Jomsvikings-Myth or real??

[The Last Emperor]

Seems to me they r some infantry juggernaughts who will really strike hard at opponents ranks...but do they really exists cause it seems that vikings r usually good coast raiders but not particularlly devoted warrior race...or its just my misconception?

[Basileus]

I think they are a myth, but i guess someone with deeper knowledge can tell us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[solypsist]

moved to Monastery

[Belisarius]

Jomsborg was a Viking fortification on the Island of Wollin, it´s inhabitants , the Jomsvikings, was cast out from their fammilies due to violent crimes. They were also devouted Otin worshippers and sacrifeced to him. They were considered the boldest and most fearsome of all Vikings.

[Hulegu]

They are the subject of one of the sagas, but there is some truth behind it. I don't have easy access to reference material on this - maybe someone else has? Meanwhile a quick internet search threw up this site:
http://www.jomsvikings.com/index2.html
which may be helpful.

[Sigurd]

I have some stuff about the Jomsvikings and their final fate... but I'll have to go do this from home (I am at uni)

[Hakonarson]

There's no concrete evidence they ever existed, although it's possible that it jsut hasn't been found yet.

[Captain Fishpants]

Once JomsVikings had been suggested as a unit type by Graeme Davis (who wrote most of the text and has a couple of roleplaying sourcebooks on Vikings among his credits) we thought they were interesting, even though the historical basis for them was not 100% solid.

In this case - as with, say, the Sherwood Foresters - the appeal of a bit of good gameplay for a game outweighed the historical factor. So in went the JomsVikings.

MikeB ~ CA

[Papewaio]

Aye glad to hear that Captain

I guess as violent worshippers we are looking at valhalla seeking lunatics.

[Hakonarson]

Ah...yah....Sherwood foresters......lol - is there a limit of only 1 unit of them in existance at a time, with the leader of course being Robin of Locksley, and considerable hand-to-hand bonuses fromall those quarter staffs?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Nowake]

Lol indeed, the poor de Locksley must of resurected himself 500 years before his birth, maybe in order to defend a great-grandmother of Marry Anne from a wiking rapist http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Sigurd]

Hello again, as I promised I have a few things about the Jomsvikings.
It is excerpts from ancient texts some of which is written by Snorre Sturlason.

You have to bear with me, this is written in Nynorsk and some of it is old (My second written language) and I was never good at it.
However, I thought it was prudent to post the original version of the text first.

SLAGET

Drusteleg drog dei i leidang,
Danehæren til møtes,
hav-skip; langs med landet lenge
siglt dei hadde.

Mange langskip ved møtet
på Møre jarlen rudde
under vikingom; vidt dreiv skrova
med varme lik-haugar lagde.

Dramatiske tilstandar, levande skildra i Eiriksdropa til minne om det vidgjetne slaget mellom den frykta jomsvikinghæren og leidangshæren til Håkon jarl i år 986.
I realiteten det fyrste nasjonale slaget om Noreg.
Danskekongen Svein rådde på den tid over store deler av Sverige og Noreg.
Men kongens jarl i Noreg, Håkon jarl, viste liten vilje til å krevje skatt for danskekongen og levde eit fritt og heidensk liv i heimlandet sitt.
Dette fall sjalvsagt kongen tungt for brystet, men han hadde ein plan….
Til arvedrykkja etter far sin og hovdingane Strut-Harald i Skåne og Vesete på Bornholm, far til Bue digre og Sigurd, sende kongen bod til jomsvikingane, Sigvalde jarl, Bue Dige og brørne deira.
Dei kom med sine gjævaste menn, og under minneskåla lurte danskekongen Sigvalde jarl til å love høgt og dyrt av før tre vintrar var lidne skulle han vere komen til Noreg og drepe Håkon jarl, eller jage han ut or landet.
Denne lovnaden tykte dei andre Jomsvikingane vel om, og det heile enda med at den veldige Jomsvikinghæren tok seg nordetter norskekysten alt same vinteren.
Dei plyndra og drap alt dei kom over på vegen og ryktet gjekk snart i vegen føre.
Ein mann kom seg til Håkon jarl og fekk berette kva som hende.
Jarlen let då sjera hær-pil i heile Trøndelag, Nordmøre, Sunnmøre og Romsdal, Namdalen og Hålogaland.

