What should be the New Florin Standard?

[Kanuni]

Of course I'm not trying to determine the standard here. I just want to learn the opinion of the majority.

[Dionysus9]

I've been playing with 10k and its better than 15k in my opinion.

With the +2 morale 15k plays a little loose-- mistakes are forgiven too easily.

I prefer to play a tight game where mistakes are punished. 10k is perfect.

[ShadesWolf]

I am currently hosting a lot of 2v2 30k per side battles, which seems to work well

SO for me its 12-15k per army.

[Alrowan]

just let it evolve... then decide

[Ryttare]

Why change a working concept

[tgi01]

Quote[/b] ]Why change a working concept

Exactly


Leave the 15 k alone, agreeing upon max 2 as 1 vs 1 community standard ( it is already a CWB standard ) is much more important ....




TGI

[Major Robert Dump]

only played about 10 games, but 12 k seems nice for me.

yes, 12 doesnt give me enough to do what i want to do, but neither does 15. I have had more fun games with 12 because, as stated earlier, mistakes are punished.

[Shahed]

12 is pretty tight, 10 is very tight, 15 gives some room for newbies to have a chance against you.

I had a 20k game last night, that was very good too.

At that level your valor 1 Templars can charge and charge again and again into the rear of a frontally engaged unit. That's fun, isn't it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

12-15 seems adequate to me, to give EVERYONE a "fair" chance against you..

[LRossaLordJimi]

I think CA did a very good job in balance.
This is what i try at the standard of 15k.I don't see any reason to change it and allow again heavy tank cavs.
Ave

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ May 15 2003,03:50)]12 is pretty tight, 10 is very tight, 15 gives some room for newbies to have a chance against you.

I had a 20k game last night, that was very good too.

At that level your valor 1 Templars can charge and charge again and again into the rear of a frontally engaged unit. That's fun, isn't it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

12-15 seems adequate to me, to give EVERYONE a "fair" chance against you..
To give me a fair chance against Kanuni, we need 2 standards, one amount for him, and twice that for me.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

More seriously, ppl shall play all kind of different Fl level, that makes all kind of different level... Want a fast game with close tactic positionning? Go low Fl... A massive game focusing on matchup woith possible 'faraway' expeditions (guys going alone far from main corp), you may want higher fl level...

For tournament purpose...Well clans must first decide to move to VI...

Louis,

[Puzz3D]

MajorDump,

As I recall, you and Obake got "punished" pretty badly in that 3v3 last night, and it was a 15k/player game. Does 850 kills vs 350 kills across the board ring any bells? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[theKyl]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

15k and 12k are both nice.

[Kongamato]

I have no problem with anything in the 10k-15k range.

I want to try 13750 sometime.

[1dread1lahll]

In Shogun it started at 5,000 koku and has creept up ever sense.... but we can rest assured it wont go past 99,999....

[ShadesWolf]

5k 1dread1lahll was ok for an Ashi army, but werent the units a lot cheaper...

Even Monks were quite cheap in comparison the some of the heavy units in MTW.

[Div Hunter]

Keep the 15k it works well for everyone http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[baz]

15k should not be the new standard on VI .. the whole point of the +2 morale increase was because the system in M:TW was thought to have a better balance between individual units when they have less upgrades, these upgrades cause problems as they exaggerate the small original differences between units ..
=>
hence the +2 morale increase allows us to gain the same morale level used in MTW at a lower florin cost in VI
=>
hence units will have less upgrades and be more balanced in VI

i have not done any calculations myself as i am not too keen to switch to VI totally for a few reasons (CWB, bugs, etc..) but we should definately use less florins on VI

if anyone thinks that what i wrote makes no sense then please let me know .. Baz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Kocmoc]

yup baz ur right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

u cant change the player, in the next patch i would del this +2 moral, as all will still sue 15k in most games.

1 solution would be a ladder, with comp games where we get a standart amount of florin wich we cant change, imo the standart in VI should be 10k, not more

koc

[Magyar Khan]

there is always a big difference between what we like and feel and teh big masses. better start accepting that trying to chance a thing is wasting energy. if people liek to play at 15k, eihter host your own games lower or adapt and play 15k.

mongols, more effective horse archers and no valour gain during battle. actually looking at this i got more than i ever expected from my 2 legal copies of VI.

[Skomatth]

I understand u now baz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif but I think that +2 isnt enuf to do what ur suggesting. I think that there should be no upgrades like I've said a couple times, like there is is cbr's mod and like I heard kocmoc suggest. It's a great idea, but devs prolly have a reluctance to use ideas of players in making the game.

