View Full Version : lib Byzantine Archers
RealWarSucks
09-27-2002, 04:51
Just started playing as the Byzantine empire. I've been trying to figure out what missile units to use. I have been splitting between Trebizond Archers and Horse Archers. Horse Archers are annoying me, they are ok for harrassing away units but don't seem to really do much damage. The trebazoids seem to do a little bit better but you lose the speed and mobility. Looking at the stats all I see is that Trebs are better in melee and have higher morale. Curious what other people do. Also, it's been an adjustment getting used to being attacked by mounted archers. The only thing that's keeping me producing the horse archers is that I am often attacked by them and without the ability to build much cavalry I use my horse archers to keep my enemies horse archers at bay.
Any other byz emperors tell me which type of missile units they rely on as well as the best tactics for dealing with enemy horse archers?
Thanks, my first post, but I've been reading this board for the last two days and it's reinforced my opinion of how fun this game really is.
Galestrum
09-27-2002, 05:03
well, i have reconstituted "my legions" which consist of (4) spearmen (6) Byz Infantry (4) trebizond archers and (2-3) mixed cavalry
deploy your archers in front of your spearmen and concentrate all archer fire on their horse archers
trebizond archers have better range and effectiveness reducing enemy horse to nothing fairly easily
hire some merc hobilars or alan cavalry to chase down what horse archers are left
On normal settings I can only field 3, 100 units such as Byz ifantry if I want to have a full complement of 16 units ,so I go something like this
3 byz inf
4 treb archer
4 vangarion
1 kata
2 byz cavalry(archer come medium/light cav)
2 poly's? cav
After reading a post by MajorPain in another thread it appears that I could field more than 3 100 units if I wanted 2 ,its just that u can not stack them.Learn somthing new each day.
[This message has been edited by Saki (edited 09-27-2002).]
1) Bribe Kharzaria and get Steppe Cavalry - they eat horsearchers for breakfast
2) Arbalests outrange HA and tear them up also. They are needed for anyone fighting Muslim armies since they always have some many HA.
3) Byzant cav are great too - HA, Med Cav in one.
Grifman
RealWarSucks
09-27-2002, 11:40
Thanks, that helped. Bribing for Kazar is key.
Is there any way to force missile units like byzantine cavalry to melee?
Hold alt and left click on the enemy.
Do you mean you use horse archers of Byzantine cavalry? because Byzantine cavalry are my 3rd Favourite kind of Horse archer... (behind Boyars and Mamluk HA),
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Alba Gu Bragh
for missile, I use trebiz produced in Trebiz (+1) for early till late, and progressively swich to my beloved pavise (especially for defensive battles)
I'm not a fan of Biz cavalery, they lack punch as horse archer (but they all do) and are too weak as medium cav. I much prefer a combination of steppe cav (kasar is indeed key) and allagion, which do extremely well as your standard medium cav (better arour charge and melee than biz cav, plus double honour)
Rosacrux
09-27-2002, 15:44
Byz cavalry is extremely versatile and opens new strategic options - it helps you to save on both Allagion and Horse archers because you got a 2 in 1 unit there.
True, they don't have the charge of the P.A. but they are averagely better as horse archers than most other and can perform more than one duty.
Plus, they come pretty much earlier than P.A. and thus have a long lifespan.
Pavise arbs... yes, to defend and hold. Try to go on the offensive with those guys... try the "lure them off that hill" tactic with pavise http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
My normal Byzantine army almosgt always included three Trebizond Archers and three Byzantine Cavalry.
Compared to Mamluke HA the Byzantine Cavalry has an advantage of 2 in defence and 1 in armour, so don't be afraid of meeting them in melee, they should suffer more in a arrow duel and in melee.
Compared with the Pronoiai Allagion it is clear they can't face them head on, but then again the PA is equivalent to the Feudal Knights, which is Heavy Cav. But don't be afraid to fight Steppe Cavalry, Saharan Cavalry or Alans head on, Steppe and Alan might give some intial losses due to their good charge but then they should fall rather quickly.
Against infantry the Byz Cav is great for skirmishing until they have depleted their ammo. By then they would normally be in the rear or side of the enemy, then use them as a fighter against non-spear units.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Wolfgrin
09-27-2002, 19:51
Trebizond archers (from Trebizond for the +1) until you can build arbelesters. To me, they are the best all-round missile unit in the game: long range, good punch, lots of ammo, decent armor. Pavise arbs are just too slow.
A typical early army for me:
3 Treb archers
3 Spearmen for them to hide behind
2 Byz inf, one for each flank
1 Varangian Guard to shore up the center
4 Kataphractoi
2 Byz Cav
1 Command unit
I decimated a Mongol army twice my size with this setup. IMHO, kats rock and roll.
For later army, substitute Swiss Armored Pike for spearmen, arbelests for archers and Pro-Als for Byz Cav. I'm murdering Almohads with this config right now.
Wolfgrin, you have to understand that soon you can't train Swiss units anymore. It is a bug that allow all to train them. The patch is going to address this.
So only Switzerland will be able to produce them.
I think you have to rethink your strategy. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
But don't worry too much as buildings will now give their respective units the correct Valour when produced. So Trebz. can be produced at Valour 4, quite good compared to the Valour 1 Arbs (and V0 Pavise Arbs) from the same facility.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Wolfgrin
09-27-2002, 20:26
Hmmm, no Swiss pike. That blows. The Byz get no decent spear units then. On the tech-tree, it shows the Swiss pike to be a Common unit (ie, not limited to one religion or nation), but it has the Switzerland map next to it. Does this mean you can get them only if you own Switzerland?
Yoko Kono
09-28-2002, 01:26
i think they are supposed to be swiss only like the way highlanders are scottish only but in practise this aint so
solypsist
09-28-2002, 02:43
you need to control Switzerland to have the Swiss pike.
On EARLY, byz is by far the easiest faction to win with, and by far the strongest faction in the game.
-Byzantine infantry and trebzoid archers dominate the early game, and both units stay useful for at least 100 turns or so, maybe more?
-They get insanely powerful princes, lots of em.
-They have the only highly-developed province in the game. You can rush all kinds of units within the first 20 turns that other factions wont see for 60-80 turns.
-Only pissant novgorod shares your religion, so if you mass produce priests and convert the whole map (not hard at all), global conquest is a cakewalk. You could probably destroy everyone with orthodox rebellions alone.
-centrally situated to expand in any direction you choose
-theyre purple, like BARNEY, and they can produce BARNEY units which act like geishas and 'love' you to death.
Quote Originally posted by solypsist:
you need to control Switzerland to have the Swiss pike.[/QUOTE]
Yup, at least when the patch is out. This of course leaves the Byzantines very weak in the anti-cav department later, but as we all know Valour 4-6 Spears are not bad at all against even the best cav.
I would, though, not mind the Byzantines getting Pikes.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
I think most nations were supposed to get the normal Pikeman ... the Swiss Pikemans are indeed just a bug ... and Yes, enemy cav is what worries Byzantines most, even in the early game, since most of your own Cav is rather slow. Kath rock none the less ... I just love em.
Well the Byz don't get Pikes at all... Just refer to your techtree and you will see it is Catholics and the Russians.
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
I think the Byzantines should get something like the leigons (no, not the infantry they already get), tight formations, not neccesarily with an advantage against cavalry, but certainly not easy to ride all over...
however, i dont see this as being a patchable thing, so i say give em pikes, or give their current infantry spears... its all good.
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Stu35s MTW Site - Hints,Lists,Facts,And Porn (http://www.angelfire.com/games4/mtw) (one of those is a lie)
http://www.geocities.com/wolflord_uk/stu35
Alba Gu Bragh
I think the game leaves the Byzants as too static. Yeah, the Empire fell and atrophied, but not necessarily in MY game. I agree that they should not get feudal or chivalric or knight units - that was not a part of Byzantine culture. However, I see no reason for them not to get pikemen or halberdiers - surely they would be aware of these developments and use them, just as they can get handgunners/arquebusiers and artillery.
Grifman
"buildings will now give their respective units the correct Valour when produced. So Trebz. can be produced at Valour 4, quite good compared to the Valour 1 Arbs (and V0 Pavise Arbs) from the same facility."
Kraxis, what do you refer to?
What I refer to? Do you mean where I have it from?
Well, I got it from the devs as they posted about the SP changes.
You do know that the Valours gained from buildings can be somewhat erratic, don't you? I mean Valour 2 Feudal Sergeants right out of Spearmans Workshop, even Spearmen should only get Valour 1.
And to use the Trebizond Archers (I like to call them Trebz.) again they are only Valour 2 from a Master Bowyer (or so I hear, but I know they are only V1 at Guild)at the moment, while they should be Valour 4.
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BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
MajorFreak
10-05-2002, 02:33
as for my strategic preferences? 200 spears, 200 Byz Infantry, 60 Varangian guards, 240 trebizond archers, 120 pavise arbalesters, 80 Byz Cavalry, 40 kataphrakoi (general/king/prince), and usually 12 naptha to round off.
CAN'T WAIT TILL PATCH! Though i doubt any of our savegames will work, i'm just dying to see replays that show reinforcements. weeeeeeee. (and i do HATE that mobile blockade bug)
Pragmatic
10-05-2002, 05:41
Just want to point out, if you're building an army stack, and want to use Prov. Allagon (or whatever those cavalry are called), look at Nicaea. Nicaea gives a +1 valor to Prov. Allagon.
Constantinople: Kataphraktoi
Trebizond: Trebizond Archers
Nicaea: Prov. Allagon
And, in the future, if you want a bonus for your Gungalleys, take Aragon.
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