Slik skildrar Snorre korleis hærane traff kvarandre:
"Jomsvikinghæren seilte flåten nord om Stad og la fyrst til ved Herøy.
Folk i land sa aldri sanninga om kva jarlane hadde fore når vikingane fekk tak i nokon å spørje.
Vikingane herja kvar dei kom og la til utanfor Hod (Hareidsøya).
Der sprang dei opp og herja, drog ned til båtane både folk og fe og drepte alle karfolk som kunne bere våpen.
Ein bonde sa: Dere bærer dere ikke at som hærmenn, driver kuer og kalver til stranda; det var større jakt for dere å ta den bjørnen, som nå er komen like ved bjørnebåsen.
Kan du sei oss noko om Håkon jarl? spurte dei.
Bonden svarte at han var seilt inn i Hjørundfjorden i går, jarlen hadde bare ett eller to skip, i alle fall ikke flere en tre, og han visste ikkje noko om dere.
Da tok Bue og hans flokk på sprang til båtane og slapp alt byttet.
Håkon jarl og Eirik jarl, sann hans, låg i Hallkjellsvika, der heile hæren hadde kome saman, dei hadde halvanna hundre skip (180) og hadde fått greie på at Jomsvikinghæren låg på utsida av Hod.
No rodde jarlen nordover for å finne dei, og da dei kom der det heiter Hjørungavåg møttest dei".
***

The Battle


Splendidly they went as (militia*).
The Danish army they met,
Ocean ships; along the cost long
they had sailed.

Many Long-ships to the meeting place
at Møre (place) the jarl rowed
under (Viking rage**); wide drove hulls***
warm corpse-hills was made

*
leidang – militia: conscripts from the costal areas; an old costal defense law, where the
costal districts had to provide boats, provision and men.

**
vikingom – no translation available… but one is lead to think it has something to do with their mood or attitude.

***
skrova – head and limbless bodies, open corpses. Can also mean hull of a ship…

Dramatic conditions, lively described in the Eirksdropa (poem) in remembrance of the famous battle between the feared Jomsviking army and Håkon Jarl’s leidgang(militia) army in the year of 986 AD.
In reality the first national battle of Norway.

The Danish King ruled in that time large areas of Sweden and Norway.
But the King's Jarl in Norway, Håkon Jarl would not tax to the Danish king and lived a free and heathen (non Christian) life in his homeland.
This was a burden on the kings heart, but he had a plan.

For the (legacy drinking party?) after his father and the chiefs; Strut-Harald of Skåne and Vesente Borholm (Swedish places), the father of Bue Digre (Bue the Big) and Sigurd, the king sent invitations to the Jomsvikings, Sigvalde Jarl, Bue Digre and their brothers.
They came with their bravest men.
During the memory toast the Danish king tricked Sigvalde Jarl to promise with an oath that within three winters, he would go to Norway and kill Håkon Jarl or at least make him flee the country.
The other Jomsvikings agreed to this oath, and in fact, the entire Jomsviking army went north the same winter.

They plundered and killed all over as they went north and soon the rumor of them went before them.
A man went to Håkon Jarl and told him of what was happening.
The Jarl then conscripted men to his army from all over Trøndelag , Nordmøre, Sunnmøre and Romsdal, Namdalen and Hålogaland (places).

Thus describes Snorre the meeting of the two armies:

The Jomsviking army sailed their fleet northward and stopped first by Herøy.
The people ashore never told the truth of what the Jarl was up to, when the Vikings asked them.
The Vikings ravaged wherever they went and put in outside Hod (Hareidsøya).
There they charged up, ravaged, and dragged down to the boats both people and animals, but killed all arms able men.
One farmer said: You do not act like army men, dragging cows and calves to the beach; a better prey would be that bear that have arrived by bjørneåsen (bear hill).
Can you tell us something about Håkon Jarl?, they asked him.
The Farmer answered that he had sailed in to the Hjørundfjorden yesterday, the Jarl had only one or two ships, at least not more than three, and he did not know of you.
Then Bue took and his flock and run to the boats and left all the loot.

