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View Full Version : Fleeing BUG.



theforce
12-07-2000, 22:51
Well l m sure you all hate this...
while you men are winning and the enemy is about to rout yer general dies and your 600 men run away fromm an amry of 200 men or less that were about to flee because the general is dead. And how on earth do they find out that the general is dead since they are fighting!!!
The point is that the flee code needs to change. Also rally is useLess making a unit or two to stop running only to start agian running after about 5 seconds...
There are also some who have cav and when all their units are out the keep running around the map and you can reach em.
Maybe they can do something for it.

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dont use only honour use the force, too.

Tenchimuyo
12-07-2000, 22:59
I guess you'll just have to avoid sending you Taisho into battle. Unless his unit has really good honour.

Dark Phoenix
12-07-2000, 23:08
I noticed one time that when a unit was routing that one of the men was running backwards. Seeing that was rather amusing. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Phoenix

[This message has been edited by Dark Phoenix (edited 12-07-2000).]

Vanya
12-08-2000, 00:51
Must have been Michael Jackson-sama moonwalking away from the enemy so they wouldn't scratch his face...

hach
12-08-2000, 01:21
no that was the italian samurai unit advancing to the front!!!!!!

hahaha

sorry italian friends!!!!!

Rob
12-08-2000, 01:31
I've been affected by this a lot lately. I keep losing my Taisho! Don't know what's got into him lately, but he seems to be getting decidely suicidal http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

However, it does make winning all the more satisfying, knowing that you've won against the odds http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Puzz3D
12-08-2000, 01:57
They know the general is dead because of the disturbance in 'the force' that occurs when he dies. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif My guys don't always run when the general dies. I think it's a good feature. It can work both ways.

As far as chasing cav goes, lack of your own cav can leave you in this situation. If you've got several units you should be able to corral them, but it is tedious. If you have more than twice as many men, marching toward them might be enough to make the cav rout.

theforce
12-08-2000, 02:20
Well u can leave yer general behind but l have general is very importand when general fights. The morale gets better and also you can route already fighting units when moving your generla in.

Tachikaze
12-08-2000, 05:04
I think theforce raises a good point.

At one point in the Battle of Hastings, rumor spread that William had been killed. In order to support the morale of his troops, William raised his helmet to show his face to his men, and confirm he was still among the living.

At Guagamela, Darius fled from battle and his soldiers on the Persian right saw him, and fled as well. The center, unaware of Darius' flight, kept fighting.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

The Black Ship
12-08-2000, 07:00
Bah!!!!

I hate the whole morale system when it goes against me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif Lately that's been more the case. When your Taisho dies it seems to effect your whole army, but when the other guy dies it's like nothing happened!

Well...that's the way I see it when I lose http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gifLOL


One thing I really do believe to be flukey (really, I'm serious this time) is when your ally flees thru your men and your boys start thinking it's a good idea too! How are you to help your ally out in such a case...he becomes a menace http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif My leadership abilities shouldn't be diminshed....and don't say "get out of the way"! You and I both know it's not always that easy http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

Puzz3D
12-08-2000, 08:18
The cascading routing effect has been a real bugaboo for me. I now pay more attention to what the direction of rout is going to be, and take that into account when positioning units. Letting several units get bunched up was a bad habit of mine. Even when helping an ally, I try not to mix in with his units. It's all easier said than done which is what makes the game challenging. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Rob
12-08-2000, 08:27
Like all things, it works both ways. I take great pleasure in focussing my attacking power on a group of enemy units, routing them and watching with pleasure as fear and panic spreads throughout the enemy ranks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I'm learning to cope with losing my Taisho now http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif The secret is to let him die early; by the time your men start thinking about running away, they will have forgotten all about him http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

A routing Taisho is, IMO, worse than a dead one http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

BanzaiZAP
12-08-2000, 10:18
I think the whole morale aspect is one of the best parts of this game! Sure, if you're unlucky you will have a nearly-whole army routed due to the loss of a general, but in SP, I continually use about 1500 men to rout an enemy army of 7000! Just rout his vanguard, and his reinforcements are useless! Rally works for me, you just have to be careful with timing and placement.

