Crusader knights could be more individualistic...no?

[+DOC+]

I often think it would be nice if the crusader knights had been given slightly more variation in their stats just to give a more specialised and individual feel to each of the catholic countries' crusades.

For instance, as they stand they are:
8 char, 5 att, 5 def, 7 arm, 8 morale (with the Templar only having 4 char!).

They could be, for example:
Templar 8, 6, 5, 7, 8
Teutonic 8, 5, 6, 7, 8
Santiago 10, 5, 5, 7, 8
Hospitaller 8, 5, 5, 9, 8

That would sure give them a specialised feel! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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=MizuDoc Otomo=

[Arkatreides]

I agree, but leave the templar at char 4 (up another stats) as they are not using lances.

[Kraxis]

But that was only because the artists thought they should not use lances... Stupid artists.
I would sat the super Elite status should have some impact here. Let them get at least 6 in charge, or else their charge is the same as Peasants and less than Fanatics.

I agree that the Order units need to be a little different. It would be fun.

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Arkatreides]

Yeah, true that is a bit silly ... clearly anything on horseback has an increased charge ... if nothing else you can trample down the enemy.

[Kraxis]

Yes, I found it very silly that if I charged them into each other, only the higher defensive value of the Templars would keep them from getting as high losses.

A knight, even if only armed with a sword hits much harder than an unarmoured footpeasant...

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Wart]

Ahh, my pet peeve (we're all allowed one, right? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif )

The arguement that the graphic shows them using a sword just doesnt convince me, historically they used a lance/sword combo (like other knights of the period).
If we're gonna go by what the piccys show then surely all the other orders should have a greatly reduced attack stat.
Go on, you try using a chivalric lance, one handed, as a melee weapon! go on, try it, what ya gonna do, stab the guy behind the one whos fighting you?
If reasoning like 'the pictures got weapon-x' is gonna be applied, please, at least apply it equally! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
(Sorry to say it again, but since the subject came up...)

[Kraxis]

Well, Wart my friend (its me Tarrak), I think the argument is that a lance hits a bit better than a sword. True.
But since the game game cope with broken lances then the knights fight on with lances whole, while they actually use swords.

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Wart]

Hi Kraxis (yeah, figured out who you were a while back) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I understand that a lance will hit harder in a charge, but my arguements are:
1) Historically they all used lance to charge, then sword for close combat, on this basis they should have equal stats
or
2) If one order has a lower charge because their sprite shows them with sword not lance, then surely by the same logic, the other orders who are shown with a lance should have a dire non-charge attack stat.
I know that they would have been using a sword really, but if a units abilities are gonna be defined by their sprite rather than the history, shouldnt it consistently be done this way?
At the end of the day its easy enough to mod, but that means file swapping to do MP, & that (as you know) is just hassle!

[Puzz3D]

It is a bit funny to watch the lance armed cavalry trying to stab at footmen in close hth combat. Actually, the horsemen can drop the lance. You see it happen just as he dies. You'd need a whole new set of sprites, but the men could drop the lance and switch to a sword. I do think charge should be higher on these cav due to the momentum they would build up in a charge. It isn't just the velocity that matters. It's mass * velocity that determines the force. In WE/MI, we had a charge value of 15 on the YC, and it worked well within the combat system which cuts off at +20 combat advantage.

Doc,

At first I though some variety in the elite heavy cav stats would be nice, but how would you justify that? It seems to me they would all have had access to the same type and quality equipment.

[longjohn2]

The different charge factors for lance and swords is for internal game consistancy. It's so that the 95% of players who've never heard of the knights Templar can just learn the simple rule that guys with long lances charge harder than guys without.
The Templars still charge pretty hard though. The charge factor is added to the basic attack factor, and they still get all the momentum advantages that other cavalry get, so any suggestion that they charge less hard than peasants is just wrong.

None of you have noticed, but the teutonic knights are different from the other order knights, in that they are uncontolled, and may charge without orders.

[Puzz3D]

Actually LongJohn I have had my heavy cav general go charging off on his own several times, and I had been taking a Knights Templar as general all the time up until recently. I don't think I've seen it happen since I switched to a lesser cav for the general. I've done that because I've dropped the florins down to 8K or less per player.

As it is, when you charge with cav into the rear of an enemy unit that's already engaged you do enough damage to rout that unit almost every time. That's the key. If the enemy unit routs, then it was worth all the effort to get the cav in position to make the rear attack.

[Kraxis]

Thanks for clearing that Longjohn, and tanks for making me look like a fool. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Now I have to go and correct my post in another thread. Damn! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Still it would be nice that the Orders were a little more different that they are now. I understand it can be a tough and not very worthwhile job (WTF my Teutonics lost to his Hospitallers), but all in all I think it would give a sense of difference.

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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Vanya]

GAH!

Vanya has seen His peasants charge home without orders too... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

GAH!


[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 09-16-2002).]

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

I think I understand your frustration, longjohn2, but the 5% (actually that seems a bit low) who are familiar with the Knights Templar believe them to be the superior order. Not only did their charge frequently turn the battle, but they also were usually if possible the last to retreat from battle, even after the Hospitalers. The King of Castille-Leon asked for Templars to be sent to the Iberian peninsula to help fight the Almohads because of the order's reputation in combat, & only later did his heirs prefer the Hospital because it was more malleable to their wills. I'm glad the Templars don't charge without orders because they were highly disciplined on the field.

I understand that actually giving a unit the stats which the Knights Templar would have based on history would be a serious problem for balancing gameplay. Historically, they were usually outnumbered, but a good strategist playing the game could overcome that & roll over the enemy. I think +DOC+'s stats given at the beginning of this post were pretty good, though I would increase either the Melee or the Morale by one more.

I suppose one way to handle the issue would be to make them really powerful, but then they become unavailable after 1307. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Once more into the breach, dear friends; once more consign their parts most private to a Rutland tree! & men in London, still a-bed, shall think themselves accursed they were not here & hold their manhood cheap while others speak who fought with us on Ralph the Liar's Day!
--Richard III
The Black Adder: Ep. 1-The Foretelling

[Cheetah]

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