Battle of the Faiths.

[The_Emperor]

Right then
What type of religious faction do you prefer to be In MTW?

Would you rather be a Crusader, or Fighting a Jihad?
Or would you rather be Orthadox and just be a Victim of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Cast your vote

[Matt Deckard]

(this post has been edited because i think many people wont see it in the humourous way that i did)

[MonkeyMan]

Has to catholic, never liked missile units that much. Nice slow heavy infantry suppored by knights for me. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Shaitan]

Voted for catholic because of the knights. Nothing is more satisfying then ride down some poorly armoured foot troops with my good old knights.

[Shahed]

Islamic just to give myself a challenge.
Catholic when I'm feeling lazy.
Orthodox Barneys for when i just wanna rush.
Orthodox Russians for those fearsome boyars & steppe cavalry.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Shahed]

Errr where's Pagan ? You can alos play Mongols and soon VIKINGS

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ May 07 2003,08:00)]Errr where's Pagan ? You can alos play Mongols and soon VIKINGS
Mongols? they are only playable on the historical campaigns so i left them out.

I just chose the main playable religions from the Original MTW, (sadly VI isn't out here yet, so I can't comment on that).

[Shahed]

Ah I see.

You can play Mongols as well, just have to use the All20 mod. Then you can play em online or SP Campaign.

[HopAlongBunny]

Islam

I find they are just more fun to play. Catholic factions make me feel like I'm watching paint dry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Orthodox for the Boyars of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dogmeat]

gotta be catholic. I just love my crusades http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Granted the popes annoying, but hes easily disposed off with a good assassin.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

KNIGHTS Give me knights, good sir, and nothing else

[Matt Deckard]

I heard you were special friends with all your knights Rob. is this true?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Heraclius]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Demon of Light]

Quote[/b] (Samurai-ninja_fusion_of_doom @ May 07 2003,12:10)]I heard you were special friends with all your knights Rob. is this true?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
None of that now... You two can argue the nature of BigKingSanctaphrax's relationship with the knights at your school. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif Besides, it only applies to the squires and only then if Perversion is a V&V. Have to get those boys from someplace

[Suppiluliumas]

I thought that was the true purpose of peasants.

[lookbeyond23]

I'd go with Islamic. Just because I can take less consideration into 'Cripes, is the Pope gonna get fiesty on my ass' and more on 'Should I whip the Byzantines or Egyptians first?' (I like the Turks quite a bit)

Thats the only reason. Otherwise, being Catholic is fun just to launch a crusade.

[Cazbol]

The orthodox for me, simply because they're the least religious. Being an atheist myself it's good to be free of all that holy stuff.

The orthodox seem to rule their states for real and earthly purposes, rather than to promote their tribal god image.

[ShadesWolf]

Most tiem I play as Byzantium, thus im Orthodox

[Sir Black Raven]

Normally i play Catholic but when i feel in the mood for rushing times i choose islamic (turks ) and orthodox (russian ). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Ryttare]

Byz is ortodox 2 blacky =)

I prefer catholics, cuz it relates more to me

[SmokWawelski]

Religion does not matter: I could play the people of glorious sun as long as they would have the knights http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Dr_No]

Islam- much easier, much more fun and no pope to tell you if you can or not

[Lord Godfrey]

Need to update the poll - I am looking forward to being the pagan vikings

[shadowstrife911]

Quote[/b] ]The orthodox for me, simply because they're the least religious. Being an atheist myself it's good to be free of all that holy stuff.

The orthodox seem to rule their states for real and earthly purposes, rather than to promote their tribal god image.

Actually, the Byzantine Empire's (Orthodox Christian) art is known worldwide for its idolotry of Jesus Christ. I did an art project on the empire, and they promoted their 'tribal god' image all the time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Guthwyn]

Someone here is sure to know more about this than I, but weren't the Byzantines responsible for the Iconoclasts? This was a period in Christian art (in Byzantium) that forbade the depiction of Christ or the Virgin Mary in anything other than very iconic and standardized poses? If I'm not mistaken, they didn't treat other works of art very well during this time period (smashy-smashy )

But, back on topic, I'm torn between the Turks (for their elites), and the heavy Christian knights. Sure, by the time I get Lancers with full armor and weapons upgrades, the game is already decided. But running down those peasants with the best cavalry available...man, that's sweet. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Guthwyn

[RisingSun]

Me loves me (Still underpowered) longbows And of course my Knights Templar

[Divine Wind]

I went for orthodox too. Simply because i hate crusades an jihads http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

I go for Islam since they are challenging,but most of the time i play the brits,just to reinact the 100 years war http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[RisingSun]

Yeah, except for me, it sure as hell didnt last 100 years lol Silly French knights... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[GoldenKnightX2]

for me its more like the 10 year wars



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Dimeola]

Mercenaries have no religion.....$

Dimeolas

[ichi]

Shinto (from STW) first, but Orthodox otherwise.

ichi

[Leet Eriksson]

Quote[/b] (GoldenKnightX2 @ May 09 2003,10:01)]for me its more like the 10 year wars



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
argh you took my line http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ May 10 2003,17:11)]
Quote[/b] (GoldenKnightX2 @ May 09 2003,10:01)]for me its more like the 10 year wars



http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
argh you took my line http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
10 year wars, doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

Anyway on a good day mine was more like the 5 year war http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[FesterShinetop]

Catholic mostly, but when I don't want to be bothered by the pope I choose Islamic.

[Losfalos]

Can we play the heretics?

