econ21
12-11-2002, 12:32
[This post is rediscovering the wheel, so apologies for boring some better players.]
For a long time, I found the battlefield AI on MTW really good. I did not find any aspect of the tactical AI I could regularly "exploit" (the strategic AI was far worse, with its relative neglect of trade).
On the defense, I could hold a hill with a spearline backed by archers and flankers but only with sufficient force. Against a much larger or higher valour army, I still got steamrollered. This got harder post-patch as multiple Royal knights (Danes, Aragonese etc) or other heavy cav could tear up vanilla spearmen (before the patch, they were fairly impotent). However, typically, you could survive with modest casualties.
On the offense, casualties were higher - partly in my case because the defender would often counter-attack as I was deploying. For example, the Rebel Highlanders or Gallowglasses in the early period could do a lot of violence to an early English force caught unprepared. I would try to out-maneouvre the defender - eg taking higher ground or turning a flank - but often it would be a tough battle with near parity of numbers.
All this meant that the SP game proved a fun challenge. You could win if you fought well but there was an element of danger and difficulty; you needed to employ sound battlefield tactics and to build a strong economy. This is different from 90% of strategy games I play (especially wargames for some reason) where the AI just cannot make for a challenging game once you have learnt its foibles.
However, I may have found a deficiency of the AI that can make things a little too easy. It was suggested to me by a reply to my post on the old board asking for suggestions for offensive tactics. The reply said "whatever you do, make them move". I mentally bookmarked this reply, as it seemed to be the one that indicated my existing offensive tactics were missing something fundamental. Now, belatedly, I think I have experienced enough to understand it. (I tend to play rather a conservative game, nearly always on the tactical defensive).
The AI seems rather footloose on the defensive. If you approach them, they seem very inclined to move to attack you and so give up their nice high ground. What's worse, they sometimes seem to move piecemeal - so one unit will go for you, another will belatedly set-off to join them as the first is getting chewed up etc.
I found this last night trying to invade rebel Scotland in the early campaign; and then invading Aragon.
First, I'll describe what happened with my old offensive tactics. I invaded Scotland very early in an English campaign on normal difficulty. I deployed my army of 3 spears to the front, backed by 3 longbows (bribed Welsh rebels http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) and 1 archer, flanked by 2 royal knights. Then I moved uphill to approach the highlanders. The rebels, a mere 4 highlanders +1 archer, promptly launched a wonderful downhill highland charge into my army. The longbows did little damage and my spearline crumpled under the charge. One unit of my knights hit the rebel archers in the rear, but in retrospect, this was a mistake as it could not now contribute to the decisive melee. The other unit of knights flanked the highlanders but then got overwhelmed by a counter-charge. My spearmen routed, my ranged troops ran for their lives (no more longbows for 100 years http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif) and I quit the game in disgust at my ineptitude.
Learning from this, what I did second time round was to set up for a defensive battle with my main force set up far away on another hill. (I confess, I brought an extra spear and royal knight for my second attempt). Then I baited the highlanders with a unit of archers, retreating before them and leading them to my defensive hilltop position. (The archers were actually a bad choice for this role against the faster highlanders; cavalry would have been better). My longbows on the hill rained death on the highlanders, able to concentrate fire to a degree, as the enemy approached piecemeal. My spears held their own against the highlanders, due to the height advantage and the piecemeal advance of the enemy. The knights were also much more effective. Not facing a single fast masse charge, they had more time to dance around, tearing up weakened enemy units in turn and then retreating out of danger. I lost "only" about 100 spearmen (oh, how far spearmen have fallen, post-patch) and some of my tad too slow archer unit bait.
Using such "baiting" tactics, I suspect that you can actually win an offensive battle with lower casaulties than a defensive one, because you will be attacked in a more piecemeal way.
It is almost like the AI units have a "threat radius" and will move to attack anyone who enters that zone. In flat terrain or against an archer-deficient force you can exploit this with a more simple tactic of just approaching to the edge of this zone and whittling them down by ranged force. This is how I cope with those rebels in Ireland, who can otherwise do a lot of damage if allowed to charge en masse.
Anyway, I am a little sad I have found this because before in my naive state, as I said, I found MTW provided an good challenge. I know the baiting tactic worked at Hastings (and is recommended in the strategy guide) but it does seem a little easy to exploit. Maybe the battlefield AI needs tweaking, either to make it more stationary or at least to make it move en masse, not piecemeal.
Have other people experienced or exploited the same thing? It is early days for me playing with knowledge of this, so I may be over-reacting but baiting does seem an incredibly effective offensive tactic.
