View Full Version : Most important skill in MTW
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
05-01-2003, 17:58
I dropped a HINT...
Louis,
3 things: Lots of cav, good team and a good and fast mouse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
CBR
there is no "do your own thing" up there
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
05-01-2003, 18:32
There is Gah and Gah Cut head Gah
What other 'do your own thing' would you like to see?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Louis,
Fast movement, response and meticoulous micromanagement is still the very important.
The problem in this poll is that it doesn't list creativity. The most important skill is to find creative solutions to all the problems one might find on the battlefield, regardless of the map, faction, florins.
Tera.
It's all about knowing how to react givin that you know your surroundings, units, controls, and enemy.
So, i voted for fast mouse clicking, cause the faster you are the better and thats very important.
Combine the 1st thing i said with fast mouse clicking and that's skill.
lol most important skill, where would i start.
Kongamato
05-01-2003, 20:45
George Patton said:
"An Army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team."
What good are your Pavise Arbalesters when your Chivalric Foot Knights are not protecting them? What good are your Chivalric Men-at-Arms if their flanks are left open? What good are your Heavy Cavalry if you leave the enemy's anti-cav unchecked?
I believe that skill is the proper organization and drilling of your army. Ever seen a newbie take a balanced army, send one unit of cavalry at the enemy, and once they rout put every unit in wedge and charge at the enemy general, all one at a time? Ever crushed 3 whole units of Longbowmen with Chivalric Knights because some newbie manually targeted your CMAA, and you moved them back, letting the Longbows run straight into your charging horsemen? These newbies lacked the drill skills it took to make their armies fight as a team. Organization is the skill of making your army work, and that is what I value most on the battlefield. Balanced armies and combined arms dont mean anything if you cant make them work together.
George Patton also said:
"If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?"
This applies. If you cannot make your men do what you want, how do you expect to win?
Let me sum up my answer to this question:
The most important skill in this game is the ability to have your men do what you want them to do. Control. Some call it fast-clicking, others call it micromanagement, I call it being disciplined and properly drilled. Not much strategy in that, is there? Strategy belongs in the army selection phase. On the battlefield, teamwork through drilling and control is what counts.
t1master
05-01-2003, 21:10
gah how bout wear your opponent out by continued routing, then reform and rout again... hopefuly your enemy will be tired from chasing you... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
ErikJansen
05-01-2003, 22:56
Most important skill is how to micromanage those Turcoman, Hashishin and Naptha simultaneously. Oh and to remember to set the Hashishin off fire at will and on hold position http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
05-02-2003, 00:36
Quote[/b] (t1master @ May 01 2003,15:10)]gah how bout wear your opponent out by continued routing, then reform and rout again... hopefuly your enemy will be tired from chasing you... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Gah
I have tried that recently... I think (RTK)Lamorak routed all my units but 2 something like 4 times in a row, meanwhile my 'allies' were watching... I hope they had fun.
I think Lamorak was doing pretty fine, not getting too tired, killing my guys, routing them until they ask for mercy....
So, hum, eventually I ruled that out of the winning skills...
I recommand you do not try to use this skill t1master. It is not a winning one
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Louis,
GAH George Patton is a fool, he arrived to an already won war. He can stick it GAH Give me Scipio Africanus, Guderian, Rommel, Heinrici, Wavell, Zhukov, Koniev Then you have a general and not some wanna-be winner.
Kongamato
05-02-2003, 02:53
Does your opinion make my quotes of Patton wrong, tactically unsound, or idiotic?
Fast click aka micromanagement is the MOST important skill.
Good army? Just copy one of the vet. Easy.
Good allies? Stick with establish names. Easy.
Gah? Thats what to say after victory. Easy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
NightRider
05-02-2003, 03:20
Hi...
I agree with fast mouse movement and also a understanding of each unit and its capabilities http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Krasturak
05-02-2003, 04:09
Gah Cut heads off Gah
Aggression is the crucial 'skill' in MTW.
Unit Selection. I don't care how good you are, you're not going to win with 16 units of peasants, unless your opponent is seriously a complete idiot, or you have some unfair advantage.
But besides this obvious situation, there are some situations where your units just don't don't match up well, and your opponent has the obvious advantage.
Div Hunter
05-02-2003, 05:06
Battlefield Awareness
After only a few battles you can get to know what units to buy, how to use them, who to ally with ect. But unless you know the situation once the battle starts you're going to get hammered. Unless you have very good allies who tell you what to do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Like to add that micromanagement also include unit match-up. Able to control fast will be quite unless if you keep sending wrong unit to face the enemy. It is one of the hardest skill to master, to be able to quickly match up unit when you and the opponent are both moving the pieces; you have to identify the units' valor, take into consideration hidden bonus like weapon upgrades etc... avoid surprises like v1 chi.knight losing to what seems like a v0 chi.knight when in fact it has 3 weapon upgrade.
the important thing is unitselection, make a turtel and dont move a unit and u will see, u can win a lot of ur games, so u dont need a mouse and dstill can win with veeeerrrryyy slooooooooooooowwwwwww mouseclickin....
koc
LRossaLordJimi
05-02-2003, 08:21
For me skill in MTW mean choose the right units,and this is not easy,because there are many good formations,but your own way of play is different and you can't copy kocmoc's formations and play like him http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
So you have to try and try and find your right formations (or maybe copy the right one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif )
Skill is to read the battle in the few minutes of start,see the flag of valours of enemy,see his formation and intentions and plan your attack or defense.
Skill is cover your intentions and move on the right moment.
Fast clicking don't make you win,many great generals wait for your move and then move the reserves and win...
And first of all our Tarranakian master Krast say right:aggressivity is the key of victory.Just at the right moment... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
GahCut head off
Ave
well i tihnk that army is important, though i voted fr blood
sure its one thing to pick a great army, its another thing knowing how to use it to its full potentual
thats where most gamers fall.. making an army theyve seen before and playing a normal strat with it. Once a player out there takes the same army as his enemy, and uses each unit to its maximum potentual, then you will see that general completely trounce most of his opponents.
As it stands id go so far to say about 98% of players play averagly, taking the "balanced" army, and holding the line.
its an effective tactic, and wins many games, but you will also see many of the better players completely anhiliating them
FearofNC
05-02-2003, 09:53
i was undercover one day and brought one of kocs english armies (v3 longbows anyone?) ... tried my best to play like him to... his style that is... i was with a noob in a 2v2 vs my clam8 ace and wolfnashwan... at the end of the game both nash and ace were saying "hi koc" lol...
Crandaeolon
05-02-2003, 10:33
IMHO Knowledge of the battlefield, units and game interface is sort of "basic" knowledge. It's quite easy to obtain but very important. For example, not knowing about unit abilities can lead to an army of peasants, archers and urban militia... an almost certain loss.
When everyone has these basic skills covered, players are mostly distinguished by their abilities to play creatively and to respond quickly to situations.
All of these skills are important, I can't single out any one aspect. If compared to time invested, proper selection of units probably has the greatest impact.
Magyar Khan
05-02-2003, 13:28
another on ethas still imporatant is timing
Unit selection, mouse clicking, fast reaction, battlefield awareness, the ability to lead your enemy.
DthB4Dishonor
05-02-2003, 18:20
I would agree with Amp and Tera.
Manuevering and being able to react quickly to opportunites which present themselves is important. Also knowing your armies abities and strenghts and those of your allies is also key.
RTKPaul
Agree with Tera and a few....to see what is going on and respond with the right action at the right time to maximize chances for victory. Easy to say....
Dimeolas
Quote[/b] (Dimeolas @ May 02 2003,16:31)]Agree with Tera and a few....to see what is going on and respond with the right action at the right time to maximize chances for victory. Easy to say....
Dimeolas
If it were easy I would never lose http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hehe.
t1master
05-02-2003, 23:54
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ May 01 2003,18:36)]Gah
I have tried that recently... I think (RTK)Lamorak routed all my units but 2 something like 4 times in a row, meanwhile my 'allies' were watching... I hope they had fun.
I recommand you do not try to use this skill t1master. It is not a winning one
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Louis,
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif alas it's the only tactic i've mastered, therefore the only one i can honestly comment on.
i'd lean towards unit selection and knoweledge of your teammates and communication, if possible.
Mood Management it is for me... I've noticed that my mood has lots of impact on my playstyle, awareness, micromanagment and army selection...
LRossaLordJimi
05-03-2003, 23:21
I think we didn't say that of course many hours of training and play will improve your skillness and your fast clicking http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Is like play guitar,if you want be a great guitarist,you need to play and play and play and enter in "jam session" with best people around,save replay and look what you can learn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Ave
Quote[/b] (Aelwyn @ May 01 2003,23:51)]Unit Selection. I don't care how good you are, you're not going to win with 16 units of peasants, unless your opponent is seriously a complete idiot, or you have some unfair advantage.
Remember Sun Tzu: Every battle is won *before* you click Ready.
Nah, don't think so. Surely there are units that will make you loose, but as long as you stay away from those obvious bad choices, you need other skills to win.
But you're right that the skill here is to combine units. As someone already said, no unit is strong by itself. You need to combine you archers with spears, the spears with cavalry, cavalry with infantry. But you must combine them well in both time and space, i.e manoeuvres and timing. And that's what i'd say the single most important skill is.
i want to vote for
Gah
Cut HeadMake Soup
and
GahCut HeadGah
i also want to spam the final 3 posts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif
ErikJansen
05-04-2003, 10:05
Quote[/b] (VKC_Blutzeit @ May 03 2003,17:22)]Nah, don't think so. Surely there are units that will make you loose, but as long as you stay away from those obvious bad choices, you need other skills to win.
Would you classify the 12 man Hashishin as one of those? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Part from the peasants there are no clear loosers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ May 04 2003,05:05)]Part from the peasants there are no clear loosers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
I should have said "there are combination of units will make you loose", 16 unit peasants army might be one of those (although it will surely win over an 8 peasant army). But even peasants can be useful in certain situations. They beat every other unit in one aspect: cost. They certanly get slaughtered (hehe...), but they might get stuck to that cav unit long enough for you to be able to flank it with your spears.
Skomatth
05-04-2003, 23:12
I think once you know the basics execution is the most important skill. If you can do exactly what you want, you'll prolly win. IM not stupid enough to charge a cav into billmen but if im too slow theres nothing i can do about it.
LRossaLordJimi
05-05-2003, 08:56
Quote[/b] ]But even peasants can be useful in certain situations. They beat every other unit in one aspect: cost
Yes,if you choose peasants you will have some florins left and your army run and run and run http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I think peasants are the worst unit in the game,in which combat will they win? Just against some cow... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
No offence,just some joke http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I just prefer to spend some florin more in an higher morale unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Ave
Swoosh So
05-05-2003, 09:04
The most importent skill in mtw is the cav rush http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Or multiple artillery tageting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] (LRossaLordJimi @ May 05 2003,03:56)]I think peasants are the worst unit in the game,in which combat will they win? Just against some cow...:joker: http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
They are the worst, not doubt. But lets say, five peasant units against one ChivMAA? They get a good deal of morale bonus from outnumbering and flanking. Would they win? I don't have a clue, would be interesting to try it out.
Quote[/b] (LRossaLordJimi @ May 03 2003,17:21)]Is like play guitar,if you want be a great guitarist,you need to play and play and play and enter in "jam session" with best people around,save replay and look what you can learn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Ave
Do you play guitar Jimi??
I play it 3 hours minimum per day since 14 years(if MTW allowed me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).
I will be a teacher soon (I hope!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, so if u wanna some classes just call...