Accccctually, maybe the pagans are in Britain?
The druidic faction
and there should be a Shaolin faction too - kill with one finger etc

But overall i think the mongol hordes sound the best to play. Technically speaking, is it true the Golden Horde mounted archers are unbeatable in battle?

I dont have VI or the mod to play the hordes so im just chatting.

[MalibuMan]

Catholic, for the silliest reason ever

I prefer the music, on the strategic map and in battles

[Doug-Thompson]

Islam. I don't like being nagged, even by a Pope.

[The_678]

Catholics for the heavy knights and Crusades

[econ21]

Catholic for me - primarily because they seem to have more interesting GA (crusades&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif; plus dealing with the Pope adds a welcome element of diplomacy/restraint, maddening though he can be.

I did enjoy being Almohad and Turk in the PBM here at the org, though - playing with a different mix of units.

The Byzantines have great units, but maybe are a little too easy in early, my preferred period.

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 07 2003,09:06)]Or would you rather be Orthadox and just be a Victim of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Orthodox
byzantium victim? lol too sad that it didnt fell from catholics... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

Katolikos all the way baby http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

(btw where did this old post get rooted up from anyhoo?}

[Cebei]

Islam, why go for anything less while you got the most powerful of the time? http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/otn/laughing/icon_smile_lachuh.gif http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/otn/laughing/icon_smile_lachuh.gif http://smilies.networkessence.net/s/otn/laughing/icon_smile_lachuh.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Paxx @ Nov. 07 2003,08:37)]
Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 07 2003,09:06)]Or would you rather be Orthadox and just be a Victim of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Orthodox
byzantium victim? lol too sad that it didnt fell from catholics... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Fourth crusade sack Constantinople? That sounds like being a victim to me

[hellenes]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Nov. 07 2003,18:25)]
Quote[/b] (Paxx @ Nov. 07 2003,08:37)]
Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 07 2003,09:06)]Or would you rather be Orthadox and just be a Victim of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Orthodox
byzantium victim? lol too sad that it didnt fell from catholics... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Fourth crusade sack Constantinople? That sounds like being a victim to me
It was more a victim of itself...:
1071 Byzantine army was defeated in a decisive battle by Seljuk(not Ottoman) Turks at Manzikert in Armenia; the Empire never recovered. Loss due to the fact that the armies were composed largely of mercenaries, and the plots of Michael Psellus with the Ducas family; the Armenian soldiers, as a result of religious animosities, deserted en masse on the field of battle, the premeditated desertion of general Andronicus Ducas, nephew of Constantine X Ducas and a leading personality in the bureaucratic faction.
1071 to 1078 Reign of Michael VII Ducas, son of Romanus IV; Andronicus returned to Constantinople, declared the defeat of the army at Manzikert and the bureaucratic faction supported the accession of Michael VII; meanwhile the Turks captured and released Emperor Romanus IV; with two rival emperors, the Empire was plunged into civil war just when Turkish tribes were entering the Empire unopposed. During the next ten years the factions bid against each other for the services of the Turkmen chieftains, handing many towns over to Turkish garrisons and ensuring the success of the Turkish occupation. The Turks subsequently overran Asia Minor; they were pastoral and not agricultural people; cultivation ceased, roads and aqueducts fell into ruin, Asia Minor declined rapidly into a desert and robbed the Empire of its main recruiting ground and granary. Michael VII was forced to abdicate throne in favor of a soldier, Nicephorus III Botaniates

the link is http://www.filetron.com/grkmanual/detailgr...reekchrono.html

the comments yours...

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Fourth crusade sack Constantinople? That sounds like being a victim to me

Lets make that EVERY crusader that went through Constantinople, pillaged it. 4th crusade was the saddest one (Hagia Sophia was converted into a tavern by the pious crusaders http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif )..


Quote[/b] ]1071 Byzantine army was defeated in a decisive battle by Seljuk(not Ottoman) Turks at Manzikert in Armenia;

They were not Seljuk yet. They were a Turcoman horde who were indifferent between attacking Persians or Byzantians. They cose Byzantians as they seemed more vulnerable. Oh, and Manzikert is in Turkey. http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/ed/RedTeamEnforcer.gif

[hellenes]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Nov. 07 2003,19:05)]
Quote[/b] ]Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Fourth crusade sack Constantinople? That sounds like being a victim to me

Lets make that EVERY crusader that went through Constantinople, pillaged it. 4th crusade was the saddest one (Hagia Sophia was converted into a tavern by the pious crusaders http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif )..


Quote[/b] ]1071 Byzantine army was defeated in a decisive battle by Seljuk(not Ottoman) Turks at Manzikert in Armenia;

They were not Seljuk yet. They were a Turcoman horde who were indifferent between attacking Persians or Byzantians. They cose Byzantians as they seemed more vulnerable. Oh, and Manzikert is in Turkey. http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/ed/RedTeamEnforcer.gif
Histrically speaking Manzikert is in Armenia cause now turkey occupies many lands that werent turkish but are now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ...

Hellenes

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Histrically speaking Manzikert is in Armenia cause now turkey occupies many lands that werent turkish but are now ...


http://www.stupid-boy.com/smilies/otn/laughing/yelrotflmao.gif We got some revisionist historians in the forum.

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (hellenes @ Nov. 07 2003,15:17)]
Please do not say smthing just to say it, its very sad not knowing exactly history...and talking about it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Also its very sad calling victim a country that gave you culture, opened your eyes and wealthened your language...
Also its even more sad talking about a half persian tribe that trying to say history the way they want to be....

