russia. This left me incredibly thin on resources and owning a bunch of lands with a) no mines and b) awful agricultural potential.
This lead me to looking at trade as a revenue option. Sweden alone, my top revenue province (Citadel and matching merchant building), now generates over 4000 Florins/year (highest tax). Several other provinces generate similar amounts of money.
After some more conquest (1220 now) I now own a 400K Florins warchest, all of Russia (bordered by Poland/Hungary), all of Scandinavia and the entire Baltic region. My trade network of longboats and caravels covers every coastal sea in the game, my first five fortresses are reaching completion and I have citadels and castles all over the place. My income is 30K Florins/Year with just 8K expenses (another great advantage of having a ship in every sea and a port (for trading) in every coastal province is that you can use just one or two large, powerful intervention armies).
So basically, trade is definitly worth it. I even have a feeling it's making the game a little too easy, especially if you make incredibely long trade links (e.g. Sweden to Egypt all by longboat). The computer never sends his ships very far from home, which severely limits his income potential from trade (as I experienced when the English cut me off from the rest of the world and my income immediatly halved).
As the Almoheds, I used trade to accumulate over 700,000 florins by the 1300's.
FerretKing
09-26-2002, 09:10
I have a few questions on trade I still do not understand. First off, can you only trade with your allies? Or can you also trade with people neutral toward you? And does it matter if you have more than one ship in one "trade zone"? Or do you get more money by having more than one ship in one zone? Thanks
You can trade with neutrals. Almohad trade is misleading. I am playing them as my third campaign. The Iberian peninsula has high farm income but low value trade goods and only Cordoba and Portugal have 2 trade goods and not very good ones at that.. They also have lots of minerals like gold but have provinces without trade goods.
I played British first and Egyptian 2nd. It's not uncommon to have provinces with over 2k trade income. In fact, if I didn't declare war on the Byzantines early on, Antioch could possibly have around 4k trade income with only a merchant's guild. I had around 45-50k revenues with the English.
Sweden, Lithunia, Flanders, Venice, Constantinople and Antioch have 3 trade goods with the last three having valuable ones. Others like Tripoli and Egypt have 2 good ones. More than 2k trade income is not uncommon even if you are at war with a few factions.
Trade that's built from the start is worth it. But when you try to establish trade when you're one of the superpowers can be tricky. There seems to be a threshold in your income/territories factor that triggers ridicilous gang-up attacks from the AI which usually kills your trade.
So if you've been building up trade routes (don't forget the cost of ships you need, plus the support costs) and then only get to enjoy the benefits for a decade or two before total war breaks out, it might not be worth it.
Nobunaga0611
09-26-2002, 10:46
Hmmm...I must not be doing something right. As the Italians right now I'm making about 800 florins a year, but just got excommunicated, so that'll probably go down. I've got ships from the Spanish sea routes all the way up to the Black Sea, with no blockades. Yet my Merchant's Guild in Venice only makes about 900 florins a year. I've got governor w/a 6 acumen rating, and 4 dread, not that dread increases income, but helps me keep loyalty at 200% with very high taxes of course. So I must be doing something wrong.
With the English I quickly ran into an Almohad wall, as they eliminated the Spanish, and had well over 3000 troops in each of the two provinces that bordered mine. Well when I have an army of around 800 troops in that province, probably my biggest army too, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that they quickly overwhelmed me. I had 1800+ kills, and around 550 losses, but my army was too exhausted to go on. Its gone back and forth like this for around 20 years, with me getting nowhere.
And, not to mention the fact that my campaign with the Almohads went nowhere. I thought my Elmo Urban Milita would roll over everyone in the Early Era, but I seriously had 3 Civil Wars in the first 30 years. Can't seem to get my loyalty up even if I give titles to generals. I finally just started a campaign with another faction. Hmm...I must not be good at this. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
MajorPain
09-26-2002, 10:47
I dont rely on trade anymore.
1. I was playing as the english, and a plus income on 15.000 each year. Byz went to war against me suddenly I my income was -10.000 a year. In my warchest I had 350.000 somthing and that was around 1250. Do you know how fast that will become 0 money. after I reached that limit I started to launch attacks in every direction that was possible when the war ended 1453 I had -5000 somthing, I never got on the plus side again. I manage to get that high as -5000 thru pillaging other countries. I did won that campain but it was a close one.
And the campain im playing now Im Denmark. I have scandinavia, northeast provinces of the novgorods, britania with Ireland and almost whole spain exept aragorn. Britania and Spain I got from sending in spys the provinces revolt then I go in and take them. Have manage to stay out of war till now. The egyptian attacked me and my income went down from a +6000 to -1000 a year. I have no income about 60.000 in warchest. I have my main army in former Novgo... provinces cause im in war with turks now too. Britania, Ireland and Spain I cant reach. Britania can produce some good swiss armoured pikemen. But it wont be much cause Egypt already invaded it and I dont have any army that can beat the invading it. The best unit I can produce are vikings. I cant hire mercs... So if Egypt invade there too I will lose it.
