About the wedge formation

[Kobal2]

When is it usefull ? It has been told and retold that wedges against spearmen are useless and dangerous, yet with a wedge charge of cavalry against archers, I killed less and had more losses than a "square" charge...

So, when is the wedge usefull ?

(besides, come to think of it, the unit leader has got to be ballsy to order such formation...After all, *he*'s the spearhead, with only two grunts behind him http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif)

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All is fair in love and war.
Well, maybe not in love.

[RabidMonkey]

I have no idea what use the wedge is, I might have used it 2 times playing shogun. But what I would love to see is a unit of heavy knights forming into a wedge and then smashing right through a unit of pesky spearmen......... instead of stopping dead when they hit the front men. i can understand when attacking a massive unit of pikemen that it could be difficult even to get near, But some guys with one handed spears? even if they unhorse a couple of knights the rest of them are going to plow straight itno the unit. Actually what could be very cool for the next Total War game would be chariots, those babys would definatley tear right through a unit and out the other side!

[Hiroshi-O'Duff]

Against spearmen, cavalry will most likely get smacked, especially in wedge. However, I really LOVE wedge against archers. Damn, it mows 'em down.

Duff

[hoof]

Wedges are useful if the enemy is distracted or gets pushed back. I usually hit the regular close formation button right after my wedge hits, thus the center gets the effect of the wedge, while the flanks of the wedge charge out on the formation change order to enage the enemy. If the formation they're going to (which is the one they were in before the wedge order) is particularly wide, this can give the advantage of the wedge with the adgantage of a wrap-around standard strike.

Does it make my men more effective? I don't know. It's really useful for cavalry, as the wedge tends to bend around the poing when changing direction (kind of flowing around a corner with the corner being where the point was on the order change). This is *very* useful for cavalry, as I can charge them parallel to a battle, make them do a 90 degree change very close in, then slam them into the backside of an enemy unit. Regular box formations aren't flexible enough for this. I haven't tried long narrow formations with this technique yet.

[hoof]

Another wedge tactic I've used to mow down lots of archers with cavalry is to have them run to a point beyond the archer (rather than simply double-clicking on them). This prevents the whole formation stalling when the first men engage in combat, which is one of the problems with a wedge.

[This message has been edited by hoof (edited 09-20-2002).]

[Daevyll]

I think having your men in a wege formation increases their attack rating, and lowers their defence rating.
Thus it is useful in any situation where you are more concerned about killing the enemy then suffering losses, or when attacking an enemy with a high defence rating that you would otherwise struggle to hurt (accept extra casualties though).

[Arkatreides]

That's correct. Wedge gives you +3 attack, but also +3 defense.

[Cronopio]

It's also useful if you want to bust through a thinly spread unit to get to a unit of range attackers behind it.

[Xiahou]

Its also useful if you want to get your general killed. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

Seriously, more than half the time when my general charges in with a wedge he dies immediately.

[Kraxis]

Wedge is the weapon to employ when flanking. When flanking the enemy can't respond very well so your losses are low, that fits well with the -3 to defence. But since you kill very fast they will rout soon if your unit is a shockunit (Gallowglass, Ghazi, Highlander, MAA or even Fanatics).

Since Wedge gives 3 to attack the charge is also acordingly raised, so the Wedge charge is tough. It cuts through weak defenders, much so with cavalry with lances.
I have run a unit of 15 Early Royals right through a unit of Peasants... The charge went all the way out on the other side. The Peasants routed at once. I have never been able to do that with Line.

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

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[Yoko Kono]

while the wedge gives a bonus to attacking and a defensive penalty its not worth using
less men in the wedge formation are enganged with the enemy at a single time and often they are fighting two men at once
its far more effective to charge in close formation where the maximum number of men will be brought to the fore
wedges should be improved so the momentum keeps going longer and units should be able to break thru and even penetrate right threw to the rear of enemy formations especially if the enemy are not standing ready to recieve the charge

[solomani]

Out of interest, isnt the wedge a-historical for cavalry. I always thought that the strength of a cavalry charge comes from the straightness of the line (atleast in Napolonics). The only time in history I know of a wedge being used was in desperation when the remaining 300 spartans pushed as a wedge to try and get to Darius (or was it Xerxes?).

[Ulug Beg]

Macedonian cavalry were famouse for fighting in wedge in Ancient times, but the formation is not that common with cavalry in general

[kaevad]

The wedge formation is designed so that you should be able to split the coloum you are attacking in two, making it easier for either flankers of follow up troops to attack. just dont try anything silly like wedging calvary againt spear/pikemen.

[Jagger]

I have found the wedge to be useful in splitting two enemy formations apart by attacking at the seam between the two formations. The wedge will push through the small gap and then if successful, the enemy formations will fall back from each other allowing the wedge formation to push past and through the front line.

Although it doesn't work very well when the two enemy formations are using "hold"

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

The wedge simply brings the greatest pressure to bear on a single point of the enemy formation, making it more likely to break up. As soon as the wedge stops moving forward, it's good to change to "close formation" or change engagement rules to "engage at will."

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The King Who was Thursday

[The Illustrated Man]

For what it's worth, I tested the wedge formation against the standard column using a unit of feudal foot soldiers versus a unit of spearment (no other units on the field).

Turns out that although the foot soldiers lost both times, in the wedge formation they consistently killed 70+ spearmen (albeit suffering more casualties but then again the battle went on longer), compared to about 35-40 kills in standard formation.

Since I found this out, most of my strategies are based around trying to hold up the enemy with half-way decent defensive troops, hitting them in the flank with feudal/chiv. foot soldiers and while all thats going on, get the cavalry in from behind to take out the archers and any fleeing enemy.

When it works it's sweet, but if you're timing is a bit off it can all go terribly pearshaped very quickly (and you also need a good general with no - to morale).

[Inferno]

In Shogun, a wedge formation would cause more damage when charged into a square one, but would also take more losses.

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It's getting warm in here...that must be one hell of an INFERNO!

[marlboro]

Sometimes I use wedge on troops with strong defence / weak attack, in the hope that the enemy will break and flee.

This is usually when I am in a situation of "all or nothing", with the enemy about to break through my flanks and encircle my army.

[TomThumbKOP]

I haven't tried this yet, but this topic gave me an idea. My favorite overall tactic is to isolate one of the enemy's units then fix its position and flank it. In this vein, I think i'll try using a wedge of spears at the enemies front to pin its position then flank it with faster units. The theory is this:
-The spears have a better defense to begin with so the defense hit from the wedge will be somewhat ameliorated.
-The spears have a poor attack so the attack bonus from the wedge will be nice.
-For a foot unit, the spears have a pretty good charge bonus.
-If I keep the spears in hold formation, it should minimize the number of men who are actually in contact with the enemy and are available to be killed.
-When the enemy unit does rout, I will be able to change the spears over to engage at will and they will cover a large front hopefully preventing the enemies escape.

I will try thi out in my first battle when I get home tonight.

[Bishamonten]

I find the wedge useful for moving around
and it seems to work good for the initial
clash but then you must engage at will or go to the square style right away, like in the first 5 seconds or so.
It works good to do some quick damage and maybe to cause a unit to run, but if you stay in wedge formation after the first clash, you usually start to take too much damage.
I don't think the wedge is any good for any units besides cav.

[The Illustrated Man]

Quote Originally posted by Bishamonten:
It works good to do some quick damage and maybe to cause a unit to run, but if you stay in wedge formation after the first clash, you usually start to take too much damage.
I don't think the wedge is any good for any units besides cav.[/QUOTE]

I dunno... going back to the the little test I tried between the feudal men at arms and the spearmen, the wedge formation definitely works well for foot troops like FMAA's (especially when attacking flanks).

I also found that it seems to be better to keep the unit in the wedge formation because after the initial attack, the unit seems to be too much out of shape to realistically re-form into a column.

Horses for courses I suppose.

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers, for he today that sheds his blood with me, shall be my brother be he ne're so vile, this day shall gentle his condition. And Gentlemen in England, now a bed,
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here and hold their Manhoods cheap, whilst any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispines day.

William Shakespeare - Henry V

[sarcastro]

I too ran some tests, charging FMAA in wedge against Feudal Srgnts on Agincourt. For the most part my results were similar to Illustrated Man's: FMAA killed ~70 spearmen before routing. This was better than when left in 4 ranks (40 kills), but not as good as when spread out to 2 ranks(where they consistently beat the spears with around 30 losses). However, twice out of perhaps 10 trials, the wedge struck with such force and went so deep that the formation of the Sargants was basically cut in two. In these cases the FMAA mopped up! I think it had a lot to do with the formation being broken and the spears not getting the bonus for multiple ranks being able to fight, as their formation was totally disorganized.