[Cebei]

Easy Paxx, nobody is saying anything bad to Greece or Byzantium. We call it a victim, because of the wrongdoing of the crusaders. And calling ME who doesnt know history......hmmm that I can attribute to your recent entry into the forum. Look at some old posts if you want. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Also its even more sad talking about a half persian tribe that trying to say history the way they want to be....

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif You are not talking about Turks are u? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Half-persian? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Woohooo

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Nov. 08 2003,07:19)]Easy Paxx, nobody is saying anything bad to Greece or Byzantium. We call it a victim, because of the wrongdoing of the crusaders. And calling ME who doesnt know history......hmmm that I can attribute to your recent entry into the forum. Look at some old posts if you want. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
You know it the way you want to know it, that is what i've said and no i am not going to search your old posts.
The wrongdoing of the crusaders i see is something that makes you proud and calling victim my country offends my sense of patriotism a sense that seems you dont have.

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]The wrongdoing of the crusaders i see is something that makes you proud and calling victim my country offends my sense of patriotism a sense that seems you dont have.

Well, it is good to be a patriot and actually I am just proud to see anyone who has strong ties with his/her country; I dont see any reason to be offended.

As for crusaders; their sack of Constantinople is regarded as a bad thing by everyone and I frequently use this example to illustrate my view on the aim of the crusades. I am NOT proud by it, I am sorry because of that.

You were true by saying Turks were influenced by Byzantian culture, and seeing the pillaging of such a culture can not make anyone proud; especially Turks..

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Nov. 08 2003,07:43)]Well, it is good to be a patriot and actually I am just proud to see anyone who has strong ties with his/her country; I dont see any reason to be offended.

As for crusaders; their sack of Constantinople is regarded as a bad thing by everyone and I frequently use this example to illustrate my view on the aim of the crusades. I am NOT proud by it, I am sorry because of that.

You were true by saying Turks were influenced by Byzantian culture, and seeing the pillaging of such a culture can not make anyone proud; especially Turks..
I was offended when I saw the word victim. I've tried to see the humorus side of it(if there is any)saying that at least Byz fell from a serious enemy. And then some guy sais Hagia Sophia (a serious symbol of Orthodox faith) was turned into a tavern LAUGHING at time of discussion that only could show his proudness of it.
Correct me if i am wrong and let me remind you

Quote (Cebei @ Nov. 07 2003,19:05)
Quote
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Fourth crusade sack Constantinople? That sounds like being a victim to me


Lets make that EVERY crusader that went through Constantinople, pillaged it. 4th crusade was the saddest one (Hagia Sophia was converted into a tavern by the pious crusaders )..

Quote
1071 Byzantine army was defeated in a decisive battle by Seljuk(not Ottoman) Turks at Manzikert in Armenia;


They were not Seljuk yet. They were a Turcoman horde who were indifferent between attacking Persians or Byzantians. They cose Byzantians as they seemed more vulnerable. Oh, and Manzikert is in Turkey.

And at the end you say the opposite of what you have said.

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Nov. 07 2003,15:05)]
Quote[/b] ]Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Fourth crusade sack Constantinople? That sounds like being a victim to me

Lets make that EVERY crusader that went through Constantinople, pillaged it. 4th crusade was the saddest one (Hagia Sophia was converted into a tavern by the pious crusaders http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif )..


Quote[/b] ]1071 Byzantine army was defeated in a decisive battle by Seljuk(not Ottoman) Turks at Manzikert in Armenia;

They were not Seljuk yet. They were a Turcoman horde who were indifferent between attacking Persians or Byzantians. They cose Byzantians as they seemed more vulnerable. Oh, and Manzikert is in Turkey. http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/ed/RedTeamEnforcer.gif
this is it

[Cebei]

Hmmm.. Let me explain.

1-The laugh emoticon refers to the crusaders, not Hagia Sophia. It is sadly true that the 4th crusaders turned the great church into a tavern. Now this is totally unacceptable and shows the disrespect of crusaders towards Orthodoxy. What I laughed was that crusades were religious wars and the sack of Hagia Sophia shows the lack of religious purity of the 4th crusaders. We had this discussion before. I put the emoticon to recall that discussion. Again, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif icon refers to crusaders, not Byzantium.

2-I really couldnt understand how you could misunderstood that. I said Turcomans were a horde. They were immigrating from central asia (a breakaway family of the Huns) and when they reached Anatolia, there were two major powers Persians and Greeks. They decided to attack Greeks as Persians were way too powerful. How can that make Turcomans Persian? I doubt that line is this much dubious.

Anyway, do not misunderstand things. I am not in anyway against Greek culture and civilisation. I admire Greek cultural achievements and know the improvement they made on world culture and know that Turks were also influenced by them.

So there is no problem at all.

[Fragony]

Muslim army's all the way. Their roster is so much richer, the battles are so much more interesting. I absolutely love the egyptians, such a nice balanced army. It may lack a heavy infantry unit, but you get nizari and mamluk cav damnit.

[The_Emperor]

Paxx
We are not Bashing Byzantium. (In Fact the Byzantines are one of my fave factions to play as in MTW, right behind England)

In History Byzantium was on more than one occasion on the wrong end of a Jihad or Crusade, however for their empire to last as long as they did is no small achievement.

What I was referring to in the beginning post, was that Orthodox factions do not have their own Holy War option in MTW and were very often targets of Catholic and Islamic Holy War actions...

Let me just explain that I originally started this poll because each faction in MTW can be seperated into these three categories, (this was pre-VI so Pagan was not included and the Mongols were unplayable).

I was attempting to see what style of faction people prefer to play as.

[kataphraktoi]

Here comes the cavalry, here comes Kataphraktoi and his slow slow cavalry with only a bow to save them from annoying mosquitoes called horse archers.

How can Paxx claiming Manzikert (modern day Malazgirt) be revisionist???

For a long time the area of Manzikert (Vaspurakan) has been Armenian rather than Turkish. While politically it is Turkish, it is Armenian territory just as Israel's occupation of the Golan Heights is on Syrian territory.
In fact we need not look far than non-existent Kurdistan, we all know that part of Turkey's territory is Kurdish rather than Turkish.

You have to remember, modern day political boundaries don't match the reality on the ground, or the facts on the ground. Because of this modern day states create the facts on the ground with some nasty methods. Just look at the Middle East for goodness sakes

- We need only look at the Armenian-Azerbijani conflict over Nagarno-Karobakh
- Lebanon
- the Armenian massacres in historical Armenian territory
- Bosnia

If anyone is a revisionist it is those who see modern-political boundaries as the be all end all.

[kataphraktoi]

Oops. I choose Orthodox.

As a percieved victim it means I get to be an underdog. just the odds I love. After all Byzantium was always facing overwhelming odds.

Onward Kataphraktoi and charge.....one trot at a time.

[Cebei]

Turkish-Armenian relations discussions are very outdated. Those discussions have been made over and over, on international arena. In all those discussions Turkish positions have always found more realistic.

This is not a forum I will discuss Turkish foreign relations or defend Turkey.

Sufficient information on that can be found anywhere you want. Just look at Armenian Ministry of Foreign Affairs's website and then look at Turkish MFA.

The interesting thing is that the article written on TMFA is not written by Turks, it is written by British historians among which my is professor Norman Stone, whose house was bombed by Armenian terrorist organization ASALA, for his support of Turkish position.

The so called Armenian massacre is another ended discussion. You are really knocking at the wrong door on that. Half of my ancestry was bashed by Armenians during that so called Armenian massacre, so there is no way you can know about the issue better than me.

The Van's belonging to Armenia can not be justified by any historical fact, in fact there was no discussion at all. Thats really news to me.

P.S.: Do you really know what revisionism means?

[kataphraktoi]

Quote[/b] ]Turkish-Armenian relations discussions are very outdated. Those discussions have been made over and over, on international arena. In all those discussions Turkish positions have always found more realistic.

What a convenient generalisation. The Turkish position realistic Too bad Armenia is too busy with itself to broach the matter not to mention its small size and being next to big big Turkey.


Quote[/b] ]This is not a forum I will discuss Turkish foreign relations or defend Turkey.

Agreed.


Quote[/b] ]Half of my ancestry was bashed by Armenians during that so called Armenian massacre, so there is no way you can know about the issue better than me.

What do you expect when Ottoman state policy hunted them down like dogs?? Expect them to lay down say welcome??
Just because you live in Turkey and have ancestors who were bashed that you know this better than me??? Being Turkish means you have a bias and particular one at that. Therefore, you are more than qualified to offer a partial Turkish position on this matter.


Quote[/b] ]The Van's belonging to Armenia can not be justified by any historical fact, in fact there was no discussion at all. Thats really news to me.

histoy is about selectivity, hear what you want to hear, read what you want to read. choose what you choose to believe. Historical fact is that the Van has for most of its history been Armenian. Yes it can be justified, but whether Turks accept that is a matter of nationalist motivation than objectivity.


Quote[/b] ]Do you really know what revisionism means?

Yes I do. Revisionism suggests the interpretation of history with a particular, or deliberate bias with a partisan interest involved. I have no vested interests in Armenia itself but I dislike modern revisionist attempts to have a convenient amnesic episode when it doesn't suit them.

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]What a convenient generalisation. The Turkish position realistic Too bad Armenia is too busy with itself to broach the matter not to mention its small size and being next to big big Turkey.


It is not a generalization it is a fact. Just see the records concerning the debate.

The majority of the noise is not produced by Armenians in Armenia, because Turkish foreign policy emphasizes good neighbourly relations with Armenia. The real trouble comes from Armenians who reside abroad in the US or UK. They produce totally absurd arguments and jeopardize their citizens' relations with Turkey. Besides Armenians enjoyed massive lobby advantage abroad. Still, Turkish position is accepted.


Quote[/b] ]What do you expect when Ottoman state policy hunted them down like dogs?? Expect them to lay down say welcome??

Oh, and Armenians were...what? Were sitting and all of a sudden Ottomans came and... killed them?

Ottoman government did not initiate a massacre. They issued migration of the rebellious Armenian citizens to southern Anatolia. What killed Armenians were the bad weather conditions, plague and fatigue (factors which lead to the death of Ottoman troops as well)

And besides my ancestors were killed before the Armenian migration. Armenians were causing mass murders and systematic genocide, to increase Armenian population percentage against other ethnicities, probably thinking about taking advantage of self-determination policy. Armenians were migrated from those provinces to halt their actions.


Quote[/b] ]Just because you live in Turkey and have ancestors who were bashed that you know this better than me??? Being Turkish means you have a bias and particular one at that. Therefore, you are more than qualified to offer a partial Turkish position on this matter.

I am probably the last person to support Turkish foreign policy. You should have known that by now, but I assume you never read my earlier posts.