He he, just let me win u easily and i wont ask u to pay me money http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Ale
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
lol rick,
hehe yeah many think i play undercover....well, no
i didnt played for months, just 1 game here and then.
sure some skill is needed, but what i mean is, in mtw the difference between an average and a "very good" player is very very small, imo the luck and the bonusses dont give u enought room to show/reflect ur skill and ideas. so the most battles are same. if u dont bring an "fun army" ur army will be within an uniselection of this :
3 pavs
6 cavs
4 maa
3 spears
i think 90% of ur army will be like this, so at the end where are the tactical points?
like cavarcher?
or the special units?
anyway, the widespreaded openformationed lancers just move trougth ur lines and are not a nice move, its just a gamemecanic wich any player can use
so, yes there are some better players, but its impossible to find some a handfull "best" players.
and if a massiv cavrush is the way to win, than i dont see any nice move in this, its just much cav at 1 point....well again any average player/team can do this
if i watch replays i dont even see them flanking, its just all in behind each other at 1 point. this is stupid and not skillfull, ofcourse its a cheap way to win.
i dont agree with the most here, who say that u need maneuver skill, as i watched ur replays and u dont move a lot, i nearly never saw soem good moves from u, its all about shoot a bit than frontal attack. so where the hell u move with skill?
everyone can select the mainpart of his army and move frontal his h2h units and on the side some cavs... is this skill? or need u skill to do this?
as i hate posts like this without any solutions or examples.... here it comes.....
the chargebonuss with the supportbonusses are to big, so if u move back ur lost, most of times, this means never go back, dont create traps, just attack frontal. this dont opens any backdraw tactics
the bonusses should be devided by the amount of soldiers in the current unit, but the cav still have the same stats if they got reduced to 1 men, (ofcourse the moral got reduced as they are below 50%) but the attack and support and chare are still same that explains why cav is so strong in the end of the game vs tired h2h units.
maybe the most of u are happy with the current game, but im far away from being happy, as the game got a great potential but we just use a small piece of it.
anyway enjoy and have fun
koc
LRossaLordJimi
05-05-2003, 13:18
Quote[/b] ]Do you play guitar Jimi??
Yessss http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif Music is my first love http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
I can show you a photo when i play guitar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
http://www.printsplus.com/catalog/lifestyles-ent-and-interest/rock-legends/images/rock-legn-hendrix.jpg
If you want teach me gratis i will be very happy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
p.s. I have really a white Fender guitar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Sorry m8 for the OT
Blutzeit maybe 5 peasants against 1 CMAA can loose,because if 1 of them start to route,the others will probably follow them and run http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The point is that in a match you didn't have 5 vs 1 units,but 16 vs 16,so i prefer have a different balance,with elite troup and not cheaper units upgraded.
And now,scuse me,while i have to go to kiss the sky http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Ave
Wolf_Nashwan
05-05-2003, 13:35
Sorry guys i cannot vote at one of this, i mean ((( this aint meant to be a joke ))) cmon...
example what u mean Gahh cut head make soup Gah ???
Actually i belive this: there aint no special skill thats most important or not, the total skill is a combination that only works if u got all the different sorta skills.
I would say in simpliest words: Know urself and Know ur opponent.
this is what i would vote for if it was there.
with this u will be succesfull.
If there is someone wonder what i mean (tell and i will explain).
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
05-05-2003, 13:48
Well, this poll was meant to be joke regarding the skill debate going a little bit too hot in other thread... With many answers (and IMO the relevant ones) not mentionned, but it somehow backfired...
I am kind of concerned ppl took it seriously. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Louis,
Well, with that photo its seems u can teach me nor i can...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Quote[/b] (Kocmoc @ May 05 2003,07:11)]i dont agree with the most here, who say that u need maneuver skill, as i watched ur replays and u dont move a lot, i nearly never saw soem good moves from u, its all about shoot a bit than frontal attack. so where the hell u move with skill?
I think here we often see the principle that "skillful warriors are able to be invincible, but they cannot cause opponents to be vulnerable". That is, when to sufficently skilled teams meet, there will be no room for flank attacks. (Where the noob otoh wouldn't recognize the opportunity). Hence the "shoot-until-the-loosing-side-get-nervous-and-attacks" order of battle. But still, if this isn't skill, what is?
Wolf_Nashwan
05-05-2003, 14:31
VKC i do agree with u abit.
But i must say: this u said with: Hence the "shoot-until-the-loosing-side-get-nervous-and-attacks" order of battle.
This is just where i want my opponents* if u got experience (skill) u would handle this situations better, i mean i played many ppl who do like this, the time they feel the shoot war is not going well they rush right in to yah, i wouldent call that much of skill. BUT its most easy to counter this players, ((( if you got skill ))) by u meanwhile sending cavs at sided that with u later on flank or something.
Its just like a Karate fight: The time u loose ur consentration you loose, ppl who loose consentration need more experieance, expearienced ppl can handle this.
Hehe guys u can tell how many thing u want / but i am sure i have the all proffs i need to proff that THIS GAME IS ABOUT SKILL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
///This i edit///: ppl says its lesser difference between good and bad ppl here in mtw, ( how come i win 67 games in row here in mtw ? / and yesterday i had another record that ended with 22 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif this games where ended againt strong veterans, i wouldent lose against someone with what u guys call no skill: even rushes i held, meaby rushes that was played with a strong general would be hard, but thats a whole another thing.
in stw and mi i actually lost more than now, my honour point would be over 160 here if it was on i am must sure of it, what i think is that the armys with many heavy cavs, and armies with monks in was very hard, 1 little mistake against a ( even a noob ) u would lose, ( allso i reconised that ur men routed faster, i remember cavs armies runned away from 1 single musketer shoot). And the mongolian era was nothing to talk about /// all must agree that their rushes was almost unstopable.
Wolf_Nashwan
...ehehhe, Nash, when you want I am avaiable for another test http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.
BTW, VI is near, and I have heard some changes on the game that seems to me intresting, and I am very happy. Maybe the skill/talent will become important again, and not only the units selection http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
05-05-2003, 15:00
ARGH ok listen all
Me and paolai made a test: paolai said that him and his lancers is unbeatable, i said no it can be able to beat with the right army, this i still belive evendo i lost against you that time paolai...
but thats another thing ( like i said ) dont let the lancers power ruin the game, look at it in the bright side, that the newBs can give u better challenge if u like http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
but remember newBs its aint to much to brag with if yah win.
(Veterans should know they shouldent use this cavs) cuz thats aint honourable and thats aint so fair.
BTW ALL
Like i told to paolai be4: the thing is we play on steppe sun grass maps, (thats spains lancers homefield)
set them in the mounty desert or endless snow or confusing woods and see how much they can do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
this may be why some ppl says its useless to play with some factions, but remember (select ur factions homefield) just as the europeans do.
This i see some do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif and guys thats a good pay back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Nash, that was surely an extreme test. I only shown you that with a very strong army I only need a double click to beat you, and it is sad http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif, I have done nothing, I have only splitted my army and then run to you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif this is not skill/talent for me...
Wolf_Nashwan
05-05-2003, 15:24
Paolai first game ended after 20 mins, where i was the one that moved in to your cavs cuz i got tired, i would say gl with double click behind my army with that army (u know urself it wouldent work, so dont say against ur self...
btw as i said thats another thing*
read my other mail again and see how i made an advise to look it at the bright side.
Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
well nash,
u got some victs in a row....but paolai hit the nail on the head, the unitselection decide it... 1 more aspect is, too much luck in this game ...too many bonusses....
btw, how good must be the guy who beat u 18 times in a row? :P
koc
Wolf_Nashwan
05-05-2003, 16:32
Kocmoc http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Please do not say the 67 games i played was luck / as i dont say the 18 games u won me wasent luck. I WOULD SAY THAT WAS SKILL.
And kocmoc thats once again a proff: how else would u win me 18 games in row now RIGHT?
btw for me its nothing to shame about ur a good player, but come here to the battlefield and i will PAY BACK (with skill) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
now u may say u lost much skill...
Btw kocmoc why do ppl say, even u say when u been away from mtw much (ohh i feel rusty, ohh i lost my skill) hmm...
Kocmoc u speaked about bonusses allso*
Please send a mail here to explain what u mean.
Magyar Khan
05-05-2003, 16:53
without reading it all i summarize some things
in general teh skilled beat the unskilled, that was the case in stw, mi and mtw
a good balanced army in teh hands of teh skilled is able to counter most opposing armies wielded by the unskilled.
but in stw/mi almost every unit had a good effective purpose on the field. muskets were slow but caused fear, horsearchers were vulnerable but deadly for teh strong monks and nodachi. even regular archers were good to kill muskets and such.
in stw/mi a skilled player with a balanced army could easily counter a rush army wielded by teh less skilled on a green map. a rush army wielded by a smart rusher (1 musket 6 monks 6 nagcav and some spears or whatever) had a godo chance to beat the skilled balanced guy.
in mtw a certain amount of units are much less usefull than others. the reload times of arbs are slow so having 4 against a good rusher will mostly work out as a loss. also having less hcav may result in a loss. in this way there are more possibilities a skilled player can get a loss vs a less skilled player.
even if u play a best of 10 it may result in a win of the lesser skilled, caused by a lucky rock-scissor-handpick. in teh case this handpick worked out in similar armies on both sides teh more skilled will win relativly more.
summarize
the outcome of battles are harder to predict since picking units became more important caused by units being more effective* (when upgraded) then others.
* effective means the total sum of bonusses which decide teh outcome of especially teh hand to hand combat part of the game.
so a vet player cant choose a better army than a new player?
hmm
following that idea magy, does not that mean the player who can better chose his army with his skills on the field in mind be the more skilled player?
as i say all over the place these days, picking your army IS a skill.
and the using that army effectivly IS a skill
the player who knows how to use his army best will win 90%
hi Alrowan, please dont take it as personal offence, it is not, but where is the skill in picking lets say: 5 byz inf, 5 Vguards and 5 pronoi allagion? And where is the skill in playing this army? And can you tell us just 1 reasonable well-balanced (non byzantine) army which has any chance againts this combo?
Back in STW/MI it was a risk to take a rush army. There was no guarentee to win, I have seen top noch rush players picking their best rush armies still returning with a bloody nose. Here in MTW rush is not a risk but a cheap way to win. Let the best rusher pick his best rush army and a solid defensive player pick his best well-balanced army. Who do you think is going to win? Give the average player a strong rush army and he can defeat even the best defenders with their best well-balanced armies.
This is not to say that you dont need skills at all.
Also this is not to say that a skilled player picking strong armies cannot win most of his games.
i could beat it with a blanaced army.
honestly the reason i see everyone complaining is because they cant hack losing, and instead of blaming thier lack of skill, they blame thier army
A POOR WORKER BLAMES HIS TOOLS, JUST AS A POOR GENERAL BLAMES HIS ARMY
im sick of all this debate, there is none to be had. Rushes will rush, get over it, think of it first. You will lose, get over it, use it to improve your skill. there is no such thing as a "balanced" army, its just an idea people have conformed to and use constantly.
If you play with innovation, you will learn faster than the rest. Enough said
Wolf_Nashwan
05-05-2003, 17:56
As i have said be4
We veterans can allso use thoose armys as u say noobs use to win.
But winning with a sucha army aint honourable, and this they allso know, or mostly yes... they admit they havent a fair army, but thats np * cuz it would just give me and him a fun battle with challenge /// newBs reading this who dident know ((( remember winning with an unfair army aint nothing to brag with )))
The reason why we veterans dosent use this armys u say noobs do, is HONOUR (the unspoken rule) that we follow.
