Byzantine dilemma

[MajorFreak]

hmmmmm...i can't decide which is better. Bulgarian Brigands or Trebizond Archers?code:
Unit Type Charge Melee Defense Armour Honour
BB 1 2 0 2 0
TA 1 3 -2 1 2

Urban Militia 4 2 -1 1 0
Woodsman 8 1 -1 2 -2
Spearman 5 -1 -1 1 0
Byz Inf 3 2 2 3 0
Varangian 4 4 5 4 6 (elite)[/QUOTE] Quote Armour is already included in the defence factor. In fact the defence factor is mainly based on the unit's armour, but can be modified for training, weapon type, and mode of fighting.
~longjohn2 (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001877.html)[/QUOTE]
Anyone up for a shot at recommending either, or? (please no, "both/rtfm" answers)

[Yoko Kono]

it depends what you use them for really
the BB`s are much faster and are best used as a screen in an attacking army IMO (altho byz cav arguably are more useful here) while trebs i feel are better suited to a defensive role
generally tho its a lot easier to get a hold of the trebs and they form the backbone of my byz armies along with the byz inf
i rarely build BB`s build do occasionally hire them as mercs when i go on the offensive

[Spino]

Stick with Trebizond Archers, especially those trained in... Trebizond! TAs are better because of their lower maintenance cost and are less likely to turn tail in battle. They also make for better generals & governors in backwater provinces.

Because of their Defense rating Bulgarian Brigands may be better suited for skirmishing far in advance of your line but they don't fight as well as TAs. Naturally if the enemy has any sort of light cavalry then such a tactic becomes folly.

Even if TAs were worse Melee fighters than BBs I would still recommend them. The only time you should consider using archers for melee is when you need to chase down an enemy army in full retreat.

[Grifman]

The problem is these stats are only melee related, which really is almost irrelevant. These guys are archers, first and foremost - what you really need is range, rate of fire, and missile damage.

Grifman

[MajorFreak]

eh? I tend not to put stock in arrow ballistic geekdom. If it shoots projectiles it'll either hit it's target or not, and i'd take crossbowmen when i want to hit moving targets...Unfortunately, once melee is upon your spearmen you need some backup infantry or else your spearmen's backs turn into pincushions.

*shrug*

I usually have a row of arbalesters so i can charge in my trebizond archers (usually when needed to get enemy to finally rout, so my byz cav can run them down like the VIPPED DOGS they are!)flankers? byz cav all the way...takes down rear echelon mofos (REMFs) like nobody's biz[/list]

[andrewt]

Brigands are faster and have 4/8 support cost per unit compared to 7/8 for trebizond archers. I think you should start replacing trebizond archers with brigands. While trebizond archers are better at attacking flanks after they run out of armors, brigands are less likely to lose units when an enemy manages to get close enough to attack them on melee, which negates their lower morale. Their better armor also means better defense against arrow fire.

Bulgaria, I think, has a bonus to brigands. Of course, brigands aren't that different from trebizond archers to warrant getting a master bowyer unless you have lots of money. Even then, I'd stick with arbalests.

[MajorFreak]

you know, once the patch fixes the darned honour (ooops...valour) factor, i'll bet 0 valour BB's will be less attractive than 3 valour TA's. hmmmmm? (though archers rack up those VP's super fast)

[Grifman]

Varangian Guards are 4 attack, 5 defense, valor 5. So does that mean they get a bonus of +5 attack, +5 defense, +10 morale, so that they are really +9 attack, +10 defense?

I'm just not clear on what modifiers act when? It also seems strange to have a separate armor factor when it is already included in the defense factor.

Grifman

Never mind this, I've finally figured it out.

Grifman

[This message has been edited by Grifman (edited 10-07-2002).]

[Cheetah]

Listed in the TC

[Kraxis]

Quote Originally posted by Grifman:
Varangian Guards are 4 attack, 5 defense, valor 5. So does that mean they get a bonus of +5 attack, +5 defense, +10 morale, so that they are really +9 attack, +10 defense?
[/QUOTE]


No, it says Honour, which means Morale. It is that last row you are talking about right?

About Trebizond Archers vs Bulgarian Brigands.
Well, Byzantine Cavalry do what the BB do but better. The BB are produces from a Master building meaning they are top tech, but their stats are certainly not like that. They are more at the TA's level, and personally not even as good due to the weaker attack and they are not better in an archer vs archer duel due to the TA having shields.
The weak BB morale makes them quite bad at skirmishing where you often get enemies at the side, while the TA do their job perfectly.
The TA is not supposed to be a frontline fighter but then again there is seldomly an opening where you would charge out the TA so flanking is their job. The BB is simply outperformed there.
The larger footprint (staggered line) of the BB also makes them unsuitable for linedefense as the TA has a much smaller footprint.

Basically the BB are like Desert Archers (fast and not really suited for melee), but more expensive and higher up the tech.

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