The Spanish

[ErikJansen]

Personally I love facing a spanish general, chock full of lancers and cavalry, the most unbalanced faction of them all. Its plain cheesy, no offense intended at all.

You get no better rush army, you get no better cavalry, you get no better vanilla mix in the whole world of MTW.

Every single kill I get versus a spanish army is savored as much, if not more, as a murdered Pavise Arbalester.

During my time as a Turk only general, there was no better opponent to face than the Spanish. Not only did they represent a challenge with the cavalry available, but most folks choosing the faction was so utterly arrogant that eating their cav with HJI seemed proper.

Now comes the question and point. How do YOU, the ELITE generals of MTW, combat the Spanish online?

Turk army? HRE army? English army? Spanish counter? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Whats your take on this?

Best regards,

[ShadesWolf]

I have always had difficulty countering the Spanish, so much that they are now my number one choice of army.

Lancers, Santiago and the javlins guys are a mean combination, add the that royal knights and a few highly armoured PAvise arbs and you get an explosive cocktail..

I will look out for you onlines to show you what I mean.....

[Tempiic]

I dread a balanced HRE army more than a spanish army though...

I do not change my usual factions when facing Spanish... So it will be either french, poles, egyptians, almohads, turks or russians depending on the map, era and mood http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Mithrandir]

Either camels, or with my HRE army, just throw some inf at their inf, waiting to lose in the center, but throw cav at their lancers, followed by swiss halbs or my peasants just kill them all.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Erik, you are not a Turk general anymore?

I don't really mind the Spanish... Their cav is tough, but killable (with... you name it JHI /polearm), inf is nothing specific. Honestly, I don't really care if it is Spain, Italy or HRE.

My favorite JHI/ Hybrid army has a much tougher time against byz... When I see byz with byz inf / VG, I know I will be in trouble overall and that I will be dominated in my supposedly strong point; sword. When I see some Spanish army, I pay extra attention to unit match, but am not too concerned. When not playing Turk (doen not happen that often) an facing Spain, I throw in a couple of extra polearm (GFK / CFK...) in the mix. That's all.

Louis,

[Alrowan]

who wants a replay of my english all inf army beating a spannish all cav army? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Sir Black Raven]

I want that file alrowan. I personaly dont like to use the english so i would like to see it...hehehehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Tera]

I think we're stretching too much here...

You don't fear the Spanish, you fear their Lancers and that's it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Otherwise Spain is just like the other Cath factions. I hope that in VI Lancers will be reduced in power or at least put exclusively in the Late era, just like the Gothic Knights are, who are also a killer unit, although they lack in speed.

I can't explain to myself why HRE is feared by some, they just have Swiss Halbs extra - which can be compared to Billmen - and have their own disadvantages (unit size, not very good for holding unlike Order Foot, not so good morale etc).

Tera

[Kongamato]

In VI, Lancers have been moved to the Late period. It looks like the Spanish will become more javelin-oriented, with the introduction of their new javelin-wielding infantry to add power along with their under-used Jinetes.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ April 24 2003,20:49)]Every single kill I get versus a spanish army is savored as much, if not more, as a murdered Pavise Arbalester.
Nah, you can be serious, are the Raven brainwashing their new members?

The most satisfying kill are, in that order

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif I hate them with a passion.

And then murdering routing barney...

And then cutting throught heavy cath cav...

And then killing some exhausted gothic foot knight... Make them run a little... they deserve it...

I also have some satisfaction shooting at camels

I must be a sadistic (sp?) individual.

But killing Lancers / Spanish is not specifically part of my list. Unless it's Mitch.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Louis,

[Mithrandir]

Swiss Halbs extra - which can be compared to Billmen - and have their own disadvantages (unit size, not very good for holding unlike Order Foot, not so good morale etc).

Nah 6 morale at valour 0 isn't very good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Tera]

Confused with normal Halbs I think http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Still though 6 still isn't Ghazi-like http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif

[Puzz3D]

The Byz are very tough in high era, and probably even more so in early era. The Spanish lancer may be just the thing you need for countering the Byz inf, but I don't know really since I never play Spanish or Byz, but it all changes in a week anyway. The lancer and the pav arb go to late era in Vikings, and I believe both lancers and Byz inf are getting price increases. Hopefully, spears were given a price rollback to v1.0 costs.

[ErikJansen]

Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ April 25 2003,12:20)]
Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ April 24 2003,20:49)]Every single kill I get versus a spanish army is savored as much, if not more, as a murdered Pavise Arbalester.
Nah, you can be serious, are the Raven brainwashing their new members?

The most satisfying kill are, in that order

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif I hate them with a passion.
ROFL HAHAHA http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Never change Louis http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

PS I'm still a Turk maniac who brings Hashishin to the field more often than not. Nothing like a Turk army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Tempiic]

Nothing like a muslim army you mean http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Whether they be egyptians, almohads or turks it will be great.

Btw, my russians recently converted to islam as well;)

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ April 25 2003,20:35)]
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ April 25 2003,12:20)]
Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ April 24 2003,20:49)]Every single kill I get versus a spanish army is savored as much, if not more, as a murdered Pavise Arbalester.
Nah, you can be serious, are the Raven brainwashing their new members?

The most satisfying kill are, in that order

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif I hate them with a passion.
ROFL HAHAHA http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Never change Louis http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

PS I'm still a Turk maniac who brings Hashishin to the field more often than not. Nothing like a Turk army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Even when I play the other faction (ie non turk with http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif ), I can't help myself and strive to increase http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif casualties including in my own rank and let ennemy cav charge and kill them.

I wish that in the kill sheet at the end of each battle we will have a segregate column for http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif so that I can track how many http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif I have killed (those kills are more satisfying), and which units killed the greatest number of http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif . Can this change be implemented in VI?

This unit will be my general unit for the next game (which is really a very dubious promotion, but I got to find a way to pick up a general, nobody in my army volunteers anymore).

Back on topic. Yes I like to charge Spanish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif too. May those die with http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif of all other nations.

Louis,

Ps; Tempiic, other muslim factions are fun too, but tainted by the presence of the disgraced http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif unit in their rank. They are therefore, less great.

[Aelwyn]

Lancers are my number one nemesis...actually people who take them to a game that is supposed to be fun are my nemesis. I come in with Kerns and Gallows....and then I've got to deal with 4-8 Lancers. Not fun. I absolutely love watching Billmen or CFK tear into them. I never take Turks when Lancers are available though, because I usually play team battles, and its a pain to make all your allies rush because you're getting torn up in the missle battle.

I like sandwiching Lancers too....a perfectly timed charge from two sides by Chiv Knights always makes me happy.

[Alrowan]

well my tank army is still rolling on, ive added a few more heads to it now

[ShadesWolf]

Last night I had a really enjoyble game....

It was a 4v4 and three of our four were Spanish

4v4 spanish victory (http://www.shademtw.com/graphics/victoryforspain.mrp)

I was the purple Spanish. It quite an intersting game as our ally, the turk got wiped out in the first 5 minutes of the battle, so in effect it was 4v3.


http://www.shadesmtw.com/graphics/spanisharmy.gif

IMHO is just shows how effective the Spanish cav really are....



Please enjoy.

[LRossaLordJimi]

Much people take Spanish just for Lancers,of course they are beatable,but in a 4vs4 or 3vs3 if your enemy have at least one Spanish you have to take Spanish also,and i hate this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
I like muslim's tactical variety
Ave

[Alrowan]

who said you need spain to beat spain.

Vandal and I had a most remarkable fight last night to be honest. It was a 3v3, but when our ally dropped before we even engaged, it was in effect a 2v3

our side consisted of 2 HRE and one English (me)

They had 1 spain, 1 HRE and 1 English

in the game i faced spain, but my english infantry army completely dominated the field. When our ally dropped, we were forced to make our move before the enemy could out manouver us, Vandal was left to hold off the two, while i duked it out with Spain. Using my English Inf Army (4 v3 Billmen, 4 v1 CFK, 4 v3 Militia Sergeants, 3pavs arbs a2, 1 alan merc v3) i managed to rout spain, even with enemy cavalry hitting my right flank. After this the remnants of our armies faced off again, this time more fair in a 2v2, with spain routed. Both of the enemies were wekened sorely, and it was just a matter of marching up with the remains of my forces, and they ran.

The way to beat a spain army with my setup is to use a deceptivly even deployment, then when attacking, thin out your center, and have weighed flanks. Your army being anti cav can simply smash thier cav on thier flanks, leaving them open to being surrounded.

[ShadesPanther]

Spai have a weakness which isnt much comfort to some factions. They have weak infantry they spend all money on lancers.
use small numbers of ordinary infantry and lots of anti cav and you should beat them.

[Tempiic]

Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ April 26 2003,06:52)]Ps; Tempiic, other muslim factions are fun too, but tainted by the presence of the disgraced http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif PAV ARB http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif unit in their rank. They are therefore, less great.
That they have pav arbs does not mean you have to deploy them... Ok to be honest the turks are one of the few armies around who do not need pav arbs (even when they want to engage into range wars)

I notice Im starting to use arbs instead of pav arbs more and more with my egyptians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif And got a few armies (both almo's, egyptians, russians) where i dont use them at all.

[Crandaeolon]

Lol Alrowan, not you too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

For the past week or so I've been arguing in the .com forum about the obvious weaknesses of the all-infantry army, go take a look. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I even proved those weaknesses in a duel, but I'd like to do it against a better opponent like you.

I'm sure you know what the main problems are, but let's have some tests, ok? Consider yourself challenged http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Magyar Khan]

i always take spain when my enemy takes spain, i have been beaten once by an all cav spain user. spains lancers are too strong. no need to discuss it here. its obvious.