I think this should be a end of ppl still thinking the game aint build on skill. If u read my and alrowans mails in this forums and the other, u will see we have all proofs needed.
Wolf_Nashwan
Magyar Khan
05-05-2003, 17:56
i cant see where i said that alrowan. if u had another name i was thinking ur bending my words on purpose http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
a vet can choose a better army but this will turn out in many times the same army or alike.
last 50 games i lost about 5-10 games. and most of these 10 games i lost cause i was using 2 byz cav, some hashasin or units that are considerable weaker than any other unit in their faction.
using low costs arbs gives u florin to use on combat units to make them stronger but so far in mtw
the killrate of arbs and the money u save is not as strong as using the unitslot on an additional combatunit (cav or inf).
using 1-2 arbs still is usefull against rushers but 4 may bring a loss. in the end u need some luck too.
the game has more potential than its presented, lets hope VI brings some more tactical options besides players playing for fun willingly to field the lesser units.
you began saying how much chosing units was down to knowledge magy
as for your last post, well what can i say, its simple
every player is given the same # of florins to do with what they wish
some might spend some on horse archers, others on some spears, now a good player with horse archers (Vandal for example) can completly use them and get at least a kill for each man in his unit. A poor general might get half. Obviously using your units to your style is reccomended, and experimenting is encouraged. Now a good general will learn from his mistakes magy, and try improve on what he did wrong. not give up on that unit all together
You played STW/MI Alrowan?
If not, I understand your points. In STW the real skill was shown when Magy kicked your a$$ hard with 10 HorseArchers...or when AMP slaughered you with units that nobody in the world used to get because of their apparent useless function. And when I say 'you' I mean the creme de la creme of the skill hierarchy of the community at the time. This is very very difficult to see in MTW, because armies are much more important. That's why we are lamenting, the game still needs skill, but compared to the good ol' days.....
Tera.
If anyone can win everytime with a rush army, why don't everyone use it in every game? There's more at work here than just honour. It's about winning. If I know my enemy will pick his usual rush army, do i pick my average well balanced army? No, i sharpen my long pointed sticks and shove'em up his a** http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Just as in the paper-rock-scissor game, you can't just always pick scissors, no matter how sharp they are. In MTW you don't have just one, but 16 choices to make, and the well balanced choice will be better off in the average.
BTW, my preliminary scientific tests indicates that peasants suck for a fact http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
It's all about winning, yes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif That's why everyone gets strong armies in the battles that count http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif The problem is that we're always seeking improvement in skill, possibly coupled by public recognition of the skill developed...but it is difficult to find a 'measure' for skill. We all have different opinions.
I have my own definition of skill, developed over years of playing Total War online. I am not an 'elite' player like AMP or Magy but I do recognise who has 'raw' skill and who just has a good army he knows how to use. Show me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
i just think that you had a better oportunity of showing your superior skill in stw/mi .. by this what i mean is that there were more ways to open up the game to pull your opponents army around the feild a little, and give you the opening to trap units using pure micrmanagment skill .. the inability of archers to penetrate armour has a big part in this .. today i played a guy who i felt was a lot more inexperienced than myself, and i was hoping to use my cav archer to pull him around a little i ended up with my turcopole getting free shots at his maa, its full amount of ammo was spent and it took just out a total of just 12 men .. Alrowan you talk about use of cav archers lol, well i shot at his least armoured units and thats what i got .. this is what sucks, your opponent can play his own game and for you to manipulate your opponent to make him move in a way you want is very hard indeed esp if the player is average or better .. oh well i have high hopes for VI .. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
05-05-2003, 21:13
Ok let me say the final words http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
First when the topics came here some days ago, ppl say no skill need in mtw. This i just could not belive so i gathered proofs, I made some to agree with me anyway little that the game needs skill, now its gone so far we start compare with stw and mi.
But i must say its aint enogh in battlefield skill, but. as someone came with (words from suntstu) the game can be over be4 u played it if your preaperd well, here in mtw its much hard (allso fun) to create own armyes and tactics that u can play well with, and use it against the opponent that this works on. But i must say again i do agree with u all that there is more battlefield skill required in stw and mi.
Ohh btw i heard some said the game is about winning the battles: i am sorry but this i cannot agree, i think its about winning the honour and have fun. I am most sure u guys will agree this is the correct answer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
btw to having fun u search for challenges: u can find challenges against someone that is lesser good than u, if he is using better army than u (evendo if its abit unfair) but here its just about having fun /nothing to brag with/, or u have a weaker faction.
this is one good way to see at it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But veterans please avoid choosing unfair unbalanced armys.
Or many spain lancers to rush with* this is the only thing that ruin the games fun.
Wolf_Nashwan
Hmmm why is everyone so focused on 1 vs 1 -s here ?
In larger games the team with the better strategy wins ...
IMO it takes more skill to be a good team player than to be a good 1 vs 1 player anyway ...
And realism ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif , in reality if defending I would be in one of those large castle things with 8 serps in every tower http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ( and let the other army call it unfair http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )
What I expect from VI : NO MORE PAVISE
TGI
PS : Hope CA does a World War II version of Totalwar,hopefully that would stop the horse archer discussions ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
PS2 : Ok then we would get the : Why cant my polish lancers beat tanks people .... ( my retainers were sooooo good in MTW why did they change that ... ) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
ErikJansen
05-05-2003, 21:37
Quote[/b] (baz @ May 05 2003,14:05)]today i played a guy who i felt was a lot more inexperienced than myself, and i was hoping to use my cav archer to pull him around a little i ended up with my turcopole getting free shots at his maa, its full amount of ammo was spent and it took just out a total of just 12 men ..
I've got to agree some here, the pure damage you inflict with HA's seem too small sometimes. We all know they can create openings for you tho, cav traps and all that, but this requires a LOT of micromanagement and effort on your part, whereas the 8 heavy cav general may just head straight for your lines. I find that I've more success when coupling some HA's with very nasty upgraded Alans, but again this isnt anything new either http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Its a challenge tho and very fun, not to mention very satisfying when you get results. For me that's the main point http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
05-05-2003, 22:25
Sometimes it is very satisfying to play with HA.... CMAA are not the best target around, too bad there were nothing else... Recently shot some Swiss Halb nicely. Billmen & Gallow are also among my favorite. As long as it doesn't have shields, it is fair game...
I actually find HA very helpfull in end game... Sometimes arrows are enough to rout some remaining units, without too much missile around, HA becomes somehow more effective in ennerving the opposition. And HA don't get too tired raising their combat effectiveness when all other units are very tired / exhausted. I try sometimes to keep them for the endgame... Too bad they don't try to make it to the end game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
For sure you can argue that without HA and with one more heavy cav there would not be any endgame to speak about, but a giant mass rout...
Yeah, sure... but it is somehow fun to play with those...
Too bad that 3v3 or 4v4 are too crowded to allow any good use of HA... I still bring at least one... And more if 1v1 or 2v2.
Louis,
Check this out, this game requires so much skill, that i won a 4v4 against the 7bear7 clan, while playing praetorains at the sametime.
I was using Byz and all i did was mix in with an ally on my right flank and sat there untill my other two allies on the left routed aswell the ally i was mixed in with. I didn't start moving or giving any commands even when they starting attacking my left with a few units. It came time to react when they started attacking my left with more units and the byz army infront started coming up the hill at me. All i did was order a few fast attacks here and there and went off to playing praetorains again. My army did all the work for me and i would look back once and while to order a few units to chase the routers.
My allies were saying to me "wow you're really good" and at the same time "why don't you command you troops"?.
Where is the skill in that, being able to win without giving hardly any commands or not payin much attention to the game? Well there is none. It was mostly all about my unit selection, the over powered byz. All i had to do was give few fast orders with my mouse at the right times and let my over powered units do the work.
I would have voted for unit selection as most important, but i don't consider that a "skill". The only thing on that list of skills i could relate to is "fast mouse clicking". Now anyone can click fast, but it's all about clicking fast knowing what you're doing. As in setting up fast traps, doing hit and runs, avioding bad engagements by not letting troops wonder off, and other little things...
So to me the real skill won't be back in the total wars, unless they fix overpowered and underpowered units as well as the standard unit size. In stw most units were set at 60 unit size, so having all these different unit sizes i think messes things up as well.
Today i gathered my local peasants (there were 800 of them) for a small scientific experiment. I told them to fight one hundred order foot soldiers, those who survived would be spared. (i threatend to kill those who didn't). They surrounded the soldiers and engaged. All of them were scared like hell, some even ran away for a while until they remembered my threats. Their losses were huge, 519 deaths, but eventually they won, killing 59 soldiers.
Conclusion: Peasants rule?
(The relevance to this thread is left as an excercise to the reader)
i agree that picking an army is not much of a skill, it is a part of trial and error from the whole community .. its just how fasy you catch on .. look online now even new guys take v4 militia and a3 pavs .. roll on VI i hope to bring back some archery http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Magyar Khan
05-06-2003, 01:55
i am more concerened with game mechanics and upgrades value than i am with unitsizes.
i am most concerned with gaining valour during battle. (in combo with weaponupgrades ofcourse)
heres my rundown of baz and amps points with armies
firstly baz, with your horsearchers, perhaps you need more skill in picking a better target for them (ie ones with less armour or no shileds) then you will see results.
AMP, with your byz army, sounds like you corner camped and waited till your enemies men were sompletely tired, and so which case, your task wasnt too hard, hit a few units, get them routing, and the chain rout starts. id like to see you pull that off again aginst fresh armies, then i would more than likely see your army get trounced
one final note to this.
how is it that all the recognised players (amp and magy) all seem to hold such high reputations? its because they were good at STW. If MTW has no skill, then how is it that when players like myself for example, who didnt play STW, have such high repute on the battlefield? is it because i can pick the same armies as everyone else? no, its because i win my games based on skill. If MTW was all down to armies, there would be no stand out generals.
thx amp, thats my opinion
yes, this shows 1 more what the prob is.
inactive player are harder to beat as active with a small mistake....
moralsupport is too big and the unitsizes dont help...
koc
well im not mag neither amp http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
but noone said, u need no skill in MTW, ofcourse u need some basic skill but if ur an average player, there isnt a big difference between u and the "better" player.
all we said is, u need less skill to win ur games in MTW, and if i see players who do many mistakes in game but still can win or nearly win it in the melee i ask myself what the problem is...
no, its too much about fatique, moralsupport, stronger cav, bonusses, unitsizes, bad shooters, bad terrainbonusses
my mainprob is, that u dont need to move in thsi game and Amp explained that game and it shows what i mean, u dont need to move and win at the end, so inactivity is better as activity. this is stupid.
koc
PS: btw, hi aaron, paolo said "hi" to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
THX AMP I have your same opinion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
OK OK OK Alrowan, you are the best player here, and the only one who need skill to win a game, I dont need it (and I dont have it) cause my unit selection do it for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif without do nothing expecial, just wait...sometime split my army, and then double click...
Choose an army is NOT skill, this is not a board game
P.S.: hi Mike http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Alrowan, no i didn't corner camp and yes i'm sure those that came at me from the side were tired, but they tried to get my byz inf to rout cause i had routing allies all over next to me. The one enemy infront of my had a full fresh byz army, but had to march up a rather small hill.
Anyway, it was just an example of how much skill that is required to win, i could come up with more...
Yes, i have pulled of many games like that when the enemy had fresh armies, by rushing at the start with an all cav army just doing a few clicks, while the cav do all the work.
I'm not saying this game dosn't require any skill, just saying it dosn't require nearly as much as stw.
If anyone needs some proof of this all you need to do is come online and play me a few games...
PS: hi, Mike http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
i never said i was the best, i was making a point.
anyway, im sure there is a logical enough reason as to why you won that game, and im sure i could beat your army (yes army not player http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) if you left them alone.
as far as it goes though, skill is required, even to pick an army.
as for the topic its just going in circles now
ELITEofGAZOZ
05-06-2003, 08:47
I can´t hear the Shogun nostalgy anymore:
@Unbalanced Units:
Well nothing changed from STW to MTW concerning the games without any rules (like "no arty", "2 max" etc.).
In Shogun we had only one faction, but we moaned about unbalanced units all the time: Monks, Musks, Naginata Cav...did you forgot?
We moaned about Mongols were stronger than Japanese forces...did you forgot?
Now we have 12 factions. What are you guys expecting?
There are so many undedected possibilites in MTW, you don´t really know.
Recently I ve beat 4 times in a row, even against skilled players, a spanish armies with lancers, with my new composed turkish army. I dedected a cavkiller unit, which was always underestimated till now...maybe I can make them popular like the Militia Sergeants become popular.
I am sure. If we would have started the TW series with MTW and than would have switched over to Shogun the disappointment among us d be much bigger.
Furhtermore it was simply stupid in Shogun if you could win the game just by camping on a damn small slope on Totomi or Nagashima temple or other maps. This is not possible in MTW anymore. What a luck
In Mongol Invasion your guns were able to shoot behind hills once. Did you forgot?
@Gameskill:
Don´t mix up "skill" and "elegance".
Winning in STW was maybe more elegant than winning in MTW, for example by using cav archers, which are nothing worth in MTW due to the mostly armoured units. The armies in MTW are same like a all naginata armies in STW (heavily armoured), so don´t be suprised about the bad results of cav archers, they were never armour crackers, not in STW and not in MTW. On the other hand the MTW armies are tired quicker than in STW, due to the heavy armour, these is all very logical. I can´t understand the main critic.
But elegance didn´t rule Shogun always. I saw many very skilled player with balanced armies losing vs a simple rush army...
In MTW you have to consider much more factors than in STW/MI. Many veterans ignore the new factors, which didn´t exist in STW/MI. The Total War Series are like this: We started with Tennis, switched over to Squash, now we are playing Badminton and VI will be like Table Tennis. Now it is funny if Björn Borg or Ivan Lendl d say, Badminton is such a bad game, the net is too high, the ball is so slow, every dude is now able to beat me, cause I can´t serve all the as´s I was used to in Tennis. Wouldn´t u call them ignorant/arrogant?
The reason why people think, there is no need for skill in MTW, might be the fact, that we don´t face always the same situation like we did in Shogun. In Shogun we knew perfectly what No Dachis do, what Yari Sams do, what Monks do after playing with them 1000 times, but in Medieval you can´t improve your skills on French vs French in High era cause u even dont play these games 10 times in a row
Imo only few changes are neccessary:
- better morale of all units
- no unit upgrades during battles
Gaz, do you think that AMP and Kocmoc lost many games on MTW? So if you dont beleive that you will be agree with me that they know PERFECTLY how the GAME MECHANICS works. So plz....
------------------------------------
UH What you have done Gaz? Yuo edited your post where you said that the Vets dont know how the MTW GAME MECHANISMs work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif? Ok....maybe you changed opinion, its ok then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
-------------------------------------
sorry Alrowan could you just show me what to aim at next time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/iB_html/uploads/alrowan.jpg
i am not trying to bring up a conversation about "the good old days" i just want to improve future TW games .. at the moment there are important units that are not worth getting, which leads to a simple battle format .. i agree with koc and have played many 1v1 games with just full frontal assaults which i dont find particularly enjoyable .. esp if i loose them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
im going to be quiet now and hope VI adds to all our enjoyment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
05-06-2003, 11:05
Gazoz i totaly agree with u... this is what i am allso trying 2 explain http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
05-06-2003, 11:27
Yo AMP
That byz army i won 4 times in row... it aint a prob beating that army, u just need the right army against it...
And the bears may not knew u was going to us a sucha unbalanced army, (and remember) where is the honour of your playing amp ?
its like u do all to just win, its like u ruin ur chances of the game should be fun and the other opponents... meanwhile u say this dosent need skill... amp, us fair balanced armys and u will see it requires more skill that u ever belive.
Hmmmm Hmmmm Hmmmm: no matter how many proffs i come with ppl keep saying ohh if i take my unbalanced army i would win, so its no skill... well cmon PLAY fair and this wont happend.
I must say its like u guys forgot mi and stw... i say its much harder to hold a good rusher in mi and stw than its here in mtw... i am most sure of it, i lost against noobs with using like 1 arbs some monks rest heavy cavs, and i lost. Here i would garanti u all, it woulded work... when i puted my winning streak with 67 wins in row, so was about over 15 of thoose rushes made to eliminate my winning streak... but i held this (by my battle experieance) i dident lose consentration...
But now ppl would say now (evendo u dont lose ur consentration) we can beat u with a all cav spanish rush... (first i say a newB would newer win with even that rush against me, other: i would say i may lose against a very good veteran, Third: that veteran dosent seem to know what honour means* i do completly not care if i lose that game, i would know the honour is on my side...
Wolf_Nashwan: Why cant ppl just admit that if yah dont take the lancers and the damn boorring unfair unbalanced armyes the game is more of skill than u ever belive?
and as i said in my other mails... remember this units ( example lancers, may be good in flat grass maps, and this byz infs may be good in woods... but try fight the lancer against the byz inf in the woods, or try use the byz infs against the lancers in the flat grass, allso go try us this both infs in the desert against against a muslim faction or in winter against a army that got better condition than this fat heavy units this game is many more times advanced that stw and mi, its just you guys who always must see in the bad way (but meanwhile u dosent look back and check the bad ways in stw and mi.
Soon i will give up cuz u guys dosent seems to listen to all the mails i sent... gah
Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
LRossaRikimaru
05-06-2003, 11:29
i agree with you GazZoz ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ) , we must adapt to new standard as we will adapt to Viking and to Rome.
Still hope that Viking bring some new fashion to the game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
LRossaRikimaru
Wolf_Nashwan
05-06-2003, 11:46
BTW PAOLAI *
u keep saying this is not a bourd game... ok what would u say if i in chess is able 2 select all the quinns that is best at the game? and lets say everything is allowed, but u wanted to have fun by using a army with variations, and i keep winning u and say hah u got no skill... What would u say paolai... ?
u would say as me and all else, u are the one with no skill, and u are just afraid... and u dunno what honour means... and u got no honour *
THIS IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN * vets just dont take the unfair GAHH armies... play the game to have fun, with using different faction/armies tactics. (and this will give u more (challenge).
The never ending history...
Nash, u should see the difference. Of course MTW needs skills, thats obvious, but lets see:
1. If u are in the main battle and u try to retry some units (even after u have use your reserves...) to make another envolving movement the only thing u will see is your whole army routing. Agree? Well, it means that one time u start fighting u can go to play Praetorians like AMP did.
2. If u choose a strong army u have the 70% of the job done (IMHO). And if u dont know how to do it just play 1 game with a vet and then copy his army (so not so complicated).
With having that in mind, u can say that skills are very less important now, i have no doubt regarding that now (and i have tested it on my own: i really had very HIGH problems to win Magy on STW as many of u. I won some, but very very few. Well, on MTW i also have problems to win him, of course, but i can say not soooo big as on STW, because if i pick a nice strong army, keep my flanks protect and move a bit fast and just go straight against his h2h units i can win some games against him if i have just a bit luck, and he of course is better than me, so the difference between player's skills are less now).
Skills are necessary, but not SO necessary nowadays. Sadly.
Nash,
I like this game more than other games, but my opinion is that on STW/MI you had to have more talents/Skill to win a game than on MTW, thats all, and beleive me, I am not saying that cause I dunno the game mechanisms....maybe I know them too well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
LRossaLordJimi
05-06-2003, 12:10
In Belt challenge players have many restrictions about army choosin,map,florins etc. Many times two player have to face with a similar army with the same factions,but many time i see the stronger general win(sometime player with less error win).If is not skill,why he win? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif
So about what AMP say and his all cav or biza stand-up-play-praetorians-drink beer-watch tv-army,he just found the best way to win,every pc game have one:a game is not reality,this is just some numeric algorythm with some fall.But people who like fun just love to found another way to win than the easiest http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Ave
well firstly baz. that army would toast on that desert map, so id keep them moving, and you can use horse archers for that. Getting them tired before hitting your army will see you rout those guys in secconds flat.
as for all this talk on skill and army, so what if you believe army is 70% of the skill, what about that other 30%? if you are more skilled and can use your army better than the opponent can use his, then you will surley win. I have beaten all cav spanish armies, and they dont scare me. What i thinkt he problem is, is that we have too many people stuck in a STW mentality, where all the units actually had a role to play, here in MTW there are some units with very small roles, if any at all. But when it comes to chosing units the main ones i chose tend to cover close to 70% of those available. of those 70% i can win nearly any setup i chose, not based on army, but based on skill.
Hell if army was such a factor, then i could select all, then rush your center unit and win
LRossaLordJimi
05-06-2003, 12:30
So maybe we have centered the point:in STW you have less factions and units choosin,and traps and skill are more important,in MTW you have much more combinations,and obviusly some are best,some better,but you can mix with desert or era or upgrade factors and this give at the game more variety.
But maybe this discussion will never end with a definitve point http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Ave
Tactical overlook and keeping ur army together
(dont know if the thread is abotu something else now, dont have the time to read through 4 apges)
Crandaeolon
05-06-2003, 12:39
Here's some hope for the poor bastards who choose to play honourably against AMP's cheese armies... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
AMPfortress.zip (http://personal.inet.fi/private/jonsu/AMPfortress.zip)
It was a pretty fun game. Some good teamwork by the RTKs with me filling the role of a sacrificial lamb. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
I haven't played STW much, but even I can admit that it benefits more from skill than MTW. Still, even cheese armies can be beaten with the right counters... the problem is that these counters are often much weaker than the überarmies. It's next to impossible for an all-cavalry army(with no horse archers) to win an 8-spear, 4-arb and 4-halberdier army which is in a box formation, but the anti-cav army would be a disaster against most balanced armies. The box formation also means that the spear army can't move anywhere, and that's just suicide in team games. On the other hand, the all-cav can win a balanced army quite easily and is very useful in team games because of its speed.
@ gaz: hmmm, u think u found a new super units in the turks?
well done.... enlight me plz with some news about units i dont know.....
@nash: if u win about 65 games in a row u call this skill?
if u sit and cant be rushed u call that skill?
it say maybe its harder to rush u at all.
we all agree about that u need some skill, but like AMP said and some other u need less skill in mtw as u needed in STW there are not many tactics in MTW as any tactical points are gone, no cavarcher no shooters with some danger.... so u can reduce it to an melee-charge-addbonuss game. the most battles are decided by rushes with lots of cavs at 1 point, mostly just behind each other, so not even some nice maneuvers....its just abotu tio reduce the moral of the enemy and rout 1 unit, if this is skill ......
koc
Wolf_Nashwan
05-06-2003, 12:48
I agree with u LordJimi... finnaly someone understand what i meaning.
