Fall of Constantinople

[Mount Suribachi]

Just finished reading the 3rd and final volume of John Julius Norwich's history of Byzantium http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif The last chapter was awesome, very moving - the might of the Turks, the herioc last stand by the Byzantines. The last night with the service in St Sophia, Constantine XI giving his moving speech (there are 4 things a man should fight and die for - his family, his faith, his country and his king), his rushing into the fray once all was lost never to be seen again...it was stirring stuff Makes me want to play MTW as that purple faction...

Anyways, I thought it would make a great movie with its tale of tragic heroism. Whaddya think? Who should play Constantine XI and Mehmet II?

[BDC]

I am really getting interested in the Byzantiniums... I will have to read up more on them.

[Mount Suribachi]

In that case I really recommend the trilogy by Norwich - or you could get the short history, 3 volumes into 1. I read that 1st and enjoyed it so much I bought the full set http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif trying to remember your John VII from your Andronicus II gets a bit confusing tho http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Heraclius]

I had that exact same thought the first time I finished the book Very well written. I figured the movie could end with a parting shot of the dead Constantine lying among his men, adn the camera panning out with much of Constantinople in flames.

[Shahed]

Good grief.

That kind of ending would make me enlist in the Greek army. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Well it would be good movie anywaz.

[Elwe]

Chalk up another Byzantophile http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Anyone read The Alexiad? Bought it the other day, but haven't had the time to start reading it yet.

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[kataphraktoi]

There is a film proposal for Heraclius's Persian campaigns at the moment, i don;t know whether to take this seriously or not.

Constantine XI the stuff legends are made of, so is he a Roman or a Greek???????

Who wants to debate this, thw Greeks claim him as their own a Greek not a Roman but Constantine claims himself as a ROman EMperor even though he wasn't crowned in COnstantinople.

I borrowed the Alexiad twice but I couldn;t force myself to read it, there is an online copy of the Alexiad full text and also a full text of Michael Psellus's CHronographia.

Penguin Classics

[noramis]

Gah Everytime I go to my bookstore to purchase The Alexiad, they don't have it. They give me the offer to order it, I decline telling myself that I'll go somewhere else and buy it... but two weeks later, I never bought it when it would have been easier to just order it in the first place

Lesson: Order books if they don't have them in stock.

[Gregoshi]

Hello there noramis. Welcome to Total War - Org style. A good general knows how to give orders, so keep practicing and you'll have that book in no time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Mount Suribachi]

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ May 01 2003,03:49)]Constantine XI the stuff legends are made of, so is he a Roman or a Greek???????
Well, he didn't call himself Constantine Palaeologus, he took his mothers name - haven't got the book so can't look it up right now - and his mother was Serbian. So was he a Greek a Roman or a Serb? hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

As for an ending, I figured after all the looting etc and Mehemt has stopped it, done the Muslim thing in St Sophia etc it ends with a big pile of the dead, but you can only recognise Constantine in there due to the imperial insignia on the bottom of his purple boots a la the story in the book. Shot pulls away from bottom of boots, big pile of dead, burning city, roll credits, wipe tears from eyes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Constantine Dragash (Dragases) XI

quarter italian, half serbia, half greek, quarter miscellaneous

Still Roman ........

[Mak]

Thanks for the recommended book -Mount Suribachi needed some new reading material.

I am very fond of playing the Byzantiums also, but I feel they are a bit too good with their basic infantry being so powerful. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I do like the way the game seems to outdate their faction in the latest period, feels like you are battling to save Constantinople from the mentioned tragic fate. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Will research further. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[BDC]

I think a movie would be a bit out of place at the moment... Muslims massacring Christians probably wouldn't go down too well.

[Blackball]

On a slightly related note, I've heard rumors that there'll be a movie version of the novel Gates of Fire about the Spartans' suicidal stand at Thermopylae. Pretty good read, and it'd make a great movie. From what I heard, Bruce Willis is supposed to play Leonidas, the Spartan king.