The reason why I know the issue better than you may be that I heard the issue from first hand information and that because I am a historian.



Quote[/b] ]histoy is about selectivity, hear what you want to hear, read what you want to read. choose what you choose to believe.

Well no that is quite wrong thing to say to an academician. Irarely support Turkish positions.


Quote[/b] ]Historical fact is that the Van has for most of its history been Armenian. Yes it can be justified, but whether Turks accept that is a matter of nationalist motivation than objectivity.


You still havent told me what time of history you are referring to. Turkey have recognized Armenia and its borders, so there is little room for debate geographically in my opinion.


Quote[/b] ]Revisionism suggests the interpretation of history with a particular, or deliberate bias with a partisan interest involved.

You could have searched dictionary to find. Jeez, no Revisionism is far from biased historianism. It is a school of thought and a way of historical interpretation. Who told that to you?

[biguth dickuth]

A thing that someone should definitely have in mind when talking about historu is that, in fact, no matter how objective the historian tries to be and no matter how good his sources are, the historical text is a subjective(in some part) version of the facts. Who really knows exactly what has happened? Nobody really....

This is of, somewhat, general value. I am not speaking just for the armenian genocide....

And remember something: you can not always trust the historical information given to you by family ancestors who lived at the time because they were also subject to the propaganda of their time.
For instance, i remember things my grandpa has told me, which i later found to be incorrect...

[rasoforos]

Chill out guys , i dun think this is a place for a greco-turkish or a turks v the world discussion , we all have our oppinions but things like that are best left alone ...for the health of the forum overall http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

( yes...this means i have experiences were pretty good forums were torn to pieces by greek-turkish israel-arab P.L china- taiwan , puny earthlinks- Mighty Martians debates)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif /Me Buys everyone a drink ( from a choice of alcoholic and non-alcoholic bevarages) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Note : Edited to add missing letters...i knew i should expect more from a £6 keyboard

[biguth dickuth]

And something for Paxx:

Man you don't have to get so excited when someone refers to byzantium in a way that you think is not proper. Haven't you ever thought that the (eastern) roman empire has it's own great part in the history of crimes and betrayals? Eumathios Filokalis, a general of Manuel Komninos, used to throw the babies of captured turcomans into boiling water in order not allow a new generation of soldiers to brought up. This is too close to a genocide. I can think of it now and laugh with my friends about the cruelty of humans but it is not so funny after all, is it?

I believe that in that spirit you should speak with anyone who laughs about the hardships and humiliations which the eastern roman empire has underwent throughout its history. So you really don't need to get offended when talking about something that happened 799 years ago. You are romios and so am i but we don't live in the roman empire anymore.

And something else: loving the place where you live, it's culture and it's people is not bad at all as long as you keep an open mind and that love doesn't become pathological.
Too much patriotism is dangerous you know....

Now, about the armenian genocide, this is not so old and therefore a totaly diferrent matter...

[biguth dickuth]

Thanks for the drink rasoforos

Peace on earth and the forum..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[A.Saturnus]

revisionism
noun
1 [sometimes cap] a a moderate, nonrevolutionary version of Marxism developed in Germany around 1900
b (in Marxist-Leninist ideology) any dangerous departure from the true interpretation of Marx's teachings


2 the advocacy of revision of some political theory, religious doctrine, historical or critical interpretation, etc.

3 [usually cap] an ultra-nationalist form of Zionism that arose in Palestine in the 1940s
re'visionist noun, adjective

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Nov. 07 2003,14:25)]
Quote[/b] (Paxx @ Nov. 07 2003,08:37)]
Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 07 2003,09:06)]Or would you rather be Orthadox and just be a Victim of them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Orthodox
byzantium victim? lol too sad that it didnt fell from catholics... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Fourth crusade sack Constantinople? That sounds like being a victim to me
Any greek man with a high sense of patriotism read this phrase would be ofended, unless you mean that I have problem of understanding. I surely understood the purpose of your question of this topic, but wanted to highlight the word victim.
This was your 2nd post agreeing with the 1st after knowing hat this got me annoyed, because of what? because I said that at least Constantinopolis didtnt fell from catholics? Actually didn't, numerous crusaders weakened Byz defenses, advantage that made the Seltzuks winners.

Anyway I made my point. I didnt came here to start a war or discuss about black days of history and feel sorry that this topic went out of course.

Emperor I use to play with English frequently cause of their well known fierce, a historically proved well trained army even till today.

CebeiThe emoticon at the end of a sendence goes to the whole prase. Anyway very happy we got that cleared, I also admire turkish people (Ive been living for over 10 years in Komotitni a city of 40% musulmans, with no problems)wish I could say that for your goverment and army leaders, that always say and un-say.
I didnt misunderstand anything, wanted just to see my point of view, I never had hard feelings either or wanted to offend you.

