View Full Version : lib The Danes never do anything!!
Unless of course the human player plays them!
Anyway, the Danes should really be encouraged to attack Sweden and Norway from the start... not just sit and accumulate heirs with royal knights in Denmark.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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Yeap, in 4 games I've never seen them with more than one province.
Ditto. Kind of disappointing. They really can have some good fights with the english if they bide their time and lay into scotland at the right time.
Sepiche
Hosakawa Tito
09-26-2002, 04:12
Same with me, and I thought the Danes would be pretty agressive. I guess I'll have to play as the Danes.
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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
Pachinko
09-26-2002, 04:13
you're right. Its kinda the same thing for Aragon.
P.
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Crush your enemies, see them driven before you on the field of battle, and hear the lamentation of their women.
Hakonarson
09-26-2002, 04:14
I had teh Danes try to take Sweden from me last night, and they also tried to invade Nth Germany a couple of times in the game.
I have actually seen them start to conqour northern Europe, I was Spanish, and the HRE was in a bad way, there were lots of rebellions and things in Northern Europe and they came down and started to clean up.
My latest game I am the HRE and Arganoese have taken the Ibarion Peninsula and were in Morocco, then they had a huge Civil War. This came after Spain had hammered the Almohad.
These are the exceptions though.
Well, when I played the Egyptians sure enough the Danes did dick-all (the three games before that I played the Danes myself).
However, in my current game as Expert, playing the English, the Danes are becoming quite impressive. They sat around doing nothing until both France and the HRE collapsed, and then they suddenly siezed Sweden and Norway, and a few turns later invaded northern Germany. They now hold three German provinces (though they'll probably lose Freisland in a few years) but I was pleasantly surprised to see them actually doing something.
In some ways the danes are the most difficult of the factions to play on early. It really sucks that they have no choice but to attack other catholics if they want to expand early on.
I wish they could get ships faster to allow them to make the amphibious assults for which they were known.
I havent been able to play them for any length of time because I cant stand sitting on my hands while I wait for ships or getting involved in a war versus the HRE, possibly getting excommunicated.
most players as the danes make straight for sweden and norway and then either pick on germany by going through saxony or build boats and start for england or the baltic area
the ai dane builds up forces then goes after saxony and seeks to go through that way
considering how weak the danes are at the start this is sucicide (for the ai anyway)so what happens is the ai builds up and then launches attacks against a strong germany which has also been building
if you watch over time you will see saxony change hands quite a few times
unless germany gets ganged up on by the french and italians the dane ai has got no chance
on a similiar note its kinda surprising the english never seem to go after scotland or ireland
Swisspike
09-26-2002, 14:57
I am a little surprised to hear that you believe the Danes are difficult to play on early.
I had my...by far...easiest time of it with the Danes.
The key is to rapidly expand your trading fleet, and to take over Sweden/Finland area.
By wrapping my fleet all the way into the Med, I was gaining ENORMOUS trade revenue.
It is about 1200, and I own the British Isles, all of Scandanavia, all of Eastern Europe and east of the Black Sea, all of what used to be France, and now most of the HRE.
Pretty easily, too.
My first (and current, on normal) campaign was the Danes. I took Sweden and Norway at once, built a ship ASAP and then took over the baltic states when the respective factions had rebellions etc. I didn't have to start a war with anyone, I just took provinces as soon as they rebelled or were rebel controlled to begin with. This, of course, hurt my trade but I got more provinces that way.
Then HRE attacked me.
I trounced the Emperor (he died in a glorious battle), took Saxony, Friesland, Pomerania and Prussia. The Almohads were invading England so I proposed peace to HRE so I could fight the Moslems but the new Emperor refused so I had to drive him all the way to Venice. The Pope said the word and I stopped.
By this time the Almohads had a huge empire, had invaded all of the British Isles and killed the English. I took the British Isles back from the infidels. Even Pope was happy.
Now I'm allied with the French, have a peace with HRE and plenty time to build armies so I can drive the Almohads away from Iberia.
Did I have it particularly easy?
Playing as Danes there is no need to attack any Catholic factions. Like Swisspike I found the Danes extremely easy, the key is to get the ships(longboats) in all possible sea lanes like SwissPike said. Trade is enourmous.
Just go conquering the Muslim factions then but not before taking Scotland, Wales, Ireland and any other rebel provinces you come across.
I have posted before that the AI for the Danes may not be working correctly as they start as a Catholic_expansionist which they certainly don't do. Maybe changing the starting behaviour may help. However I am waiting for first patch before going down the road of testing this and then modding AI behaviour. But there certainly is alot of stuff we can try to make MTW better than it already is.
Might as well take this opp to say Big thanks to CA once again for a truly great masterpiece.
Remember every Masterpiece isn't perfect http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
My problem is not with me controlling the Danes, but instead when the AI controls them.
And yes, DrNo, i have considered tweaking the Dane's starting behaviour to see if that makes any difference to them. Possibly Naval_Trader or Naval_Expansionist?
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[This message has been edited by +DOC+ (edited 09-26-2002).]
im currently playing as the danes. like others said, the key is early trade unless you want to expand into europe (which is pretty hard to hold -- multiple defensive fronts, lower income).
i just put a boat in every sea lane i could and used spy cells to disrupt almohead provinces, distracting them. promptly invaded the big three gold provinces along N. Africa, and had a wicked source of income
the almos beat spain bad, but was at war with the huge egyptian empire, and was getting its butt kicked. i used my spies to great effect and smashed the almohead forces on the iberian pennesula.
im earning ~8000 florin a turn by trading with egypt & my developed provinces. i hold all of the southern territories, am expanded into egypts default territory (the big money makers for them -- palestine...antioch? and something else:P)
all thats left are minor groups like italy, byzantine (oddly enough they are on an island that i cannot land on despite the sea being open and my several ships are alone, no matter what province i attempt to invade from??), sicily...
the germans are alright, english are dead (oops had to take UK, my bad) and most of my provincial holdings are in choke points which allows for maximum defensive ability/expense.
no one but me has a navy, too :-D
Quote Originally posted by tirgor:
the ai dane builds up forces then goes after saxony and seeks to go through that way
considering how weak the danes are at the start this is sucicide (for the ai anyway)so what happens is the ai builds up and then launches attacks against a strong germany which has also been building
if you watch over time you will see saxony change hands quite a few times
unless germany gets ganged up on by the french and italians the dane ai has got no chance
[/QUOTE]
Yes, when the HRE weak the Danes will attack, when the HRE strong the Danes will/(can?) do nothing.
In my game as English the Danes has done only one thing besides sitting there getting bad Vices... That was to take Saxony from the rebels in the HRE Civil War. Besides that, I have not seen a single Longboat (and we are writing 1278 now), but plenty of Viking mercs (I guess if they want to fight they have to become mercs because their king just sits there).
It is sad that my homecountry, while in is only a shadow of its name. Not being as aggressive as they were nor getting Crusades and can still get Excommunicated.
Let them take Sweden and Norway (I took them in 1170, almost 100 years and they don't attack those weak provinces...)!
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Dark Phoenix
09-26-2002, 21:01
I just never understand why they dont expand into Sweden. I dont think it is really economically viable to snatch Norway at the start though normally are carrying huges losses of the garrison which could be better spent upgrading buildings. BTW what I normally do is just bribe Sweden, build enough troops to keep out the HRE then tech up to get ships, then it depends but in my last campaign I went into North-Eastern Europe for the rebels and kicked out the Novogrods. What I do is get a couple of troop producing centres in Denmark and Seden pumping out units to build a stack and then grab a province at first until I have a safe pocket of provinces, you really need some trade going though, were I run into trouble though is when the French and HRE go to war destroying the ports.
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"DP is correct" - Shiro
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We may have years, we may have hours,
but sooner or later, we push up flowers
Beelzebub
09-26-2002, 22:16
The Danes in my game have sweden and norway, and recently they even conquered Northumbria (all of england is rebel, since I killed the king and all his heirs on the fields of Brittany).
Arkatreides
09-26-2002, 23:28
I my game the Danes started invading Sweden in 1280 ... and then got beaten back by the rebels!?!?! LOL
BlackWatch McKenna
09-26-2002, 23:59
HRE/E/E
I've seen the Danes do/try it all.
Prior to the HRE taking over the Danes, the Danes "swarmed" into Sweden and on up into Norway. Then, Sweden rebelled behind them, trapping their King in Norway with a unit or two... Then Norway rebelled, trapping their King inside the castle there.... then the Rebels stormed the castle.
Their new King then took a shot at Saxony, so we annexed all three provinces up there.
Now the HRE is on its way to becoming the foremost Navy in the world. Who would have guessed.
"Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome here today! To this awardceremony. The award this time is Most Worthless AI Faction."
*Applause*
"Thank you... Thank you.
And now... Thank you..."
*Applause finally dies down*
"And now to the Nominees."
*cheers*
"The first nominee is Aragon! Weak faction hemmed in between France and Spain. Often launches the dreaded heir-assault with horredous losses... to themselves. Often they die very ugly, starved to death in their castle by the Almohads."