But yeah, in general I think it's best when flanking and trying to cause a rout via shock. Charging spears head-on is never a great plan with anything in any formation.

[pdoan8]

How about put them in 2 ranks close formation then change to wedge to charge then change back to close formation again. A good hit in the flank may kill up to 10 Feudal Sergeant immediately then change to close formation to attack their flank and rear.

[Jaret]

Another good thing about the wedge is ... It has no flank !! just a back !

Soldiers can fight towards both sides and to the front.

Sometimes I use a wedge of spearmen to hold a flank of mine ... maybe less effective ... but harder to break or flank.

[Yoko Kono]

wedges are actually extremely vulnerable to flanking attacks
they have defensive penalties and as such should never be considered as a defensive formation

[FasT]

im sure Puzz has done some test on this... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Cheetah]

Listed in the TC

[Hakonarson]

Wedges were used by ancient cavalry because they are manouvreable. They had an officer at each corner, and so could retain formation just by turning to face that officer.

There weer also Rhomboids (Diamond-shape) used by some Greek cavalry for the same reason.

Aside from that they had no particular combat efficiency, because horses do not giveweight to each other in a charge - men can form a "scrum" and the rear ranks can push forward with their shields to literally push the enemy out of the way, but horses can't. Rear ranks of horses provide a morale benefit, make it harder for the front ranks to run away, and can fill in gaps and stop the enemy lapping around the front rank riders.

Possibly the thought that they are useful for something comes from some confusion in the meaning of hte latin word "cuneus". This means wedge, but it also means column!

Many translators have chosen to use it as meaning wedge in apparently inappropriate places - eg there are a couple of places in the Pengiuin translation of Livy where Macedonian pike are described as in wedge when it apepars more likely they were in a normal phalanx which might be described as column.

Columns of foot in ancient time of course DID gain fighting power from their depth - either from being able to push the enemy out of the way or, for pike, by presenting several rows of spearpoints.

The final version of "wedge" was a Swedish cavalry formation from the 17th century. At hte front of the "wedge" would be a cornet (junior officer), and his regiment would extend to both sides of him, with each man tucking his leg behind the man to his flank - so each horse towards teh falnk was 5-6 inches behing the one closer to the centre. The regiment would form up in 2 ranks like this.

However the shape of this formation was not important - what was important was the cohesion it had and the denisty of men it provided.

Edited to add....

Come tho think of it perhaps that wasn't the final version - IIRC teh Germans had a formation "Panzer Kriel" - armoured wedge - I recall something like that from descriptions of the Battle of Kursk?? Heavy tanks in the centre with mediums around them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Hakonarson (edited 10-07-2002).]

[DojoRat]

I use a wedge to assault 'open' gates on fortresses. Once I make contact I switch to a closed formation. I find that this breaks the blocking unit faster and though your unit takes more damage once you're 'in' the battle is essentially over.

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He moves, you move first.

[This message has been edited by DojoRat (edited 10-07-2002).]

[Didz]

Quote Originally posted by RabidMonkey:
Actually what could be very cool for the next Total War game would be chariots, those babys would definatley tear right through a unit and out the other side![/QUOTE]

Hi Rabid,

I'm curious what evidence you have for the above statement as I have a feeling you might be in for a disappointement.

Recent historical evidence including eyewitness accounts attest to the fact that chariots never closed with an enemy formation at all.

In fact most nations used them more like modern APC's. They would rush forward carrying additional javelin men or archers would swing round just ahead of the enemy formation and disgourge their passengers. The dismounted passengers would then proceed to throw their javelins into the enemy formation including the extra ammo stored on the chariot and would then jump back aboard to be withdrawn and replenished.

Meanwhile if the enemy got fed-up and tried to rush their opponents the skirmsihers would simply leap onto the chariot and be carried rapidly out of hards way. No doubt giving their opponents a suitable 'two finger salute' or whatever the ancient equivalent was in the process.

The film versions of chariots with scythes smashing through enemy formations and chariots or horse archers galloping up and down like indians round a cowboy wagon train have been largely discounted as Hollywood inventions.

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Didz
Fortis balore et armis