Håkon Jarl and his son Eirik Jarl lay in Hallkjellsvika, where the entire army had gathered.
They had hallvanna??(180) hundred ships and they had received the news that the Jomsviking army lay outside Hod. Now the Jarl rowed north to find them, and when they arrived at the place called Hjørungavåg they met.

from another story:

The two armies met at Hjørungavåg, resulting in a bloody battle, with great loss of life on both sides. For some time it seemed as if the Vikings of Jom were going to win, but then Jarl Håkon sacrificed his youngest son Erling to the gods. This brought him victory and he won the battle.


English version of Heimskringla (Snorre Sturlason) and a more detailed story:

Olaf Tryggvason saga: Part 1 (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/trygvason1.html) pay particular attention to chapters 38 - 43
Olaf Tryggvason saga: Part 2 (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/trygvason2.html) chapters 44 - 47




Where is Jomsborg?
some of the texts mention an island east of Denmark. others mentions an island in Østersjøen (Baltic ocean)

This is a picture I found and it is hard to tell if it shows an island or a place on shore of north germany:

http://lind.no/kark/img/europa.gif

[Sigurd]

Possible location of the city Jomsborg part II:

Some of the sources I have recently dug up,indicates the island of Wolin at the top left corner of Poland as the location of Jomsborg,the home town of the Joms Vikings.
The island seems to be divided between Germany and Poland.
On one of the maps the city Swinoujsie lays on the Wolin island: Map of Poland (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/poland_rel00.jpg)

Here you can see the location of Wolin national park: Another map of poland (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/nytmaps.pl?poland)

"During Viking age, Wolin was one of the most important trade centers of the Baltic Sea.
The town is considered to be one of the earliest in the area, inhabited by numerous Scandinavian Vikings, mainly occupied with trade".
source: info on Wolin (http://www.ellennet.com/english/wollin.htm)

"Sporene efter beboelse på den nuværende bys område rækker tilbage til yngre stenalder.
I det 9.årh. opstod en slavisk bebyggelse, kaldet Jumne, Wineta eller Jomsborg".

"The indication of populated areas around the city goes back to the younger stone age.
During the 9th century a Slavic settlement settled down in the place called Jumne, Wineta or Jomsborg".
source: Wolin - danish... (http://www.spangshus.dk/turist/wolin.htm#wolinby)

"Rett sør for Swinoujscje ligger byen
Wolin på stedet der vikingtidens Jomsborg lå, og der det
holdes en vikingfestival hver sommer."

“South of Swinoujscje lays the city
of Wolin on the spot where the Viking age city of Jomsborg lay,
every summer it holds a Viking festival.”
source: Aftenposten - norwegian (http://www.at-rejse-er-at-leve.dk/aftenpost/pommern.htm)

[Hakonarson]

What's really required to prove their existance in the first place is discovery of hte huge enclosed harbour they weer supposed to have - ideally the gates that shut it off or their supporting structures

Personally I think they're a myth - that they were such an elite but only fought in 1 battle and left no traces is just inherently unlikey.

[Shahed]

Thanks for that info Sigurd. Very interesting.

*starts reading over*

[Shahed]

That's a great post.
Sources & links, essential for any discussion---> very nice.

[Pellinor]

If I remember my sagas correctly (which I probably don't) the Jomsvikings were a band of louts who lived on an island off the coast of Norway. They generally made a nuisance of themselves, what with looting and pirating all over the place, and being rather good at it.

In the end the King (I forget which) decided to put an end to it, so he got a force together and captured them. He got them all, bound, in front of him in their hall and sentenced them to be beheaded, on by one. Being manly men, each went to his death standing proud and tall - until the axe made him a little shorter, of course.

After a few had been beheaded the youngest, a tall chap with lovely long blond hair (let's call him Eric, for convenience), asked if he could go next. "Fine", says the king, so Eric stepped up to the block.

"Before I die, can I crave a boon?" asked Eric. "It would be a shame to get blood all over my lovely long blond hair: could you get one of your people to hold it out of the way of the axe for me?"