For a long time, I found the battlefield AI on MTW really good. I did not find any aspect of the tactical AI I could regularly "exploit" (the strategic AI was far worse, with its relative neglect of trade).
On the defense, I could hold a hill with a spearline backed by archers and flankers but only with sufficient force. Against a much larger or higher valour army, I still got steamrollered. This got harder post-patch as multiple Royal knights (Danes, Aragonese etc) or other heavy cav could tear up vanilla spearmen (before the patch, they were fairly impotent). However, typically, you could survive with modest casualties.
On the offense, casualties were higher - partly in my case because the defender would often counter-attack as I was deploying. For example, the Rebel Highlanders or Gallowglasses in the early period could do a lot of violence to an early English force caught unprepared. I would try to out-maneouvre the defender - eg taking higher ground or turning a flank - but often it would be a tough battle with near parity of numbers.
All this meant that the SP game proved a fun challenge. You could win if you fought well but there was an element of danger and difficulty; you needed to employ sound battlefield tactics and to build a strong economy. This is different from 90% of strategy games I play (especially wargames for some reason) where the AI just cannot make for a challenging game once you have learnt its foibles.
However, I may have found a deficiency of the AI that can make things a little too easy. It was suggested to me by a reply to my post on the old board asking for suggestions for offensive tactics. The reply said "whatever you do, make them move". I mentally bookmarked this reply, as it seemed to be the one that indicated my existing offensive tactics were missing something fundamental. Now, belatedly, I think I have experienced enough to understand it. (I tend to play rather a conservative game, nearly always on the tactical defensive).
The AI seems rather footloose on the defensive. If you approach them, they seem very inclined to move to attack you and so give up their nice high ground. What's worse, they sometimes seem to move piecemeal - so one unit will go for you, another will belatedly set-off to join them as the first is getting chewed up etc.
I found this last night trying to invade rebel Scotland in the early campaign; and then invading Aragon.
First, I'll describe what happened with my old offensive tactics. I invaded Scotland very early in an English campaign on normal difficulty. I deployed my army of 3 spears to the front, backed by 3 longbows (bribed Welsh rebels http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) and 1 archer, flanked by 2 royal knights. Then I moved uphill to approach the highlanders. The rebels, a mere 4 highlanders +1 archer, promptly launched a wonderful downhill highland charge into my army. The longbows did little damage and my spearline crumpled under the charge. One unit of my knights hit the rebel archers in the rear, but in retrospect, this was a mistake as it could not now contribute to the decisive melee. The other unit of knights flanked the highlanders but then got overwhelmed by a counter-charge. My spearmen routed, my ranged troops ran for their lives (no more longbows for 100 years http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif) and I quit the game in disgust at my ineptitude.
Learning from this, what I did second time round was to set up for a defensive battle with my main force set up far away on another hill. (I confess, I brought an extra spear and royal knight for my second attempt). Then I baited the highlanders with a unit of archers, retreating before them and leading them to my defensive hilltop position. (The archers were actually a bad choice for this role against the faster highlanders; cavalry would have been better). My longbows on the hill rained death on the highlanders, able to concentrate fire to a degree, as the enemy approached piecemeal. My spears held their own against the highlanders, due to the height advantage and the piecemeal advance of the enemy. The knights were also much more effective. Not facing a single fast masse charge, they had more time to dance around, tearing up weakened enemy units in turn and then retreating out of danger. I lost "only" about 100 spearmen (oh, how far spearmen have fallen, post-patch) and some of my tad too slow archer unit bait.
Using such "baiting" tactics, I suspect that you can actually win an offensive battle with lower casaulties than a defensive one, because you will be attacked in a more piecemeal way.
It is almost like the AI units have a "threat radius" and will move to attack anyone who enters that zone. In flat terrain or against an archer-deficient force you can exploit this with a more simple tactic of just approaching to the edge of this zone and whittling them down by ranged force. This is how I cope with those rebels in Ireland, who can otherwise do a lot of damage if allowed to charge en masse.
Anyway, I am a little sad I have found this because before in my naive state, as I said, I found MTW provided an good challenge. I know the baiting tactic worked at Hastings (and is recommended in the strategy guide) but it does seem a little easy to exploit. Maybe the battlefield AI needs tweaking, either to make it more stationary or at least to make it move en masse, not piecemeal.
Have other people experienced or exploited the same thing? It is early days for me playing with knowledge of this, so I may be over-reacting but baiting does seem an incredibly effective offensive tactic.