[Paxx]

just to defend kataphraktoi

source: http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/tap/turkey/farmenia1895.htm

In the last decades of the nineteenth century, the Armenians' tendency toward Europeanization antagonized Turkish officials and encouraged their view that Armenians were a foreign, subversive element in the sultan's realm. By 1890 the rapid growth of the Kurdish population in Anatolia, combined with the immigration of Muslims from the Balkans and the Caucasus, had made the Armenian population of Anatolia an increasingly endangered minority. In 1895 Ottoman suspicion of the westernized Armenian population led to the massacre of 300,000 Armenians by special order of the Ottoman government.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the Russian border, Armenian churches and schools were closed and church property was confiscated in 1903. Tatars massacred Armenians in several towns and cities in 1905, and fifty-two Armenian nationalist leaders in Russia were tried en masse for underground activities in 1912.

source: http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/all/armenia/farmenia1915.htm

Armenian Genocide 1915-1917

State Entry Exit Combat Forces Population Losses
Armenians 1915 1922 25000 5000000 1000000
Turkey 1915 1922 450000 29000000 65000

In the early stages of World War I, in 1915 Russian armies advanced on Turkey from the north and the British attempted an invasion from the Mediterranean. Citing the threat of internal rebellion, the Ottoman government ordered large-scale roundups, deportations, and systematic torture and murder of Armenians beginning in the spring of 1915. Estimates vary from 600,000 to 2 million deaths out of the prewar population of about 3 million Armenians. By 1917 fewer than 200,000 Armenians remained in Turkey.

Whatever the exact dimensions of the genocide, Armenians suffered a demographic disaster that shifted the center of the Armenian population from the heartland of historical Armenia to the relatively safer eastern regions held by the Russians. Tens of thousands of refugees fled to the Caucasus with the retreating Russian armies, and the cities of Baku and Tbilisi filled with Armenians from Turkey. Ethnic tensions rose in Transcaucasia as the new immigrants added to the pressures on the limited resources of the collapsing Russian Empire

[TYR]

Greetings
I also prefer to play Byzantines.They were not victims of the crusaders.Do not forget that the leaders of the first crusade paid homage to Emperor Alexius I.The fall of Constantinople was inevitable due to various reasons.
My opinion of the catholics is too low to discuss it here in the forum and even lower about the muslims.Both of them have slaughtered a good many people in the name of their beliefs.I don't say that the Orthodox haven't done wrongs but in comparison with the others they are better.
You have talked about the Armenian massacre only.The turkish have tried to slaughter every other race inside their realm.Kurds,Armenians,GreekBut even now they don't admit it.
Anyway I am not going to analyze this much more.It is a discussion I wouldn't like to do it in here.

CONSTANTINOPLE IS THE CAPITOL OF GREECE

[rasoforos]

Quote[/b] (TYR @ Nov. 08 2003,16:32)]CONSTANTINOPLE IS THE CAPITOL OF GREECE
i feel like i wanna puke everytime i hear that...

What all the eastern european nations suffer from is unrealistic history books... especially in greece where the church is trying to convince us that 1) they supported the greek liberation struggle 2) we are Byzantines

FFS man , close the highschool history books and go and find out what was the PUNISHMENT for being a Greek in the Eastern Roman Empire ( surprse surprise theynever used 'Byzantine' , they were 'Romans&#39http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ,also find out when they started using 'greek' , when some Palaiologoi and some people like Georgios Gemistos started declaring that we were Greeks and not Romans or a confederacy of different nations ( that Byzantium was) the £$%$ had allready hit the fan.

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (biguth dickuth @ Nov. 08 2003,17:15)]And something for Paxx:

Man you don't have to get so excited when someone refers to byzantium in a way that you think is not proper. Haven't you ever thought that the (eastern) roman empire ha.s it's own great part in the history of crimes and betrayals? Eumathios Filokalis, a general of Manuel Komninos, used to throw the babies of captured turcomans into boiling water in order not allow a new generation of soldiers to brought up. This is too close to a genocide. I can think of it now and laugh with my friends about the cruelty of humans but it is not so funny after all, is it?

I believe that in that spirit you should speak with anyone who laughs about the hardships and humiliations which the eastern roman empire has underwent throughout its history. So you really don't need to get offended when talking about something that happened 799 years ago. You are romios and so am i but we don't live in the roman empire anymore.

And something else: loving the place where you live, it's culture and it's people is not bad at all as long as you keep an open mind and that love doesn't become pathological.
Too much patriotism is dangerous you know....

Now, about the armenian genocide, this is not so old and therefore a totaly diferrent matter...
Well i would have stopped by now talking about this, but you should not tell me how patriot i can be.
Now you seem to confuse patriotism with nationalism. Dont do that.
Then who talked about the roman empire.
Again I must say: DONT SAY SOMETHING JUST TO SAY IT. That will not excuse that you were promoted to junior member with only half participation than me.
ok then lets talk about something more recent: what about IMIA? American invasion in Iraq and turks thying to get their share against Kurdistan people?
That discuss will never end and must stop here.

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Nov. 08 2003,18:40)]
Quote[/b] (TYR @ Nov. 08 2003,16:32)]CONSTANTINOPLE IS THE CAPITOL OF GREECE
What all the eastern european nations suffer from is unrealistic history books... especially in greece where the church is trying to convince us that 1) they supported the greek liberation struggle 2) we are Byzantines
you are wrong man...
sorry to hear these

[Cebei]

We have to change the topic. This is not a foreign policy forum and the thread has little to do with what is discussed here. I had to step in because some people are misinforming the forum.

You guys better calm down, nobody said anything bad about anything you care for.

As for the Armenian genocide; I have better access to historical documents and people (Turkish AND Armenian), if you further the discussion I will have to ask you how many books you read about the issue and whether you know sufficient Ottoman language to fully interpret government documents or how many years you studied the issue on post-doctoral level. Are you a historian too or you just read two books on the issue and throwing around facts?

Because only after these criteria you will have enough knowledge to discuss the matter with me. And I doubt you will still want to discuss the issue after you know what really happened there.

I still dont understand why non-Armenians are trying to falsify me (futile attempt that may be). True Armenians wont bring the topic, because both governments are taking steps to improve their relations and build close cooperation over the ashes of the past.

As for the Kurdish case; I support Kurdish position on that (non-terrorist factions of course) and think they should build their own state. That issue is irrelevant. I am not selective about anything, which I think I prove to the furthest extent by voting for the Kurdish party.

Avoid speaking on issues you are not fully informed.

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]CONSTANTINOPLE IS THE CAPITOL OF GREECE

Wow strange people are flowing in from all directions...

[rasoforos]

Quote[/b] (Paxx @ Nov. 08 2003,16:59)]
Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ Nov. 08 2003,18:40)]
Quote[/b] (TYR @ Nov. 08 2003,16:32)]CONSTANTINOPLE IS THE CAPITOL OF GREECE
What all the eastern european nations suffer from is unrealistic history books... especially in greece where the church is trying to convince us that 1) they supported the greek liberation struggle 2) we are Byzantines
you are wrong man...
sorry to hear these
why am i wrong exactly?
is it false that :
1) the church excommunicated the freedom fighters , promintent figures were betrayed by monks to the turks ( kolokotronis)
2) the eastern roman empire persecuted greeks for 700 years violently converting them to christianity? / 'greek' is never mentioned as 'byzantine' , it only means the non-christian non roman ?

some people in modern greece have to choose if they are hellenes or romoioi , if they are the second they can go back to konstantinople and solve their problems with the turks... and leave us alone. Its time we get rid of all this byzantine/orthodox legacy ( imposed to us by a nation that conquered us , the romans) and find out who we really are.

By the way its never gonna end if you dont stop it guys ,you are fighting (actually one of you is fighting ,the other is trying to disengage himself from this mess ) for no reason ....Cebei put an emoticon, so what???...FFS...are you gonna hung him for that?

[Cebei]

Quote[/b] ]Cebei put an emoticon, so what???...

It wasnt even aimed at anything Greek or Byzantian. Jeez I feel nagged on because of sth I didnt do.

[The_Emperor]

Ok, This thread has gone a bit too wild.

It was only intended as a Comparison between the three main styles of faction in the game, just to see what people think of them.

At any rate it seems that much has been misunderstood.

[Paxx]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Nov. 08 2003,20:46)]We have to change the topic. This is not a foreign policy forum and the thread has little to do with what is discussed here. I had to step in because some people are misinforming the forum.

You guys better calm down, nobody said anything bad about anything you care for.

As for the Armenian genocide; I have better access to historical documents and people (Turkish AND Armenian), if you further the discussion I will have to ask you how many books you read about the issue and whether you know sufficient Ottoman language to fully interpret government documents or how many years you studied the issue on post-doctoral level. Are you a historian too or you just read two books on the issue and throwing around facts?

Because only after these criteria you will have enough knowledge to discuss the matter with me. And I doubt you will still want to discuss the issue after you know what really happened there.

I still dont understand why non-Armenians are trying to falsify me (futile attempt that may be). True Armenians wont bring the topic, because both governments are taking steps to improve their relations and build close cooperation over the ashes of the past.

As for the Kurdish case; I support Kurdish position on that (non-terrorist factions of course) and think they should build their own state. That issue is irrelevant. I am not selective about anything, which I think I prove to the furthest extent by voting for the Kurdish party.

Avoid speaking on issues you are not fully informed.
Misinforming? On which base? yours? your goverment's?
I asume you may know me from past saying that YOU are the one who knows everything about anyone telling that I am not informed and even more suggest ME not to talk about it...
the kurdish matter was as an example for more recent ''history'' someone ''greek'' wanted.

rasoforos κριμα να απαρνεισαι την ιστορια σου εστω κι αν δεν σαρέσει...αλλα δεν θα το γράψω στα αγγλικά χάρη της ομονοίας (αν υπάρχε&#953http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif που υποτίθεται μας διακρίνει..

[Cebei]

OK, crusaders were repelled by Byzantium, Turks ate everyone, I am ignorant.

Are we settled now?

[Cebei]

Great I am happy that we could manage this discussion within ourselves without moderator interference. Thanks guys

[Paxx]

As I answered before I prefer playing with Orthodox and Catholics either.
Sorry if I was offensive.

[kataphraktoi]

Tell you what Cebei,

I agree with the strange place of foreign policy in this thread so we'll just leave it at that.

I have my strong views which I will not detract because of my own research and reading, while you, likewise, have the same view and position regarding your own opinions. Perhaps it may or may not come up in the future, but that is not for us to worry as of this present meantime.

*You are a historian and I recognise that and me? Well I get my degree in Politics and History this year http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

now to try my hand at an architecture degree next year.

I offer the Pax Kataphraktoi in exchange for a Pax Cebei.

[Cebei]

Sure The only officials archives are in Ankara. Be my guest for couple of days and see for yourself. Good luck with your degree. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[biguth dickuth]

I apologise to everyone for coming to back to the later discussion, but i just want to make a few remarks. This is my post in this forum.

Paxx, my remarks are for you. Please try not to be offended 'cause i mean no offence and i just want to clarify a couple of matters. In one of your posts in page 3 you answer to one of my posts. You wrote:


Quote[/b] ]Then who talked about the roman empire.

When i wrote about the roman empire i meant the eastern roman empire = byzantium because the byzantines called themselves romans and their state the roman empire or just the empire. I hope this makes sense...

And a second thing:


Quote[/b] ]Again I must say: DONT SAY SOMETHING JUST TO SAY IT. That will not excuse that you were promoted to junior member with only half participation than me.