-- B)

leoknite
12-08-2000, 12:04
well strangely enough high honoured taisho units effect yur army, I use a h9 yari samis on occasion, and have found not only they can take a crap load o monks at one time, can handle flanks, can kill maybe over 300 men, but they can also fight after taisho dies, more interesting once this happened, my whole army was about to run like hell, then noticed 45 yari still whalin on the army, that all calmed and down and continued to rout the rest of em, mind you i was attacking uphill!

ShadowKill
12-08-2000, 16:53
Anyone seen thew patriot with Mel Gibson well watch it and see how whole formations can break and run away

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Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

http://www.geocities.com/peacekeeper316/Shadow.jpg

hach
12-08-2000, 18:14
i hate fresh units routing.
units with 119 guys out of 120!!!!!arrgghh

hach

theforce
12-08-2000, 19:25
Patriot was a crap movie stick with Braveheart. First of all americans had LESS soldiers but in patriot they were more in the last battle a lot more. Also 2 kids and a man kill 20 men!!!!!! My point that the film is historically inaccurate .

ShadowKill
12-08-2000, 19:34
I did not say it was historicly correct just said see them flee I got a kick out of it.

but now to go more indepth. if you have you guys in a pile and your general dies all your men are going to take off just that simple you see your general with his head on a spear your ass would run to http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif but now if your general dies and your men are just standing there and not fighting then they will not run right away. unless they see the units that were fighting running away. But If you were a better Leader yourself you would not lose your general unless he was the last unit left.

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Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

http://www.geocities.com/peacekeeper316/Shadow.jpg

Didz
12-08-2000, 20:21
In MP games I feel safer putting my general in a Level 4+ Naginata unit. It seems to work.

BTW: Both Patriot and U571 are crap films aimed at making white Americans empty their wallets in Universals pocket in order to have their ego's stroked and feel good about themselves. I refused to allow my children to go and see such utter rubbish.

Not only are they an insult to the real hero's of these events but they are an insult to the American cinema going public who Universal clearly consider to be so self-centred and immmature that they cannot be trusted to pay to see a film which portray's the true facts.

[This message has been edited by Didz (edited 12-08-2000).]

Avenging Warrior
12-08-2000, 20:38
Oh, you damn Brits... you still can't get over what happened around 200 years ago? That's just sad. I didn't want to insult anyone, but this just came out. Sorry, I had to.

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Life has no meaning. Do not concern yourself with it.

Didz
12-08-2000, 21:22
AW: I don't give a damn about what happened 200 years ago. My only concern is that what happened 200 years ago is accurately portrayed by American film-makers and not corrupted in order to make a fast buck.

Unfortunately, people watching these films are actually gullable enough to believe that they are true and so the real facts get forgotten. If they want to make a fanatsy film then they should stick to the Star Wars saga and not rewrite History.

DragonCat
12-08-2000, 21:49
Back on topic,

I love and hate the morale issues - bet you can guess when I love it and when I hate it. But it IS one of the best parts of the game. Some tips from someone who has participated in a lot of routs . . . on BOTH ends.

Leave someone back out of the way. Once EVERYone is routing, you will hear the sad music that means you are done for the day.

If you are being pursued, you won't be able to rally men. Even if you get lucky and rally one, the pursuit will make them break again. This means having some blockers that can intervene so you can get the "room" to rally.

Ever been in those last seconds in a titanic melee struggle and first to break will lose? I've found that committing my cavalry archers to a well timed charge can win the day. I've had one unit of cav archers charge 4 times in one battle, breaking units all over the place. Try it, its FUN!

I once had a battle that had gotten down to just bits and pieces. I managed to rally my men eight times, hide them from the enemy guns behind the briefest shadow of a molehill, and come around that molehill to smite and rout the enemy. This was on Totomi, by the way, so you know what I mean by molehill.

Putting men in loose formation, putting men off on their lonesome, letting men feel endangered by having enemy on their flanks and on their rear, having your men exhausted and having your men too near the edge of the board are all good ways to make them rout. Put more than two of these in combination and its adios!