Others* please read carefully my mails in spain forum, my talking in my and alrowans discussion* and the mails i sent here. And i am sure u allso will understand what i am trying to say.
u people keep comparing with that vets can use unbalanced armies and win... but thats not the thing*
the thing is veterans should not use this unfair armys and here the problem is solved AINT IT?
Its u vets that keep saying that the game aint about skill (veterans) go play other veterans with balanced armys and u will see that u need all the skill u can get to win http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
hehe guys... enogh of now for me* i must go to scholl...
but please guys who dosent agree with me, go read my mails i sent. I have gaving tips advises and all sorta stuff u want to give u more challenge and more fun.
DO IT PLZ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif / cuz this aint leading no where, cuz it seemmed u havent listned to what i got to say... just keep comming up with stuff i already know about, but can be solved.
THIS I EDIT AFTER READ KOCMOCS POST: kocmoc i say i dident have any clue i would get rushed about the some players i fought in my 65 games, i fought em in middle with my SKILL was able to flank em out.
I dident play a really veteran rusher in thoose games but i just dont care if did and lost, cuz honout would be in my side.
AND kocmoc i say YES *
the 67 games i won in row was tottaly made of skill.
if u say anything else, so would u say against ur self* cuz this would mean that the 18 wins against me wasent about skill either. HeHe
in my 67 games i fought em all in middle fair* with a balanced army + my skill i did it with, nothing else.
Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Crandaeolon
05-06-2003, 12:48
Quote[/b] ]Hell if army was such a factor, then i could select all, then rush your center unit and win
A couple of months ago I experimented with the loose-thin-line cavalry charge and found that I could rout any balanced and even some anti-cav armies with a few mouseclicks and other commands after deployment. I can't remember if it was CBR, Paul or someone else, but in one game a very good general got routed with a grand total of 2 commands given. (Alt+doubleclick followed by shift+doubleclick.)
A "balanced" 4x4x4x4 army could survive only if they were expecting the rush and deployed in a formation designed to defend against cav. If you want, we can try it if we happen to be online at the same time. (Another "test" to add to the list... I wonder when InActivision bothers to send that damned Viking Invasion to me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif)
Edit: Just to set the record straight, I agree with Nash & others that if the armies are roughly same, then it's skill what decides the battle. Also we could argue that army selection and proper deployment are skills among others. Depends on your point of view I guess.
who says there is no more tactical advantages to be had anymore?
my only qualm with tactical limitations in MTW is the tiny battlefields. They dont leave enough real room for any smart play in the larger 3v3 and 4v4 games. Apart from that, i tend to have a lot of fun with light cav an horse archers... sneaking them behind enemy lines, decoys... eveything. Some times it doesnt win me the battle, but i guess if these units were ever upgraded id have a solid base for playing
....sometimes I think we are talking about 2 different games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Forgive me to restate the obvious but it seems that there is some confusion around.
So, I think that everyone agrees:
1) Army selection is important.
2) You need skill to win.
3) A skilled general with a strong army can win most of his/her games.
What the vets trying to say (imho), please listen Alrowan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
1) MTW favours a more direct apporach than STW/MI (i.e. rush armies).
2) As a reuslt you need less skill to play MTW than to play STW/MI.
3) In turn skill counts less in MTW than in STW/MI.
Please observe that
1)No one said that you dont need skills at all (though there is some cheese charge that requires minimal skills, see Cranda's description).
2) No one said that you cannot play fun battles (but it very much depends on the army choice of your opponent, also note that desert and winter battles favour a more tactical approach, imho no one denied it).
These are not black and white statements but comparisons. You need less skill, MTW favours head-on attacks more than STW/MI, etc. Also, to compare something to an other you should have some experience about both http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Cheetah
PS. Alrowan, how many times have you played with AMP, Magy or Kocmoc both in MTW or in STW/MI? I ask this because it seems that you have a very strong oppinion about them.
Wolf_Nashwan
05-06-2003, 16:21
Chetaah i agree with u mostly, but i must say (yes) there was said that said this game aint about skill, and this is how this started.
My solution: All veterans should know that if u use a balanced army it will give u most of challenge and most of fun.
veteran vs veteran, newBs vs newBs, + fair armys gives the nicest game
There are many veterans out there, and new veterans comming every day, allso new players come about everyday.
I actually havent much of problems with playing newB rushers, or newB players playing unfair, becaouse it just gives me harder challenge and this i want to have fun, Allso the honour is on my side.
Btw thanks cheetah for gathering facts and made a mail, so we can all see.
Heheh as many say lets hope that VI will make it even more fair and fun and more about skill, than this games given us.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif bad i havent saved money for it tough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
That's pretty much what we've been saying Cheetah, thanks for summarising it up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Quote[/b] ]So, I think that everyone agrees:
1) Army selection is important.
2) You need skill to win.
3) A skilled general with a strong army can win most of his/her games.
A good army that suits your playing style is obviously needed. AMP is probably the most skilled player in the community and I believe his examples may be a little far fetched. MTW still needs a good dose of skill. I never seen a 5-day newbie beating a skilled veteran (= +1 years at least of TW, most guys posting here played for +3 yrs... veteranship mostly means experience not skill) on a consistent basis by just using a balanced army. The last point is very true...an MTW player who learns the basic skills and applies them to a strong army will have much more possibilities of winning than an STW player with the same credits.
Quote[/b] ]
1) MTW favours a more direct apporach than STW/MI (i.e. rush armies).
2) As a reuslt you need less skill to play MTW than to play STW/MI.
3) In turn skill counts less in MTW than in STW/MI.
MTW is too static. Armies are heavily armoured and slow. A light army is difficult to play with and few would risk getting one in games that count. Shogun was the testament of fast, light-armoured shock troops...maybe that's why most vets see a lack of "movement". The use of light armoured cavalry and horsearchers isn't encouraged in MTW...remember: MTW is a game for the masses (=quite easy to win once decently mastered), Shogun was quite elitist in its concept. Skill really *shined* more.
Conclusion...Skill is still probably the *ultimate* deciding factor when playing several times against a certain player. If Kocmoc beats Nashwan 10/12 we can safely say that Kocmoc is more skilled. However...the differences between players in MTW are far less jaw-dropping than those in STW/MI, because MTW (for all the reasons listed in all these posts) needs less skill...my inferiority in raw skill compared to AMP will be much more evident in a nice game of Shogun 1.12 to end it all. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Tera.
well when you look at it, there were two different styles of combat for each period as well.
in the shogun era, combat was more graceful, and there was more of a focus on wide warfare
in the medieval period, battles tended to be head on in europe.
so i guess the games accuratly reflect both
Jemasze Toda
05-06-2003, 17:04
Hail everyone
Although one could call myself a "vet" for being around the Totalwar-community since the early days of good old STW, i do not play often enough anymore to consider myself a "good" player in MTW.
Why do i not play more often nowadays?
Is it because MTW does not require the amount of skill that fantastic players like me need in order to squeeze enough fun as food for the ego out of the game?
Yes, that is the reason. This game is boring and unrewarding for ME, the demi-god of Totalwar-multiplayer experience. Why is it so boring?
First: I smoke too much now and as a result of this poor habit, my overall ability to move my army successfully is diminished considerably...
Second: I am in a clan now and this fact leads to a loss of individual spirit and therefore to the assimilation of my once undisputed and unrivaled talent into the Clan's structure.
Third: Forget all i said so far and fear the day when i will be back in my former prime and kick ass.
Ahhh, one thing i gained due to playing in a clan in MTW:
You learn how to make plans, how to coordinate your efforts in a team, how to counter predictable opponents set-ups and in fact: How to kick ass in a team. Nice thing that is
Hell...i really should quit smoking.....
yours Jemasze alias the http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
(imprisoned as Manstein of Clan ELITE Force and you know what? I enjoy my prison quite a bit... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )
PS: MTW sucks
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
05-06-2003, 17:08
Every thing u guys said is just nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
hehe but one thing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif /// kocmoc please come to mtw i want some pay back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
05-06-2003, 17:13
LOL JUST WHEN EVERYTHING WAS CLEARED OUT JAMASZE COMES http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
ohh well everyone got his opinion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
FearofNC
05-06-2003, 19:28
one point i havent seen mentioned... and that i personaly believe as a major reason why mtw isnt as graceful as stw, is the fact that routing troops all flee in different directions... in stw... the line of retreat was predictable and both players knew where troops would run... this lead to a style of play amoung vets that centered on making a unit rout through other troops casuing an auto rout.. so the players would move around each other... but they would always have to keep in mind the direction that their troops would run..
or you could have an embargo style game... an example of this is when the defender camped the hill in totomi... the attacker could advance on the right and block the campers line of retreat... if any of his units routed they would just run into a meat grinder with no hope of rally...
stw emphisesed position much more than mtw... but only by way of imperfections... we all know that the troops wouldnt react so predictable and we all asked for the change for mtw.. we just never stoped to think that this change would severly reduce the amount of positional warfare that occured in mtw...
i dont think we should go back to the game playing like that... i for one find it more challenging now to heard routers in the direction i want... or to predict what direction they will flee and use this to my atvantage when selecting my attack stragity.. for those who never played shogun... using routing troops is a skill that has served stw vets well in many many battles..
a brief word on balancing... can we plz go back to standard unit sizes... i dont see any benifit to having some troops with 100 men and some with 20.. its simply too hard to balance all the stats when there are so many different unit sizes... if you want some troops to take up more room than others, i think stw is a perfect example... all units were 60 men but cav took up twice the room...
Magyar Khan
05-06-2003, 19:40
As one of the top 3 players in the Total War series i can safely say that MTW requires less "shiny" skill. Tera is again speaking the truth on this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
More than in every former version of TW i loose a game once in a while where somethimes i didnt made one single major mistake when my enemy is making a dozen of them and i was even making use of them.
Ofcourse teh game requires skill as movement, planning, micromanaging and so on. But more than before unitselection has becoming important. Believe me if i say, in general 3 arbs are better than 4 arbs. 100 men units are less usefull as their size may make u think against skilled opponents. Archery is not good enuf (besides some high upgraded inf which are usefull in hth). 20 cav knights suck and 40 cav knights at v0 with weapon upgrades are a good buy. every cav u have less than enemy makes u vulnerable, because rear and flank bonusses are more imporatnat just after the final major class than any kills u do in teh front and so on.
Since we dont own CA all w ecan do is adapt to this new game and hope the next version (read patch) brings more tactical fun.
I am aware shiny tactical battles in earlier TW were just mastered by a few but remember teh battles where u sended cav departments to certain parts of the map, earlier horsearcher skirmishes and so on. I know some mizu vets dont like a long shooting phase but this foreplay is a part of teh game too like it is in s e x (or should be http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif).
Jemasze why u keep saying u dont play much as every wolf know u have more undercover names than we have fresh sheeps on our pasture. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Some believe my logfilereader sents lists of names of people use online to my email-adress.
now i know why you made the tool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
lol@alrowan it was only an example from a custom game i dont like desert http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif hehe
Wolf_Nashwan
05-06-2003, 21:54
SISAAD /// KOCMOC
U INVITED ME TO GAME
SEC I WENT IN U INSULTED ME
OUR OPPONENTS WASENT SO GOOD
SO I WANTED / CHALLENGE / I TOOK EGYPT, 4 CAVS ARCHERS + some alans ... WEAK ARMY *
GAME STARTED AND MY ALLIE IN RIGHT HAD A RUSH ARMY, I COVERED HIM IN MISSAIL WAR BY SENDING HIM 5 cavelerys 2 1 camel 2 alan, 2 cav archers
MEANWHILE I SENT U SISAAD 2 cav archers 1 CAMEL 1 ALAN
IN MIDDLE I HAD MY INFS AGAINST MY FREE OPPOENT
THEY ALL HAD TONS OF HEAVY CAVS, I STARTED WITH A ATTEMPT TO KILL SISSADS OPPONENTS ARBS, WAS A FAILURE BECAUSE A HEAVY CAV NOTICED IT, I BACKED UP / FLANKED IT THEN CAME 1 more UNIT FROM HIM, I TOOK MY CAMEL AND CLEARED IT UP, MEANWHILE THIS MY OPPOENT SENT 3 heavy cavs to my camel, i flanked with my general, BUT 1 MORE CAVE TOOK HIS SIDE *
TIME MY GENERAL DIES (SISAAD /// KOCMOC) INSULTED ME * HE SAID WASENT IT U THAT TALK ABOUT SKILL ?
U GOT NO SKILL
U SUCK
AND MANY BAD WORDS
WE WON THIS GAME BTW*
HE REAVILED HIS NAME BY A COCKY WAY* SAYING IT IS ME THAT KICKED UR ASS 18 TIMES IN ROW*
RIGHT NOW I AM REAL PISSED OF KOCMOC.
THIS WAS ALL A TRICK WASENT IT?
U THINK U CLEAVER NOW HAH ?
I WILL PAY BACK KOCMOC 1 way or the other
NOW ITS GONE TO FAR *
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
The sit and do nothing strategy was used in original STW.
AMP used it very effectively. As I recall, it was his main strategy in team games, and extremely difficult to beat. I only saw him defeated once when using it in STW. I've seen him beaten several times trying this in MTW, and I believe it has to do with the difficulty of pursuing units which rout in all directions. However, he didn't use the Byzantines in those games.
Wolf_Nashwan,
They hide behind fake names so if they loose they don't loose face. If they win they rub it in your face. If they happen to loose in their known name, they say skill was not a factor, and they have been doing this since the days of STW and driven several good players away from the game. This behavior spoils the game for people much more than any unbalance or game mechanics problems will. These people can't stand it that some of us like the game. I suggest, the moment the swearing, sarcasism or demeaning starts, exit the game and put that name on your ignore/ban list.
Nash,
Calm down mate, it's just a game. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Kocmoc is one of the top three players and he probably (as a clanmate too) wanted to deflate your ego a bit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Vendicative moods are the worst, they make you say and do things without thinking beforehand...
As for Kocmoc's undercover crusade to humiliate you, I wouldn't like that a clanmate did that on me, so I understand you, but hell, it's just a game.
Tera
Magyar Khan
05-07-2003, 00:40
That isnt nice of an undercover vet, ur a nice wolf Nash. Try to direct the energy of your anger to bring him his head.
My cham is on its way.
spacecadet
05-07-2003, 00:41
Maggy,
As one of the top 4 players in the TotalWar series http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif i agree generally with what you are saying. Not long after MTW came out you tried to promote a set of stats that you and Kocmoc created with changes which roughly approximates what has been quoted as being done to VI (i.e increased morale, useful (cav)archers and spears and adjusted heavy cavs). If i remember rightly, this stat provided the necessary x-factor (shinyness!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif) thats being argued about. I hope that VI solves the problems and reduces the complaining/arguing from both sides (not that i believe the arguing/complaining will disappear http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ). Anyway we'll find out soon enough.
As for Amp being able to beat opponents with hands tied behind his back and both eyes closed - perhaps he should try playing with worse armies to get a challenge (although frankly ive seen him play with some quite awful armies and still manage defeat opponents, although these were admittedly newbies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif )
Nash,
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Space
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
i dont believe in hiding behind a fake name, it shows dishonour and deception. If players who are considered good, do this just so that they dont lose face, then they have already lost any respect i had for them. A truly great general goes into game with one name and one name only. If he loses he loses humbly, and if he wins, he does not laud it over his enemy. That is the way of honour
Magyar Khan
05-07-2003, 01:28
hiding behind a new name can have many purposes like,
checking out new clan-members-wannabees, see how they react on little flames and brags for example.
spying on -new- clans, check why they are so confident
being able to play around with stupid armies without a noob bragging he beated u.
checking out possible cheaters
and many others will have other reasons.
Mithrandir
05-07-2003, 01:51
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
.. in this case, going by the # of undercover nicks, doesnt it make Jemasze the http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif the most dishonorable warrior around http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif .. ouch *j/k Jemasze http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif*
I have a couple of other names.. only good friends know about them.. mainly I use them so that when I lose, no one know I belong to SG and think that we sux just because I sux. When I win I keep quiet. I'm in proper name when playing with clanmates.. thats because I can put all the blame on them when we lose. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Jemasze Toda
05-07-2003, 04:04
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif ...and as i said: Too much smoking results in horrible play on the battlefield.
Long ago my army decided that i am not really a general to be trusted. This unfortunate point of view has some major consequences:
My troops march when THEY will and only very seldom at my command.
If i say run they move as slowly as a herd of oxens just to see the dumb expression on my face.
I call for attack? My cav moves in opposite direction, most likely to a nearby hill in order to watch from afar the ongoing fiasko of the "Battle".
Often enough i get completely ignored and while my army smiles satanically at me, the enemy approaches.
My shrill voice can be heard in the wind, commanding my main frontline to attack in a broad line to get full impact.
Reaction of my beloved men?
To one spot in enemy line they rush madly,
they get smashed -damn- badly,
and end up running NOT gladly.
When i come up with bad poems, they take no notice at all.
Such is the relationship of General Jemasze and the poor lot called his army by some ignorants.
And you wonder why i play undercover, using one of my zillion names in order to hide my face from the sun?
Not really, don't you?
Next time you win against a stranger popping up out of nowhere and you thought all the time during the massacre:
Unbelievable This army is commanded by a fool
....well, exactly that it is. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
yours http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
FearofNC
05-07-2003, 07:08
nash:
koc is a tough teacher.... as a mentor he will confide everything... but when you fail to produce the results he trained you for he sometimes gets upset... maybe a good discussion on the battles tatical points... where the mistakes were made... where to best improve..maybe these will help you 2 smooth over any ruff wolfie fur.. i can honestly say both of you are very kind persons and it would be a shame if there was hard feeling between ya.. it absoluty none of my business... i just hope things work out for ya... i can remember many a good scoldings from koc during my training http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif its tough love... nothing serious i hope http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
p.s. next time i cya online ill go over my cookbook on beating kocmoc http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
hehe.. j/k mike
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
ErikJansen
05-07-2003, 07:32
Quote[/b] (Wolf_Nashwan @ May 06 2003,15:54)]SO I WANTED / CHALLENGE / I TOOK EGYPT, 4 CAVS ARCHERS + some alans ... WEAK ARMY *
Was that the army you were going to use vs me in those matches we tried to setup? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Did you get the problem with crashing during upload of the battle fixed Nash? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
As for undercover names n such, doesn't bother me that ppl use them, each his own http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
hmmm nash,
maybe u shouldnt speak in such way in such a forum?
ur lucky that i dont write what u said http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
so better think twice before u start to speak this way.
undercover? lol whats ur prob i dont need to tell other if i have won who i am, and i didnt this. sometimes i offer to tell them if i lose....
if im undercover i can just do what i want, i can use several armys i can test something, if i win 10 games it dont count but if someone beat me 1 of 11 games than they cry thw whole foyer, this is anoyong and press me to use always the same boring (for me) setup to make sure i can win it.
the most see my style and know anyway who iam, so it doesnt matter. i lost many games and never did moan, just of someone is doin stupid things without looking on his own mistakes. and ofcourse its nice to get called "shut up noob"....or something like this.
anyway plz back to topic
ur little "fool" kocmoc
ELITEofGAZOZ
05-07-2003, 09:17
My dear Clanmate Manstein http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
you seem to be f***ed up by MTW. But honestly, is it really because of all the reasons wrote in this topic?
We both now, what men we are. We have an ego, yes. And we love women, don´t we? Totalwar is/was like a woman for us. Some relationships of other players were even at risk, because of the addiction to Totalwar.
We f***ed this TW-girl every day over a year. At the start, we were so proud to have a chick like her in the bed. But you and me, can´t be proud for a whole year, that´s a very long time for men like we both, isn´t it? A man can´t eat every day potatoe soup, can he?
The girl, we loved so much at the begin, is not as interesting anymore as the cute young neighbour with here long legs and long hairs or the sweet secretary in the office. Hmm, our phantasy leaves the bedroom, which we are sharing with our girl, we start to get bored by our own girl friend.
Our girl friend knows our bad macho character and don´t want us to leave here (Maybe she just needs our money?). She starts to bring an add-on, a tit transplantation.
Woohooo, big boobs. That´s chicken soup tastes well. We have new fun in the bed But for how long?. A man can´t eat chicken soup every day, can he?
After two years s*x with the same girl we don´t do it every day for hours like we did at the begin, we reduce s*x. Only when we get bored, we jump into her bed.
The girl is disappointed. She starts a new strategy. She goes to the sunbed, starts a diet to slim here fat hip, shaves here ****, buys hot lingerie and stockings etc pp and tataaaa, she thinks a new age has started...
but hell, does it work?
No We are not interested in this girl anymore. We f*** the new styled old girl several times and say to here: "S*x isn´t so enjoyable with you, like at the begin"
"Why?" She asks and cries. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
"Look at yourself You are not the same girl we had two years ago You are different That´s not the girl, I loved. Piss off"
And m8, don´t you think, you d be bored by this girl anyway? With or without the new boobs. Cause you are a man. You have an ego. You need diversion.
Or did you play Mongol Invasion 12 hours a day a short time before of the release of Medieval Total War?
Weren´t you bored anyway by this game? Isn´t that the truth reason, why our critic is so harsh in Medieval?
The critic might be truth at many points. But it is not the reason why many vets stopped playing Total War.
There is not one of the new members of our community, who go and buy STW/MI after playing Medieval and who says: "Yeah guys, thats true what you´re all saying, Shogun is really much better than Medieval, I never expected that I will stick on STW/MI as from now."
And for being in ELITE: This must be like marrying the boring girl http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
05-07-2003, 09:20
Í did newer call u noob be4 u started insulting me.
I can agree that i dident do my best game there, but i was exepting more cover to my cavs (as a thanks), i saw u sent some heavy cavs to help / but they game to late.
hmm kocmoc * tell me please, why did u insult me be4 the game and in the game ? my kill ratio was cool in the game allso, and espessially as i am a clan member u should newer do this.
As i remember the game i dident do a big mistake, i flanked with my general, after that i saw 3 heavy cavs moving in... there was nothing i could do.
kocmoc i was real pissed of u insulted me in a sucha way, (i tell u all about things i did / came from my anger) /// first he called me i got no skill... i suck / i am still noob as be4, i am impatiente. allso be4 game i asked him if he was a undercover veteran, he said no i am just a weak noob... this weak noob as u self called urself insulted me ina sucha way... i would say of course i would say shut up noob. Because ur a famous veteran u can behave how u like.
BUT today when i woke up, my anger is away.
I am now looking for ways to forget all this.
but first kocmoc
U must tell me
Was this all a trap ?
Why ?
why did u insult ur own clan m8 like that ?
AND EDIT AWAY THE STUFF U CALLED ME FOOL AGAIN THERE AT UR LAST MAIL.
i had done nothing...
and u must say sorry.
then i will shake hands.
