View Full Version : lib Knights Templar
I am a bit annoyed by the fact that Knight Templar has worst charge (5 vs 8) than the Chivalric Knight (which has same stats as Hospitaler or Teutonic Knights) while only 50 bucks cheaper (less than 10%).
And I have been parading around with Knight Templar (as French) for so long, (thinking they are having same stats).
The Lancer defense stats are nice though. For 150 bucks, you have 7 vs 5 def and 9 vs 7 armour. Can't buy any upgrade for 150 bucks.
Annie
MonkeyMan
12-03-2002, 01:12
I would have prefered to see the crusade knights with slightly different stats for the same price. I gave templars +2 to attack and equaled up the price in my SP game, it seems a bit unfair to mark them out as lesser crudading knights. I think the crusading knights could be made much more interesting giving them each 1 point strength and weakness over the more standard chivalric knights.
deejayvee
12-03-2002, 07:07
Apparently the charge for the Templars stems from the fact that the artists drew them without Lances.
Once again, I'd like to question why in the hell are these sort of things being decided by artists? CA should have gone for the historically accurate option in this case.
And I thought French Cavalry (not their commanders) are the best at the time. Many historians believe so. I read in many place that the French army was so confident at Agincourt to win, that's why they are so careless. They have more knights and they have the Genoese Crossbowmen (regarded as the best crossbow Mercenaries at the time; forget about the Genoese sailors of the game). That's why English victory (the effectiveness of longbows) was such a big surprise and hence entered History as one of the most famous victory.
In the game, the French Cavalry is a second class one ;(
Annie
ps.: perhaps to balance out the SP game where France has good position to win, despite being sandwiched between England and Germany. But I am http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif on the same.
Maybe there should be a crusader knight unit with better melee than charge, just for balance. Templars where much more famous for their individual combat abiities rather than their combined group combat ability. If there should be one it should be Templars.
The Last Emperor
12-03-2002, 11:53
They are the most under-rated knights in the game although they are one of the crusading knights. They get beaten off quite easily by any other knights in the game and aren't that powerful charging into infantry units compared to other heavy cavalry units. At least give them a bonus in skirmishing like ktonos suggested since they are reknown for their individual fighting skills.
Historically the Templars were more renowned for arrogantly storming into an enemy held stronghold or the main army without any support, and being duly slaughtered as a result. They did this not once but on several occasions, so I can live with them having less of a chage bonus.
However, since Templars were killed by default by the muslims when captured (so were hospitalliers btw), they should have an insane morale bonus to compensate imo.
The Templar Knights actually only have a charge value of 4. The same as peasants, and lower than several infantry units. I used Templars for quite a while online, but you really feel their lower charge. Their slightly lower cost is not enough compensation for their reduced effectiveness. A weapon upgrade would compensate adequately, but it costs about 180 florins.
Just mod the file to make Templars the same as other crusading knights - it is very easy and for a SP game, there is no problem. I've also modded archers to increase their arrows to 98; I much prefer the game like that.
The ability to so easily tweak the stats is a great feature CA have put in the game; people who feel strongly about changing a stat should feel free to use it.
Simon
Ummm... moding is a bit risky 'cause I play MP too. I don't know enough about moding and I am afraid one day I come to a game only to be kicked out...
So I found my solution: just pick Chivalric Knight or Hospotaler Knight instead of Templar one when in MP (unless your faction doesn't allow it).
Annie
Swoosh So
12-05-2002, 13:26
The reason the artist drew swords was to give some variation to the different cavalry types.
deejayvee
12-06-2002, 03:40
Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ Dec. 05 2002,06:26)]The reason the artist drew swords was to give some variation to the different cavalry types.
I've got no problem with that in itself. I have a problem with the fact that the artist's decision affected the unit stats.
The Last Emperor
12-06-2002, 06:14
Its rather inaccurate and unrealistic to rate the charge of any knights to be on par with the peasants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
It would be unrealistic if to watch them kill 15-20 opponents on charge while using swords. Question: Do Templars have a better melee/attack from the rest of the Knights? If it is so, then it would ballance the Knight units.
Spetulhu
12-06-2002, 09:44
Quote[/b] (Daevyll @ Dec. 03 2002,12:01)]However, since Templars were killed by default by the muslims when captured (so were hospitalliers btw), they should have an insane morale bonus to compensate imo.