[Heraclius]

I thought it would be George Clooney. And I'd love a movie of Heraclius's Persian Campaigns http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

As for the Roman vs Greek etc argument, I believe there is an entire thread on that witgh posts exclusively by me, Galestrum, Kataphraktoi and Elwe. However it will be hard to find as we hijacked that thread so the real title might be something like Using Knights Templar in the desert.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Heraclius meet Heraclius

www.thehistorian.co.uk

[Heraclius]

oh god i want that book. I remember you recommended it too me a while ago and I went to the library to get it but they didn't have it. I searched around Barnes $ Noble but couldn't find it there either. Now its finally within my clutches http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif thank you very much, kat, I'm sure it'll be a great read.

[Catulus]

Hi all My first post.

Has anyone read Mika Waltaris book: “Johannes Angleos”? It has been translated something like: “The Dark Angle” (rather bad title if you ask me). It’s about the last days of Constantinople and a man who has “an appointment” with angle of death at the gates of Saint Romanos.
Found this from the net if your interested:
Death of the last Rome (http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20020129IE3)

It’s “historical fiction” but definitely made me interested on Byzantium in general – I can deeply recommend it. I’ve been looking for a good history books about Byzantium ever since I finished it and some titles given here look promising.

Aleoo ee Polis.
-The City has fallen.

[Basileus]

Awesome books norwixh does realy well, ive read the first an dthe last one but i cant seem to get the second book i´ll try to order it on the net i think..would make a great movie though...some day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Heraclius]

Quote[/b] (Catulus @ May 04 2003,07:04)]I’ve been looking for a good history books about Byzantium ever since I finished it and some titles given here look promising.

Aleoo ee Polis.
-The City has fallen.
If you are interested in the Byzantine Empire you should really read Sir John Julius Norwich's Byzantium Trilogy, which is both informative and extremely well written.

[Gregoshi]

Welcome to the Org Catulus. It looks like you've fallen in amongst folks with your same interests. I'll leave you all to discuss your byzness books. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[some_totalwar_dude]

The idea of a movie is nice, but I'm sure Hollywood will screw things up in the historicle accurucy department.

They'r already doing it with movie version of Gates of Fire. Those 200,000 Persian suddenly became 2 milion soldiers... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Swamp Thing]

Mount Suribachi, I agree with you, the Byzantium trilogy by John Juluis Norwich tells an excellent story, but speaking as someone with a BA Honors in Byzantine history (MA or Phd in the next few years&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, do not take it for anything more than that, a good story.

Most university professors do not consider Norwich an academic, and I tend to agree with them. He constructs a stirring narrative, but the historical accuracy of his work is hardly objective.

Elwe, I have gone over the Alexiad with a fine comb (it was one of the key primary sources for my thesis last year), and can recommend it to anyone with a serious interest in Byzantium. Given that Anna Komnena was the daughter of Alexios, one must treat her work with a somewhat critical attitude, but it is both a fascinating account of Alexios' reign, and offers a lot of insight into Byzantine society. I would suggest the translation by E. Sewter rather than Elizabeth Dawes, as it makes for smoother reading.

If any of you want to follow some authors, here are a few I have found interesting.

Michael Angold - Political History of the Byzantine Empire 1025-1180 or A Byzantine Government in Exile: Government and Society under the Laskarids of Nicaea 1204-1261.

Paul Magdalino - The Empire of Manual Komnenos 1143-1180

Donald Treadgold - Look up his titles on the net, he has quite a few books and articles to his name.

Dennis George - Maurice's Strategikon and Three Byzantine Military Treatises, translations.

Deno Geanakoplos - Byzantium: Church, Society and Civilization seen through contemporary eyes (concentrate on the extracts, forget the commentary).

John Kinnamos - Deeds of John and Manual Komnenos.

Niketas Choniates (THE literary god of the 12th century&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif - O City of Byzantium.

John Haldon - numerous books and articles, check on the web.

Ralph Johannes Lilie - Byzantium and the Crusader States.

G Ostorgorsky - History of the Byzantine State (old title but well written).

And my personal favorite: Constantine Porphyrogenitus and his World by Arnold Toynbee. An excellent book. Beware though, he diverges MANY times.

Hope this list helps.

[Catulus]

Swamp Thing, do you happen to know if there are any good topographical studies on Constantinople or Byzantium in general? I found out that topography helped me to understand Rome (the city and Africa Proconsularis so far) a bit better and perhaps I might be able to squeeze some points form Byzantium to my Classical Archaeology studies as well.

