Richard the Lionhearted...

[Leet Eriksson]

I found in one of the history books written in arabic that Richard was'nt really a badguy afterall(in an islamic prespective sort-of-way).well in the takeover of Akko part,where he executes the 3000 muslim prisoners.Actually he did'nt kill 3000 soldiers or ordered to kill them,it was conrad de (something...,can't translate since arabic names are pretty different from english or french)who told the archers to fire just when the crusader prisoners arrived for the exchange.richard got really mad and was going to kill him.and in another part one of the french knights offered to withdraw from combat for saladin to flank the crusdaers,although Al Adel(saladins brother)accepted this offer Saladin refused it becuase it was not chivalric(muslims did'nt have chivalry but they did have something similiar called furuseiya)and sent the letter of the french knight to richard who executed him later.

The book was only written in arabic and was pretty old,it called Al Ahd al Saleebi,translated "Crusader era" it talks in depth about the fighting orders,european arms and armour and european tactics,and its the only book that accuratly displays english,french and other crusading countries flags.it was written by several known historians and uses european sources to properly represent the crusaders and arabic sources to represent the muslims,and its pretty unbiased since there is aboslutely nothing negative mentioned about both religions.

EDIT:small mistake Salabi should be Saleebi :P

[Dîn-Heru]

Interesting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Pablo Sanchez]

Interesting story:
When Richard got fatally wounded by a crossbow, they brought the bowman before him, so he could talk to him before he died. He asked the guy why he shot him, and the bowman replied that Richard had killed most all of his family. King Richard ordered that the man be released without harm upon his death, but his advisors killed the guy anyway.

[Knight_Yellow]

it doesnt pay to be nice then.

[Stormer]

i knew an english king could never be that nasty. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Skie Mirror Silvanoshei]

Did yall know that he was homosexual? That's why he never married.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (Skie Mirror Silvanoshei @ May 15 2003,19:45)]Did yall know that he was homosexual? That's why he never married.
Well, I believe that's the story, anyway.

Similarly, Alexander the Great never had children for the same reason. So, when US conservatives try to say that homosexuality will destroy America, I wonder why they don't try pointing at the Empire of Macedon. j/k http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Heraclius]

or that of ancient Rome or almost any other empire. in fact there really was no concept of homosexuality as distinct, different and eventually much worse than heterosexuality until Christianity gained full sway in Europe.

[Elwe]

Quote[/b] (Heraclius @ May 15 2003,20:24)]or that of ancient Rome or almost any other empire. in fact there really was no concept of homosexuality as distinct, different and eventually much worse than heterosexuality until Christianity gained full sway in Europe.
Agreed.

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Skie Mirror Silvanoshei]

Quote[/b] ](Heraclius @ May 15 2003,20:24)
or that of ancient Rome or almost any other empire. in fact there really was no concept of homosexuality as distinct, different and eventually much worse than heterosexuality until Christianity gained full sway in Europe.


One Christianity held full sway in Europe there were still many homosexual rulers. Well during the Middle Ages anyway.

[Longshanks]

Richard the Lionheart married. His wife's name was Berengaria of Navarre. He also had an illegitimate son with another woman who was born before he was wed to Beregaria. The allegations that Richard was homosexual are based on two things. His close relationship with King Philip of France, and his pennance befor his marriage.(some allege that he was atoning for being homosexual) There is however, no evidence of anything unnatural in Philip and Richard's freindship, and the allegations of homosexuality stem from a misunderstanding of medieval custom and a mistranslation of Latin referring to their relationship. We can also not draw any conclusions from his pennance. As he had fathered a child and a possible challenge to any heir before being wed, it is more likely that was the cause for his pennance.

Was Richard a homosexual, or bisexual? Possibly. But there isn't any evidence supporting claims that he was.

[redrooster]

Quote[/b] (Pablo Sanchez @ May 16 2003,10:18)]Similarly, Alexander the Great never had children for the same reason. So, when US conservatives try to say that homosexuality will destroy America, I wonder why they don't try pointing at the Empire of Macedon. j/k http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Alexander had children http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

btw the Knight who ordered those muslims to be killed was french...

[monkian]

Well he must have been evil if he was French... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

no offence to the french,but the book made the english crusaders completly innocent and the french bloodthirsty bastards http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif and also King John II of france was a loon in the book.

[Shahed]

Birds of a feather flock together.

[Nowake]

I'm sorry to say, but Richard was more french than english himself ...


Maybe if you would pay more atention, you would know that his brother was called John Without Country (or something like that, sorry, I translated the expression from romanian) because he lost the lands in France ...



Cheers ... didn't want to ruin your thing, but ... history does seem to be fair on this matter ...

[BlackWatch McKenna]

Those Homosexual arguments are always thrown around by detractors.

I am not commenting on homosexuality in general, just pointing out that it is always the first thing that a man's enemies say about him.

[Dîn-Heru]

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ May 16 2003,16:16)]I'm sorry to say, but Richard was more french than english himself ...


Maybe if you would pay more atention, you would know that his brother was called John Without Country (or something like that, sorry, I translated the expression from romanian) because he lost the lands in France ...



Cheers ... didn't want to ruin your thing, but ... history does seem to be fair on this matter ...
You are right. Richard was more french than english.
John's nickname in English is Lackland

About Richard and John from the official site of the British Monarchy (http://www.royal.gov.uk)

RICHARD I COEUR DE LION ('THE LIONHEART' ) (r. 1189-1199)

Henry's elder son, Richard I (reigned 1189-99), fulfilled his main ambition by going on crusade in 1190, leaving the ruling of England to others. After his victories over Saladin at the siege of Acre and the battles of Arsuf and Jaffa, concluded by the treaty of Jaffa (1192), Richard was returning from the Holy Land when he was captured in Austria. In early 1193, Richard was transferred to Emperor Henry VI's custody.

In Richard's absence, King Philip of France failed to obtain Richard's French possessions through invasion or negotiation. In England, Richard's brother John occupied Windsor Castle and prepared an invasion of England by Flemish mercenaries, accompanied by armed uprisings. Their mother, Queen Eleanor, took firm action against John by strengthening garrisons and again exacting oaths of allegiance to the king. John's subversive activities were ended by the payment of a crushing ransom of 150,000 marks of silver to the emperor, for Richard's release in 1194. Warned by Philip's famous message 'look to yourself, the devil is loosed', John fled to the French court.

On his return to England, Richard was recrowned at Winchester in 1194. Five years later he died in France during a minor siege against a rebellious baron. By the time of his death, Richard had recovered all his lands. His success was short-lived. In 1199 his brother John became king and Philip successfully invaded Normandy. By 1203, John had retreated to England, losing his French lands of Normandy and Anjou by 1205.


JOHN (r. 1199-1216)

John was an able administrator interested in law and government but he neither trusted others nor was trusted by them. Heavy taxation, disputes with the Church (John was excommunicated by the Pope in 1209) and unsuccessful attempts to recover his French possessions made him unpopular. Many of his barons rebelled and in June 1215 they forced the King to sign a peace treaty accepting their reforms.

This treaty, later known as Magna Carta, limited royal powers, defined feudal obligations between the King and the barons, and guaranteed a number of rights. The most influential clauses concerned the freedom of the Church; the redress of grievances of owners and tenants of land; the need to consult the Great Council of the Realm so as to prevent unjust taxation; mercantile and trading relationships; regulation of the machinery of justice so that justice be denied to no one; and the requirement to control the behaviour of royal officials. The most important clauses established the basis of habeas corpus ('you have the body' ), i.e. that no one shall be imprisoned except by due process of law, and that 'to no one will we sell, to no one will we refuse or delay right or justice'.

The Charter also established a council of barons who were to ensure that the Sovereign observed the Charter, with the right to wage war on him if he did not. Magna Carta was the first formal document insisting that the Sovereign was as much under the rule of law as his people, and that the rights of individuals were to be upheld even against the wishes of the sovereign. As a source of fundamental constitutional principles, Magna Carta came to be seen as an important definition of aspects of English law, and in later centuries as the basis of the liberties of the English people.

As a peace treaty Magna Carta was a failure and the rebels invited Louis of France to become their king. When John died in 1216 England was in the grip of civil war.

[Heraclius]

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ May 16 2003,10:16)]Maybe if you would pay more atention, you would know that his brother was called John Without Country (or something like that, sorry, I translated the expression from romanian) because he lost the lands in France ...
I believe in English it can be roughly translated as the nickname John Lackland. But I thought John never was given any lands (except Ireland) in the first place. i might be wrong on that however. As for Richard he was most definitely French. I think that he might have never been fluent in English.

[Skie Mirror Silvanoshei]

Heraclius, you're right, his name was John Lackland. Richard's mother was French and Richard was duke of Aquitaine where he ruled with his mothere and when he became king of England he couldn't even speak English.

[nokhor]

didn't Richard spend only something like 6 months of his 10 year reign in England and spoke basically no English at all?

[Nowake]

Thx, I knew the expression and couldn't remember it ...

*Lackland, Fire, you crazy old bastard http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif


Anyway, my post intended to end the comments about the french, which would have lead only to a new flame war.

[Ithaskar Fëarindel]

Same reason that I keep an eye on this thread. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Nowake]

Oh, Ithaskar, don't be offended, I wasn't going to assume a moderator role and all I said was just an opinion.

[Leet Eriksson]

what i was pointing to was richard was ordering those archers and not the french guy,its really weired he told them to fire when richard is supposed to do that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif and yes i know richard is more french than british but who was commanding the british crusaders at that time?

[Dîn-Heru]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ May 18 2003,19:10)]what i was pointing to was richard was ordering those archers and not the french guy,its really weired he told them to fire when richard is supposed to do that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif and yes i know richard is more french than british but who was commanding the british crusaders at that time?
Richard Coeur de Lion ...? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

*Back to being serious.*
Is the book available as online text, Faisal ?

[Leet Eriksson]

sorry can't find an online text,it was written in the 80's and only in arabic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif atleast its more accurate than most arabic historical books.