Making personal comments is not too kind....
I don't know why i was promoted with so few posts but i'm glad about it....
I don't know why you are not promoted yet but i hope you will soon....
This is some kind of advice. I don't want you to be offended, just think about it and tell me if i'm wrong:
Most people don't like personal hints and irony so please try to avoid it....

This is it..... BYE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[lancer63]

It seems I landed in another pissing contest. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Keep at it and don't mind me people. I didn't know I was in the OT forums. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Gregoshi]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Nov. 09 2003,07:32)]Great I am happy that we could manage this discussion within ourselves without moderator interference. Thanks guys
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Paxx]

biguth dickuth
so now you can see the connection all the way from (eastern) roman empire, byzantium, romious, (greeks). This is you history wether you like it or not.
You apologise but insist also. I could have answered to cebei but didnt.
You also say
Making personal comments is not too kind....
But youre the one who started about
...as long as you keep an open mind and that love doesn't become pathological.
Too much patriotism is dangerous you know....
You insist on giving hints rather than use them for yourself.
GOODBYE to you too (ditto) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[kataphraktoi]

Ditto. Paxx's new word http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[FoundationII]

I ussually play christian because they just have stronger infantry but it's very irritating that I can't properly expand without being excommunicated and suffer the consequenses like the rebellions and crusades. I prefer the muslims and the orthodox because they don't have a pope, the muslims have the jihad so they are my prefered religion.

[HawaiianHobbit]

Islamic- You don't have to worry about the Pope and the Turks are just so much fun. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[scudknight]

I play catholic because I don't want to burn in hell.



Wait..... I'm not catholic I'm American http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Bevan of Hertfordshire]

Catholicism for me, when the pope calls for Deus Volt I answer the call, and keep the lands for myself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Cebei]

How about paganism? Mother nature, Goktanri and others...

[BeetleLord]

I almost got lost in the terribly important debate over the state and historical values of the Byzantines. However, I thought I might contribute my little piece to the original poll about which religion I prefer to play in the GAME.

I rarely consider the religion when choosing which faction to play. Generally, I look at my options and find a frame of mind to approach my campaign with(e.g. I think I will be the Turks and see if I can crush the Byzzies, Take the little Danes and root out the Holy Romans, or Secure all of Spain for our Islamic cause.) Once I have this frame of mind in place, it guides my actions during gameplay. If I am playing Catholic and the actions of the Pope really factor into my goals, then I worry about keeping him happy. If the Pope runs counter to my goals and I get excommunicated, oh well, there are other priests waiting to be made puppet Popes.

Unfortunately, I am a computer programmer not a historian. But in my mind, this seems to match the actions of some historic rulers that pursued goals without always considering the consequences of their actions in their entirety.

Hope everyone enjoyed their weekend.

[Gregoshi]

Hail and welcome to BeetleLord. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Fear not Programmers are welcomed around here too. We have this utility we need you to write... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Cebei @ Nov. 17 2003,11:34)]How about paganism? Mother nature, Goktanri and others...
This Poll was created before the Viking Invasion Expansion pack, so no Playable Pagan factions existed in MTW at the time I posted the Poll... As such including the Pagans in the Poll seemed a bit pointless.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Fear not Programmers are welcomed around here too. We have this utility we need you to write...


ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I forgot to mention a religion... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

My favorite are:
-Catholic, because of the heavy units and Crusades (although the Pope is a problem).
-Muslim, because of the different aproach...
-Orthodox, because of the great variety of units...

And since we can use the -ian command:

-Pagan, because of those sweeeeet Mongol Units... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well, well, well... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

It seems I selected them all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Yeeep, that's about right... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Nov. 25 2003,17:57)]I forgot to mention a religion... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

My favorite are:
-Catholic, because of the heavy units and Crusades (although the Pope is a problem).
-Muslim, because of the different aproach...
-Orthodox, because of the great variety of units...

And since we can use the -ian command:

-Pagan, because of those sweeeeet Mongol Units... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Well, well, well... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

It seems I selected them all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Yeeep, that's about right... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Impossible to disagree, my dear Lord Aymar… Though I always miss inquisitors when playing others than Catholic, they give the medieval setting a certain flair, don't you think?

[Sun Tzui]

Quote[/b] ]crusades were religious wars and the sack of Hagia Sophia shows the lack of religious purity of the 4th crusaders http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif don't forget to mention that sometimes in history crusades were used as a sort of political weapon to erradicate any type of dissent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

But sticking to the real subject:

1-Catholic (the Pope poses a challenge)
2-Orthodox (Byzantium rules)
3-Muslim (tottaly different style of play)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]Though I always miss inquisitors when playing others than Catholic, they give the medieval setting a certain flair, don't you think?
Except when it's your general on trial... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Voigtkampf]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ Dec. 30 2003,06:41)]
Quote[/b] ]Though I always miss inquisitors when playing others than Catholic, they give the medieval setting a certain flair, don't you think?
Except when it's your general on trial... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Indeed… There was a raving grand inquisitor that began prosecuting my generals; by the time I had a high valor assassins brought in the said province and exposed of the workaholic inquisitor, he already burned four or five of my high ranking generals.

I was not happy, to say the least…

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] ]There was a raving grand inquisitor that began prosecuting my generals; by the time I had a high valor assassins brought in the said province and exposed of the workaholic inquisitor, he already burned four or five of my high ranking generals.

I was not happy, to say the least…
Happened to me when playing the English.
Not a very relaxing or rewarding experience... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif