View Full Version : lib Templar charge value
Mori Gabriel Syme
09-16-2002, 09:13
I spent a good bit of time at Total War Assembly planning the constitution of my defensive & offensive armies & noticed a strange thing. The value set for the charge bonus for Knights Templar is the lowest of any cavalry the English can have.
This doesn't seem right. There are many incidents in the history of the Crusader kingdoms in which the Templar charge turned the tide of battle or sealed the victory. In fact, Saladin himself was almost killed at the battle of Montgisa (sp?) by a well-timed charge of the Templars; he escaped by throwing his mailshirt so that he could run faster, jumping on a racing camel, & fleeing with a few men, but his army at that battle was destroyed.
Contemporary commentators tell us that the Templars were the most disciplined troops on the field. Their rule forbade seeking individual glory. As a result, they fought as a unit, including making a charge; such a coordinated charge was devastating.
One could argue that the other numbers are so good, that this would make them too strong. CA showed willingness to let horse archers outrun everyone because it was true; Templars were so feared that after one battle, Saladin, rather than ransom them to face them in the field, purchased all Templar prisoners & had them executed, holy men & theologians lining up for the honor of personally dispatching, under controlled circumstances, such terrifying warriors.
And if they appeal to the Battle of Hattin, the problem was the timing of the charge, not the technique of the Templars. Any technique used at the wrong time is ineffective.
The King who was Thursday
SKD_Navy
09-16-2002, 09:29
really! wow, I didnt know that.
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deejayvee
09-16-2002, 10:39
Someone asked the devs this and it turns out that because the artists wanted some variety they drew the Templars without a lance, hence less of a charge bonus.
This, to me, is silly but other than modding what can you do?
The worst part is though that, the Templar charge is 4, the same as... the terrifying, utterly deadly and scary... Peasants!!!!
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Feel free to correct me if Im wrong...
But isnt the charge value a charge bonus? I thought it got added to their attack value for the duration of the charge. I only mention that because even though peasants and templars have the same charge rating, Templars still obviously hold the advantage.
Yes, longjohn made a big fool of me in the thread of difference of the Orders. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
At least it was him, and not some newbie who had just noticed this in battle. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
But it does make sense that it is a bonus, I wondered long how a unit could actually charge at least somewhat well with a charge of 0. I thought it was a ranking of charges, where a charge of 6 was this much or that much.
I would actually like for charges to be shown in the F1 screen.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Mori Gabriel Syme
09-17-2002, 01:14
Yes, I was making the mistake of considering the charge bonus to be like a charge ranking. It still seems rather low. & while the Knights Templar have the best statistics of English cavalry in the Early period, other Military Orders have the same states but with a charge bonus of 8. While I don't know much about the Knights of Santiago or the Teutonic Knights, I'm sure that Templar troops were equal & probably actually superior to Hospitallers.
I'd be interested to know the developers reasons for the current values.
The King who was Thursday
Knights Templar were THE best of the military orders. The hype about them is sometimes false but they were still THE best there were.
Up the charge!!!
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If the world were a cake I would have ruined my appetite eating it
Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
http://www.boomspeed.com/luftwaffle/NewSig2.jpg
The other three Orders have 8 in Charge.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
It does seem odd that the Templars have a lesser charge.
In all the battles against the Mongols in Poland and Hungary, the Templars always fought to the last man. Truly a fierce and disciplined group of warriors.
Lol, feel the hype http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Historically there is no real comparision between military religious orders so noone can say who was the best. The Hospitallers were as good as the Templars. Vice-versa. I don't know why the Templars have less charge than the other military orders. All I know is that they cost 75 florins more and they're much more valuable in MP play than other military orders.
The hype about the Templars comes because they're in part English. And English are best at everything. So the Templars are the best.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
Cool, it seems that there are a fair few people posting here that care about this subject. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Here are two previous threads where the devs have been good enough to give us feed back on this question (in case anyone missed them and is interested).
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001361.html
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001603.html
While i can understand that they have to provide a game that appeals to a greater market than just history nerds like myself, it would be nice if the Templars had a decent charge.
Please Gil/ECS/Longjohn if you have time (& i know you've got lots to do), could you please give us Templars with a lance & a decent charge- That way both the people that judge units visually, & the history buffs will be happy!
*Gets down on knees*
Please? I'm sure it wouldnt take long for gentlemen of your talents to perform such a minor seeming change! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
It seems you would bring (even more) joy to the lives of many people!
oh well, nuff grovelling, i've tried my best
*stands back up and dusts down jeans*
Jeez, its dusty down there, doesnt anyone ever hoover this forum? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by Wart (edited 09-16-2002).]
Well it's a matter of...gameplay I think.
I really think the handicap of the Templars is a well thought move. They cost significantly (75 florins) less than the other Knights. And the charge bonus is only -4 less than the other knights, in most situations that is really negligble. It won't make a Hospitaller an invincible killing machine and a Templar a tramp. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif But in the meantime the Templar costs 75 less...hmm...I would use it for multiplayer rather than other Knights!!! Get my point?
Still though, no mounted knight in the game is really worth buying for MP. Cost too much for their real power on the battlefield when faced with 3/4 of infantry that are good vs cavs and can be made valour4 very cheaply. An observation made by many that is worth reviewing in a unitbalancing patch.
Tera.
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 09-16-2002).]
Tera,
I agree that from the multiplyer perspective the lower charge on the Templar is compensated by the lower cost, and the standard 875 florin mounted knight is available anyway. However, the game makes the Templar look like an inferior unit which doesn't make sense in the context of the single campaign. You don't have to do much historical reading to find out how effective Templar's were in combat. You could leave the charge at 4 but give them +1 attack and raise the cost an appropriate amount. That would give them an edge in melee to satisfy their legendary status and would also satisfy the artist's depiction of them without the lance.
MajorPain
09-17-2002, 08:15
Maybe they made them that way so the game wouldnt have a "super" unit like MI had/have with their "super" ashis.
BTW, when in the game can u buy/hire the Templar knights? I just finished a campain where I was the english faction. And I couldnt buy/hire them, not even with a castle almost fully upgraded.
No you can't buy them, you need a Crusade.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
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