The king laughed and agreed; one of his guards (Lief the Lucky) stepped up, wrapped the young chap's hair around his wrists and heaved, so Eric's head was on the block but his hair was well clear.

Down came the axe on Eric's bare neck - but just before it hit, he pulled back from the block. The axe kept going down, but now the guard's wrists, tangled up in the hair, were under it.

Eric stood up and ran his hands through his hair (to dislodge Lief's). The king was so impressed with his bravery that he offered to spare his life (he needed a new bodyguard, after all).

"Only if you spare the lives of my comrades too" declared Eric, striking a noble pose in a convenient patch of sunlight.

"Fine" said the king, "having a few dozen more pirates around is a small price to pay for such an entertaining evening - beats chess, any day. Do stop whimpering, Lief."


As I say, it may not have been Jomsvikings - but it's an interesting story.

Pell.R.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I think those were swedish prisoners, not Jomsvikings, but I'm not sure.

[Longasc]

May be that they were fierce and brave warriors.

Look at the Samurai and Ninjas and so on - they built a reputation over the course of time. How often are things greater in hindsight or how often were brave deeds multiplied and exaggerated?

Just look at Alexander the Great - many of his victories were so great because he fought an enemy that had many shortcomings. Think how the Iraqi peopled feared Saddam.

That reputation thing transformed in Medieval into superior stats and fighting skill. So that they can live up to their legend. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Sigurd]

Quote[/b] (Pellinor @ June 03 2003,20:52)]If I remember my sagas correctly (which I probably don't) the Jomsvikings were a band of louts who lived on an island off the coast of Norway. They generally made a nuisance of themselves, what with looting and pirating all over the place, and being rather good at it.

In the end the King (I forget which) decided to put an end to it, so he got a force together and captured them. He got them all, bound, in front of him in their hall and sentenced them to be beheaded, on by one. Being manly men, each went to his death standing proud and tall - until the axe made him a little shorter, of course.

After a few had been beheaded the youngest, a tall chap with lovely long blond hair (let's call him Eric, for convenience), asked if he could go next. "Fine", says the king, so Eric stepped up to the block.

"Before I die, can I crave a boon?" asked Eric. "It would be a shame to get blood all over my lovely long blond hair: could you get one of your people to hold it out of the way of the axe for me?"

The king laughed and agreed; one of his guards (Lief the Lucky) stepped up, wrapped the young chap's hair around his wrists and heaved, so Eric's head was on the block but his hair was well clear.

Down came the axe on Eric's bare neck - but just before it hit, he pulled back from the block. The axe kept going down, but now the guard's wrists, tangled up in the hair, were under it.

Eric stood up and ran his hands through his hair (to dislodge Lief's). The king was so impressed with his bravery that he offered to spare his life (he needed a new bodyguard, after all).

"Only if you spare the lives of my comrades too" declared Eric, striking a noble pose in a convenient patch of sunlight.

"Fine" said the king, "having a few dozen more pirates around is a small price to pay for such an entertaining evening - beats chess, any day. Do stop whimpering, Lief."


As I say, it may not have been Jomsvikings - but it's an interesting story.

Pell.R.
Hi, there Pellinor, you just quoted (with small editions) the 46th chapter of Olaf Trygvason’s saga…
indeed he was a Jomsviking, and his name was as mine Sigurd.
It was the Dane King who finally took the sword to Jomsborg and finished of their plundering... So much for the big gates or heavy fortifications. I thing those are just wandering tales.

Here is the extract from the saga…

46. VIKINGS BOUND TOGETHER IN ONE CHAIN.

Earl Eirik then laid himself alongside of Vagn's ship, and there
was a brave defence; but at last this ship too was cleared, and
Vagn and thirty men were taken prisoners, and bound, and brought
to land. Then came up Thorkel Leira, and said, "Thou madest a
solemn vow, Vagn, to kill me, but now it seems more likely that I
will kill thee." Vagn and his men sat all upon a log of wood
together. Thorkel had an axe in his hands, with which he cut
at him who sat outmost on the log. Vagn and the other prisoners
were bound so that a rope was fastened on their feet, but they
had their hands free. One of them said, "I will stick this
cloak-pin that I have in my hand into the earth, if it be so that
I know anything, after my head is cut off." His head was cut
off, but the cloak-pin fell from his hand. There sat also a very
handsome man with long hair, who twisted his hair over his head,
put out his neck, and said, "Don't make my hair bloody." A man
took the hair in his hands and held it fast. Thorkel hewed with
his axe; but the viking twitched his head so strongly that he who
was holding his hair fell forwards, and the axe cut off both his
hands, and stuck fast in the earth. Then Earl Eirik came up, and
asked, "Who is that handsome man?"

