View Full Version : lib Kerns
I have not really used this unit before. But last night as the English I had a serious attempt by the Sicilians raise my besieging forces in Naples. To make a long story short they had stabbed me in the back and their fleet cut off Italy from the bulk of my forces in Palestine, Spain and England. All I had in Naples was 3oo Feudal Sergeants, 360 Kerns, and 40 Hobilars. They came to break the siege with 80 Feudal Knights, 420 Feudal Men-at-Arms, 120 Archers, and 360 Urban Militia. I did not have anywhere to go and I figured I was toast. In any event I put my forces in a tight formation with 180 Kerns skirmishing in front and 180 in reserve. I advanced on the enemy. The Kerns killed 50 archers in one combined salvo of Javelins! The unit broke and ran. The next salvo they nailed 30 archers, again broke and ran. The next two salvo they managed to break an Urban Militia unit and a Man at Arms - inflicting close to 100 casualties. I brought them back to the flanks and moved my Reserve Kerns out front. Again the they broke two more Men at Arms Units and decimated one of the Feudal Knights Units. The Knights charged my formation but I was able to hold them off with the Feudal Sergeants while my Kerns flanked them and send them packing. I then advanced on the main line and locked it up. I used the Kerns for flank attacks and was able to break the enemy and routed them from the field. I lost alot of Kerns (but hey they are cheap), but I won the battle - my losses around 250 men (mostly Kerns), the Sicilians 600+. Anybody else have this experience? Needless to say I will be adding them to my armies from now on.
Couscous
09-18-2002, 23:32
Having routed kerns so easily when attacking Ireland, I never got around to using them myself. However, I think I shall have to go and try some now. Your story has impressed http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
kerns, highland clansmen and woodsmen are all low lvl units that get slaughtered if unsupported (head on fights)
as long as your using em to flank attack they will usually break any engaged unit when they charge (except the real heavily armoured stuff)
usefulness goes down over time but great for early expansion (even useful for peasant based early armies as they often butcher whatever the peasants engage before the peasant units break)
kerns and woodsmen are pretty effective as long as you dont sling em head on into units
providing you use em for flank attacks they will pretty much break any engaged unit they charge
a unit of peasants supported by a unit of kerns or woodsmen will typically break spearmen in my experience during early expansion
Enigma, how did you get close enough to throw the javelins at the Archers? Their range is within the Skirmish range, so the Archers should have Skirmished away.
And how did you manage to throw that many javelins at the MAA and knights. They must have advanced on you.
I ask this because I have had big trouble in fielding javelin units, Kerns mostly (they do actually have a rather nice attack so their picture is fitting).
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Mithrandir
09-19-2002, 02:03
I've found Woodsmen, very effective ,only 75 florins and they're a good unit in the beginning... I'm playing danes, and there's one unit I adore... the vikings!
I've got Feudal knights now, but I still train mostly vikings (they're inmediately available) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif, definately strong and cheap units http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif.
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Krax, That is what is puzzling. The Archers were firing on my Feudal Sergeants and were staying in place. I am not sure if they recognized the threat of the Kerns. Also the other basic infantry units were holding in place and the Feudal Knights were manuevering to flank me, but they never charged. After the Archers were broken the other Men at Arms/Urban Militia started to advance. By this time the first group was out of ammo and the second line advanced. They skirmished the advancing Men at Arms and once out of ammo I moved them back behind the Feudal Sergeants. The whole group advanced and the rest was history. This was on Hard, but I have not had the AI act so stupidly before. I plan on using them in battle again tonight to see if I get a similar performance. It was kind of cool to zoom in and watch the javelins just blow holes in the enemy ranks.
I haven't used Kerns but have used the Almohed javelin infantry units.
I use them as second line infantry. I have them support the main line once melee begins by putting them on hold and hurling their javelins into the melee. They get very good kill rates against armored units because the javelins are armor piercing.
They usually have very good kill ratios.
It is like having a unit and a half on your front line because the frontline melee unit is killing the enemy and the javelin unit is killing the enemy as well.
I really like Javelin infantry.
I have tried to do what Jagger does, but the Kerns tend to kill too many of my own troops if they are behind the melee line.
So I have tried to move them to the flanks of the fight, but normally the enemy outnumbers me and I get a unit of knights down my throat if I attempt that.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
I wish I had saved the battle, I always intend too and then just miss it. I am going to experiment with them some more. I have quite a few as garrison troops because they are so cheap. They die easily, but they did the job in this one battle. I am also going to hire some Almughavars and see how they work out.
One thing that reduce javelins killing your own troops is too jam the javelin troops as close behind the supported unit as possible. The closer range should increase the accuracy.
During a melee, how can you tell if your own troops are being hit by the javelins? I look at total kills by the javelin troops to get an idea of their effectiveness. I can also tell to a certain extent by a sudden drop of 5 or 9 enemy soldiers after the javelins hit if and when I have my cursor over the enemy unit. I haven't really watched to see if my own troops are being hit.
You get that blinking 'red arrows' over your crossed swords. That gives a -2 to morale in the fight, not really good as it can hurt plenty if your men are Moraleweak, but staunch defenders (like spears).
I guess I have to try more.
Almughavars are simply great if you look at their stats: Fast, very good charge (6), nice attack (3), anti cav 1/4 like spears, staunch Morale (8) and of course their javelins. But they are listed as costing 400 florins, which would be much more in the Inns (which oddly enough is the only place to hire them, though I have yet to see them, or else I would have hired them).
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Well was gone for a short business trip. I was trying to buy some Almughavars, I think you need to do in Aragon. But I had a Civil War and lost the Aragon province, just got it back late last night. I did try another battle with the Kerns and did not have as good a showing, but I was able to inflict 40 casualties and break a Men at Arms unit with two units of Kerns. Also it caused the rebel scum to charge into my trap.
I've found Kerns very useful when defending against equal or superior numbers - when you can't commit your troops to flanking attacks on the enemy's centre, in case they in turn get flanked by the enemy's reserves, just hold up their centre with spearmen, and then lob javelins at them over the heads of your spearmen - always seems to work a treat for me! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The problem with javelin units as I see it is that in a normal battle, you have to babysit them in order to have them be effective.
But they have a very limited ammo, so you don't have to do it for long. Placed directly behind you lines on engage/fire at will, they are extremelly effective against anybody who comes close.
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