*Applauses*
"The second nominee is Denmark! Supposedly very aggressive, but can hardly take over neighbouring rebel states of Sweden and Norway, mostly they don't. Picks fights with the strongest faction all the time. Has great potential for trade, but has yet to provide any proof of the theory. Because they normally survive a long time they have a tendency to develop very bad Vices and get lousy heirs.
Mostly dies on the battlefield, but they are not great in battle."
*Cheers and applauses*
"The third and last nominee is Poland! Their position is quite good with several rebelstates nearby, but they have a hard time getting control of them. Often ends in wars with both Hungary and the HRE at the same time. Sometimes they think they can be sneaky and attack a province that seemed unlikely, or a faction that had been their longtime ally. Too bad it always seems to be the strongest faction on the map. Known for doing the dreaded heir-assault as well, but with slightly better results than the Aragonese."
*Audience extatic*
"And the award as Most Worthless AI Faction goes to..."
*Utter silence*
"... Denmark!!!
*Fireworks erupts with a loud explosion*
"For their outstanding pacifism and inability to make a name of themselves they have made a less than significant impact on any of us!"
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
For the record, the Aragonians in my game have become a force to be reconed with. Early on the Sicilians took southern Italy and broke up the papacy. The pope got pissed and called for crusaders to help out. The Aragonians launched a crusade, I didn't notice til it passed through my largest army, then the largest French army, then the largest German army, then the largest Italian army. When it finally got to Sicily it was over 3000 men. They took Sicily with no problem, then counter attacked and took all of Italy except for Rome which the pope owns. In addition to that they recaptured all of Northern Spain from the Alomhads. I'd say, right behind the Egyptians and myself (English) they are the strongest faction.
So Aragon can hold it's own sometimes,
Sepiche
I played the Egyptians and the Danes had Sweden, Norway and the German province bordering them. When I played the English they lost to Germany and Denmark rebelled killing the faction. Weak factions become strong sometimes depending on what the other factions do and what they decide to do.
Yep.
In my last game Danes spent most of their time just sitting around. Then I took Sweden (I was playing Poland BTW) in 1150. On the next year my good ally Danish King attacked me. The result was quite predictable. There are no more Danes in two years.
To show greatness of Danish AI. They even haven't keep after 70 years from the start.
And that is supposed to be MAJOR faction
[This message has been edited by Oracle (edited 09-27-2002).]
KukriKhan
09-27-2002, 19:49
When I played as the Byzantines, and again when I played as the Germans, Denmark was my most steadfast ally, always sending messages of support, but never actually doing anything but staying in Denmark. Kind of like what you guys are saying.
So, since this is a "what if" game, next I chose the Danes, and said: "What if the Vikings never went to sea, but instead conducted a totally land-based slash-conquer-burn campaign. I gotta tell you, it's a ball! I own western Europe (minus Italy, but he's next!) and the middle-east.
Fascinating, watching history change before my eyes.
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https://jimcee.homestead.com/files/bowman2_k_5.gif Kukrikahn is correct.
In my Turkish Campaign, In which I control Egypt to Khazar extended out to the Balkans, The Argonese and the Danes are the two major European Powers, well *were*. Initially what happened is...
I opened by attacking the Egyptians, I wiped them out inside 10 years, from there I began preparing to attack the byzantines. While this was happening, the Sicilians were massing, while the HRE France and England did nothing. The Sicilians finally made their move and wiped out the Papacy, they then eliminated the Italians, and began weakening the French, British and HRE's holdings.
I pushed on into Constantinople, and consolidated myself, however due to being at war with the Sicilians, my trade income was hurting so I had to clear the Sicilians from the Sea. Problem, I could'nt catch ANY of their ships.
Meanwhile, the Argonese allied to the Almohads which wiped out the spanish incredibly quickly were slowly expanding.
The Danes were content to do nothing, and in fact got themselves wiped out by the HRE.
Eventually I began pushing into the Balkans with my elite Jannisary Armies, in an attempt to launch a "ghetto" jihad onto Corsica where all the Sicilian Heirs were located, along with the King.
It bogged down on the isle of Sicily, but now the Almohads were moving against Europe. In the interim, the Sicilians were having rebellions every other year due to my invasion, and the Agronese expanded into these unstable regions.
It then became apparent that the Almohads were going to do my job for me, and eliminate the Sicilians giving me control of the seas. I withdrew and began moving my fleets out and prepared my elite troops for the invasion of the Almohads from Egypt, as well as an amphibious landing in Granada.
The Almos did their job well, and the moment the seas opened for me, I made my move, driving the north African Almohad armies back to morocco, and taking Granada.
About this time, the Danes re-emerged, while the Argonese also began expanding.
While I engaged the Almohads in Morocco from my forces in Granada and suffered a defeat due to an endless stream of fresh troops facing my totally exhausted Jannisary Army, the Danes sprung on the Hapless HRE.