MY POINT here is never rely on trade, the income from that can disappear when you atleast knonw it, then you have a negative income. And the line of boats will disappear so you cant ship any units.
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STW will always be #1
Hmmm! It seems there is money to be made from trade but not everyone is managing to make it. The ROI's being quote vary enormously and I suspect some people are actually making a loss if they add up the investment and maintenance costs involved.
What I still don't have is a clear statement of how to make money from trade. What investment achieves what return etc.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
I'm playing a very cautious game with trade these days. The money to be gained is phenomenal, but it can evaporate in an instant.
As the English I'm making sure my trade routes are heavily defended with bases along the way where I can build fleets in times of war (islands are best since they have no land threat). This means that on the outbreak of war I can start churning out ships instantly to blast the enemy from the seas.
I'm also playing a very careful diplomatic game, making sure to stay as freindly with my major trading partners as possible - marrying pricessess off regularly, and staying mostly out of their spheres of influence.
It seems to have paid off - when the Byzantines went to war with me I was able to smash their fleet in a number of epic naval battles (in the battle of Constantiople there were over 30 ships involved!). Strategic strikes and a fantastic defense of the Holy land which broke their main armies weakened the Byzantines enough until other factions crushed them for me. As war booty I just snapped up Crete and Constantinople, leaving the rest to others.
Now I'm back to earning 40K+ a turn (~20K profit). I started the war with 150K and ended it with 90K so the losses weren't too severe.
Eventually of course I expect the trading system is going to collapse, but by then I'll have eough funds to smoothly transition into outright conquest.
Damn, 2k florins from a merchant a year, think of the investment... I'm really happy my every port is producing 200f, not enough to wreck my economy when the a major war starts since I don't totally rely on it but nice support that has paid itself off easily.
Maybe the difficulty level matters, I can imagine that on expert the AI is very agressive, which means you'll never get to benefit from trade.
On normal however, trade is really useful is you are willing to sit back and be peaceful. Most people who complain about their income evaporating seem to own lands all over the world and are set on conquering some more.
Me, I owned two tightly sealed of regions with a couple provinces linking them up and have kept my expansionist behaviour well in check. I send my princesses around everywhere and try to ally with everyone I meet. So basically, if you're willing to play diplomatically for the first two hundred years (after an initial conquest rush so you can rule a nicely large homeland), trade is the way to go... it will give you so much money (all on the back of a mid-sized empire) that by the time you go to conquest and trade collapses it won't matter anymore.
If you're set on just steamrolling across the map from day one however, I can see trade being a very bad investment.
Basically, if you play 'realistically' (behaving as a nation would in that time - occasional opportunistic conquest but mainly solidifying your own position with diplomacy and trade) and are satisfied with ending the game with maybe not all of the map owned but knowing that technically you rule the known world anyway (because of your infrastructure, armies and funds), trade is great.
Mori Gabriel Syme
09-26-2002, 23:14
I must be building too many improvements. My income is decent, but I spend almost all of it to support troops (English) because the Spanish have huge armies on my frontier, armies larger than mine. What money remains I spend on improvements to build better troops. I've never had even 20,000 in the treasury. Maybe I haven't understood the trading aspects either. The problem is certainly me, not the game.
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Once more into the breach, dear friends; once more consign their parts most private to a Rutland tree! & men in London, still a-bed, shall think themselves accursed they were not here & hold their manhood cheap while others speak who fought with us on Ralph the Liar's Day!
--Richard III
The Black Adder: Ep. 1-The Foretelling
Quote Originally posted by Ligur:
Damn, 2k florins from a merchant a year, think of the investment... I'm really happy my every port is producing 200f.[/QUOTE]
But have you worked out how much it cost you to invest in the buildings and ships to return that 200f?
And what the annual maintenance cost is?
Its possible you could be make a loss on the deal.
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Didz
Fortis balore et armis
Quote Originally posted by DustTC:
Maybe the difficulty level matters, I can imagine that on expert the AI is very agressive, which means you'll never get to benefit from trade.
[/QUOTE]
Actually I'm finding that even on expert you can reap massive returns from trade. The trick is not to be too pushy. Keep yourself geographically isolated from your main trading partners, and make full use of princesses; lack of contact on land means lack of reason to attack, and continual marriage ties seems to keep the AI happy. Also make sure that you can clear your trade routes quickly in times of war with the occasional individual. That means bases to stage the fleets from, for which the little islands are perfect.
I'm playing as the English, and in 1320 I now have over 400,000 florins stocked up, and gaining about 15,000 a year after expenses and expenditures. I plan to wait for the Black Death, and then strike and take what I want, weaken all potential enemies and then just mop up on a global scale. Actually there's no reason for me to attack - I'm already way ahead on the glorious achievements - but it will be fun.
Anyway, even if ALL my income gets wiped out, I have enough cash for 20 years, and it's only getting better.
As for buildings, I actually have thrown up a lot. I see them as sort of a bank. It lets me spit out the units I want quickly when the need arises, and if I need some quick florins I can sell off the unneeded ones for cash. If the money just sat in my treasury I'd be tempted to spend it on more troops which I don't need.
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