Wolf_Nashwan
nash i think u still dont understand.
i wrote....ur little fool kocmoc i mean myself with this, lol its just a joke as jemasze wrote his post....thats all.
before the game i was joking.... calm down and dont take it so serious, i just tell everyone direkt what i think and feel u played bad, and reacted like u didnt any mistakes, i was helping u but i did know that we will lose it as we was too close to them. if it wasnt u i never would had helped u there ur impatient, and do many mistakes as u try to do too many things at once
u should have moved on ur right and not on my left....
and i never say sorry for saying "u played shit" or "this was crap" as it was shit and crap
i dont blame u for using a weak army, but im angered about such mistakes as it just spoiled a game and waste my time.
koc
Clan life eh? who needs it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] (baz @ May 07 2003,06:03)]Clan life eh? who needs it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Antagonism and rivalry more than that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Kenchi 'fool' Tera http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
well i shal always play with my name. I shal win with it, train with it, lose with it and experiment with it. People accept that, and being honouable in defeat as well as victory makes it all the more special online
Well i think i must lol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
So we were correct Sisaad was indeed a wolf, and a rather cocky one (no insult intended but idmit u acted cocky)
I must say i dont like either Kocs os Nashs description of the battle.
First Nash called us week oppononents in his post. Week, we, the mighty FFs, let me once again lol.
WEll true i guess we are a bit weeker then the Wolves but in this battle u didnt prove that at all, i hope u can agree with that.
In fact Nash in my opinion had a cavkillerarmy with camels and mamlukcavalry (armourpiercing), though the climate negated some of the camels strenght i think, and Sisaad (Koc) also had cav and one on ur side was all cav so if anyone had cavadvantage it was ur side.
Reagarding Nash helping Sisaad against me all ur cav attacks were timed wrong i think, and u both were very reckless with ur generals (i think u underestimated us maybe). Result; I with help from center (FF VIking i think) routed Sisaad off table and hurt Nash really bad. I say again u prolly are better (which koc has proved when he faced me one on one on some occasion) but u didnt work together and u timed allmost everything wrong in this battle.
Thanks to ur cav ally u prolly would have won the battle anyway in the end but u all got so upset so u left lol.
So in the end;
Sisaad did not act nice and didnt play very well.
There was nothing wrong with Nashs army he just didnt use it to well either.
I also belive it very wrong from Nash to say FF are week and blame armyselection on that since one of our clanmates defeted him twice in a row some time ago so one think he should have learned. Replays of these two battles exist so no point in denying it.
Well back to work for me now, hope i didnt anger anyone just felt that the description of the battle wasnt fair to us.
Kalle
Crandaeolon
05-07-2003, 13:01
Hm, perhaps MTW has "flattened out" the skill differences between players _and_ clans alike... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Swoosh So
05-07-2003, 13:05
Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ May 07 2003,06:08)]nash:
koc is a tough teacher.... as a mentor he will confide everything... but when you fail to produce the results he trained you for he sometimes gets upset... maybe a good discussion on the battles tatical points... where the mistakes were made... where to best improve..maybe these will help you 2 smooth over any ruff wolfie fur.. i can honestly say both of you are very kind persons and it would be a shame if there was hard feeling between ya.. it absoluty none of my business... i just hope things work out for ya... i can remember many a good scoldings from koc during my training http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif its tough love... nothing serious i hope http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
p.s. next time i cya online ill go over my cookbook on beating kocmoc http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
hehe.. j/k mike
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
hehe i remember getting scolded from kocmoc too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif mainly for rushing in early. Guess it was hard for me to get trained by him because i was already set in my ways by then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
What was this??
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
i had no choice
i had to help or watch how his 3 cavs get massacred, so i did risk some help and hoped that his cavs dont rout to fast, i cant move whole army. if i had u both would have moved together and that could nash never control as he was bussy on the other side. so i dont agree that i played bad (not well) i just had not a choice.
maybe u remeber the battle before this 3v3....
the point is that nash play good in 1v1 but he isnt a great teamplayer especially he get much probs to play as center and control both sites properly. he moved cavs in where wasnt need for this, like he always do....many moves with many mistakes....and than he get tired as well....
he is a player who is agressiv and this will work in 1v1 but he need to win the game within the first 10 mins, if he dont get a good position in the first 10 mins of the battle he lost, as the most units of him are more tired as urs, i told him this but he still do this mistakes....anyway u played well and i dont moan about a loss. im just angry about how we lost, sometimes its better to let some units die as to risk a full rout, this is what happend there, so its our mistake and we deserved that defeat as we didnt played as a good team.
this isnt about who is better.....its about bad teamplay and we did show what u shouldnt do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
so plz let this end here as we are going offtopic.
koc
spacecadet
05-07-2003, 13:15
Your nearly right Cran.......it took less skill for me in our 4x4 last night to rush up that hill with my almoheads to rout that Byzantium infantry army, than it was to defend http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Space
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Mithrandir
05-07-2003, 13:49
Quote[/b] (spacecadet @ May 07 2003,07:15)]Your nearly right Cran.......it took less skill for me in our 4x4 last night to rush up that hill with my almoheads to rout that Byzantium infantry army, than it was to defend http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Space
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
And about this whole topic, people wonder I didnt join a clan ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Magyar Khan
05-07-2003, 13:55
well mith consider that perhaps a clan dont want u http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Mithrandir
05-07-2003, 13:56
Quote[/b] (Magyar Khan @ May 07 2003,07:55)]well mith consider that perhaps a clan dont want u http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I already considered that, and I know thats the real reason, but I moved on to ignorance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
Magyar Khan
05-07-2003, 14:01
For Nash
Life is harsh on teh Plains of Battle, there are rabied creatures around but the everlasting natural selection of species will ensure some prevail while others find their doom. You are young, your path is long, the skulls and the bones will tell the Tale of the Young Wolf.... (where is the damn Shaman when u need him http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)
Wolf Nash check your email
Ah Koc, u seem much nicer when u are not Sisaad http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Sorry i dont remember the battle before the 3 vs 3 as i was not in it, though my teammates in the 3 vs 3 were in the battle i think u refer to and they were a bit annoyed lol.
But i remember another battle when i played u one on one where u proved ur skill hitting me wherever u wanted whenever u wanted lol , u killed me good in that one so i dont question ur skill at all, i know u r very good. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Back to work again (u guys must wonder what nice job i have that i can get here writing every now and then lol)
Kalle
Wolf_Nashwan
05-07-2003, 17:10
I dont wanna post here at this topic, but there is something i wanna say to kocmoc, and to the ff players.
Kocmoc, u where right u had no choice... and what i realised when game started was, that my army is not made to play on that 3v3 team game, i told this to my allies... allie sisaad told me, well send me ur camel... so that was that made me give my cavs, and try to / with the infs i got hold against my opponent, i was planned to get covered and this i asked about allso...
when my general died... ur started insulting me.
That time i got so pissed of that i even had thinkings about leave and create my own clan... couldent sleep good that night, when i woke up i was thinking about what i was missing, and all my m8s.
Kocmoc please just tell me ur sorry * and i will forgive, i know ur a good m8.
BTW i must say sorry to the ff clan m8s if u guys took my last mail as an insult... i dident mean that, it was just my anger flow.
As i said earlyer that day when someone asked if ff is a good clan, i told em its is a new clan, starting to get real good, and are good persons. This i still think m8s http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Wolf_Nashwan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Ah, is ok Nash, i think all FFs who knows u think u r nice and skilled player. Thank u for saying those good words of us to whatever person u were talking to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
This is a case of a game too far, again. GAH
Only used two/three names ever:
Vamp
kapikulu
Sinan or SeljukSinan
Now it's Sinan, that's me while I'm around. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Skomatth
05-08-2003, 00:54
This has already been said but I'll put it in an easier to understand example form.
I take the well balanced 4x4x4x4 setup.
Someone else takes 5 cav, 8 sword, 3 pavs.
By simple unit selection he has me beat, all he has to do is move his army correctly. Not taking a unit type or taking too much of one should render someone at a disadvantage. Currently it doesn't except in obscure cases.
a nice subtle subject change there sko and i agree with you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
@Glor ignorance is bliss http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
thing is, i bet this is the first topic you came to when you visited the org, dont that tell you something http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
TenkiKiller
05-08-2003, 20:51
Quote[/b] (MF_Ivan @ May 01 2003,20:03)]GAH George Patton is a fool, he arrived to an already won war. He can stick it GAH Give me Scipio Africanus, Guderian, Rommel, Heinrici, Wavell, Zhukov, Koniev Then you have a general and not some wanna-be winner.
hey m8, i hope ure not perpousefully forgetting napoleon? (i'm a gr8 fan of his) he was a sound tactician and stratagician. and he was lucky *always important*
Magyar Khan
05-10-2003, 01:38
if people forget the truly master Subudei than i know enuf...
Krasturak
05-10-2003, 10:07
Gah
If you add up the "Gah", "Cut head, make soup" and "Gah Cut head Gah" votes, it ties with the one other most popular option.
So, it appears many agree with Krast: aggression is the most important skill.
So there.
Skomatth
05-10-2003, 19:20
After searching for subudei I found your mongol site Magyar. Very nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
05-19-2003, 22:40
Hi all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
I have been thinking much about the question if this game is much bout skill or not. As u seen in my other mails i defended (its skill) but thing is... the more and more i c / i c u guys where right after all.
I am a veteran / been on since STW and MI / learnt much from my Thousands battles... but since MTW relised i felt like i lost my touch of skill. But this was not true (the thing is that/ now it depends more on chosing the right army "the unfair army" (to win).
well meaby some new units came... but as mag told me and that i agreed with: example there is bout 15 types of spears dosent mean its better, cuz (some "wanna winners" only chose the best). Same thing with swords, cavs missails...
In STW and MI both players had same possibilitys to win the battle (the battle skill was what depended).
Much fast playing, make up cool tactics, reflexes...
What veterans do here to play same as old times is: Using the unspoken rule, "they take fair balanced armys".
NewBs, Noobs mostly play to win: (they take the best army they can get.
NewBs, Noobs vs Veterans--- and "boom" there is the crash, as ppl said the difference between vets and noobs is lesser here/ (is correct).
Well this is the problem i see with mtw.
(so my final words) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif m8s veteran, newB, noobs. Play fair Let the unspoken rule/ be a rule for ur games, example like i see many have name on game "no arty".
This is a good beggining http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
ElmarkOFear
05-20-2003, 01:19
Most important skill in playing MTW is: Learning to be humble and taking direction from others if they choose to take the initiative in a team game.
In the past, as a Fear, in 4v4 games, I was looked to as the leader of the attack. My teammates liked this, because I would normally set myself up in the middle to be attacked by several armies at once. My old teammates being aware of this, would set back and wait for the right moment to flank the double/triple teams. I always routed, and my teammates ended up with many kills and most often the win. That is why they call me the Master of the Routing army. It was a viable strategy in STW. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Since I became Ugly and played for fun, I stopped leading as much. It was nice to set back and let someone else shoulder the responsibility for awhile. Besides, MTW made the "sacrifice yourself for the good of the team" tactic unviable. VI has changed this somewhat.
I have recently started leading in 4v4 games again. This has caused some problems with those who have not seen me this way before. I have noticed a few ruffled feathers and incredulity from some very skilled teammates who have only seen my "fun" side. Every game needs someone to plan a direction of attack. Skill must be coordinated for it to be effective. If somebody takes the initiative to come up with a plan, be humble enough to listen and to try it out. You may be surprised by how effective some odd sounding tactics are. A team of skilled players is not necessarily as powerful as a team of coordinated average players. Fearful Ways proved this back in the STW days. At the start, we were not the most talented group of players individually, but as a team not many could beat us often.