[Swamp Thing]

Unfortunately, the focus of my study was military and political development rather than topographical features, so I cannot help you.

If I do come across any books covering that subject, I will message you immediately.

[Elwe]

Quote[/b] (Swamp Thing @ May 05 2003,09:14)]Most university professors do not consider Norwich an academic, and I tend to agree with them. He constructs a stirring narrative, but the historical accuracy of his work is hardly objective.
In Norwichs' defence, he does say exactly that in his prologue, and that he recomends that you keep those points in mind when you read his books http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


Quote[/b] ]Elwe, I have gone over the Alexiad with a fine comb (it was one of the key primary sources for my thesis last year), and can recommend it to anyone with a serious interest in Byzantium. Given that Anna Komnena was the daughter of Alexios, one must treat her work with a somewhat critical attitude, but it is both a fascinating account of Alexios' reign, and offers a lot of insight into Byzantine society. I would suggest the translation by E. Sewter rather than Elizabeth Dawes, as it makes for smoother reading.

I can't remember who translated the version I bought, I have a feeling it was Dawes. Thanks for the heads up

Can you recommend any good texts on the military organisation of the late Byzantine (I still hate using that word) Empire from 600AD onwards? By good, I mean giving a description of formation, equipment, tactics, composition, and covering details such as how they were formed, the amount of time they were maintained before being disbanded, the everyday running of camp, etc.. (Don't want much, do I? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

I can find countless texts on the military make up of western European armies, but barely a thing on those of eastern Europe

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Elwe]

Thanks for the PM, mate. Just what I wanted.

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Swamp Thing]

No probs

[kataphraktoi]

Yo Swamp Thing are you doing Byzantine History at UWA, Murdoch or EDU? I ruled out Curtin cos I go there and they don;t offer it.

If u do are doing it at one of those universities I am going to transfer next semester(Yes seriously), I don;t want to spend my last semester before I get my BA in Politics and History studying Election history in AUstralia or Liberty and Equality

Heres hoping its at UWA.


Just like u I'll probably focus on Military and Politics....

My personally favourite is Warren Treadgold, true he does make a slot of speculative guesses when he tries to construct the size of the military but in everything else he write with a golden eloquence.

[kataphraktoi]

No probs Heraclius, I still haven't got mine.

I am very very jealous.......very jealous......very very jealous.....Greeks have all the fun.

Did ya check de website out and the film proposals???

[kataphraktoi]

If you were a director of the movie what would u open with?

a) opening scene where the Turkish Cannons are pounding the walls of Constantinople as Mehmed rides across the length of the walls supervising his troops and viewing the progess from there.

b) venetian ships sailing away from a burning Constantinople with huddled refugess

c) COnstantine falling in the midst of battle.

d) we open in the Venetian republic meeting and a survivor recounts the tale of the siege

[some_totalwar_dude]

D, that would make a nice opening IMO

Else I would start a few days, maby a week before the siege started to get a bigger story around it.
without that it would just be a movie about some siege for the average historicly uninterested viewer.

[Heraclius]

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ May 08 2003,01:56)]No probs Heraclius, I still haven't got mine.

I am very very jealous.......very jealous......very very jealous.....Greeks have all the fun.

Did ya check de website out and the film proposals???
yeah the book looks good. it would make a decent movie in my opinion.

[Heraclius]

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ May 08 2003,06:37)]If you were a director of the movie what would u open with?

a) opening scene where the Turkish Cannons are pounding the walls of Constantinople as Mehmed rides across the length of the walls supervising his troops and viewing the progess from there.

b) venetian ships sailing away from a burning Constantinople with huddled refugess

c) COnstantine falling in the midst of battle.

d) we open in the Venetian republic meeting and a survivor recounts the tale of the siege
i'd go with d. very good idea.

[kataphraktoi]

Now who's gonna be the stars of this movie:

Constantine Paleologus
a) Sean Connery
b) Harrison Ford
c) Arnold Schwarzenegger (hahaha)
d) Vigo Mortensen
e) Make a suggestion

I nominate myself as the harem guard in the movie.