[LRossaLordJimi]

Alrowan,i know that a Spanish army is beatable,but in the hand of a good and skilled players thay have a great advantage.
Ave

[tootee]

IMO the lancers are the most effective units to have around. Any general who know how to use horse will always appreciate these lancers.

But having them might take away some fun from the games, because even facing spears and such, one can hold longer than other cav *because they are so cost effective, at the same florin level, the lancers have better defence and morale compare to other cav type*, while other lancers flank and hit these spears/halb. You can't do this with other cav.

I dont see how one can even out the odds when faced with a good general using lancers, except with lancers too.

[ErikJansen]

Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ April 26 2003,07:00)]Lol Alrowan, not you too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

For the past week or so I've been arguing in the .com forum about the obvious weaknesses of the all-infantry army, go take a look. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I even proved those weaknesses in a duel, but I'd like to do it against a better opponent like you.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'm certain Alrowan will be most happy to oblige you, but I was informed of his decision to go all inf before my army was selected. So I went cav heavy and took centre position, while Alrowan anchored the left http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

When we were left 2v3 in the game described, I immediately dispatched 3 Teutonics (w2 upgraded btw) to work at the spanish flank. Enemy cav was dispatched to counter this, but they hit Alrowans polearm contigent. Luckily I brought some holding inf to absorb the impact of the 2 other armies bearing down on me.

I'm with you here tho Crand, there is no substitute for mobility, especially in team games (maybe even moreso in a 1v1). However when facing the spanish, it might be an idea to go polearm heavy and work them the way Alrowan described.

Edit: Typos and poor descriptions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Regards,

[Alrowan]

yes, cran, i know an all inf armies weakness, and i can counter that the best way i can, and that is RESERVES... one of the main reasons why all inf armies lose is due to poor generalship. They overcommit themselves and dont leave any units guarding thier rear, and are flanked fast by cavalry if they dont stop it right. My only weakness having counterd that is my militia sergeants lower morale. Im working on a substitute, and will soon have my perfect all inf army ready http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

by the way, its undefeated in 6 battles now.

but like i said, anouverability is thier weakness, so dont always fall for your opponents feings.

[Knight_Yellow]

to beat spain i take


1 merc cavarly general no upgrades

3 Pav arb to thin their horses numbers val 2

4 militia seargents to hold up their horses val4 2 weapons

4 gallow glasses to flank their horses val 3 2 weapons

4 holibars val 4 to decimate their horses weapon 3


my holibars decimate any lancers, dont ask me how but elite holibars witch are cheap as chips http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif are solely meant to tackle these spanish beasts.



note that army works versus byz as well and against a non calvarly army replace the holibars with val 3 billmen.

[FearofNC]

ive been having alot of success with my inf heavy army... without giving away all of the details....

cav general
3 pav arbs
2 orderfoot
3 chiv foot knights
4 fmaa or 2 fmaa
2 cmaa or 4 cmaa
2 cav

this is based on one of my old shogun armies

really crank those cav up... v3 sometimes... you want to be able to count on those 2 cav winning against any other cav 1v1 on field.. that leavs you with 5 anti-cav inf units and 6 sword units... and i agree 100% with alrowan... you must know when to use reserves... but also when to commit it all to a decisive engagment..

as to the topic... spainsh in the hands of a skilled oppenent cannot be beat without spain on a regular basis... a vet using spain wont spend a ton on their lancers...instead prefering to use the cost effectivness of battlefield valor gains... this lets the spanish player field cav wich are equall or better than the oppents at the same time as massivly outspending them in infantry.. any player who over spends on lancers is vunarable to a anti cav army. i find the best non spain counter is byz... with a combo of napthas and byz inf... a skilled general can fare decently vs the spanish....

im looking foward to vi and the new unit vlaues though... ill be glad when the days of lancers are over http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Is it worth noticing that this topic seems to focus on army selection, and that, beside comments on the use of reserve (but is it specific to game vs Spain???), I don't see a lot of comments on battlefield tactics?

Does that mean anything?

I have played a few games vs some Spanish opponents of variable quality.

Attacks with other factions may start with infantry fight and cav going on flank.

Spanish army *seems* to be more cav heavy in general, as a consequence, they end up with less sword / spears. Attack from a spanish army is more likely to start with cav charge than infantry fight (not likely to be victorious)and cav flanking.

The question I end up with is, how can we take advantage of that?

Louis,

[FearofNC]

Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ April 26 2003,12:09)]a vet using spain wont spend a ton on their lancers...instead prefering to use the cost effectivness of battlefield valor gains... this lets the spanish player field cav wich are equall or better than the oppents at the same time as massivly outspending them in infantry.. any player who over spends on lancers is vunarable to a anti cav army.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[tgi01]

Quote[/b] ]Is it worth noticing that this topic seems to focus on army selection, and that, beside comments on the use of reserve (but is it specific to game vs Spain???), I don't see a lot of comments on battlefield tactics?

I think this is a good point , and the answer is quite simple you dont need a specific anti lancer tactic / army
... play your own game, have the initiative, be agressive

and someone picking spain against you in a 1 vs 1 just recognized that youre the better player ... use their fear against them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

TGI

[Crandaeolon]

Al, with only 3 missile units you'll be in serious trouble if you lose the shootout. CBR used more missile units with his all-inf English army, and yup it was dangerous. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

How about 4-6 arbs/pav arbs, 4 Swiss Halberdiers, 2 CMAA, a CFK gen and the rest Militia Sarges? Put Sarges into the middle of the line with the CMAA covering their flanks to compensate for the low morale of the Sarges.

Having a lot of missile units also has the added bonus of making the opponent charge more easily, which is good with the all-inf army. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Alrowan]

ok CBR, i know what your getting at. but i still tend to win 90% of my arb wars, and even if i start to look like losing i can hold off till ammo runs dry. My light cav tactics tend to get rid of quite a few arbs if facing an average enemy

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ April 26 2003,14:18)]
Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ April 26 2003,12:09)]a vet using spain wont spend a ton on their lancers...instead prefering to use the cost effectivness of battlefield valor gains... this lets the spanish player field cav wich are equall or better than the oppents at the same time as massivly outspending them in infantry.. any player who over spends on lancers is vunarable to a anti cav army.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
So...

Instead of 4 v1 CK, Spain players buy 4 v0 lancers and give the extra money to inf.... How much money is that? Is it going to make a significant difference?

Is this extra money going to help when facing good inf faction (Eng, Turk, HRE... Byz not in there, because byz anticav is not good, and as Spain vs Byz, I would buy lot of cav&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif with both good anti cav and good sword?

Louis,

[Alrowan]

when spain boost thier inf instead of thier lancers, its where they fall through. v0 lancers are not so hard to rout, so taking them at low valour weakens thier lancers somewhat

[FearofNC]

i think tosa pinned the florin amount atvantage to something like 500 florin per lancer atvantage... a 1000 florin lancer will beat any other cav up to around 1500 florin or there abouts... if you use 4 lancers thats an extra 2000 florin u get to spend on your inf that the oppenent doesnt have...in a 15k match thats a huge atvantage... not one that can be overcome if the players are of equal skill...

an example of a real situation and the difference of 2000 florin on your h2h units would be a case where the non spanish player would bring 4 fmaa at v4 (around 6500 florin) and the spanish player could bring 4 cmaa at v4 (around 8500 florin) for a good test find a buddy u think is of equall skill and bring the same say english army... with the only difference being the fmaa/cmaa run a few battles... how many does the player with the 2000 florin atvantage win?

[Puzz3D]

NC,

The advantage is at most 300 florins, and probably realistically a bit less than that because a v1 chiv knight at 1105 florins is equal in combat to a v0 lancer, and has +2 morale over the lancer.


Louis,

You're right that many Spanish faction players, incuding some vets, rely too heavily on their lancers to win. These are countered nicely with polearm inf units. I find the Spanish much easier to defeat than the Byz because the lancer has good counter units but the Byz inf does not.

[FearofNC]

i said a 1k lancer.... basicly a v0w1a0 lancer.. its the armour puzz...no other cav in the game has a defult of 9.. your comparing apples to oranges..

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Whether it is 1200 fl or 2000 fl, that makes a lot of money...Ouch.

I still consider Spanish infantry as somehow inferior, they have no special units. Can other factions (I think HRE, Eng...)use their specific units to make up for some of the fl difference?

Yuuki,

I also have more trouble with byz inf / VG than Lancers, but it might tell more about me than about the strenght of Spain or Byz...
The counter for byz inf is Lancers

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Louis,

[Puzz3D]

NC,

How is comparing chiv knight and lancer apples to oranges? Those two units are very close in characteristics. The v0w1a0 lancer costs 1064, and the v1w1a0 chiv knight costs 1470. Those two units have equal melee stats and the chiv knight has higher morale. The difference is 406 which is less than what you claimed. The higher armor of the lancer works against it vs armor piercing units.

[Vanya]

GAH

Counter to Spanish?

Well... you KNOW they will come at you with a specific set of units. The best "counter" then is any army tailored to face the specific forecasted threat.

Vanya sez...

Take Spanish usually means lots of Lancers. So, enemy takes lots of spears. Vanya sez... Spanish can throw a curveball and take lots of chiv maa... what then?

Best strategy is always simple: CUT HEADS OFF

You can't go wrong with that.

Vanya has the benefit on fielding an invincible deity of the battlefield: Himself. Vanya's hapless peasantry is usually just there for Vanya's entertainment. It amuses Vanya to see condemned men run for their lives as if they actually had a say in their fate...