Within 20 years, the Danes had eliminated the HRE and Poles, and were making progress against the Remnent Byzantines and the Novogod Empire, while the Argonese broke their alliance with the Almos and took all of western Europe.
I recovered from my loss in Morocco and took the remainder of Spain, while the Danes have conquered all Central North and Eastern Europe, and have pushing the Argonese back to Britany and the British Isles.
Aside from myself, the Danes ARE the other major power, In truth, I would have no problem crushing them like the puny vikings they are, but I was shocked to see the Danes as WELL as the Argonese make such a strong showing for themselves.
for me the Danes and the Swiss AI's are the dominant western european factions... An the Almohads just sit there and let the Spaniards go through there territory, through Egypt, through Turkey, and up to the Golden Horde.
Cardinal
10-02-2002, 08:09
Lets face it. The danes are doing exactly in this game what they enjoy doing today; sitting in their little orchyard of a country enjoying a "bayer" watching the world go by.
But then, being a Nordic super-power isn't all what is cracked up to be...I should know http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif .
I played Denmark once (in homage to my southern bretheren) and found that it was very easy. Conquor Scandinavia and the Baltic, keep peace with HRE, and then kick some orthodox arse - no excommunication...brilliant http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/cool.gif
I have noticed that the Danes are hindered economically by their tendency for many princes. When I have played the Danes, supporting all my son's knights (seven I believe at one time) slowed my expansion to a craw until my trading income started to kick in. When not playing the Danes, I have noticed that when they do not expand into Sweden or south into Saxony, they too have a great many of princes to support. The princes are great for attacking but too few for holding a province, at least on expert level.
Panzer
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I think that it is much more likely that the reports of flying saucers are the results of the known irrational characteristics of terrestrial intelligence than of the unknown rational efforts of extraterrestrial intelligence.-- Richard Feynman
PanthaPower
10-02-2002, 13:46
In my game on hard with the Spanish the Danish conquered a part of the HRE and even owned Flanders for a few years only to be beaten back by the HRE and France again. So it looks like trhey really do try to expand.
YEah, but they never go for Sweden And Norway, which is just plain daft! Sweden is an excellent province.
psalms_uk
10-02-2002, 16:10
My first Campaign was as The Danes, I took over the usual, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Prussia, ect. So this left me with a Small Empire strecting from Ireland to Russia. Then I started to expand south into Europe, attacking the Polish, I drove them hard, with my Vikings and finally had them down to there last Province, and then they great Poof in Rome said "Stop attcking Catholics!". So I left them alone, but now I had an Empire strecting from Norway to Constantinople. I began to build up the Provinces and then cam the Eygptians! The Byzantines and Turks had been killed off early by each other and finished by the Eygptians.
I went to war with Eygpt a few times and then lost the Campaign when my Computer got a really bad virus and had to be reformatted! grrrrrr http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Anyway, my point is the Danes were really easy to use, the Faction I think is the hardest so far is the Italians.
just give them a little help!
change the startpositions and give them some more buildings and perhaps a few longboats, in my game as the elmo's i did some some danisch priest's and a few longboats, heavent seen their empire yet...
but hey its better then them doing notthing at all...
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Save the whale, Kill a fat chick!
Rosacrux
10-02-2002, 17:42
Quote Originally posted by psalms_uk:
Anyway, my point is the Danes were really easy to use, the Faction I think is the hardest so far is the Italians. [/QUOTE]
The Italians??? Come on, they are the easiest to play in all three eras. Just build up, have good relationships with everyone and earn the trade revenues. And if war comes up... you'll have the mightiest (by far) navy and some nifty units (like Italian infantry and Gothic Knights) to deal with the fools.
Italians? Try Byzantines on high and Late - that's a tough cookie.
Quote Originally posted by Osbot:
About this time, the Danes re-emerged, while the Argonese also began expanding.
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Besides this you said they were powerful.
Not really that strange since a reemerging faction gets lots of good quality troops.
I'm quite sure what the Danes got was far more than they had controlled in the whole time as a starting faction put together.
So now the Danes got the chance they needed to use their EXPANSIONIST trait... now they had the forces to do this.
Normally they don't and that is their problem...
They don't have money for a Keep, no money for troops and certainly no money for ships.
So while the Danish king waits for more money to appear so he can train some troops, his faction just sinks further and further down the drain.
Obviously the Danes need something.
I would be satisfied with more intial troops so they can take over Sweden.
Not like it matters when you play as them, but it certainly matters for the AI.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Speedy Gonzales III
10-07-2002, 00:50
i think ive seen them conquer half of the hre in oen game...
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