He replies, "I am called Sigurd, and am Bue's son. But are all
the Jomsborg vikings dead?"

Eirik says, "Thou art certainly Boe's son. Wilt thou now take
life and peace?"

"That depends," says he, "upon who it is that offers it."

"He offers who has the power to do it -- Earl Eirik."

"That will I," says he, "from his hands." And now the rope was
loosened from him.

Then said Thorkel Leira, "Although thou should give all these men
life and peace, earl, Vagn Akason shall never come from this with
life." And he ran at him with uplifted axe; but the viking
Skarde swung himself in the rope, and let himself fall just
before Thorkel's feet, so that Thorkel œell over him, and Vagn
caught the axe and gave Thorkel a death-wound. Then said the
earl, "Vagn, wilt thou accept life?"

"That I will," says he, "if you give it to all of us."

"Loose them from the rope," said the earl, and it was done.
Eighteen were killed, and twelve got their lives.

[Pellinor]

That's him, officer, that's the man

Pell.R.

[Odinn]

[EDITED] *never mind, Sigurd had already written it*

[Vanya]

GAH

Rubbish All of it Vanya will once again clarify what is true and what is merely the fancies of self-interested peddlers of folklore.

Jomsburg did actually exist. The island was originally a small ring of tiny islands with a lagoon in the middle.

In the early Dark ages, there was a viking steppe people that lived north of what is now Helsinki that endured a string of bitter winters and needed to find a new place to live. In rode Vanya, and sold them the string of islands off the coast of modern Poland. The people were delighted and swiftly relocated to their new home. What made it all the more appealing was the lagoon itself: the islands acted like a fortress and could protect their fleet of ships harbored in the lagoon quite easily. The people called this new place "home". Mainland peoples referred to the place as "Jomsburg" because it sounded like "home burg" or "home town".

The battles alluded to herein are quite exaggerated on many accounts. The whole raid thing was quite overblown. The reality was that the "raid" vs Hakor (or whatever) was in reality a pilgrimage by a family to visit relatives that lived in the servants quarters of the king's manor. When they arrived, they danced and sang and ate and generally had a good time. But, one fateful day, one of the children ate a bad berry and puked all over the lord, who was quite visibly displeased. To an onlooker from a distance, this would have looked like trouble. And it is indeed how the whole rumor-mill got started.

A long time later, the settlement turned to piracy, and fleeced baltic shipping. Lacking any real caves to hide their booty in, they dumped it into the shallow lagoon, confident nobody would look there. They grabbed so much booty over the years, that they actually filled in the lagoon with treasure This was in fact the historical case that inspired the whole "treasure island" series of stories and movies (pirates of the carribean were inspired by the Joms in this sense, so the idea was not theirs anyway). Eventually, the piracy took its toll, and the people died out, with the survivors moving on to other lands to pursue better jobs and living conditions. The treasure was buried by vegetation and growth, and has all been forgotten.

Vanya has abstained from mentioning this in the past to prevent an outbreak of gold fever in the baltic states. But, nowadays, Vanya could use a laugh or two... without resorting to "reality programming"... hence the disclosure.

Have fun And if you find anything, Vanya expects His usual 90% finder's fee.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

GAH

[Sigurd]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Sigurd]

Ok, people this is it → the Saga of the Jomsvikings (http://www.snerpa.is/net/forn/jomsvik.htm)...
One problem though, it is in Icelandic. I you want it in English you will have to buy it. Damn copyrights…http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif owned by Lee M. Hollander (translator).
Enjoy it (if you can)… http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif