The Byzantine Symbol

[DemonArchangel]

What does the cross with a 2nd bar through it mean? Is it the cross that constantine saw etched onto the sun?

[rasoforos]

i suppose this one. although the byzantine war banner was different. a 2 headed eagle in black in a red background

[Nowake]

I think it has something to do with the tomb of Christ ...

[ShadesPanther]

Yes there is a relic in constantinople that looks like it. Cant remember its significance though

[kataphraktoi]

The little 2nd Bar is foot support, on some byzantine icons u can notice christ's feet on the 2nd bar.

Hmmm if u want to be malevolent do what some byzantines did and substitute the 2nd bar with a crescent, the crescent represents the trampling of the cross over the muslim crescent... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif they think of everything.

hmmm heres a little tidbit:
The inventor of Greek Fire lived in UMMAYAD territory when he invented it, the army commander in Attaleia (South West Turkey) smuggled Callinicus from Baalbek, that meant that the Ummayads had Greek Fire under their noses and lost it cos the guy who made it was smuggled from Syria ahahyahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaha coudln;t believe it when i read it.

Finders keepers.

[Papewaio]

Syria smuggling WMD who would have ever have thought of that? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

The byzantine flag originally had a crecent and star but it was "islamised" when the turks invaded.just a small peice of info,cuz we were'nt using any before the turks came http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Faisal when I meant crescent I did not mean the islamic one I meant the an alternate cross where the 2nd bar was substituted with the crescent representing the cross victorious over islam, you can find this byzantine manuscripts and illustrations, it was passed down to the Russians as well. Ivan the Terrible erected these crosses on his buildings celerating his victory over the Khanates of southern Russia.

Say what do Arabs think of Turks, did they contribute anything to Islam besides expanding its borders??????????///

[Leet Eriksson]

they did us one favour,they reversed the cross victorious over islam into the crecent victorious over christianity http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif the only other thing they did was keep the muslim country in one peice,if it were'nt for lawrence and his band of mercenaries that he recruited from najd....

[kataphraktoi]

hahaha how true faisal how true faisal, the turks did reverse that triumph, it wasn't till after the 1500's that we reversed the trend on islam again.

ah the swinging pendulum of history.

But in this case it wasn;t the cross over the crescent, it was the cross plus dollar sign over the crescent leading to what we have as high imperialism leading to ww1.....

But in all seriousness faisal I meant cultural contributions of the Turks to the islamic world and the Arab world in particular.

[Leet Eriksson]

me and you probably have something in common,we both hate them for their intolerance of the people they conquered.The only contribution was inventing 3 types of arabic writing called El Madrasah El Othmania wich one of them is common nowadays.other than that we hate them,the massacres they did to us,and their racist approach to try and assimilate us.Thanks to lawrence all this have changed.

[kataphraktoi]

Faisal have you read Byzantine attitudes to Arabs????

While the monarchs of the West were considered "Archons" (rulers) the Byzantine Emperors considered the Caliphs "brothers", this in part reflects a previous affinity between Byzantium and Sassanid Persia.

Turks draw borders with swords, Byzantines and Arabs draw borders by civilised agreements and if all else fails a nice little border raid sufficed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Axelthorpe]

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ April 18 2003,13:18)]Faisal have you read Byzantine attitudes to Arabs????

While the monarchs of the West were considered "Archons" (rulers) the Byzantine Emperors considered the Caliphs "brothers", this in part reflects a previous affinity between Byzantium and Sassanid Persia.

Turks draw borders with swords, Byzantines and Arabs draw borders by civilised agreements and if all else fails a nice little border raid sufficed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Call me stupid, but I thought the turks were arabs?

By the way, which countries/kingdoms are considered arabic?
In game? Almohads and Egyptians?
Historically?

[rasoforos]

Quote[/b] (Axelthorpe @ April 29 2003,03:40)]
Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ April 18 2003,13:18)]Faisal have you read Byzantine attitudes to Arabs????

While the monarchs of the West were considered "Archons" (rulers) the Byzantine Emperors considered the Caliphs "brothers", this in part reflects a previous affinity between Byzantium and Sassanid Persia.

Turks draw borders with swords, Byzantines and Arabs draw borders by civilised agreements and if all else fails a nice little border raid sufficed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Call me stupid, but I thought the turks were arabs?

By the way, which countries/kingdoms are considered arabic?
In game? Almohads and Egyptians?
Historically?
The turks are not arabs , the Iranians are not Arabs either. Those two nations are often confused as being Arabic. The turks belong to a race related to the mongolians and they come from central/east asia. You can find them mentioned in Chinese texts far long b4 they appeared on western texts.

[Leet Eriksson]

The Almohads are not arabic,they were berbers,but they have been "arabicised" earlier.the egyptians were arabs,but in the high period they switch to mamelukes,who were of slavic origin(mostly that is).Izuldeen bin Abdul-Azees declared the mameluke sultanate pagan,until each and every mameluke prince "sells" himself to freedom,where they pay a certain amount of gold to the poor(more like charity),and then they would be set free.

The turks however,as rasforos suggested are not arabs,they just adopted persian/arabic style culture.

[Axelthorpe]

Ok, thanks for the quick answer

Another thing:
I can understand the berbic origin of the Almohads, but what with the egyptians, that the egyptians where "annexed" by the mameluks? You can't just switch culture

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (Axelthorpe @ April 29 2003,09:50)]Ok, thanks for the quick answer

Another thing:
I can understand the berbic origin of the Almohads, but what with the egyptians, that the egyptians where "annexed" by the mameluks? You can't just switch culture
The Mamelukes were, IIRC, a military force assembled by the Fatimid Dynasty of Egypt, because he was a Shi'ite in a Sunni nation and everyone around him hated him. Therefore he bought Turkish slaves and used them as his army. They were very effective for quite a long time, perhaps a little too effective. After the Mamelukes managed a victory over the Mongols at Ayn Jalut, their leader siezed control of Egypt. They continued to rule as Shi'ites over Sunnis until the Turks came and smashed them.

[solypsist]

wrong forum.

[Leet Eriksson]

Quote[/b] (Axelthorpe @ April 29 2003,09:50)]Ok, thanks for the quick answer

Another thing:
I can understand the berbic origin of the Almohads, but what with the egyptians, that the egyptians where "annexed" by the mameluks? You can't just switch culture
I guess Pablo answered that question http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Faisal mentioned Lawrence (of Arabia).

I am interested in hearing what folks think about him. I know not enough of him to even put forth an opinion (other than he looked skinny in the movie).

[Leet Eriksson]

hes the guy who drived out the turks from the middle east,and managed to make the Al Su'ud family the ruling family,erm,the people who are ruling suadia now,anyways,without him we would all be talking turkish now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[iostephanos]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ April 16 2003,05:02)]The byzantine flag originally had a crecent and star but it was "islamised" when the turks invaded.just a small peice of info,cuz we were'nt using any before the turks came :p
that's not the symbol of the roman empire, but an old flag of byzantium (the city) that you are talking about, and some think that yes, it was the seed for the crescents in the islamic world

the cross graphic used in game is called a slavonic cross, and is of course an orthodox symbol, though not necessarily eastern roman nor modern day greek orthodox; you can read some background here (http://www.byzantines.net/StCyril/cross.htm)

the eastern roman empire called byzantine had some degree of feudalism and heraldry, but apparently not in the frankish, and therefore purist, sense; in general, a lord or high ranking clergy was announced by a flag of the black double headed eagle on yellow; only the emperor was noted by the gold double headed eagle on red. in western rolls of arms, the byzantine emperor was usually represented by this symbol as if it were his coat of arms. the cross between four beta's motif (which also became the foundation for serbia's arms) may have been known earlier, but in the gold & red color scheme it was unique to the palaiologoi

other symbols used on flags at times were the chi-rho, also called a christogram, and apparently a simple black cross on yellow

steph

[iostephanos]

Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ April 15 2003,14:10)]What does the cross with a 2nd bar through it mean? Is it the cross that constantine saw etched onto the sun?
that's a common misconception; constantine didn't see a cross in the sun according to one story, but a christogram, which looks like an english "P" over an english "X"; whether he saw a cross or christogram though, it was the christogram that he had painted onto his mens' shields

steph

[Red Peasant]

Quote[/b] (BlackWatch McKenna @ April 30 2003,18:41)]Faisal mentioned Lawrence (of Arabia).

I am interested in hearing what folks think about him. I know not enough of him to even put forth an opinion (other than he looked skinny in the movie).
Read his autobiographical account of the Arab uprising, 'The Seven Pillars of Wisdom'. It is brilliant, one of my favourite books. Highly recommended.

[Ellesthyan]

The real Byzantine flag should be a black eagle on a golden background, as the HRE used. Only emperors were allowed to use a golden background, and the eagle was the symbol of the Roman empire.

[kataphraktoi]

The double headed eagle was known in Byzantium as early as the 10th cent. AD but used as the insignia of Byzantine Emperors under the Comneni.

A griffin was quite common. Just a small tidbit.

As for the inhabitants of Al-Misr (Egypt) I believe they fall into two broad identifiable groups

Egyptian Arabs: descended from the Arabs who conquered and settled in Egypt. Also derived from converts to Islam from the indigenous population, since then, however, these converts have adopted Arabic language and culture so as to make them distinctive from the original Christian inhabitants of Egypt who are:

Copts: The word Copt is said to be a corruption of the word "Egypt" or "Aegyptus". Coptic language is the indigenous and original language of Egypt before the Arab conquest. Many Copts are descended from the Egyptian Monophysites who were a strong majority in that region. Only 10% are around today in the country with more immigrating overseas. There is an unofficial "official" persecution of Copts in Egypt with the blind consent, but not the official sponsorhip of the government.

(Mind you, this is for Egypt's case, not the Arabic nations, please do not lump all together.)

[biguth dickuth]

From the time of the komnenoi and after, the official symbol was the crowned, two-headed eagle, wielding a sword.
The empirial symbol was a golden eagle on a "porfyro" (dark-red; don't know the english word) background.

Before 1081 and alexius A' the most usual symbol was the christogram (as mentioned in posts before this one) and several kinds of crosses.
The christogram was also used as a battle symbol by non-roman, christian, western armies.

The cross "thingy" is not the correct symbol of the eastern roman empire for the era of the game but i guess that the developers had already used the eagle enough (a two-headed for novgorod and the russians and a simpe for the polish and the hre).

I think this is about all i know on the subject.

[Rosacrux]

Also, in addition to what has been already written, the Byzantines used extensively as a sort of "imperial banner" a red flag with a white cross (usually white in red, sometimes black in yellow or golden in yellow) with the four "B" (in Greek B sounds like V)

Vasilevs Vasileon, Vasilevonton Vasilevomenon ("King of Kings etc.).