Here is an example of an old Fear strategy that won many a game for us back in the STW days: The middle guy (normally me) would buy an army that would be mostly foot troops that could hold off a double-team for awhile. My job would be to isolate a player from his other three teammates and hold long enough for our double team on left side of map to be over with. I would get slaughtered and routed, but my teammates normally had an easy time killing their guy and were more fresh than the enemies that fought, routed, and chased my guys off the map. Remember: defenders have to chase you further to get you off the map and thus are more tired and more likely to be spread out. The 4th teammate on the right was responsible for harrassing the ones attacking me or picking up the isolated chasers.
This strategy works again with the VI game, as do some of the other strategies we used. I am happy with the way it is working out in team games. I do wish there were more of the holding spear type units. Armoured spear and swiss pikes are about the only units capable of holding long enough to be useful for the above mentioned strategy.
I may have rambled and none of this may make any sense, but I am medicated and cannot be held accountable for any of my actions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hi all and above this high Nash.
I have a slight feeling ur latest post is directed vs me. If it is not please tell so and i wont make an answer much longer then this.
If indeed ur post is directed vs me (indirectly) please tell so also, cause then i would want to develop my answer a bit more.
I have now played u 1 on 1 5 times i think in the latest couple of weeks - 2 games yesterday and 3 a week or so ago. And also a couple of teamgames. And not once i think u brought an army that was not ment to win.
And also in one of the games yesterday u brought 5 arbalesters of some kind. Where is the balance in this? U only did that with the hope of me having four so u could shoot me down. But i had 5 also http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. And i had 5 for the same reason as u - i wanted to shoot u down. (dont know if its good to get five though)
So please answer the question at top here so i know if I have to develop my answer.
Kalle (FF Kalle)
ErikJansen
05-20-2003, 14:25
I agree wholly with the point you made in your post Nash that sometimes a battle can be won/lost during the army selection phase. A perfect example of this occured a few days ago in a 2v2. I chose a mobile turk army (HA's, Alans, Fut, JI, Turco foot & JHI) and got to face off vs a steamrolling byz army (4 Barney, 4 Varangs, 2 Naptha, 3 Pav xbows, 3 Pronoiai [gah]).
Using some well practiced moves I tricked his cav, including the general unit, into an ambush and eliminated them in short order. So the Byz general rushes me, and my main force was pretty far off. I'm using every trick I've learned... flanking, doubling, collapsing centre... everything... to no avail. The Byz finally force me off the map after having taken higher casualties than those inflicted on my army. It still was a real blast though, and next time I just have to do better http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I dont think no one argues with that point Erik. Of course battles can be won and lost during both factionselection and armybuying.
Buy 16 kerns and ur prolly dead for sure as an example.
Kalle
Wolf_Nashwan
05-20-2003, 16:53
Hmm kalle / my mail wasent bout you.
But now when u say... i would like to ask a question. Do u think u got better speed/reflexes/control/tactics... than me that have played many thousends battles? I know ur good and i see ur improving allot, but m8 / as i said in my last mail... since i came here to mtw i felt like i lost my skill when suddenly newBs won me, but then i realised that this game depends more % on choosing the right army... btw plz admit u had better armys in all our battles. I dont mean to insult u kalle, cuz i know ur good, but as i said Newbs that played some weeks win allso veterans played some years cuz of they using better armys, and this was what my last mail was about.
Wolf_Nashwan
05-20-2003, 17:01
Btw / all not so good, good, pretty good players who won me be4: i would like to challenge you all in a game with russia vs russia and i will show u what u mean.
well kalle, u dont understand it
go with him to mi or stw and nash will show u what skill is.
mtw is not muc hskill needed and in VI its worser as the moral spoil all away...ofcourse the bad player like it...
koc
Hi Nash (and others)
Well good ur post wasnt specifically about me. I thank u for ur good words and i hold those games we have played as some of my best because of the fact that i know u are really good.
Thats why i reacted to ur last post, i didnt want those games to be seen as "unfair" wins cause i dont think they were.
We even played same faction with 2 max rule 5 heavy cav max. If u then decide to bring 2 swiss halberdier and i instead decide to bring 2 alan mercaneries well what can i say - i dont think it is an unfair unitselection.
Is true i have not played for as many years as u, and i never played shogun like u and other vets did, but for 9 months i have played very much MTW which should count for something though.
As for the speed/reflexes/control/tactics question here goes;
As for reflexes it is just that - reflexes - has not much to do with skill is an automated thing.
Speed, control and may i add manouvering - I was impressed in allmost all our battles how u moved and controled ur men - i cant do that (yet, or not all the time at least) i admit.
But i think i used sound tactics to counter ur good moves and u never really changed tactics from game to game.
As for noobs winning vs vets. An easy solution to this "problem"(i dont think it is a major one) is to play games with rules;
4missile, 4cav, 4spear, 4 sword - 2 max - no lancers - no bys - 5 heavy cav or whatever.
That way "problem" should be solved i think.
But i think it is wrong trying to control what is a fair army within the rules that are set for a game. Only playing with exactly the same armies would not be fun for very long and more importantly;
if u mean ur opponents army isnt fair and he should bring an army that looks like yours - would that be fair to ur opponent? Why are the units u prefer and the numbers u prefer to bring more fair - ur army might not suit ur opponents style of play and thus putting him at a disadvantage.
Well i will stop here.
I hold u in the highest regards Nath - just that i dont agree with everything u say.
Hope to play with u soon again. And, yes of course we can use russians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Kalle
Quote[/b] ]I hold u in the highest regards Nath - just that i dont agree with everything u say.
Wrong by me, should say - Nash - instead of Nath.
But the quote is right though since Nath is my clanleader (tempiic) and i do not agree with her on all matters either http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Kalle
Oh koc got a message in to.
Well there is nothing wrong with my head i can tell u that,
so please dont tell me what i understand and not.
First this is not shogun it is MTW. And i have no doubt i would die in shogun and surely in MTW the majority of games but there are more ways to look at things then ur way.
Kalle
ErikJansen
05-20-2003, 18:27
Quote[/b] (Kalle @ May 20 2003,09:21)]Buy 16 kerns and ur prolly dead for sure as an example.
Kalle
Thats not really the point Kalle.
The point was to show how selecting unbalanced army setups like the cheesy byz ( I spit on them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) will give you an unfair advantage by exploiting the imbalances still in place after VI was released. How that can equalize the skill differences down to nothing. The byz general was far from a bad player, but he was no Cran, Magy or Nash either. The fact that I could draw his cav out with HA's and eliminate them with fastcav speaks volumes, even tho it was a pretty wicked trap http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif .
Its not all bad, no way, but if you play without honor, like Nash has been telling us all, you'll win a lot more on the basis of your selection only. Which is why apparently well balanced teams playerwise should also bring somewhat balanced armies as well.
This is in no way meant as a personal reference to you Kalle, its just a general statement. Your honor is above suspicion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Edit: Kalle you spammer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
05-20-2003, 18:36
hehe so what exakly dident u agree me with ?... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
btw its possible to just edit ur mail http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Wolf_Nashwan
I agree with u Erik and though my post bout the 16 kerns maybe was stupid it was ment to support ur point and Nash point in that faction and unit selction can be a gamespoiler.
Sorry bout being a little rude in that post maybe.
Well rules and honor is good for solving this i think. But is also fun to try beat those who brings these armies. If u happen to loose not so big deal if they dont start harassing u bout it of course.
Kalle
Quick replys here i must say http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Kalle
ErikJansen
05-20-2003, 18:45
We should learn to use the chat function more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
05-20-2003, 20:34
Quote[/b] (Kalle @ May 20 2003,12:15)]if u mean ur opponents army isnt fair and he should bring an army that looks like yours - would that be fair to ur opponent? Why are the units u prefer and the numbers u prefer to bring more fair - ur army might not suit ur opponents style of play and thus putting him at a disadvantage.
...
Hope to play with u soon again. And, yes of course we can use russians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Kalle
Huuummmm sometimes I think this poll (wich started as a joke by the way, I mean look at the choice...) went radically out of control.
I have no background whatsoever in STW, but have been playing intensively MTW.
I enjoyed the many different troops, faction and style of this game. I think it would be restrictive to ask somebody to prove his 'skill' by playing one certain army in one map/era configuration. I also think good players win their games, not matter what, because they understand the mechanism of the games and can move an army properly.
Sure there are some games when, like Erik, just by looking my opponent army, I can tell I will have a very very hard time. Recently it happened to me once vs Kalle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif It was more my fault than Kalle fault for sure... (I brought 6 HA... and the only target I could scratch was 1 alan... remind me of a Baz story...)
But most of the games are not like that. I am lucky enough to play with IMO very good players, some STW vets ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif guys!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif in 3v3 / 4v4, and we all bring different armies, but all armies are competitive. I don't think anybody is underplaying those games.
I win some and lose many.
But I am enjoying myself a lot.
Nobody is complaining about armies being unfair because unbalanced. Mine is pretty unbalanced. Some brings 12 cav 4 pav arb. Some comes with 'balanced' 4/4/4/4 armies. So we all come on the field with our armies and then fight, and then discuss. And guess what, I have yet to hear after the battle somebody saying 'geeeh your army is better than mine that's why you won but your skill suck'. And I think it's because we have an understanding that even with unbalanced, different armies we all have a chance by using the different strenght in our different armies...
Yes, there are some battles lost at selection screen, but not that many, or rather not that many in an unchallenging way. I don't think that when good skilled players are together anybody is underplaying more than once in a row.
If underplaying and losing; well if you suffer from the defeat, then don't underplay, and, no offense intended, that's an ego problem.
Win some, lose some, take your chance, fight hard and have fun.
Louis, the Simurgh,
PS; gee, I don't remember why I quote my fellow clanmate Kalle in the first place http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
ElmarkOFear
05-22-2003, 00:30
Speaking of 16 kern army. I played a similar type the other night . . I bought 4 amulgavars, 4 javelin men, 4 spanish jinettes and 4 archers. Of course I get the enemy that chose the all-powerful byz army LOL Needless to say, my experiment failed miserably
I haven't tried my all missile late period army yet since VI. It will probably not be as effective, since they upped the cost of the handgunner unit's upgrades. Those were my holding troops http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Louis' point about diversity in armies in team games is right, I think, as you find all kinds of armies: from 8 hc to 3 ca, but I feel that Nashwan is referrying mainly to 1v1 games, where a player only depends on its own skill/army (and the lack of skill from his/her opponent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif).
If a side brings 1 all-cav army in a 4v4 game (where it is not used as a rush-feed army or with a cheesy tactic), it doesn't make the game impossible to win for the enemy. The mixing of the 4 enemy armies make possible to find a winning path for the other side.
But in a 1v1 game, finding 8 hc in front of you makes it veeery hard to win the game (although people much better than me can win against that with some effort). Almost everybody knows that with that kind of army he/she has more options of victory than his opponent (providing they both have comparable skills). Not a sure victory, but an easier achievable one.
1v1 games should be taken in a more "paired" way. I usually doesn't play 1v1 vs unknow players, as I don't want to get a headache for seeing 8 hc's in front of me, but I like to play against hardcore players (which almost always beat me, btw), as I find these games much more enjoyable and I can learn more from that. With the hc-games I only feel like improving my reflexes, and if I were to improve that, I would play another kind of game IRL (or go sabering in Jedi Knight).
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