This is a question of their legendary pride too. They`re forbidden to offer a ransom if captured. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
An order of knights that manages to lose 20,000 fighting men during it`s 200-year history doesn`t look too good. Especially considering they had 400 knights in Jerusalem at the height of their power
Sephiroth
12-06-2002, 11:38
How do you modify their attack?well htey are themost infamousof the knightly orders because htey came away with loads of cash and booty from the crusadesandhence set up the swiss banking system..they were always heldin suspicion but still..they are the most famous of knightly orders and should have some sort of major advantage against say normal sword foot soilders or something
Sephiroth - if you are asking how you modify a units attack stats, there is a text file crusader*.txt (where * is something I've forgotten) which has a couple of rows for each unit. The rows are labelled, as are the columns, so it is pretty easy to change that charge bonus of 4 to an 8 using wordpad or something. The crusading knights are all adjacent, so by eyeballing, you can adjust the Templars to make them comparable. Obviously back up the original just in case, but I have not had a problem.
I gather some fans experimented a lot with different stats in Shogun and believe that may have informed the stats in the final patch of that game. The gameplay is pretty sensitive to the stats though (IIRC changing the attack stat by 1 changes the "to hit" by about 12%).
I think the Templars attack is the same as the other crusading orders and wouldn't want to change that, as long as the charge bonuses were the same.
Apologies if you know all this already.
I think some of the reason is knights templar are early age unit, chivalric knights and lancers are late age units. Prolly the developer took the assumption that the better technology made the better unit. Although I agree about the charge bonus, simply unjustified. I'd take feudal knight any day to templar.
Quote[/b] (Sephiroth @ Dec. 06 2002,04:38)]How do you modify their attack?the knightly orders because htey came away with loads of cash and booty from the crusadesandhence set up the swiss banking system..they were always heldin suspicion but still..
argh...argh... it hurts... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Don't believe everything you hear, and dont place too much faith in the 'conspiracy theory' books/webpages/'documentaries' about the Templars. 90% of what is told about the Templars is utter nonsense, and 9 of the remaining 10% is only thesis, not proven fact.
Read a decent academic study about them instead.
MonkeyMan
12-06-2002, 14:01
Quote[/b] (Ktonos @ Dec. 06 2002,05:42)]It would be unrealistic if to watch them kill 15-20 opponents on charge while using swords. Question: Do Templars have a better melee/attack from the rest of the Knights? If it is so, then it would ballance the Knight units.
As i mentioned in my post (the second one) I have put +2 attck onto templars and added the 50 cost back in (because i make them buildable). All the crusadeing knights have the same stats as chivalric knights at the moment except for templars that have 4 less on their charge.
Go to:
C:\program files\Total War\Medieval - Total War\crusadersit_pord11.txt
and scroll down to
KnightsTemplar
and find the line
CHARGE_BONUS( 4 ), MELEE_BONUS( 5 ), DEFENCE_BONUS( 5 ), ARMOUR_LEVEL( 7 )
shove in the figures you think are appropriate and save the file.
Numerous online tests that I did with TosaInu in WE/MI on cavalry indicated that 1 point of attack was roughly equivalent to 4 or 5 points of charge. I would think that increasing attack by 1 would be adequate compensation for the Templar's lower charge. However, the Templar's charge value of 4 seems very low for a cavalry unit. Charge values on cav in WE/MI v102 range from 9 to 15. In the v103 stat, we went even higher than that, but it's a highly specilaized stat intended to give the shapest possible gameplay.
Had my first scrap playing with Templars. Was fighting to eliminate the last HRE pocket in Livonia (silly Germans launched a sneak attack on me while I was finishing off the Almohads), and the Germans had a pack of Teutonic Knights waiting for me (they'd taken Livonia in a Crusade).
Had a big head-on collision between my Templars, who I'd sent around on a slow outflanking maneuver, and a roughly equal group of Teutonic Knights. Verdict: Templars WRECKED the Teutonics, killed fifteen of them in the first charge and kept running them down right into the rear of the main German army, which was engaged with my spear line. They broke instantly, I sent in the Hobilars from the other flank, and it was a massacre.
Gotta build more Templars
MonkeyMan
12-06-2002, 17:15
Quote[/b] (Ckrisz @ Dec. 06 2002,15:04)]Had my first scrap playing with Templars. Was fighting to eliminate the last HRE pocket in Livonia (silly Germans launched a sneak attack on me while I was finishing off the Almohads), and the Germans had a pack of Teutonic Knights waiting for me (they'd taken Livonia in a Crusade).
Had a big head-on collision between my Templars, who I'd sent around on a slow outflanking maneuver, and a roughly equal group of Teutonic Knights. Verdict: Templars WRECKED the Teutonics, killed fifteen of them in the first charge and kept running them down right into the rear of the main German army, which was engaged with my spear line. They broke instantly, I sent in the Hobilars from the other flank, and it was a massacre.
Gotta build more Templars
I can only assume your templars had a much higher valour due to a good general.
Must be, though I didn't notice it being especially high (maybe a 4-5). My general did have eight stars, though. The current French campaign I'm playing has given me at least five generals with six or more stars, including two princes. Who knew the French were so smart? Godfrey of Bouillon must not have been around for Poitiers ...
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