[Major Robert Dump]

now, now, yuuki,

we both know I was having chop problems on that game...do you really think I would let MizuTears archers decimate my expensive H2H units and just sit there on purpose without firing back at his h2h ?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

the wierd thing is that it actually smoothed over a bit once I got fed up and did my ctrl-a and click to get it over with. By then I had already lost probably 150 men to arrow fire. for real, check the logs, tears had super archer kills that game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Puzz3D]

I agree with Sko that the +2 morale wasn't enough to play at 5k, and 10k is still too much to really limit upgrades. My specific suggestion was to make the "morale off" setting be +6 morale which would allow very low florins. LongJohn didn't want to wipe out the possibility of low morale games with a big increase to the "morale on" setting, and so made the modest +2 increase. I don't understand the strong adverse reaction to that by some because it's not that much of an increase compared to the size of all the morale penalties that units get hit with in the course of a battle.

It is important to set the morale level before getting into balance issues. The balance suggestions for VI mostly came out of playing experience at 15k florins. It's true that dropping to 10k in VI should give the same game we had in MTW v1.1 at 15k. I know most vets were playing MTW v1.1 at 15k, but those games have been heavily criticized by some for having units that routed too easily. The way to cure that is to play at something above 10k in VI. Probably somewhere in the 10k to 15k range is where the game should be played, but we don't know exactly where yet, and now there is the idea that 1v1 might need a different florin level than the big 3v3 and 4v4 games.

Since we didn't get an adjustment to spears, I'm leaning toward the upper end of that range so spears will stand and fight better. I also don't mind unit matchups and attrition playing a greater role, and flanking playing slightly less of a role. Flanking is certainly not removed as an important tactic at 15k in VI.


MajorDump,

I remember you saying that you had control issues, but I was on the other side and didn't see you getting shot up. I hope the game is working better for you now.

[Kocmoc]

the problem is here that the units are "balanced" for 15k now, we should realy play at 10k maybe 12 but not more. but in this florinrange we have other problems as spears become weaker in this pricerange.

what we need is a full price change made for the 10k games, this would help, a spear should be cheaper and should be eat cav but shouldnt kill much h2h units. that would help a lot.
we never can realy balance it with the current 100 men units. and ofcourse we need other units wich do a better job. if we drop back to 10k the cav get more dangerous again, so if we go back with florin we should make cav less dangerous.

imo the best in our current situation would be, if we cancel the +2 moral and go back to the mtw moralsystem.
dont let units get chargebonuss if they jsut walk fast.

15k in mtw would be great if cav would be less effectiv, than 15k would be more as enought.

i think we need to change more as just 1 or 2 aspects to balance it in a nice way.

if i look at the fatique matter and all the other ideas and "complains" than i think u cant just change 1 thing and than its ok. the fatique is the same said LJ, than its the moral wich makes the fatique feel so bad as units cant made rout with so much moral. thatswhy we want to skip the moral....but than we unbalance the units....al a cav -spears...

so what we need?

first we need to think about the true good moralsystem
imo it would be around 12k in mtw, but this jsut can work if u make cav less effectiv. u remember the games before the first patches? they was very nice the cav was a bit weak but the gameplay was nice. this gameplay with better cav but not too good....

the current shooters are ok, still not enought but its acceptable. imo a cavarcher should be cheaper as they never can be worth the money with jsut 40 men and very bad attack and defence.

so all together, i think we need a new basic system. like i suggested already.

a ladder with hard fixed rules and ofcourse a very small upgrade system. so, no weapon and armouupgrades. just +1 or -1 valour. than we have a base with wich we can work, this would be possible to balance. lets just do it with comp games and free games u can do what u want. as the most want in the top100, all will use this system anyway and get used to it in a short time

if we know the hard rules than its very easy to balance it. but if u look now its just impossible. as still player play with 20k or 25k each. u can play this games without moral it would be nearly the same.

but this game is all about moral, or we have nothing else as a arcade game

like in my other posts, i suggest units like this
spearunit 1 (9) 7 (15), a good base moral and this units should be the fastest h2h unit in game, they eat cav and should be cheap..

a cav 1 (9) 3(12) ofcourse fastes cav on the field, jsut as a countercav, this would be great as u cant just buy knights and send them somewhere u always need to think where to move, the skill will be increased

and ofcourse u would have spears wich would do theyr job

koc

[ErikJansen]

I've gotten a few games using the VI add on under my belt now, and my first impression is simple.

I'd not wish for a standard above 15k. Using morale penalties against an enemy is a skill, routing someone instead of having to slug it out vs them is a skill. Above ca 15k this gets proportionally harder...

[Alrowan]

hmm.. im daring to say 10k now... after a few more 10k games.. it seems much better at that level. People need to think where they place thier mony, not just going for the even spread