The edge of the board problem seems to be a bug. I have seen units rout before combat is even joined. In battles of more than 1x1 it seems to get worse. I advise you STAY AWAY FROM THE EDGE!



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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

Nelson
12-08-2000, 21:50
The "problem" isn't with the films but with the fact that the public that sees them doesn't/can't distinguish fact from fantasy. This is entertainment, not history. Unfortunately, while getting entertained too many folks think they're learning something.

I believe people get more (bad) history from film than any other source by far. Very very few people read history. It's so boring and useless for them.

ShadowKill
12-09-2000, 00:40
I'M Sorry I'M Sorry for ever bringing up a movie get back on topic PLZ ah man that teaches me to open my mouth about a movie. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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Fear not the sword to your front, but the blade at your back.

http://www.geocities.com/peacekeeper316/Shadow.jpg

Tachikaze
12-09-2000, 01:05
I think the point that was unique to theforce's orginal post was that soldiers would not be able to have knowledge of their taisho's death while they are in the heat of combat, and thus, could not be affected by it.

No one should argue the importance of morale. Unless you're bloodthirsty and want to see every single enemy soldier get cut to pieces, you have to accept war as a conflict between humans who don't want to die. If they have have to choose between running and dying . . .

Real generals have to deal with this reality and so do we. Frankly, I consider it a greater victory to cause the enemy to run with as few casualties (to either side) as possible. That means I have defeated them through guile, rather than brute force. I have to accept that my troops may run early too. It's my fault if they do (unless there's a bug, which is always the case when I lose), and my opponent's well-earned victory.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

theforce
12-09-2000, 01:58
They don't want to die u say? Well most of the times they die because they flee. Even if they are more and better they flee cause the genaral is dead... so what? keep killing http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif .

The Black Ship
12-11-2000, 00:57
Some free advice to all, for multi-play at least.
1) never stand in the fleeing path of the enemy, you will kill your fair share, but you're basically neutralized until he has gotten off the map. All those h-t-h men could be better used elsewhere. Tail-chase is definitely more condusive to victory.
2) routing the enemy's wings has infinitely less value then rounting his center. This is due to the number of men the routing troops influence and/or get in the way of. While 120 routing Teppo aren't supposed to do squat to your monks and samurai you'll limit his ability to maneuver, and Ashi's hate a good rout too.
3) as stated earlier, get the hell out of the way of your, and of course your ally's routing troops.
4) don't bother with the rally button if the unit is closely followed by the router (as opposed to you being the routee). You'll just waste the unit's rally chances, better to save them if the enemy can be diverted from chasing you off the map.
5) Provide a distraction for your fleeing troops. Lie, feint, taunt, whatever, to get the enemy from chasing you off the board! My all time favorite is "thank god you got here with those 300 WM" broadcast over the chat window http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

FeartheolD
12-12-2000, 08:02
I do think that if your general is dead then your troops moral is shot to bits.

Imagine you are a lowly Ashi and you findout that the guy that made you fight and all his mates are dead what are you going to do ..... why run away before the enemy catches you and makes you fight in his army or kills you but seriously. Its your presence in the game the general if he gets killed so do you solution protect your general make him that little bit higher honour and keep him away from the action if you can. What i would like to see is the general having a line of site honour bonous on the rest of the army. So that if the general is able to see all his troops then the troops would get a morale bonus. this would prevent some players keping their general well back and hidden. they should also have a more inspirational effect on their troops if they are close by in the thick of battle. This would in some ways counter the effect of your general being killed.

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http://feartheold.homestead.com/files/fear_the_old.gif
Keep you exits clear and your needles clean

Ieyasu
12-12-2000, 19:41
I don't know... I happen to think the whole morale thing brings an interesting facet to the game. Otherwise (and I have played games where the morale settings were turned off by the host), it's a bunch of robotic automatons slaughtering each other. Where's the tension in that? Half of the ideas of strategically figuring out ways to win is by placing your men in a way of attacking or defending that will avoid low morale and avoid routing... give it to the other poor sod. Change ground, work advantages and disadvantages. That's the game! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

In the end, yeah, it sucks when it happens... but having one flank fold doesn't necessarily spell the end... and it certainly makes the game a lot more intense.

Just me humble opinion.

Cheers.

ElmarkOFear
12-13-2000, 00:25
If any of you have played Sid Meier's Gettysburg, it handles the way in which morale is given by the General very well. The general has to be within a certain distance (line of site) for each group of soldiers to receive a bonus to his morale. IF the general is too far away then there is not a bonus. Also, when your men are beginning to show signs of routing, taking your general to them increases their morale immediately and can keep them from running. Therefor, you have to actively use your general to keep up the morale of your troops. If you let him stay in one position then you will more than likely lose any bonus you may have when the battle moves away from you. I found it a very easy transition from Gettsyburg to Shogun. If you have not pl;ayed it I would highly recommend the game. ElmarkOFear

Hirosito
12-13-2000, 04:41
i agree with elmark in that if you were outnumbered in gettysburg you could position your general at the weakest flank and therefore hold out until reinforcements arrive.

In STW the generals honour is just immediately translated into unit honour and that's it they could have expanded on it

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Hirosito Mori

A warrior's wisdom is shown in the treating of his defeated opponent http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/owen/sid.gif

Ieyasu
12-13-2000, 17:41
That is an interesting bit of programming for such RTS games... I would love to look into Gettysburg someday. Perhaps STW will have such an idea in one of their updates. It would certainly make things more interesting in terms of strategic positioning, and makes a lot of sense.

yodasplat
12-14-2000, 01:29
Quote Originally posted by hach:
no that was the italian samurai unit advancing to the front!!!!!!

hahaha

sorry italian friends!!!!![/QUOTE]

I'm italian and I still think it's funny ... and true.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Italian Samurai Unit...

:>

Yoda

theforce
12-14-2000, 18:21
There are some times when the battle wages on for a long time and l m about to loose i throw my general in the battle that makes the enemy units to rout. Neat ha? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

BanzaiZAP
12-15-2000, 00:55
I've seen that too. Also, when things are deperate, the enemy will do the Suicidal Daimyo that people saw early on - I think there already ARE morale bonuses depending on Taisho placement and action. Back when Target was around he had said something about it. Any resident programmers want to give an Official Word? I guess we'll just have to experiment. (Igor! Find another subject!)

-- B)

ElmarkOFear
12-15-2000, 04:03
There is a boost given by charging a fresh unit into the fray at end of battle. It may not rout the enemy but it may help the unit you charged to help hold on a little longer and not cause the routing of your whole army. Sometimes seconds count, anything you can do to hold the line for a few seconds more may be the difference between winning and losing. Elmarko of Fearful ways

theforce
12-15-2000, 18:38
Well l love rushers. They tend to attack my 1st line and leave all my wm and no-dashi flank http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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dont use only honour use the force, too.

TooCool
12-15-2000, 19:11
I agree with theForce about:
"And how on earth do they find out that the general is dead since they are fighting!!! "
But on the other hand, how the units which are very far from the taisho and are fighting can hear and execute the orders immediatly? IMHO, a system like "Gettysburg" would be much more realistic: some orders (like charge) can be received by a unit only if this unit is in the "command range" of the taisho. And an unit which is out of this range wouldn't be affect by the death of the taisho.

theforce
12-16-2000, 16:26
In Gladiator the general ordered his troops to beggin to throw fire balls and arrows to the Germans with a fire arrow. Ok in Shogun you can't throw up an arrow and your men to know to attack a particular unit. There is the idea for a messanger in each unit delivering the orders to each unit form the general but it would take a lot of time to arrive distand units and it could reveal yer flanking units hiding in a forest. In any army general is close to his men. And also generals don't control the entire armies. They control the main part of the amry but left flank, right flank , cavarly is commanded by other generals. Take Great Alexander for example. While he was the one controlling the main body of the army, cavalry and flank where commanded by other men trusted by him.