GAH

[Paolai]

sadly me and Cranda still havent did the "challenge" test, I am very interested to know how the Cranda's skill can beat me with Spanish faction...

[Aleborg]

2 pavs

4 fmaa

2 militia sargent

4 lancers

4 santiago knights

Give me that and i will be very happy, if u want we can test vs another army with no spanish units...


Ale

[baz]

Hi Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe what is your online name?

My money is on spain, even though puzz and NC's figures are slightly different both agree that the lancer gives an advantage, this is simply the facts unfortunately .. I will watch the battles between Cranda and Paolai very closely and would be very surprised if Cranda can get a majority of wins..

Alrowan, you say this Inf army is undefeated? is that in 6 games vs spain controlled by generals of a similar skill .. if so let us have a look http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Wolf_Nashwan]

When i was a newB i used spain allot, won allot /// but right now, ( when i become beter ) i trying to take bit more harder challenge by choosing other factions. Sometimes when i play noobs i even want em to take spain, for i want challenge, (then i must work much faster to flank the lancers.

((( veterans using spains lancers is just feard from losing ))) and if you play em (do a good game ( even if u loose, the honour is on your side)

this i want u all to know.

Wolf_Nashwan

[Magyar Khan]

besides the visible stats somethims it feels there are hidden stats, like the turk v4 jan infantry. 4 of them can cause major routs, lancers do the same.

[ErikJansen]

You are referring to the Janissary Infantry skirmishers Khan? Care to elaborate? v4 JI have a tough attack value, its about 8 methinks.. enough to decimate any spear unit.

Part from that I can see no relation between JI massrouts and Lancer steamrolls http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Crandaeolon]

Sorry Paolai, I've been very busy in Real Life™ with the study year here at the university coming to a close. I'll be more often online starting from the second week of May or thereabouts. These days I've mostly popped in for a game or two a day, and I haven't seen ya online. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Alrowan]

Cran, when we meet, ill face your spannish then

[Crandaeolon]

Huh? What? My spanish?

Err... I originally wanted to _defend_ against the spanish, but I guess the other way around is ok too... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Baz,

Oddly enough my online name is Louis Ste Colombe

My money is also on Spain... Because I know what I am worth as a general

Louis,

[Alrowan]

lol, well you did say that my army was beatable... anywas, ill be in game for the next couple of hours

[Puzz3D]

Well Crand in a week Viking Invasion will be out, and battlefield upgrades have been REMOVED. The lancers are also gone from high era and have been increased in cost, so a battle test of v1.1 Spanish will be pointless. MTW v1.1 is going the way of the dinosaur.

[Kansuke]

Hi Guys,

Ahh.

An excellent time to enter the arena then.

*Starts long journey from east*

Bows.

Kansuke.http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/allclasses/KensaiL.jpg

[Paolai]

Dont worry Cranda, we will test it when we will have the time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif and if you still want to do it. It is no pointless to do this test for me till there is someone that thinks that the skill can help him to beat a Spanish army...no...to have skill is not enought to do it, this is my opinion. I think that also a player like me with Spanish, can beat a player that won the last 2 1v1 tourneys, this is the point...so no skill needed, only a strong faction/army

[tgi01]

Hmmmm, IMHO Pao is too good to make this test relevant ... the question is can or will an average but experienced player beat a really god one bec. of the lancers .. and the answer is that no he will not ...

.. and lets not forget that in a standard 15k no rules game spanish dude can afford 6 lancers ....( theyll cost like 1100 a piece and will still be far better than val 1 chiv knights which have the same cost ) ( now how do I know ...:p... Im using an army like that as equalizer when other side plants total noobs on TGI s team)



TGI

And I still dont think that you need a special antilancer tactic / army in bigger games ...

[FearofNC]

its the idea of hidden stats... which are real... there are many combat modifiers that we sometimes dont take into effect... for instance... the hospitilar knight and chilveric knight are the same right??? think again....

[Puzz3D]

Paolai,

I don't agree with you that no skill is required to play this game. If you believe that no skill is involved, why do you play? At what percentage advantage do you think the game becomes a no skill game: 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%?Everyone agrees that the Spanish have an advantage. It's about a 10% advantage florin wise in a 15k battle when 4 lancers are taken. The lancer itself is about 25% out of balance relative to the chiv knight. If you want battles where nobody gets an advantage during army selection, then all players have to use exactly the same units. CA is never going to balance the factions and units to that degree.

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ April 30 2003,12:14)]its the idea of hidden stats... which are real... there are many combat modifiers that we sometimes dont take into effect... for instance... the hospitilar knight and chilveric knight are the same right??? think again....
Hospitallers look cooler http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.

I know but I'm not telling...

[LadyAnn]

Battle field upgrade REMOVED? WOW All my secret sauce

Annie
*going back to kitchen*

[Puzz3D]

If you people know about hidden stats, you should say what they are. If you want to keep your little secrets to give yourself an "edge" over other players, please stay out of my games.

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ April 30 2003,15:12)]If you people know about hidden stats, you should say what they are. If you want to keep your little secrets to give yourself an "edge" over other players, please stay out of my games.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif







It's not a secret stat...it's just looked over usually..

[Tera]

Well NC told me on the foyer...why it has to be kept secret? All the 'secrets' must come out if we want this game to be good

He says the Hospitallers have a superior shield modifier than their Chivalric counterparts...

[FearofNC]

isnt that like calling the kettle black...you of all people know the stats through and through... but the simple fact is ... all i did was read targets unit files... these are available to anyone who wants them here at the org.... but some players dont need the stat files... some have a natural ability... the biggest modifer of all is the player in command. when senior players say they feel something about a unit... i tend to believe them more than the number crunchers...


as for you implying that i keep secrets... 2 seconds after that post i was online and awnsered this question in the open foyer... but i do keep secrets.. just 2 days ago i shared my rewritten formation data file with your clan.. didnt we agree that that was a military secret? so when are secrets ok and when arent they?

p.s. i have lots of tatics, tricks and stuff others dont have.. its called 3 years of experince... should i tell everyone how you can still redzone? or how about attacking during deployment... are these the things we should be telling everyone about? same goes with units... if i spill all my guts.. tell everything i know about which units are best at which florin levels... will the game online be better tomorrow or worse... imagine if we had told everyone the power of w3 cav when we discoved them in the first week of the game... or how about a3 pavs... we managed to surpress that info for almost 2 months... sometimes its in the good of the community not to go telling everyone which units are the most unbalanced... so with this in mind... i refuse to give all of my secrets away.. and i will refrain from joining your games yuuki. sorry you feel this way.

[FearofNC]

ok ok... since everyone wants all of the truth... lets stop talking about v0 lancer and start talking about v0w2a0 lancers... when you add upgrades to the weapons along with the extra defense the 9 armour gives you.... lancers will always gain battlefiled valor faster than other cav... as well as live longer... increasing the charge on the lancers with the 2 weapons has the effect of making the inital charge of the v0 lancer the same as a v3 lancer.. further unbalancing them is the fact after 1 or 2 kills you now have a v1w2a0 lancer.. whith a charge similar to a v5 lancer.. and 11 armour.. this is a uber unit than cannot be countered.

but hey why stop there.... attention all noobs... dont upgrade all of your lancers the same... make half with no upgrade and half with w2 or w3 ... use the upgraded ones in the initall charge and the non upgraded ones as secondary.. this will help you further maximise battlefield valor gain and slaughter vets with balanced armies.. ...

ps when using spain dont bring spear units... spears are anti cav and since lancers are the ultimate anti cav save your slots for maa..

here is a vet killing 15k lancer noob army

1 cav general
3 pavs v0w0a3
3 cmaa at v3
2 milita at v4
5 lancers 3 @w2 2 @w0
2 knights of santiago v0w2a0

have fun killing vets hardly any skill required http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Paolai]

Sadly on this game you need about 10%/15% skill, my opinion, not more, the rest is only army/faction/lucky/tricks. On STW/MI about 75% skill....I would like to see again this percentage on the next CA game

[LRossaLordJimi]

10/15 % Paolai? Maybe a little bit more,or the other 50% will be just luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

What about Hospitaler Knights,better then Chivalric knights?I like very much the first one,i feel they're better but maybe it's just an impression.Do you know some difference about?

About Spanish i say this:just add 2 units of chivalric foot knights to help your cav against lancers,they are slow,but they will do a very nice job,better than any spears or halberdiers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Ave

[Tera]

The Weapon upgrade on Lancers was well known, but vets hardly abuse of Spain because it's just too blatant. They prefer more subtle loopholes don't you think http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Hopefully Lancers will be less of a problem next week.

MTW has more loopholes as NC outlines but I don't agree about their 'secrecy' - because they're not secrets at all. New things are discovered each week. Arbs arm3...I personally used them for long and I don't need anyone to tell me that they're good and no-one approached me saying "hey this is a secret make sure you don't tell anyone" - it just happened that I tested them and they worked well. I'm sure many more have. Same with Militia Sergeants v4. Many used them before any senior vet ever tried to buy one. Yet we're not speaking of unbeatable units here. You can perfectly lose with your nice Arbs arm3. And everyone uses Militia today anyway.

As for cav with wep3...the FK wep3 works well, yet it surely isn't a uber unit. Feck the stats, I've used them for months. It only gives an advantage if used well...you won't pretend to rush with 8 Wep3 cavs onto spears and just win.

Look, it has been clear from Day 1 that while Shogun required more skill and was more 'deep' to master, Medieval is SPECIFICALLY tailored for the masses...those 90% of MTW players out there that never/hardly played online and play the game just for fun. Prepare yourself: Rome will probably be even 'worse'. It's like music. Britney Spears is total crap. But she sells. And that's what the record company wants.

Skill...a perfect newbie still won't beat Paolai using balanced armies. As far as that doesn't happen, Total War needs skill. Maybe it needs less attention to detail and 'deepness' than STW, yet skill is still the biggest modifier in defining "who is stronger" in a well balanced environment.

Red zoning...attacking while deploying...we have them as well. Both were shown to me by AMP during Shogun times. Everyone agrees they shouldn't be there and in fact few are those who use them and who does is a complete loser. They're evident flaws in the game...they're no huge secrets that lead to perpetual victories, because they're too evident not to be noted.

There is nothing wrong in exploiting unit weaknesses and strengths...as far as the unit in question is perfectly beatable...Arm3 arbs...Militia sergs v4...Wep3 cavs...and so on. Three years of total war, experience and dedication pay off in some way. And that's one of the rewards - knowing the best units to get for your style of play.

Sorry, but I wish to ponder this last question...is skill just the amount of successful flanking/rearing one does combined with good timing and army disposition? I think not. Army selection, smartness, experience...are part of it too.

I'm more than sure NC and other seniors came up with a 'perfect' army that isn't too evidently imbalanced (unlike the use of 5 lancers) to the naked eye but yet the best 'normal' army one can get...is he to be condemned for exploiting these little things or is he to be praised for converting time, experience and dedication into an excellent army that suits his needs? I would opt for the second. Eating stats and calculating the chance to kill won't make you an excellent player automatically...experience pays off.

Tera

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ April 30 2003,06:01)]You are referring to the Janissary Infantry skirmishers Khan? Care to elaborate? v4 JI have a tough attack value, its about 8 methinks.. enough to decimate any spear unit.

Part from that I can see no relation between JI massrouts and Lancer steamrolls http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Erik,
I don't know if there are any hidden stats, but it is no mistery that V4 JI are tough...

Fast comparison of known stat (Att/Def/Arm/Mor);

V4 JI; 1489 Fl, 8/6/3/12 + bow
V4 CMAA; 2089 Fl, 8/8/5/12
V4 Mil Sarg; 1253 Fl; 6*/7/3/8
V4 FMAA; 1461 Fl; 7/8/5/10

And one of my personnal fav;

V4W2 Ottoman inf; 1308 Fl; 7*/5/3/8 + bow... Not too bad for an underdog... Not optimal, but I don't see them around on the filed, and I like their look... So I play them (And that is what it shall be about&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

JI/MAA are elite which, I think, give non elite fighting vs them a morale penalty (outclass). Maybe part of the steamroll effect???

Louis,

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Tera @ April 30 2003,22:55)]He says the Hospitallers have a superior shield modifier than their Chivalric counterparts...
huh?

CBR

[FearofNC]

since this is a tell all thread... part of the lore about the jany archers is the fact that whichever team has more elite units gets a moral bonus.. go adding hiden moral bonuses to an already super high moral and you hit the tipping point... the point where modifiers cause units to act in ways they never would have normaly.. since jhi are also elite units... the turks usually get this elite unit combat bonus... its just been noticed more often in the archers due to there use in the early stages of the game...when more time can be spent viewing...

btw this elite combat bonus is crazy...maybe its a good idea in sp but in mp its not needed... part of the reason spears are sooo weak is the fact that there arent any "elite" spears.. not in mp at least... so if u take spears... u give your oppenets cav more moral... nice how that works... isnt it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

the strongest christian knights in order:
1. lancer
2. hospitilar
3. tutonic/santiago
4. chilveric
5. templar
6. fudal
7. royal (depending on era, in late matches they are stronger than fudal)
8. alan
9. mounted sergents
10. hobliers

did i forget any?

[Alrowan]

well as far as it goes, skill plays about 100% of this game


does it not take skill to choose the right army? and does it not take skill to know how to use your army most efectivly...

also it requires skill to outclass and out manouvre an opponent, and skill yet again to show restraint with your armies, and skill agian when it comes to out tinkng your opponent.. luck plays no part in my battles, that is why i win a lot. I play with my head, and exploit any little hole in the line a can find.

Ask any vet here, they will vouch for skill. How else did Cran win two tourneys in a row?

[tgi01]

charge meleee defence cadef caatt arm hon shiel

hosp 3 5 5 0 0 6 8 0
chiv 2 4 6 1 3 5 8 Larg


Yepp that hospits got shields and CFK s doesnt is a secret
for everyone who is blind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

The assembly is down for the moment but there are plenty of unit stats copies around on other sites ...

And stop whining about the game , is maybe as simple as some ppl does not take the effort of learning something new ...

If you want a perfectly balanced game play chess ....



TGI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[FearofNC]

my apoligies...it was the other way around... or maybe i was trying to make a point and throw everyone off at the same time.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

if u want... have a look here (http://www.fearfulways.com/crusaders_unit_prod11.htm)

the first page that opens contains many examples of so called hidden modifiers...

next click on the unit def tab (sheet002)
scroll down till you find the christian cav... goto the very last colum on the far right... see where chilveric get a "special" modifier?

of course these are prepatch values.. but its all we have http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[FearofNC]

another one i like.... "shield effectivness"

any noticed b4 that fmma have a rating of 1 and cmaa have a rating of .5 ?

i wonder why im always bringing fmaa http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Paolai]

Well....10%/15% skill needed is my personal opinion. The great part of the games that I won its just because I choosed a stronger army than my opponent, and there is no skill to choose an army...you can just copy another strong army player. When I was a student...many times I copied my homeworks....this doesnt means that I was skilled at school http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[FearofNC]

oh back to the topic...lancers... how again are we supposed to compare them?? since they use a different weapon... their horses are armoured differently, and they carry a different shield... all 3 unique only to lancers.. this is why i compared lancers and chiv knights to apples and oranges.. its impossible to even begin to compare unless there is some common ground..

sry for the ranting... im just tired of all the bs.

[FearofNC]

Quote[/b] (tgi01 @ May 01 2003,00:29)]If you want a perfectly balanced game play chess ....
actually...for the sake of argument... chess is not perfectly balanced..

opposing forces mirror each other.. they are not exactly alike..

one player goes first.. then turns alternate...

i could go on but it would be very picky...

the point some of are are trying to make... is that we miss the days when you could match your skill up vs. another player... like in chess.. only skill and a tad bit of luck will win.. mtw is more like playing 8 pawns vs a queen... one side has a uber unit that will always win if played correctly...


ps.. i dont know where you got ur stats for the cav from... but they are way off.. check out the link i posted for a more accurate version albiet v1.0

[Aleborg]

IMHO is clear that u need a bit of skills to win other players, thats obvious, the problem is that now, with so powerful cavs,unbalanced unit and so on, if u pick a nice army and play not very well but not bad, just face ur enemy's units, avoid some cavs movements and take care for flanking when the main battle is on u can win perfectly well players with higher skills than your (it happened to me many times, i was the weak one and won strongest enemies in many cases...).

Now if u are in battle and u try to move ur units who are figthing u just will see how they start routing immediately. Thats silly imo. U can not make some nice envolving movements because it isn't very usefull, of course u can do them before the battle, but the only thing u can do with that is getting your army out of breath and then if the enemy just change position and face u propertly u will loose soon.
I really miss the nice army movements which were really usefull in STW, where the skills had really more important than now. U had to take care to much more things than now.
As said before, just pick a strong army, rush ur enemy propertly, avoid some cav flanking and u will win many many games... Is this really skill??

Well, i will play this game coz i love it, but its true that nowadays the skills are not so important.

Sorry for my bad english... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Ale

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[baz]

Alrowan i strongly disagree with you if it was 100% skill an army of 4 peasants, fanatics, urban militia and mouted seageants would be able to beat a spanish cav heavy army that is controlled by a general with similar skill level, i can guarantee that i will loose 99% vs my clanm8s in 1v1 with that senario .. do you not agree?

Paolai's 10% is a bit extreme as well but i think he is just trying to put his point across ..

imo if you are a skilled general then you will win the majority of your online battles especially with so many inexperienced generals in the foyer, but sadly part of that skill is picking a good army .. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[LRossaLordJimi]

Ehehhe Shogun vets are nostalgic about "nice old times" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

So about Hospitaler Knights,TGI,i didn't have your statistic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif In TotalWarAssembly i found that Hospitaler and Chivalric knights have the same stats....8 charge,5 melee,5 defense ecc. for both.So i didn't have any notice about a shield on the Hospitaler.Someone of you master of statistic can help me?
Ave

[FearofNC]

http://www.fearfulways.com/crusaders_unit_prod11.htm

[Mithrandir]

I can't help but feel like a noob http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif. I thought I had mastered the game, was a mediocore player and knew most things... this thread makes me feel insuperior by far...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif . I know about red zones I think, but attacking while deploying ?

[tgi01]

Well I actually have a printout from the assembly, so I thats where I got the stats for for details check :

http://terazawa.totalwar.org/iB_html/uploads/footknights.jpg

Anyway chivs got the armour piercing and xtra against cav strenght, and hospits are availiable in early so, so most ppl use both anyway...

Chess being inbalanced, do I have to answer that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ?????

And yes army picking does influence the outcome to much in 1 vs 1, I agree about that I ve got beaten in 1 vs 1 several times with my beloved egyptian army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif...

And yes I can understand the frustration when you really are into a game then the follow up comes out and it doesnt have the feeling ... ( I was playing Q2 a lot and the Q3 came out I think played that twice maybe ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif )

And yes in a larger game with reasonably decent balanced armies skill will decide ...

TGI

[baz]

here the pic TGI,

nevermind it was not working when i saw http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif haha

[CBR]

Omg

That last column is for support cost Only special thing about chiv knights is that they have higher support cost than any of the crusader knights.

Shield modifiers...yes been known nearly from the beginning. The more armour a unit has the less important the shield gets. Armour 1-3 gets a full benefit 4-5 0.5 and 6 0. And they have never really been hidden. Just check F1. You will see FMAA has same armour as CMAA

FMAA starts with armour 3 and have large shield with mod 1 ...total 5

CMAA starts with armour 4 and have large shield with mod 0.5...total 5

There is nothing hidden in that excel really. It calculates the values that you see in F1 and in the crusader prod file.

And of course you can compare lancers with other heavy cav. They have same function and even same speed. The differences is in armour and defense. Just as well as you can compare feudal knights to Chiv knights. It all comes down to stats and cost plus any special abilities if there are any.

Any other "secrets" you wanna share? Why are Hospitallers better? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif

CBR

[Swoosh So]

Attacking while deploying is just a silly bug that was evident in stw as well when missle units attack during setup.

[CBR]

Tabe of Contents (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=3823)

Most links are still working but of course some info is outdated as some of the discussions were from before the patch.

CBR

[spacecadet]

Maybe you are a noob mith... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Seriously, as someone who could never be arsed looking at the stats, i'd always felt that Chiv knights were the 3rd best cav behind the gothics and lancers, with the hospitalers slightly worse...

For all that other stuff about less skill being needed, hopefully the expansion improving archery (cav archers particulary),Spear units and the removal of the combat bonuses will be enough of an improvement to the skill and to the feel of the game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Space
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Tera]

The production files are the ultimate stat source, but come on, the differences between units like Chiv Knights and Hosp Knights are just insignificant. 100% balance in a game like this is just impossible. STW and MI had these as well...remember the monks in STW? the Nodachi in MI? the NC in MI?

[Swoosh So]

The monks were not that imbalanced, as u know it was easy to counter docs old 8 monk 8 gun army.

[Tera]

Monk rushers were well beatable, but the monk rushers - Dionysus/Bachus was one ages ago he can fill in http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif - didn't use monks for nothing. Monks were overpowered. The reality is that we moaned so much about them that CA made them quite crap in MI. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Let's speak about MTW...apart from the Lancer army...is any army using these bloody 'secrets' ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) unbeatable?

Tera

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ April 30 2003,20:28)]well as far as it goes, skill plays about 100% of this game


does it not take skill to choose the right army? and does it not take skill to know how to use your army most efectivly...

also it requires skill to outclass and out manouvre an opponent, and skill yet again to show restraint with your armies, and skill agian when it comes to out tinkng your opponent.. luck plays no part in my battles, that is why i win a lot. I play with my head, and exploit any little hole in the line a can find.

Ask any vet here, they will vouch for skill. How else did Cran win two tourneys in a row?
You can argue that choosing an army is a skill...

But it became obivous for me yesterday than choosing your team, is even more important... That is my best skill, and how I win some 4v4 from time to time

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Louis,

[Tera]

Finding an excellent army as a reward for your time and dedication on a game is part of skill gained by experience.

Tera.

[Alrowan]

Quote[/b] (baz @ May 01 2003,20:10)]Alrowan i strongly disagree with you if it was 100% skill an army of 4 peasants, fanatics, urban militia and mouted seageants would be able to beat a spanish cav heavy army that is controlled by a general with similar skill level, i can guarantee that i will loose 99% vs my clanm8s in 1v1 with that senario .. do you not agree?

Paolai's 10% is a bit extreme as well but i think he is just trying to put his point across ..

imo if you are a skilled general then you will win the majority of your online battles especially with so many inexperienced generals in the foyer, but sadly part of that skill is picking a good army .. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
didnt you read my post?

i did happen to say that thier is skill in chosing your army, a skilled player will not take a weak army, because he has had the experiance and knows better, its skill.. albiet minor, but skill no less. Tell me, how can army choice be considered any thing else but skill?

[ErikJansen]

I've created a monster http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Alrowan]

well ive just come back from a grand battle with nash... and from what was played, it was amazing

i took my english inf army, he took his tough 1v1 army.

basically if one watches the replay its obvious with my army nash will trounce me, but when you play well, you can prove this wrong.

make that 11 battles undeafeted with my english inf now

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Sounds like you want a challenge Alrowan...

Too bad I avoid 1v1, cause my superior team picking skill is less obvious there

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Louis,

[FearofNC]

cbr:

the last colum is not for support costs... that is delt with in other places in the files... the last colum is clearly marked "special" and it sits right next to the "elite cav" modifier..

it is true that when the ai adds all the modifiers and displays them during f1 that fmaa and cmaa have the same "armour" .. this means they will be the same in h2h fighting... the difference is in their ability to withstand missle attacks... with the larger shield... fmaa resit missles better than cmaa..

stop beating me to death on the hospitilars... i knew when i posted it was the other way around... i just never expected anyone to go and look http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

mith: currently i can move units all the way to the map edge... just like in stw or mi... the devs said they fixed this but there are still ways. attacking while deployment was something i wrote the devs about in mi... after a half dozen email with graham(cadev) they said they had fixed it... well ... its harder to do now in mtw... i cant attack anywhere on the screen like in stw... just 50% of the enemies deploy zone in 1v1..

alrowan: nash is very good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif beating him with an inf army does say something.... can i have a shot?

[Mithrandir]

So what this about a morale bonus if you have a lot of elite units ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

-noob-

[FearofNC]

+2 if i remember correctly

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ May 01 2003,15:12)]+2 if i remember correctly
Care to beat me in a 1v1 online now NC ?

[CBR]

Well I have the excel sheet here and can look at all the formulas and where they are linked from. In the unit def sheet support cost is not dealt with anywhere else but the last columns.

You have base support cost, Elite or not elite, cav or not cav and special. They are just multipliers to get the final result in Total. Only one that doesnt fit is Lancers that only has 17 as Chiv knights. Either it was a mistake or they just didnt change the values in the excel because its is 17 in crusader prod file and not 21.

The special column is, as I can see it, simply a fudge to get different support cost for some units. As you can see all the crusader knights have cheaper support cost compared to chiv knights.

FMAA and CMAA has same total armour value so they have same resistance against missile from the front. Armour value is only for missile attack while defense value is only for h2h.

CBR

[FearofNC]

"The special column is, as I can see it, simply a fudge to get different support cost for some units. As you can see all the crusader knights have cheaper support cost compared to chiv knights." - or could this be a hidden multiplier?? in online tests there is a difference.. it has to come from somwhere..


is that why when i time my pav shots to land when the other guys pavs lower their shield to aim i get more kills ??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif shield size and/or presence does matter when the ai caculates the chance of kill on a missle strike...

sure mith... let me finish up posting and ill cya online http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ErikJansen]

Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ May 01 2003,11:16)]Sounds like you want a challenge Alrowan...
I've beaten him for you allready Louis, no need for you to get your hands dirty http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Pick an all Janissary army and his men will crap their pants and rout before you've even engaged them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Btw 12 Jannies, 12 Elite units... gimme that +2 morale boost http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[FearofNC]

lol... all janny have a 1.2 elite modifier... that means 5 jany units = 6 elite units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif 12(1.2) =14.4 elite units

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ May 01 2003,22:49)]or could this be a hidden multiplier?? in online tests there is a difference.. it has to come from somwhere....
And what are the results of these test? which unit is better?

I dont know if pav arbs becomes easier to hit when they are just about to fire..maybe, I dont know if the battle engine goes into suchs details. As the pavise gives +3 armour it will mean a lot if you can fire at them when either their shields are lowered or if shot at from the rear.

From the list of morale modifiers we know the following:

Outnumbered 2 to 1: -4 (see below)
Outnumbered 3 to 1: -12 (depends on quality of troop, elite only afraid of elite, etc.)

And that is AFAIK all we know really

CBR

[CBR]

Ok I just looked through the list of modifiers again and spotted something that I had not thought about before.

Now all units have a chance of going impetuous and the same thing with cav units... that actually has a morale effect:

Impetuous Charge: +4 (when Knights charge automatically)

If we look at "Effects chance of becomming inpetuous, and some other morale effects. Default is NORMAL." in the crusader prod file we see the following:

Feudal: UNCONTROLLED
Hospitaller: NORMAL
Santiago: NORMAL
Templar: NORMAL
Teutonic: UNCONTROLLED
Lancer: UNCONTROLLED
Chivalric: UNCONTROLLED

So some of the knights have a higher chance of attacking without orders but if they do, they apparently have +4 in morale. Didnt know about that +4 bonus and I dont know how long it lasts.

That might explain why some cav units feels better in certain situations as they dont rout as some other unit might do. And maybe why they sometimes just dont follow your orders but continue to pursue in a frenzy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

CBR

[Puzz3D]

CBR,

That +4 morale for impetuous charging is in the Strategy Guide, and has been posted here at the org before. There is also a morale bonus if a unit is "winning", and a morale penalty if a unit is "loosing". Once a unit engages, its morale is going to fluctuate a lot since the killing is determined by a weighted random number. Units can loose up to -8 morale if they are loosing the fight, and infantry can loose up to -14 morale if they are loosing to cavalry. Units can gain up to +6 morale is they are winning.

I'm not aware of any morale bonus for elite units, but units do suffer less morale penalty if they see a "lesser" unit rout than if they see an equal or higher unit type rout. The penalty is up to -12 morale for seeing two friendly units that it cares about rout. Units of a lesser type are only considered as 1/2 a unit for this calculation.

There is a +4 morale bonus for units that outnumber the enemy in the area by 3:1. There is also a +8 morale bonus for routing two or more enamy units. These two bonuses can combine (4 + 8 = 12) if the remaining enemy units in the area are outnumberd by more than 3:1.

There is also a morale penalty for being outnumbered. It ranges from -4 for 2:1 to -12 got 10:1. This penalty also takes into consideration the quality and speed of the enemy units.

I strongly doubt that unit animations, such as the pav abr firing, makes a difference in chance of being hit. Likewise, the shield description or the shield's graphic depiction wouldn't make a difference either. These are colorful descriptions and eye candy. It's the numerical value of the armor and the size of the target that's important. Of course, you can set up tests to check this stuff out, but these test are very tedious and difficult to conduct. I did do a test on shields back in Sept which showed that they do only add protection from missle to the front, and I reported that result here at the org.

I bought the Strategy Guide when the game first came out, and that's what I use for a reference to the units. There are some mistakes in it and the shield modifiers are not discussed, so you have to look at the spreadsheet to understand them.


NC,

My post wasn't directed specifically at you NC. More than one player claimed to know about hidden stats, and left everyone hanging for an answer. That type of debating tactic causes confusion in people's minds, and might make them think there is something unfair about the game that they may never be able to figure out. I think the battles get better as more players understand the game mechanics and how to buy an army. The battles become more tactical when everyone is at a high level of understanding. If 2 players became so good that they could play perfect tactics and counter tactics then the luck factor would decide the winner, but it's not so easy to play a mistake free game.

Maybe by hidden bonuses you meant things which are not readily apparent to newbies. There is a lot which is not readily apparent to new players. The game has a huge learning curve, especially with 12 factions and over 60 unit types with 3 unit classes. STW had 1 faction, 14 units types, 2 classes and no weapon or armor upgrades. Those days are gone, never to return, unless you play a mod or use strict rules for army choice.

I think the v0w2a0 lancer might not be such a great choice. That unit costs 1415 florins. I'm going to field less expensive cav than that which means my infanty will be stronger than yours. My infantry can also beat your lancers. I'll have 4 arbs to your 3, so I'll win the shootout which will force you to charge. That should allow me to get some favorable infantry/lancer matchups.

However, I'm not a 1v1 expert. I find team games much more enjoyable, and good team play can compensate for somewhat inferior unit choices. Recognizing in November that the Byz and Spanish had cost advantages over other factions my approach was to use Italian and later French. By the end of January, players were getting so good with their Byz and Spanish that I had to switch to what I think is the slightly better HRE faction, and that has been working fine for me in team games. I'm not talking about newbies. I'm talking about invitation games with all vets. When I host games, I don't tell players not to use Byz or Spanish. If they feel the need to use one of those factions then that's ok. The unbalance of those 2 factions doesn't seem to be enough to force me into using one of them myself as of yet, and we only have a few days left to go for Viking Invasion. So, I can say that I played over 1000 games between Nov and May without using either Byz or Spanish, except for one exception in a CWC game, and I won most of my games.

[Div Hunter]

Most of the 'special' or 'uber' unit combinations that people are talking about I thought were pretty obvious. The shield modifiers ect and subtle stats like that may elude the newest players such as myself but realy who couldn't figure a3 pav arbs are better than ones with a2 a1 or a0? And isn't it almost blindingly obvious that Lancers with w3 are going to get kills faster than ones without weapon upgrades. Come on guys, it's all about the tactics you want to use in game as to what army you bring along. Whomever has superiour tactics (this includes army selection) will win. Alot has to do with awareness and knowing which units to watch more closly. Most cav get easy kills because the enemy wasn't watching close enough and covering the vulnerable units. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[FearofNC]

my 16k lancer army in action

v3w0a0 alan cav
v0w0a3 pav
v0w0a2 pav
v0w0a2 pav
v0w0a3 pav
v3w1a0 fmaa
v3w1a0 fmaa
v3w1a0 fmaa
v3w1a0 fmaa
v0w2a0 lancer
v0w2a0 lancer
v0w2a0 lancer
v0w0a0 lancer
v0w0a0 lancer
v0w1a0 knight of santaigo
v0w1a0 knight of santaigo

i used it in a 4v4 match vs very good oppents... the guy i was faced agaisnt had spanish too.. amp also had a strong lancer army... he routed one of the top 10 players in under a minute from the start of the game.
download replay (http://www.fearfulways.com/downloads/spanishattack.zip)

the next game i used my spanish counter army (16k)

alan cav
4 pavs
5 byz inf
2 napthas
2 byz cav arch
3 pro cav

at start i was on right agasint a lancer heavy army commanded by an very good general.. i was sussesful in countering his spanish lancer charge...but barley.. my key tatic is napthas...
download replay (http://www.fearfulways.com/downloads/spanishcounter.zip)

[FearofNC]

div:

a good example of this was the wolf v fear war... during witch all of the fears were using a3 pavs... this was not common knowalage at the time ( most players were using v2w0a0 ) and none of the wolves in any of the logfiles were seen using them.... we absolutly dominated all of the missle wars.. this lead to a great many victories that might otherwise have not been so.

btw .. multiple tests confirm that an a3 pav will slaughter a v4 pav that costs twice as much.. when this was only know by a few.. it was a huge atvantage.

[baz]

i fully agree NC, it was not till i lost a few missile battles so badly that i found out .. of course nowadays you get everyone using a3 pavs .. it held out just long enough till VI imo http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Paolai]

I usually use a2 on pavs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Swoosh So]

I dont really see the advantage of winning the pav battle its hardly the deciding factor in battles with all pavs being v tired/ehausted by the end of the exchange, there are many examples of this my own replays 1 vs elitebolim when he won the arb battle but lost the game and in the warbelt fucy v poali just to name a few.

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ May 02 2003,05:39)]I dont really see the advantage of winning the pav battle its hardly the deciding factor in battles with all pavs being v tired/ehausted by the end of the exchange, there are many examples of this my own replays 1 vs elitebolim when he won the arb battle but lost the game and in the warbelt fucy v poali just to name a few.
because it frces the enemy to charge, and charging is always hard.Either you dont use the units charge, or you do but expose their flanks a bit.Also easier to do unit-matches when the enemy charges you.

[Swoosh So]

Yes but not that difficult if u dont have mouse lag, most defenders are pretty static giving you the edge in attack http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Shahed]

Comment on armored pavs:

I used armor 2-3 pavs, always. I'm surprised to see that no one thought about it. Better armor = more suvival in missile attack.

That everyone knew from the beginning, so no big secret really ?.

[spacecadet]

I rarely put more armour on my pavs, and then its only when i have around 100 florins left over from buying the rest of my army. This doesnt make very much difference to whether i win a shootout or not as ive fought many battles where my opponent has bought much more upgraded pavs and still won the shootout.

Space

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Alrowan]

the most deciding factor in any pav battle is actually fatigue. Pavs with more fatigue wont kill as much of the enemy as less are shooting, so watch you dont run them everywhere

[ELITEofGAZOZ]

Just my 2 cents:

Studying all the stats might help u to understand why u have lost but it is not the key to win a game.

[Wolf_Nashwan]

Paolai i must say i disagree with u saying:
i think that also a player like me with Spanish, can beat a player that won the last 2 1v1 tourneys, this is the point...(((so no skill needed, only a strong faction/army))).

First of all i must say LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
ok lets say a newB played 1 week, learnt from the best veteran the most powerfull spainish army he can get, do u belive he would have a chance against us ? well not me anyway. ( this is 1 proff that skills require )

and u said if u had a spanish army u would win the both tourneys, hmm lets say the noob that only played 1 week was in the tourney, and allso have his spanish army, wouldend u beat him? meaby 1 week is to little / well even some mouth wouldent be enogh.

So here u see * Experience (ur total skill) u learn from battles, allso u learn wich units to pick and wich not to pick. (And this leads u to victorys in the battlefield)

Amp is a very good unit picker http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif he can came up with very great armies, this he learn from trainings experience.
Allso, dont u think Amp would beat a noob rusher with same army?)

I sometimes sit home and think out good armies and tactics. Thats a way of skill i learnt from the battlefield. dont u agree ?

the thing is / this is meaby what u tryed to mean.
We all here do agree with u that spains lancers is the strongest horse in game,(yes) but. So this would mean that the greatest unit pickers would choose spain right ?
but here is the place where honours matter, i mean example, u woulend select a spain horse rush against a normal balanced russian army or do this against a noob would u?. it would be impossible for him and this is (unfair).

So select armys faction armys that is in same level as the opponents army/skill, this will make fairer and funner battles.

veterans using horse rushing armys or byzantine inf rush can be beaten, with the right army (example once i played amp 5 games in row) i had been thinking in about 30 mins for the great army against him, and it worked all games.

and here i did use an army with the same level as amps skill and army.

words from sun tsu: if u neither know ur self or the enemy u will lose almost any battle, if u know urself but not the enemy u will lose battles, if ur enemy but not urself u will lose battles, but if u know ur self and the enemy u will be victorios in almost every battle.

To newbs who reading this, u can use spain horse rushes or what ever u want against the veterans), it would just be more challenge for ur opponents, and funner game for u / but rember if u win there isent so much to brag with. (would just be a good battle).

Well i donno if many do agree with me, well this is what me and alrowan understood in our conversation.

Wolf_Nashwan

[Paolai]

....you are talking about noobs...I have talked about no skill player, its different I think. I said, a no skill player can win on MTW much more than on STW/MI, and also a player like me with a strong faction, can beat the winner of the last 2 1v1 tourneys, this is my opinion. Thats means to me, that the skill/talent on MTW is less important than STW/MI

[Wolf_Nashwan]

Dont u remember all the monk rushes, and all the heavy cav rushers ? and the half monk and half cav rushes?

and here in mtw they have allso programmed something that if u buy more than 4 of 1 unit (so does the 5th cost more, and 6th even more and so on...)

poalai i even remember rushes was forbidden in mi and stw, the time they had no missails ppl would call em chickens.

now in mtw ppl dont care about rushers, cuz it is much more possible to beat it now, it is only the rushes with spain and all lancers that sometimes works, but as i said, it can be beaten with the right army.

Wolf_Nashwan

[Paolai]

well...these are opinions...I was never afraid by a rusher by a no skill player...this is the point Nash, also a monks rusher on STW without skill couldnt win vs a skill player, now instead also a no skill player (not noobs, a no skill player) can beat a stronger player only using a strong army that he can copy by anotherone. I hope its more clear now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

[Wolf_Nashwan]

Paolai now i understand abit more what u meant, but in the first mail wasent so easy to understand what u meant, but there is one thing, so all the times great strong veterans in stw and mtw losing against ppl with what u say no skill but with greater army, what was that ?

i am most surely its happend, meaby even to u that u lost against a player with what u call no skill but with a greater army.

hmm paolai could you explain more about what u mean by the word no skill ?

[Magyar Khan]

nash if u got as much posts as 3 times your age i make a signature like paolai has.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]I have talked about no skill player, its different I think. I said, a no skill player can win on MTW much more than on STW/MI, and also a player like me with a strong faction, can beat the winner of the last 2 1v1 tourneys, this is my opinion. Thats means to me, that the skill/talent on MTW is less important than STW/MI

Even though I have only a limited experience of STW, I agree with this. Shoggy is a game with slicker, simpler mechanics, less units and therefore less variables. MTW feels much more "random".

Any game designer (or veteran GM of roleplaying games) knows that randomness increases the chances of the "underdog", the weaker side. The critical hit rule in many roleplaying games is a good example of this. If it is used, a combatant may deal double or even greater damage to an enemy with a high die roll. The "monsters" in a game are usually the underdogs, as the players are expected to survive most monster encounters and thus live to advance the story. However, sometimes the monsters get lucky and may incapacitate or kill a Player Character with a single good crit. Without the critical rule, it wouldn't be possible for the monster to slay a PC with a single blow (if the GM is fair. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)

I'm sure that if me and Paolai play enough games, we'd both win some and lose some (even if he picks Spain and I do not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif). The same holds true for most vets around here; I believe that a sizable part of the hardcore Total War players have reached a high enough level of skill to occasionally beat _any_ player in the world.

[Alrowan]

well ill stick to my view

tonight i didnt lose a game, and i played a mix of players..... so what does that mean?

it means tomorrow night ill lose some games, but if i dont then, i wonder how to improve... losing helps me get better, and armies i chose got nothing to do with that...

i will never blame my loss on my army, or thier army, but on my own generalship

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ May 01 2003,22:49)]I'm not aware of any morale bonus for elite units, but units do suffer less morale penalty if they see a "lesser" unit rout than if they see an equal or higher unit type rout. The penalty is up to -12 morale for seeing two friendly units that it cares about rout. Units of a lesser type are only considered as 1/2 a unit for this calculation.

There is a +4 morale bonus for units that outnumber the enemy in the area by 3:1. There is also a +8 morale bonus for routing two or more enamy units. These two bonuses can combine (4 + 8 = 12) if the remaining enemy units in the area are outnumberd by more than 3:1.

There is also a morale penalty for being outnumbered. It ranges from -4 for 2:1 to -12 got 10:1. This penalty also takes into consideration the quality and speed of the enemy units.
Yuuki,

The last sentence of the quote somehow contradict with the first one.

There is no bonus for elite units, but there is a negative modifier for non elite outnumbered by elite, and it might be larger than non elite outnumbered by non elite. I also wonder if it does exist on a 1v1 basis without outnumbering.

I think this a worth a test.Let's take 2 spears, one vs an elite sword and one vs a non elite sword (provided they have the same att/def/ etc...) and see which spear rout first.

Then same test with 1 spear vs 2 elite sword and 1 spear vs 2 non elite sword, and see which one rout first, and if there is a neg modifier for outnumbered by elite...

If possible non flanking, nothing like that, just to limit the scope of morale modifier.

My gut feeling is yes, there is an additional penalty when beaten and or outnumbered by non cav elite (with cav it is worse...)... But let's see the how the tests are going...

I am available to test that point.

Louis,

[Wolf_Nashwan]

YO ALROWAN http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

heheh

i can do u a favour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif i have thinked out very strong armies JUST for u http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Pay bacK ´http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
here i mean when u beat me last time i was so http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif , i went, made my homework
and now i will help u improve http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

heheh lets to the game sometime tommorow.

Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Crandaeolon]

Can anyone remember who was the first to note that technology tends to improve fastest during wartime? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[DthB4Dishonor]

That is true. I think the quote is necessity is the mother of all invention. When are we in most need but when our lives are endangered (War time).

Also with much larger options we must acknowledge the fact that unit selection has become a skill. Picking your army is now half the fight. However if 2 players both pick strong armies then this portion of the battle is negated and skill plays a larger role.

However if a player picks a strong army while another picks a weak army then the player with the strong army needs less skill to win.

Now there is a thrid point to this. A strong army can be very different depending on if it is 1v1 or 2v2 or 3v3.....Also depending on battle conditions and era. Also depends on your style. If you can impose your armies strengths onto your opponent then you can win. Just like in boxing. There can be 2 boxers that you might rate as "A" class boxers but 1 is a power puncher like mike tyson and 1 is a finesse boxer who uses speed and keeps distance and stays in center of ring like Lennox Lewis.

Although you can argue that both have skill they both have different styles and just so happends that Lewis imposed his style on Tyson. However what if Tyson would've been able to corner Lewis and make it a close quarter brawl then Tyson would've probably won or atleast increased chances of winning.

I'm not saying the game is perfect and I didnt know STW well enough to say that was all that great either but this what we got and I dont think its bad.

P.S. I still think the most skilled player will win 80% - 90% of his battles over not as skilled players.

Paul

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ] If you can impose your armies strengths onto your opponent then you can win.

This is important. Good one Paul, I'm now gonna support that statement and add some thoughts on why selecting an "optimal" army is more important than just the percent difference in stats would indicate.

First, my tourney semifinale match with Aleborg. He was the first Wolf I played in a rather long time, and I took precautions. I had saved Spain and HRE, and picked Spain against Ale's Italy. In the beginning of the battle, I carefully counted Ale's units and noted their Valour levels, something I never do in "fun" games. I noticed there were only 15 units in vicinity, so I dispatched a group of Lancers to scout the nearby forests. Sure enough, the wily Aleborg had hidden a group of Alans there. In a "fun" battle I probably wouldn't have noticed them, which could have been a serious mistake.

With my Lancers, I expected to defeat Ale's cav in head-on battles and this allowed me to use a different strategy than with other factions. I did make a bad mistake in timing and my lack of reserves allowed one of Ale's cav units to break through a gap in my infantry line, resulting in center defeat for me, but I concentrated on the flanks, using the power and mobility of Lancers to rout his tired and depleted infantry after winning his cav in head-on combat.

In retrospect, it was rather badly played by me, and I have to admit it was the heavy cavalry who won the battle for me. I would have played very differently with, say, the HRE. (I saved the HRE for the finale partly because it's a strong faction and I'm comfortable with it, partly because of style reasons. I like the HRE crest. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif)

Now, a slightly modified copy-paste from my ongoing argument at the .com:

(The argument was about whether to use spearmen in armies or not)

One army consists of 4 units of chivalric knights (v1), 4 units of arbalesters(v1a3), 6 units of swordsmen (4 CMAA, v3 and 2 Militia Sergeants, v4) and 2 units of Swiss halberdiers (v1). The other army has 4 knights(v1), 4 arbs(v1a3), 4 Order Foot (v2a1) and 4 CMAA (v2w1).

These are setups at roughly 15k florins.

The missile units and cavalry are of equal quality in both armies, but the infantry is interesting. Because of the relatively high price of Order Foot soldiers, the second army can't afford to have v3 CMAA. And, those Order Foot would lose in combat against either the CMAA or the Militia Sergeants of the other side. So would the weaker CMAA.

Ok, no matter, superior tactics can counter the "weaknesses" in army setup, and the Swiss Halbs are used as cavalry screens anyway, so that would put 4 Order Foot and 4 CMAA against 4 CMAA and 2 Militia Sergeants of slightly higher quality. Not a bad matchup. But Here's the point. The second army can't hope to commit an equal number of units (say, 4 Order Foot and 2 CMAA) and win the infantry battle. They have to commit all eight, and they have to _flank_ the higher-quality units. (Simply reinforcing the spearman line with the swords from second rank won't be sufficient. It _might_ work if a fresh swordsman reserve is brought into the fray at just the right time, but that's too much gambling for my taste, considering the low morale of spearmen.)

In effect, the 4-sword 2-militia infantry either ties up a greater number of enemy units, or wins the center. Both are bad for the spearman army, for obvious reasons.

Bringing "better" quality units actually creates flanking opportunities, and I can't see how this could be detrimental to a tactical doctrine based on mobility. (The guy kept insisting that an army with a center core of spear units promotes mobility in tactics, as opposed to attrition-based tactics with swordsman-based infantry. I just can't see why a swordsman army couldn't use mobile tactics.)

[Paolai]

well, I think not Paul, I think that with a stong army you can simply double click on a frontal charge and you can close quite easy a match also vs a skill player that are using a weak army. Surely you can beleive that with a strong army you need to flank and do nice moves...instead you dont need it...sadly you can simply double click...sigh. Btw, I dont think that it is difficult to choose an army, I think this is the difference between me and the players that consider this game more than 50% skill needed. The difference between MTW and STW is that on STW with a very weak army, a talented player can win vs a no skill player: look at the fun Magy's army on Totomi...his army was very weak, but he won most of the times with that army. BTW thats true Paul, this is the game we have, and this game is surely better than Pretorians and others, but not better than STW/MI (my opinion), and I hope that Rome TW will be better than MTW.

[Mithrandir]

I dont agree Paolai http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

Often noobs have Byz (most "overpowered faction" according to most) and (even V4 byz inf etc.) but use the VG's just like Byz inf for the frontal charge and their cav are either just sitting back a bit (they're too busy with the inf still or they simply forgot them) or used vs cav (which will lose to most other cav) or to attack the center too, a more experienced player will usually still beat this because he'll know that his infantry will stand little chance for victory, but just uses them told while his cav will attack the rear.
> Experience beats a strong army.

Have you been beaten by a noob lately who did just that, a frontal Charge Paolai ?

ps: Read my Sam on Samday post please http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.
I'm about as bad in STW as Elmo claims to be with MTW http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif but I'll still go online http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

[Puzz3D]

NC,

I have logfiles which show that v0w0a3 pav arbs were in regular use by several players by the first week in Dec 2002. Many players have been using that unit for about 5 months now. My own feeling was and still is that adding weapon and armor upgrades in WE/MI hurt the MP game, but the majority of people here at the org wanted those upgrade features added.



Crand,

The sword army is better suited for an attempt to win the frontline fighting without flanking tactics because the unit is a relatively fast killer. You would want the fastest killing units to reduce the time that the enemy units have to flanking you. The sword frontline is really what forced the spears from the field. Spears are logically the unit of choice on the frontline for a flanking strategy, but they don't stand long enough against swords. You really have to use swords or polearms in the frontline now with spears on the flanks if you use them at all. You can adopt a flanking strategy with a sword frontline, but perhaps a polearm frontline is somewhat better suited for that.

[DthB4Dishonor]

Hail,

Paolai
I'm agreeing with you on the point that army selection is a big part of the battle in MTW. Now a very strong skilled general with a weak army can more easily lose vs a not as skilled general than was the case in STW. However a strong general with a strong army cant lose to a noob who just rushes with any frequency.

Points being:
In STW there were fewer units than now. In MTW there are many more units abroad a wider range of conditions and eras. These units are more specialized for specific task and conditions so now there is a bigger discrepancy between the good units and the bad units and armies (depending on florin amount, era and battle conditions).

Any skilled player in MTW knows what a good army is. Army selection is a large part of the game now and even a noob as you have stated knows a strong army. The difference is the noob just wants to be competitive at first and will always take a strong army to be as competitive as he can.
A skilled player loses to a noob because he wants to test himself with a weak or non-optimal army not because the game is that horrible.

You can either pick a strong army yourself. This will make the game more skill based since you wont lose because of units being inferior. You can then beat noobs 99.99% of the time again. Or if a skilled player wishes to test his skills and uses a weak army then that is a concious decission he makes. A skilled player can use diferring levels of weak armies depending on how confident he thinks his skills are above those of his opponents.


Cranda:
Yeah, the fast killing rates of swords have relinquished spears to flank positions. They are there to either
A) Confront enemy cav who attempt to flank
B) Tie up enemy sword and axe units attempting to flank

The good thing about spears like order foot is that when in 3-4 ranks deep they cover alot of territory and they can stand for a long period of time (if not flanked) tying up enemy units and making flank longer and taking more time to go around. However they are what I call an auxillary unit no really meant to win a fight just to give time for rest of army to win it. I would caution against using spears as center front line infantry.

[ErikJansen]

Its not unusual for me to bring Order foot to tie down a flank while my CMAA decimate the really imortant units. Maybe they be no much effective, but they hold and gain time for you to finish off what else you might need to. Tie down enemy cav in a duel and bring spears up to hold them there while your shocks do the biz. Its pretty common knowledge.

Btw all Honor to you Paul for having fun with Retainers vs Lancers and Chivs. Thats what its all about http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Alrowan]

ok nash, ill face you again... mind you dont try to counter pick my other army though... i tend to play a wide variety

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]Spears are logically the unit of choice on the frontline for a flanking strategy, but they don't stand long enough against swords.

IMO the spear units do not currently have a sufficiently useful function on the battlefield. The relatively slow combat resolution in MTW means there's plenty of time for flanking maneuvers even in a swords-against-swords situation, at least in my experience.

[Wolf_Nashwan]

LOL

Alrowan and all other listen ( there is 1 good thing with balanced armys ), its the hardest to select 1 army against it, if u see what i mean.

Now u wonder why i said i have a army for u right?

well i mean (ur style and tactic).

Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Magyar Khan]

spears miss about 2 morale or more to be effective enuf. since a month or so i dont use any spears and i got the impression my army is a bit more effective.

the game misses effective horsearchery to harrass enemy lines and crack the little nut of the defenders position.

[starkhorn]

Quote[/b] (Magyar Khan @ May 03 2003,06:39)]spears miss about 2 morale or more to be effective enuf. since a month or so i dont use any spears and i got the impression my army is a bit more effective.

the game misses effective horsearchery to harrass enemy lines and crack the little nut of the defenders position.
I've found boyars to quite effective at the horse-archer role and then for the move-in for the kill.

[Alrowan]

well nash, when i play you it seems you want me to take my same army... now thats no fair... cause your expecting it and then you know your enemy, and i dont, giving you the upper hand. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Puzz3D]

Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ May 03 2003,07:23)]well nash, when i play you it seems you want me to take my same army... now thats no fair... cause your expecting it and then you know your enemy, and i dont, giving you the upper hand. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Alrowan,

A few posts before this you said "I never blame my army for my losses" and earlier that the game is 100% skill, but now you are saying the army does make a difference. I think army choice, luck, strategic skill and tactical skill are all factors in determining the outcome of a battle. Tactics appear to be tricks when you are unaware of them.


Louis,

I was using the term "bonus" to mean a postive value applied to a unit. I'm not aware of any morale bonus to elite troops. The test you propose to measure this bonus won't work because fighting is involved which makes morale fluctuate a lot. I have a method for directly measuring unit morale, but it takes many runs to measure a single positional situation. I'd do the test if I saw anything in battles which made me think that a bonus to elite troops existed, but I don't see anything that would make me think that.

If you want to use the term bonus to include a negative factor applied to enemy units, then that is less precise than using the terms bonus and penalty as separate effects. It is stated in the strategy guide that when outnumbered unit class and speed is a factor in the size of the morale "penalty".

[Alrowan]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ May 04 2003,01:09)]
Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ May 03 2003,07:23)]well nash, when i play you it seems you want me to take my same army... now thats no fair... cause your expecting it and then you know your enemy, and i dont, giving you the upper hand. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Alrowan,

A few posts before this you said "I never blame my army for my losses" and earlier that the game is 100% skill, but now you are saying the army does make a difference. I think army choice, luck, strategic skill and tactical skill are all factors in determining the outcome of a battle. Tactics appear to be tricks when you are unaware of them.
no-where did i say army didnt matter, rather ive been saying that your army choice isnt the main factor in a win. My point i am making is this:

no matter what army you chose, you will always need skill and knowldege to use it effectivly. It takes skill in choosing an army, and skill in playing that army to maximum efectivness. Army choice though is never the solefactor of any strong general.

[LRossaLordJimi]

Quote[/b] ]spears miss about 2 morale or more to be effective enuf. since a month or so i dont use any spears and i got the impression my army is a bit more effective.
I'm agree,spears became a disaster with many formations taked around:upgraded cav and many heavy sword infantry.Spears have low morale,many many florins are needed to improve it;they are not effective also against cav where they get bonus and if they start to route it's the end... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif They just look the enemy and start to run like me when i see Krast's picture http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I just kicked off this evil order foot and feudal sergeants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Ave

[ShadesPanther]

I would use Itallian Inf as they are pretty good but i wouldnt use anything else because they rout easy as Jimi said. I Might put Pikemen on the flank to stop cav flanking or at least make them think twice but i wouldnt really use spears

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (ShadesPanther @ May 03 2003,18:02)]I would use Itallian Inf as they are pretty good but i wouldnt use anything else because they rout easy as Jimi said. I Might put Pikemen on the flank to stop cav flanking or at least make them think twice but i wouldnt really use spears
orderfoot and italian infantry are identical http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif .Pikemen have 0 base morale IIRC (dont play late much) so thy're even worse, though hving better anti0cav defense IIRS (dont lay late much).

The only reason I use spears (orderfoot) is to hold in a line of 3 or so, usually absorbing 2 or even 3 enemy units when facing non-vets.

[ShadesPanther]

Quote[/b] (Mithrandir @ May 04 2003,15:09)]orderfoot and italian infantry are identical http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
No they are not the Italian infantry are better as they look cooler http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[LRossaLordJimi]

Quote[/b] ]Italian infantry are better as they look cooler
Yes,they are cooler because they are nice italian guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Ave