Creative Assembly Units tire to fast [Archive]

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

05-17-2003, 13:34

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

The system is not really linear for fatigue management.

With arm 3 troops in non desert / non winter situation, I usually see the recover pretty fast from exhausted to very tired, then it gets slower from very tired to quite tired, and it is quite long from quite tired to quite fresh.
This recovery is pretty much the same wether those troops stand by or walk.
It looks somehow asymptotical (is that an english word???) to 'quite tired' for Arm 3.
Arm 5 also makes it to quite tired. Above armor 5, I think the asymptote leads to very tired, making it very difficult to heavy cav for example to go back to quite tired when they are exhausted.

(Technically it is not really asymptotical... can also say that the time to recover get exponantial as you get closer to your targe fatigue level).

So the speed of recovery depends on armor rating, where one is on the ladder, and what is the 'target' fatigue of your armor rating.

IMO,
I would somehow lower the target fatigue rating for all armors, which will make it easier to go out of exhausted down to quite tired for say armor 5 units and quite fresh for 3 in a relative short period of time.
I would put a small penalty to quite tired (additional -1), so that the step to very tired does not seem that huge.
I would increase recovery rate for standing still (right now, does not make a huge difference with arm 3 guys wether you walk or stand to recover from being exhausted... so walk).
I would reduce penalty for shooting with missile (those very tired pav are funnny).

Now when fresh, one get tired for walking / running... I don't know if I would like to change that... Might make early rush / early double more attractive.

I have been trapped in a 4v4 with fatigue off. It is not good at all. I was not aware of it and brought a lot of arm 3/5 guys, as it gives me a small edge in end game vs heavy armor in the fatigue departement. So first it was bad news for me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif and then it is somehow strange to see tons of lancers runnning around, fresh, after 30 minute of battles. Did not like it.

My 2 cents,

Louis,

edited for typo

Magyar Khan

05-17-2003, 15:09

good post louis, stay tuned when it comes to polling

Stormer

05-17-2003, 16:09

so we're gonna ask for it too be change in patch.

Magyar Khan

05-17-2003, 17:58

well asking demanding or moaning, it doesnt really matter. it has all teh same effect. the devs are faster to convince when u sent some nice girls to their doorsteps but its not only the ordinairy man than believes in miracles http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Puzz3D

05-17-2003, 21:02

removed

Major Robert Dump

05-17-2003, 21:09

We need stim packs

longjohn2

05-17-2003, 21:40

I'll just point out that armour shouldn't make a difference to fatigue in good weather non desert battles.
The only exception being those very heavily armoured units that move slowly. It's also the same rate it was in STW.

Cheetah

05-17-2003, 21:50

IMHO winter and desert battles are fine, after all that is what one expects under such circumstances. Heavy cavalry fatigue is also fine. Infantry (and perhaps light cavalry) might recover a bit faster.

ElmarkOFear

05-17-2003, 22:31

Long John says the fatigue rate is same as in STW. Then why does it feel different? Has the morale penalty increased? Do units not recover up to the same levels they could in STW? It's been awhile so I do not remember.

Magyar Khan

05-18-2003, 02:38

in cant remmeber either paying so much attention on teh fatique bars, but as i said i recently lost hillup battles just by marching 75% of map and facing enemy uphill. i routed on impact.

+DOC+

05-18-2003, 13:16

It might be the same as STW, but the maps are bigger...

CBR

05-18-2003, 13:29

Well I really have noticed it while playing on the custum large maps. I really love these maps. They really give you the option to do some nice flanking maneuvers..but the fatigue http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

And from what I could see in the tests I ran yesterday you have to be careful about what formation your units are in: Units in column is not good and same with using loose order.

And all that rain sigh

CBR

Tempiic

05-18-2003, 14:40

Maybe Shogun units moved around faster on average than medieval counterparts... so less time to cross a distance means less fatigue?

Puzz3D

05-18-2003, 15:06

test results removed because lahll said they are invalid.

Kocmoc

05-18-2003, 18:08

i think its mostly about the current moral and florinamout we use

in stw we played with less moral at all, so all units had less moral and if u did rout once u hardly could rally. now we play with stereoid units. so ur never able to win with good moves as u cant make ur enemy rout somewhere in a short time and it wont realy help to rout his whole army.

so even if u did rout 1 flank by has better skill u never can win vs the enemy units.
in stw the fatique just wasnt that important as u ever could win even with more tired units.

thats the mainreason, we cant change it about different fatique, we just can change it with less florin and less moral.

but this cause 1 other problem we get in trouble with some units wich are very expensiv u can harldy pay for them or ifu buy v0 1 im not sure about the quality of this unit. if we change it, we need to change much more as just the amount of florin we play with.

koc

Magyar Khan

05-18-2003, 18:20

in stw there was a balance between throwing many horses to one side of the enemy and the enemy having very anticav-effective spears countering it. spears were waht spears do best, killing many horses in a short period of time. where it was able to stop the impact of teh horses.

koc, in lowering florin amount i get the feeling this "cav-throwing" becomes even more important since cav are too effective vs spears, esp low-morale spears which are tired.

well whatever the test shows. we are at a stage where a vet is allowed to express what he thinks what "feels" best without getting accused of trying to chance the game to his own liking (referring to elmos post http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif).
i feel that there is still a misbalance between fatique, morale, cav and spears.

archers "feel" good now, or at least far in the right direction.

marching units should not tire in a mild climate. i never read something about tired mongols.

Kocmoc

05-18-2003, 20:51

as i wrote in my post, yes ur right. in lower florin games it get even more unbalanced, this happens as the whole game got "balanced" on the higher amount of florin. like 15 k...or around. so its missbalanced with lower florin. make cav less dangerous and than lets lower florin and the most of u will love it.

we jsut need to balance some unitprices.

i suggest again some spear units, liek this 1(plz remeber thats an example) -3(9) 8 (15) moral 8, thats a cavkiller

and this unit dont get destroyed by other h2h units in a too short time. this unit will do what they ade for, eating cav the defence vs other h2h units, well maybe to high but its jsut an example.
this unit should be faster as any other h2h unit.
60 men ofcourse

if i look at the argave units from this new faction, its something like this, but this unit get killed too fast by other h2h units.

but i think u understand my idea.

i would also create a anticav-cav, like this 1 (7) 3 (10), this would bring much more tactical points as u had a cav wiich isnt able to do much damage on h2h units but hunt other cav

koc

FearofNC

05-18-2003, 21:16

i must disagree... we dont need that kind of spear unit in the game... spears in stw were crap also...

what we really need is a dedicated anti cav horse unit... like the yari cav..

this cav unit is faster than all other cav units... will beat any other cav at equal florin... but will loose to most if not all inf units...

an example at v0 would be

2(9*) 3(10*) 3 4 with a 24 or 25 run speed...

now thats a cav killer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Kocmoc

05-19-2003, 07:07

hey nc, i guess u didnt read my post complet :P but nice that we have the same thougths, u should go back and test yarisam vs cav or ashi vs cav. they kill the cav in a quite short time.

and we need such unit, whats wrong with a real good spear unit?

they just have to do theyr job....

koc

AMPage

05-19-2003, 09:41

Spears in stw were quite good i think, at 8k and above anyway, mostly depended on how you use them and they dropped cav fast fighting them head on. Nag Foot was the only real standard inf that wasn't easy to win with unless defending a nice sizw hill, cause of its slow speed, fatigue rate, and moral.

So i think it would be nice to have what kocmoc wants, spears that do there job well vs cav in hold formation and engage at will. And have what NC wants, a cav unit like the yari cav in stw that drops other cav pretty good. Maybe we could have spears have the option to go into stationary formation which drop cav extremly fast when being attacked head on, just like in praetorains...

I agree with kocmoc that fatigue is more important cause the florins are higher so some units seem to be on steriods. And units fight longer and the longer they fight, the more they tire. So it's not like stw, rout 1 army and be able to rout a 2nd right after that, if you're good enough, because the standard florin amount people play at just keeps getting higher and higher. Try playing a game at 5k and the fatigue will be a bit better for ya, since the battles won't last as fast.

Mithrandir

05-19-2003, 10:23

Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ May 18 2003,15:16)]i must disagree... we dont need that kind of spear unit in the game... spears in stw were crap also...

what we really need is a dedicated anti cav horse unit... like the yari cav..

this cav unit is faster than all other cav units... will beat any other cav at equal florin... but will loose to most if not all inf units...

an example at v0 would be

2(9*) 3(10*) 3 4 with a 24 or 25 run speed...

now thats a cav killer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
camels http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Kocmoc

05-19-2003, 10:32

well camels are too slow

and just a few factions got them....

koc

Puzz3D

05-19-2003, 13:43

removed

Magyar Khan

05-20-2003, 00:33

why not convert the ALAN CAV unit into yaricav-like and ordinaire spearmen in cavkillers

arent these units all factions have? or maybe even use teh peasants unit for cav killers?

tgi01

05-20-2003, 11:12

Well units tire too fast thats true, unarmoured and lightly armoured units should tire much slower then they do now, heavily armoured units should tire fast ... ( heavy inf like byz should get severe penalties in desert .... )

One should be able to march like 3 times around the opposing army before attacking, without considerable fatique effects ..

One question : what is / is there a fatique rate difference between arid / temperate ???

( havent thought about this be4 but in Viking era I started hosting on temperate, becouse the damn brown units get invisible on the arid maps )

TGI

Shahed

05-20-2003, 11:22

Interesting discussion all. I do not have much to add, but would greatly appreciate an answer to this question:

What is the size of MTW large maps in km square or miles square ?

Kocmoc

05-20-2003, 11:52

i think not that playing at 10k is so bad, it will bring back more skill as u need to think how and where to move.
actual u dont need realy to move ur army well but still do too much damage.

inactivity dont get realy punished in mtw and VI

dont moving is most of times better as moving, so the whole point of the game is gone imo.

i dont like the current moralsystem at all, i admit that its better balanced as mtw was, but the moral is just too high now. units hold forever and u cna hardly rout ur enemy, even if he do lots of mistakes. u can setup an army and dont move, and im sure in 10 games if u attack frontal or flank a bit u will lose at least 3 or 4.

i tested a lot of maneuvers and not just the "send-a-cav-around" "tactic". the result is, its nearly useless to flank. i can easy and fast rout 1 side of ur army but u get in trouble if u fight the other side of ur enemy... i dont think that this a nice gameplay.

all together the moral is to high now. in mtw the moral already was very high but we did higher it as we needed it to have h2h units wich stay a chance vs the overpowered cav.

now we moved the florinamount over to VI, and we face a system wich fits the most weaker player as they never have to move properly. again inactivity is mostly better as acticity. i dont think we can find a solution in making units less tired by moving as the moral still will be the same. we need to lower moral and make some units less effectiv/dangerous, this will solve the problem.

i want that the chargebonuss get calculated by the % of the mens in that unit, so 40 - 100% 20-50% and so on, the charge bonus should juts be givven if u click direct on the to charged unit, not if u walk fast

we brougth many nice ideas in the last time and we tend to agree at the most points this makes me realy happy

again, the problem isnt the fatique, the problem is the high moral. but the system is balanced at this high moral, thatswhy many (me as well) say its good balanced, we need to change the whoel system, there isnt any other solution

and btw, i dont want that i can do mistakes but still can rally many units and fight again. i think if u do mistakes u should have lost

we cant change the players, we just can change the system.

and we can just change it if we get a laddersystem, with very hard rules, this will make the most play the system.

moving and skill shoudl eb decide the game, but thats not realy important right now.

koc

Puzz3D

05-20-2003, 14:17

removed

TosaInu

05-20-2003, 14:56

Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ May 17 2003,16:31)]Long John says the fatigue rate is same as in STW. Then why does it feel different? Has the morale penalty increased? Do units not recover up to the same levels they could in STW? It's been awhile so I do not remember.
It may feel different, since rain tires units faster.

A nice day in STW was nice, from start to end. That's not the case in MTW.

Kocmoc

05-20-2003, 14:58

i dont speak abou smaller moralcircles i didnt want them.
sorry must be my english

it shouldnt be too extrem, that if 1 unit rout the whole army routs, but if a unit rout it should cause massiv probs and at least it should del any of the moralsupports around. the next point is, units can rally too fast

i see many times that a unit did rout and a few secs later as u did turn ur chasing unit this unit rally and make ur turned unit rout. i mean if i rout the mainpart of the enemy, imo the game is over. but with the fast rally, caused by the high moral, many times i make him rout but he rally and than i rout.

i suggest here, a rally timelimit, lets say 20 secs till u can rally a unit. jsut example

yukki im more as willing to show u what i mean, i would like to play some testgames with u so u can see urself.

many games i flank my enemy and they dont even can reakt, so they forget theyr other flank, i make this 1 flank rout and my units get tired by doin this, after this, i have more units left but they are tired and his fresh less units are more worth as my more tired units. and if ur units chase the enemy down they are dissorganised, many times just 1 enemy cav can kick ur h2h units.

i think it shouldnt be too extrem but imo the units hold too long if u did some mistakes.

i still think of a better system and the system i suggested are actual the only solution.
1 more example, is the killing speed. actual with 15k, i would say the killing speed should be higher for some units, but if u look at the details u can easy see that this will just make the current system more complicated.

the units should rout faster, sometimes player send 1 knight to kill ur pavs, than it happens that u send 2 and get this cav, this means its clearly 1v2 but this knight can hold this unit dont rout why not? imo thsi unit should rout if it go down to 20 men or less, but many times this units fight till nearly the last men.

and this is about moral nothing else, its same like spears vs cav, even if u fight with ur cav the spears, the cav hold a long time. this means we jsut have long term fights where u never realy need to move properly.

we need systems where u can hit and return, where u can kill fast and where u can rout fast. if this dont change we lose the real soul of this game. this game had the possibility that u could win 1v2, u always could change the game ....now this is impossible. we go closer and closer to an arcade game as the moral becomes more and more unimportant.

i want the following, i want 3 player...everyone take the same setup and than i can win 1v2. i dont do it about a better army i do it about having more skill and move better.
this would perfect.

this we had in STW and MI.
like in the first days of MTW, thew system was like this

now u can kill ur enemy and if they are realy bad u can kill a second 1 after this

but thats a bad example a good example is that u face a palyer with a normal army, u can win it but u have not much left and this is never enougth to beat 1 more player

i dont want to speak anbout having "reserves" this is a "tactic" yes, but thats nothing about skill or moving or routing. and it dont help u to win vs 2 armys. we had campains where we played 2v3 and 1v3 with some different amount of cash, but even with lots of different cash this is never possible again.

i dont speak abotu moralcircles, i just think the support and lots of bonusses soil the game. thatswhy many of the Old Players, have a bad feeling and play less and less, many left already. and this is about all the points i spoke.

i understand the feeling of the new player and i see that the game is balanced at 15k, but actual we arent able to go back to 10k or less, as the game is very unbalanced at this amount of florin.

look i played 6-10 hours a day in STW and MI times, now i go online play 15 or 20 games in a row and win 98%, sure u still need some skill but i dont like how i win its near never a clear victory for me, its always a rally and go back, than fight again.

but i hit his flank he forgot units....he shoulnd even get half of his kills

koc

Kocmoc

05-20-2003, 15:15

tosa,

i agree about ur points but the fatique is just a problem with higher moral if u lower moral the fatique becomes less important. with the current standart 15k, the faique is bad yes.

this is 1 more example about what i speak, we need to balance the system for 10k max and than the fatique will be much better balancing at 10k means, -2 moral, yes back again, i wanted the +2 moral as we spoke about plaing with v0 units, still 10k is more as v0 units.

back to 10k with mtw moral, but cav less dangerous, shooters are still not ok but they are better, many unitprices need to be changed to make it balanced at 10k.
some units, liek spears need to be changed. i already suggested the changes we need imo.

a good example are the fearshooter look in 15k they are useless try it with 5 or 8k they do a much better job u can even stop a rush i tested this in mtw, in VI with +2 moral it will be different.

we absolut need fast cavkiller like anticav-cav and a fast spear. this slow 100 men spears are shit the swiss 96er http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
do a nice job, but they are too slow and the 100 men units turn to slow before they are in the position often the cav is already there. we need a 60 men standartunit (for every faction) wich is fastest h2h unit and eat a cav in a real short time but can hold vs other h2h units, jsut cant kill fast h2h unit, again : something like this 1(9) 8(15) and a normal moral. this units eats any cav and will do the job they made for. and it should be a fast unit, make them armour 1 or 2 just....so its a bit realistic for theyr speed, and shooter can counter that unit.

the anticav-cav should be like this: 1 (15) 2(15) normal moral, u wil lask " omg why 15 attack"? easy answer, the anticav should have any chargebonus maybe just 1 or 2 not more, this cav should just kill cav with the attackbonuss. if they had charge u could easy kill h2h units with the chargebonuss, thats a very important aspect

why we need this?

we need fast killer so ur mistakes get punished, if a cav can turned into spears without get realy hurt u can move and do mistakes how and where u like and u dont get punished for this.

koc

Kocmoc

05-20-2003, 15:21

combat power on the other flank.

sorry to tell u but u play just other as me, i never ever give u my other flank to attack. u will never be able to attack my "other flank", i move whole army left massiv in and right turne back to save time, even if u can react fast enougth u just can walk the same speed forward, wich i move my right flank back. i should win on my left and my right just 30% move back. its an easy maneuver and the most guys cant work vs this as theyr other falnk just can run the shortest way to the flank i fight already, they dont come in tiem and will be too late.

again, there isnt any weak flank

koc

Puzz3D

05-20-2003, 18:17

removed

Kocmoc

05-20-2003, 18:36

in my posts i dont care about new player
the player who like this game did learn it always, if i look back the last 3 years, many came and did learn it even as they go spoiled about the battlefield.

so i dont want a game, which fits new player as soon there wont come so many new players and just the oldtimers are left. i understand this point but i cant agree.

viking is extrem unbalanced, i believe u this example and but u could rally and won it...

its very hard for me to explain my whole ideas i never couldt write it all down. the moralcircles may be ok, they jsut dont work so good with the many bonusses from different units, like cav. i just know and we still can play it, that the first MTW without patch feeled best so far

look, i know many of the stats and many "numbers" but u and other know much more but i bet im much faster in exploiting the system and to get the feeling. and with my feeling i always was correct.

now i try to press my feelings in good words and bring examples and know there are problems. i realy want to play with u some games so i could show u and we could speak about this games, im sure it would help us both a lot.

i did tests vs good players, where i did setup my army and did nothing, they attacked me frontal and did flank and i won around 4 or 5 of 10 games. the battles i lost i killed about 500 mens i never should kill more than 100

Even a Dev did say once, higher florin = less skill.

with the current moral units stay forever and kill too much, its hard to rout ur enemy. sometimes i flank and bring 3 on left flank 4 of my center and 2 cav on left, and fight around 6 units, this units still kill extrem many of my mens, so i look at the green baar and notice everytime that im max at 60%.

again, inactivity dont get realy punished and thats very bad.

bad player will lose but do too much damage with theyr armys.

yes i said this about moralcirlces and i still have a bad feeling with it, but with a less dangerous cav im sure the circles are ok.

what u say about my unitsugesstions?

the spear and anticav-cav?

my suggestion for the game and the flrin is (very short version):

moral from mtw (-2 in vi)
cav less dangerous (actula with 15k its ok with less
florin it will be too good again)
10k fixed in comp games
no upgrades
just +1 valour (as valourupgrade)
a standart spear units (60 men; something like this
1(8) 8 (15)) with a normal moral)
an anticav-cav with very low charge, like 2 but good
melee vs cav 1(15) 3(15) less charge as u
cant use vs h2h units than, thatswhy 15
attack
pricechange many units will be unbalanced at 10k,
mostly to expensiv
a rallytime not sure if needed with lower moral, but
if needed, than something like 20 secs u
cant rally, or jsut if unit close to border

all together the 100 men units are realy dangerous and ofcourse all need to be tested, but this is the only chance to bring the skill back to the fields.

koc

Dionysus9

05-20-2003, 21:22

I've been playing at 10k and I prefer it, it sharpens the game and units rout when the line is breached.

With respect to fatigue, I think the biggest problem is the lack of a time-slider (time compression). Everyone says "just walk" or "rest", but in the end game we are talking about some major resting to prepare for the final assault. In a 4v4 with only 2 players left standing, you have 6 guys standing around [afraid to drop for fear of crashing the whole game] watching a handful of rag-tag units rest and walk around.

Walking is an important skill in battle, and one that is under-used by most, but at some point it just becomes tedious. Resting is just downright tedious without time-compression.

I understand that time compression is hard for the CPU to manage when there are combat attacks being made, shots being fired, and men dying. But couldn't CA make it so that when nothing but marching and resting is going on, we could compress time a bit? 200%?

I know almost every 4v4 player has been through times where they BEGGED for time compression.

I think it would reduce complaints about fatigue.

ElmarkOFear

05-20-2003, 22:40

Good ideas Kocmoc. The game needs an anti-cav cav unit and an anti-cav spear unit. I was wondering what you would think about separating the Valour upgrade for the arm and wep upgrades. This way you could upgrade a unit's morale by upgrading valour without the extra cost of the included wep and arm upgrade. There would be 3 separate upgrades possible then. Morale, Weapon, and Armour. You could then cheaply make a spear unit with high morale, that would hold against cav, yet not be a super spear unit able to kill swords as well.

Example: If a spear unit's base stats were:

Morale: 0
Attack: 5 (8)
Armor: 5 (8)

Morale could be upgraded to 8 or whatever limit we decide as the upper limit of morale. So what we have is the same fighting ability as before, but this unit is now able to withstand and hold for a longer period of time. By making a morale upgrade as a % of a unit's base cost, we would make the cheaper units usable as "holding" troops to slow an enemy down while the expensive elite units would have to pay a greater amount to make them the super units that we get now with val 4 upgrades to knights. I am not sure, but I think when you upgrade valour now, you get the +2 morale almost as a freebie. I will have to play around with this to make certain.

This would make unit selection a lot more interesting and would give everyone a greater chance of picking an army to counter a byz or lancer army. The lancers would still be killers, but a cheaper unit could slow it down enough to force the players to have to maneuver their cav better and not just use the click behind method.

Has anyone else considered the plus' and minuses concerning the taking out of +1arm and +1wep from a valour upgrade and make a valour upgrade just effect morale. I also wonder how hard it would be for the Programmers to do this? If not now, it might be considered for the Rome MP game.

Puzz3D

05-21-2003, 00:59

removed

ElmarkOFear

05-21-2003, 02:38

I thought that we had been advocating a separation of morale from wep and arm for a while now. I just never heard from anyone as to why that has not been implemented. Did any of the developers state why they did not want to do this? It seems to be a fairly simple thing to do, but maybe not. I would love to hear the reason. Maybe we should present our "wish list" as if we are single player gamers so our ideas would be given more precedence. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It is a shame the valour increase can't be separated out by the mod community.

Kocmoc

05-21-2003, 08:46

i love ur idea elm its very nice.

i still think, we shouldnt be able to higher the attack or defence of units. just the moral is ok. if we can change the attack and defence, we cant false the unitsabilitys.

yuuki, u played in stw and mi, and it was never usefull to have 2 pumped up units, it isnt useful in VI too
at the start u have a small chance to win but ur not able to win a whoel game with it as ur other units are jsut less good.

halberdiers are slow and dont kill a cav fast, and when u ever saw that a halberdier did come in time to kill a cav?
i never aw it, just if a cav moved to this unit or was fighting close to it.

i try to understand u and i think i see and can understand the most points u spoke about but i dont agree with all, with the most yes.

lower moral will be very nice, if we balance the units for this gameplay. Cav will be too strong for lower florin games. and ofcourse we cant just change prices, we have to change some of the melee abilitys as well.

but its clear that actual the gameplay is balanced but not much fun, it fit the unskilled players and thatswhy many like it.

koc

Puzz3D

05-21-2003, 12:57

removed

Kocmoc

05-21-2003, 13:17

Zitat[/b] ]Kocmoc,

I'm amazed that you don't see the effectiveness of pumping a few units in low morale games. It doesn't matter that the rest of your units are weak because all they are going to do is chase.

well, it seems u dont understadn it, this tell me that i have to stop here. As u havnt a chance with a few pumped untis vs my balanced army in a low florin game. we can easy test it if u like, than u can show me on the field how u will do this

i just remember, games in MI where guys used just 6 ashis with many upgrades, yes u can easy kill many at start, but just if u get many from me. this shows that u think in a certan way of playing and u dont think about ways to work vs this pumped units. sorry to tell u but ur just wrong

again, come online and show me how u will do this
as this dont work

i think we go back to the same point we was once, imo just ur opinion and ur style is correct u dont see that u can be wrong as well and here ur full wrong

this just shows one more time, u need some skill to work vs this few pumped units, than u will win as the rest of ur army will be very bad. so im absolut sure that it need more skill to play with and vs such pumped units.

Zitat[/b] ]Another place where we diverge about the game is that I'm concerned about the new player and you are not. It is unfortunate that some official ladder doesn't exist for the highly competitive players, but that was removed because it didn't work very well and had a bad affect on behavior in the foyer.

ah well, when u ever did care about new player?
u mean u did help them if they faced the problems online?
u did help them online?

i said i dont care about new player i mean if i write about the game i just dont think about them, as if someone want to play and go online he know ...he is a noob and get his ass kicked thats always like this in any online game.
everyone know this

so thats just not important
everyone will benifit from a better system even, if its a bit harder at the start its stupid to create a bad system just to help a few new player when they start.... so come on, thats jsut not a subject we should talk about

imo, u defend the system u like in any way, as u know urself that many things are bad and not the best u use words wich helps u ...u qoute what helps u u never use words and quotes from the devs if u dont like them, and u always say...oh they are so great and all is so nice...

some devs said " more florin means less skill", not the exatc words but thats the mainidea of what he did say
maybe quote such words as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

btw when u play online, than i would come and play u on any florin with any stats u want, than lets see what we can do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and u can show me the pumped units and the flanking.... and ofcourse i can show u some of my ideas

maybe ur surprised.....and maybe im surprised, lets see.

koc

Magyar Khan

05-21-2003, 18:55

pumped up units are usefull if it means u got more florin to spend than your enemy. if u both have same florin level and u start designing your army than its better that for teh purpose of fighting units have about teh same "pumps" which lead to all having about the same costs within a certain range. noone can convince me that 6 units of value of 1300 each (=7800) is worse than 4 unist of 800 and 2 units of 2300 each (=7800). i would always choose 6 of 1300 each.

perhaps teh only solution to create a good set of units for full competetive tactical games is to pick about 12-20 units from teh 100+ we have, mod their stats for 10k until they are all balanced between the others and we could end every discussion.

Tempiic

05-21-2003, 19:37

Unless you are able to keep the low florin units out of combat while keeping them close enough to enforce morale penalties on enemy army... morale needs to play a bigger role than actual unit capabilities though

Its as simple as routing chiv knights with mounted archers back in MTW

As for your solution... prepare to find little competition unless you make the mod widely accepted through community

ElmarkOFear

05-21-2003, 20:00

I think what we need to do is save replays and have a way to distribute them to prove what we have been seeing in games. I have seen a game where i routed an enemy unit, it routed through my guys and then rallied just behind my lines. Soon as it rallied, my whole army routed, because the enemy had a unit on my flank. I find something odd about that, and if I had saved the replay I could have showed you guys the problem. I will start saving replays and make an explanation for what to watch for each. Is there a way the .org could set up an archive of replays, with full explanations, of what to look for in spotting bugs etc? Might even give the developers motivation to look into MP bugs since they will have the visual proof to back it up.

Puzz3D

05-21-2003, 20:07

removed

Kocmoc

05-21-2003, 20:09

very good elm

look the problem we have here is, that yuuki said..." thast not possible" i told him exactly the same, but he didnt believe. he think his enemy always rout away from him....

so ..some jsut think they know all and never look realy on other aspects, it jsut count what they want ....

koc

PS happend to em too many times...

Kocmoc

05-21-2003, 20:15

well yukki, thats liek always ur solution
ur not able to come to a solution with other, it just count ur thoughts and if i offer u to play some games u jsut dont speak about.

yes u got it right the 1 k games was who will rout the first unit, and maybe u noticed that there wasnt any pumped up units?

i hope u cna rememeber as pumped up units are just not useful in low florin games

maybe u go and ask the better player, like amp and mag or the king of 1k games.... they will tell u the same.
as u said amazing, what realy is amazing....well its amazing that average play are so sure about hemself, thats jsut unbelievebal some average player act as they just tell the truth all the time.

so i agree with u once more, its waste of time to try to explain u this.....in ever post u jsut speak about u want to speak and not to speak about the points wich could bring u in trouble http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

so keep ur good work up

thx for all ur effort u know it all and i know nothing, now i know it....thx this did help me a lot

koc

Puzz3D

05-21-2003, 20:39

removed

shingenmitch2

05-21-2003, 21:25

Koc,
Average player? Was that called for? Hmm... high opinion of one's self to toss that around. I suppose you've never lost to that "average" player. Oh right, you have.

Kocmoc

05-22-2003, 07:09

i will stop but ofcourse i will asnwer ur question, but idoubt it wil lchaneg something.

its very hard to say how many kills u should get for playing bad. so i wont say a number here, but i wrote about my example.

setup an army in a normal formationa nd than do nothing
let u attack from a good player and u just watch it.
after this count the kills ur units did made.
plz do this tests and u will be surprised.

the kills u will see are much more than this inactiv player should get thats the basic-main-point, inactivity dont get punished, neither bad moving.

to ur other question, i dont know what u mean.
well i lost to many average player

andi didnt said that im so good
plz read again....

anyway as i got warned :P i stop it, many left and many will leave...so make the new player happy and lets see how they improve the gameplay....

koc

Kalle

05-22-2003, 09:53

Well, after having a very bad experience yesterday vs a hillcamping, artmassing, hosting noob at 50000 florins/player i think i start leaning more and more to agree with kocs thinking. Inactivity and poor gameplay should get punished.

Since this person hosted the game and i joined it is my own fault i guess, he can host the games he want and i dont need play them. And i would say nothing if it was not for his behavior. Rude, ignorant and so on.

It was a 2 vs 2 and the only reason he win is that my ally drop and i wanted to go on since i thought i could take them. Was very close but finally my men flee.

Then he starts bragging and bragging how good he is while he kills off my allies units that are in loose order with his massed bys inf. Look i can kill 2 enemies (i had routed his ally) a real good player i am. This is a good win for me. And so on.

That dude pissed me off and i think his gamestyle is a cowards and should get punished.

Kalle

shingenmitch2

05-22-2003, 13:44

Kalle?

What do you mean by punished?

If you join a game at 50000 (we say 12,000-15,000 is ideal), as an attacker, on a map that you know is up hill and continue on as attacker after your ally drops -- um... expect to lose. That has nothing to do with game balance.

That your opponant was a rude jerk is beside the point. (although its sad that someone behaves that way)

shingenmitch2

05-22-2003, 13:50

So Koc,

Are you an average player or above average? Answer that and you will know if you have high opinion of yourself.

Puzz3D

05-22-2003, 13:59

removed

Kocmoc

05-22-2003, 14:00

dont ask me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ask other or ...i personal dont can say how good i am, i just know i lose a lot....so maybe im below average.... ur better as me anyway....

koc

Kocmoc

05-22-2003, 14:15

yuuki, i realy want to stop this, i dont see any point in speak again and again about the same facts and we never reach a point where we agree realy or where we find a way together.

i just see that u pick some words and some infos outa my posts an, than u say .....u said :"...."
now yes

Zitat[/b] ]Another thing I don't understand is that I thought you were one of the players who said the tactic of throwing a lot of units at the enemy line and breaking it with morale bouses was a no skill tactic. The problem was said to be that the morale bonuses were too big. Well, none of the morale bonuses have been changed in VI, so that problem will come back at 10k. The only way to make the morale bonuses seem smaller and allow your line to hold better is to play the game at a little higher morale than mtw v1.1 was being played at.

ok, i will give u the point again. not that someone sa i didnt try it. (i see the trap http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

i said, indeed that the massiv units somewhere wich just can rout units are noskilled and bad , but the point was....

not just the fact that there are many units is the problem, the bigger problem is, that many did this frontal i mean 6 cav behind each other did rout units, and exactly this is no skill if u would flank and attack the rear, than it would be ok, but this never did happen, they just moved this cavs frontal in thats all. so plz read my posts and words carful....

but ur rigth, higher moral makesu more save vs such "tactics". so we need to change other things as just the florin.

this is 1 fact i did always mentioned, the florin is 1 aspect but not the important, if we lower florin we need to change lots of unitstats as well, thats clear.

so ofcourse, just to lower florin wont realy help.
i said this already in a few post, seems u didnt saw this
i wrote there: "the game is better balanced now at 15k, but if u use more or less it becomes unbalanced again, with less than 15k the cav becomes stronger again and the spears weaker"....this was my words....

so i do agree with u, i just dont know what we speak and disscus here now??? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

its al lclear imo, and btw u or kreallin said ,that the viking is very unbalanced anyway, so why u test it with a unbalanced system like the vikings? better test it with some christian factions or muslims, this factions are the most used anyway....

its liek the mongol addon, who ever played it?

in a few days or weeks, 99% of all games will be the normal factiona again, so better focus on this....thats just a suggestion ofcourse...

could u plz send me the replays or upload it for me, i want to see what u did there, so i may understand u better.

thx for any effort

koc

Aleborg

05-22-2003, 14:54

I think koc is one of the worst players i´ve ever seen on STW-MI, MTW-VI, he is really bad.

No skills, no ideas, nothing at all...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Kocmoc

05-22-2003, 14:58

u see shingen?

quite easy, im so pretty bad....even ale beat my ass all the day....well i stay much below an average player.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

spacecadet

05-22-2003, 15:08

I agree with Ale. Ive still got my 100% record against Kocmoc on VI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Space
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Kalle

05-22-2003, 15:46

Quote[/b] ]Kalle?

What do you mean by punished?

If you join a game at 50000 (we say 12,000-15,000 is ideal), as an attacker, on a map that you know is up hill and continue on as attacker after your ally drops -- um... expect to lose. That has nothing to do with game balance.

That your opponant was a rude jerk is beside the point. (although its sad that someone behaves that way)

Well first i did not know how the map looked before joining.

Second it has a bit to do with gamebalance since i attacked him rather good but his troops refuse to flee allthough hit from all kind of sides and his ally is also fleeing which should affect his men. What i mean with "punishment" is that he should have been routed to when he let me attack like that.

I do not mean punished as in sent to prison as i think u understand. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Kalle

CBR

05-22-2003, 16:07

Kalle: you did say it was a 2v2 50k game. That is really too much. I think most people would say that it will not be very balanced or at least units have too high morale in such games.

CBR

shingenmitch2

05-22-2003, 16:15

Ale, Koc

Ah, the sarcasm and humility is rampant now... too bad their was neither in that earlier post.

Kalle

05-22-2003, 16:31

I know it is to much, yes CBR. I joined the game for "fun" only. But it turned out not fun so i wish all games somehow would be balanced cuase then i would have routed him (i think).

No point in speak more of this now, why i wrote is mainly cause he upset me very much that player, but i have now slept and am calm again.

Kalle

CBR

05-22-2003, 16:51

Quote[/b] (Kalle @ May 22 2003,17:31)]...so i wish all games somehow would be balanced cuase then i would have routed him (i think).
Its alright http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Yes making a system were all people were forced to play with same amount of florins could be one way to do it.

Best thing would of course be that a game was balanced no matter what amount of florins is used...but I think that is pretty much impossible.

CBR

Puzz3D

05-22-2003, 17:48

removed

ErikJansen

05-22-2003, 18:12

Quote[/b] (CBR @ May 22 2003,10:07)]Kalle: you did say it was a 2v2 50k game. That is really too much. I think most people would say that it will not be very balanced or at least units have too high morale in such games.

CBR
Sorry for being a bit OT but...

50k would allow me to soup my Turcos to the max, which is fair. But I would then be afraid to use them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif hehe.

Kalle: I've wandered into games like that myself, and it turns out that more often than not the host is one of the nice fellas you described. My advice is to just let it go and let him have his fun, though make it a bit bitter by taunting him some in return http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

PS Dont be rude http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Kocmoc

05-22-2003, 19:56

im sorry puzz, ur rigth like always and im wrong....like always....its always the same end if we start to discuss...

did i say i want to rout an army and lose just 50 men? hu??? show me plz when i said this

i cant remember so please help me to understand where i wrote this

koc

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

05-22-2003, 20:47

Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ May 22 2003,12:12)]
Quote[/b] (CBR @ May 22 2003,10:07)]Kalle: you did say it was a 2v2 50k game. That is really too much. I think most people would say that it will not be very balanced or at least units have too high morale in such games.

CBR
Sorry for being a bit OT but...

50k would allow me to soup my Turcos to the max, which is fair. But I would then be afraid to use them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif hehe.
Ryu rout my turco with v0 peasant I need 50 K now

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Louis the Simurgh,

TosaInu

05-22-2003, 21:27

Kocmoc
It's understandable that people have problems with the logic and cosistency in your post.

This is a discussion forum, that means that one has an opinion and the other may have another.
There's no law that this must change after the opinions are voiced.

I've been following the discussions here for a while: many of your posts contain negative remarks aimed at one or the other, either blunt or veiled.

macajor

05-22-2003, 22:33

uh oh dummy throwing time

KOC 2 WEEKS

1dread1lahll

05-23-2003, 04:29

Ive not followed this post for some time (have putting in one fo the first) maggy stated that attackers suffer more fatigue that defenders (this is correst) i stated this some months ago Back then puzz stated that the fatigue was the same for men marching and men standing (and says so again in this post) this is incorrect, some information list may be in his posession that tells him this, but it is in error,....single player tests are of no value,.... I have reafirmed this tonight in a 2v2 (RTKGoed, as ally and ASINO MORTE as my opponent) I was required to march to full length of the map (steepinland6) my men lost 2 fatigue bars; I asked ASINO what his men lost (they did nothing to that point) They had lost ZERO to that point, as shooting battle got under way Asino begain to lose fatigue bars, I however was down to 2 in some units (my men did not recover any bars while resting in the shooting battle, but continued to lose them..... I would suggest Puzz that you conduct a test with your clan mates, have them camp while you march the length of the map, and have the report the condition of their men, seeing may make see.

Kocmoc

05-23-2003, 07:10

u have me watrned for this hu ho?
u act liek the law...so what u want?

on the other hand i named names here? if i did, im realy sorry as i try to follow the rules from the org....
again,im sorry if i did name names

koc

PS: i have an opinion and my opinion is free, i can this opinion post in a manner and according to the rules
if this isnt allowed.....well guess what we have than

PSS: like other post, hell some of the "allknowing-poster" are sometimes just wrong, but i hardly or "never" saw that they said, "oops yes i was wrong".....nono, just the other are wrong....

FearofNC

05-23-2003, 09:31

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ May 22 2003,08:59)]Kocmoc,

I just played a viking era 4v4 at 15k florins. I was on the right and my opponent opposite me was an experienced vet going all the way back to STW days. His left flank was open, so I moved 3 cav to that flank and attacked his back units: archers, cav and huscarl gen. He didn't move his front line inf units, and overall he made very little movement. He ended the game with 193 kills and 768 losses. I ended the game with 1067 kills and 328 losses. His army size was 892 and mine was 1040. I created a huge mass rout on that side which spead to his ally. I see you saying that players don't get punished for not moving and flanking doesn't work, but this guy certainly got punished and my flanking move devastated him.
if this is the battle you are refering to against me i think ur a bit crazy... i so dearly wish i had saved the replay now... so you could watch my noob ally and his mistakes.. the only reason you preformed your master flank manuver is becasue i only had half an army to face you... the stronger half was on the other side of the map trying to help ryu and kafir. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

ive been reading your back and forth argument with koc.. its a shame he cant use english like we can...

im also sick and tired of you saying you know what amp brought, and amp did this and amp did that... and always using him in your case studies... you dont know arron... and you dont know mike either...

if you want a game where you can "fight straight up, using good unit matchups to win" then go play praetorians.... i prefer total war..

a game in wich battlefield tatics rule the day... how many kills should a really poor general get???

20... maybe less

i played amp in a best of 5 set of 1k games recently... in viking era.. i won 2 of them... how many could you win yuuki?

maybe you should stop memorizing stats and start 1v1'ing with the big dogs.. but hey... if u cant run with the pack stay on the porch and keep barking...

*hugs koc*
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
i hear ya mike fight the power keep hope alive http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Kocmoc

05-23-2003, 10:15

thx NC http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

i know Aaron very well since a long time, and i know that he agree with many, if not all of my thougths.

yes, my english isnt that good so sometimes its just hard....

and ofcourse, its pretty hard to speak about skill, moves and tactics if some just are too bad. And are not able to understand what some can doin on the field.
i wont act as arrogant so i didnt mentioned this aspects i tryed to explain my ideas and houghts.

but i see in many posts that some just dont understand my moves and what i did, as they never can control there armys like others do.

so its a big difference, to know many stats and to bring this knowledge on the battlefield. like i always say, yes yuuki knows much more about stats and the mecanics but its an other question to convert this into battleskill and realy to understand and to exploit the system.

koc

Kocmoc

05-23-2003, 10:44

lol he made me "senior patron". omg
its like a kindergarden...

....yeah punish me, im so a bad boy

koc

FearofNC

05-23-2003, 11:09

http://www.fucyuman.com/ubb/graemlins/eyeball.gif

http://www.fucyuman.com/ubb/graemlins/nono.gif

Shahed

05-23-2003, 11:39

Koc maybe you should post in German, i think you would come across much better. Anyway most of the mainland Europeans here have a good notion of German, and you could get yourself across much more effectively.

Too bad if you take this as an insult.
It is not an insult just a suggestion.

Aleborg

05-23-2003, 11:45

lol, very nice argument there.

Keep talking, mike, u will be soon a very nice junior patron...

Kocmoc

05-23-2003, 13:00

sinan i dont take this as an insult. i think i understand u all and i know that u understand me

if u read ym post its clear what i say, sometimes u need to read twice but the maininfo u always understand, im jsut not able to use so many sarcasm or write ironical. i can do it in german, but than the guys who can understand german wont understand this in german, just the german nativ speaker.

the point is, if u take the time and read the posts from yuuki and me, u will see, that he just answer the point he like to answer any aspects wich bring him in trouble or will show the opposit of that what he say.........he dont asnwer and never will.

look at the game wich he used as example he said something about his kills and how great he played.....than u see what NC wrote

well, just read, there is nothing more to say about this

I just did wrote about my ideas and my thougths, i never said that this should be changed like i want i brougth some nice aspects and some did agree with me other not.
thats ok and its good it would be boring if we had all the same opinions.
And to clear it up, yes i think im better as the average play. call me arrogant or whatever, i dont go everywhere and tell this everyone....
We should think about this
how it comes that nearly all of the better player agree with many of my points?

and how can average or player with less skill write about many things they are not able to show at the battlefield.
sometimes i got the feeling, some didnt even understood as i wrote about some "moves", as they never be able to reproduce this on the field. so again, the 15k rigth now fits this player wich never was very good and never did realy good maneuvers.

i play with 15k as well, but its far away from the game i would love to play.

so i said ...let me stop....as its waste of time to explain guys who cant understand, it again and again. other understood it after my first post.....

no offence. im just tired of discussing this way.

koc

baz

05-23-2003, 13:49

this is unfortunate, we have spoke about this before and i dont think kocs posts are aimed as an attack at all .. koc is just very passionate about the game, he is simply trying to get this point across .. which he does, there is no need to get offended we are all grown up here, i hope http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

05-23-2003, 14:15

Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ May 23 2003,03:31)]
Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ May 22 2003,08:59)]Kocmoc,

I just played a viking era 4v4 at 15k florins. I was on the right and my opponent opposite me was an experienced vet going all the way back to STW days. His left flank was open, so I moved 3 cav to that flank and attacked his back units: archers, cav and huscarl gen. He didn't move his front line inf units, and overall he made very little movement. He ended the game with 193 kills and 768 losses. I ended the game with 1067 kills and 328 losses. His army size was 892 and mine was 1040. I created a huge mass rout on that side which spead to his ally. I see you saying that players don't get punished for not moving and flanking doesn't work, but this guy certainly got punished and my flanking move devastated him.
if this is the battle you are refering to against me i think ur a bit crazy... i so dearly wish i had saved the replay now... so you could watch my noob ally and his mistakes.. the only reason you preformed your master flank manuver is becasue i only had half an army to face you... the stronger half was on the other side of the map trying to help ryu and kafir. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
NC,

Yuuki is talking about another game. Not the one you refer to, which was a little mad (I guess I am to blame for it) and has, you are right, little 'academic' value.

The game you talked about was a 4v4 high 15 k and my berserk suicide made it strange. After this one we played a vik era 15K (and I don't think you were there... got to check logfile), and Yuuki did what he said he did to... another player. The number Yuuki gives fit with this other game, no the one you talked about.

Not the same game, I hope I have cleared the misunderstanding.

Louis the Simurgh,

Puzz3D

05-23-2003, 14:44

NC,

I was refering to a different game.

I'm not interested in playing the game at a level where you can rout and army and only loose 50 men. I have nothing to contribute to that discussion and have removed all my posts concerning it.

Lahll,

That test I did in custom indicated that walking units fatigue faster than standing units. What I said was that once resting they came to the same fatigue level of the units that had remained stationary. Your online experience seems consistent with my test results except that you say your men lost 2 bars and then continued to loose more bars while resting. That means they went to "very tired" while standing? Was this "fine day" with no rain? If your standing units went to "very tired" I would think the same would happen to the defender. Are you suggesting that the defender and attacker have different fatigue rates?

shingenmitch2

05-23-2003, 15:31

Quote (Puzz3D @ May 22 2003,08:59)
Kocmoc,
I just played a viking era 4v4 at 15k florins. I was on the right and my opponent opposite me was an experienced...

Who cares who this was against? Koc had made a point earlier that flanking skill wasn't effective anymore with the higher morale... Seems to me, Yuuk was simply giving an example were flanking DID make a huge difference -- that is all.

--------------
And BTW, what is all this Big Dog crap? From you NC? You're joking right?

CBR

05-23-2003, 17:48

Just did a few tests. Some units marching while others just standing. Marching units down to 2 bars then wait until they had same fatigue as standing units. Took about 22 min before they all had same fatigue for armour 1 units and the same for armour 6(upgraded) pavs. All tests on arid.

And that I find the real problem. I have to wait a long time before its equal again. Making a nice but long flanking maneuver is not very practical and enemy can even counter attack and have an advantage before fatigue is equal.

CBR

Puzz3D

05-23-2003, 19:22

I did a multiplayer fatigue test:

Steppe06, arid, fine day. Two spearmen units each set at the back of their zone. One (attacker) marches to just outside archer range (about 3 tiles) of the other unit (defender) and stops.

It took 6 minutes to march from the starting point to 3 tiles away from the other unit. The attacker was "quite fresh" when it got there, and the defender was "fresh". After 3 minutes the attacker recovered to "fresh". After another 10 minutes both attacker and defender dropped to "quite fresh" at the same time. This shows that the fatigue rates are the same for attacker and defender. After another 20 min both attacker and defender dropped to "quite tired". I didn't go further because I know from my custom tests that the units won't drop below "quite tired" in dry weather. This multiplayer test was consistent with custom battle tests that I've run.

The fatigue is the same as it was in STW, but the maps are bigger. More care is needed when moving your army over these large maps. Even so, I moved all the way across a large map and only lost 1 bar of fatigue. It's not really a problem for me in dry conditions.

FearofNC

05-23-2003, 19:27

im not joking at all... ive been watching puzz rake koc across the coals verbably using examples that just arent true.. kocs ideas are very good and many here agree with him but for some reson or another puzz feels those ideas are not even worth discussing.

if that battle wasnt the one i was in then im sry... went back and checked the battle logs and i had a huscarle gen with the same army size... could have swore he was refering to me...

and yes mitch... da BIG DAWGS... if u wanna talk the talk you should walk the walk... only in 1v1 can you truly test you skill... use "moves" like koc talks about..and if you play me in anything but 1v1... 99% of the time im bringing a fun army. i cant remember the last time i saw either of you hosting 1v1's... or for that matter using a weak army in multi...

now if you want to put all of your focus on one florin level and one army type, then learn all the best unit levels to take in order to click behind ur oppenent and win then more power too ya.

thats not the kind of game im interested in.

Puzz3D

05-23-2003, 19:31

NC,

All of my examples are true.

I edited the rest of this post and rephrase it. Statements like "the game is 2D" are contrary to my experience. I'll believe what I see happening in battles and my own or anyone's objective tests (those should always be independently corroberated) over a player's subjective opinion.

FearofNC

05-23-2003, 19:40

hehe if i had room in my signature i think id quote ya http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif its really pointless to continue with this discussion... i know i have alot of game knowlage, but at least i dont think im perfect

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

ur examples of amp using units are incorrect. amp uses every unit at every florin level... many times his army picking is random... yes random... you think his 1 cav 8 sword 7 spear cav is genious... i think its weak and amp was board..

Magyar Khan

05-23-2003, 20:06

whatever the facts for me stand, i march towards my enemy in a little curve to other edge of map, slightly uphill and i rout at impact. probably i had a few shooters more or bit weaker cav but routing on impact is different cake.

i seen it in more games, as my witness is true.

i dont wanna wait 20 min till the fatique bars are corrected or whatever i just hate routing on impact when i got the idea i did nothing wrong. lets assume i know how to move my army properly.

perhaps teh random factor in teh game is a bit dominant. all who test a bit know that when they show a test between units to another guy it somethimes work out totally different.

Puzz3D

05-23-2003, 20:17

NC,

AMP used single pumped units in STW 5k games that I was in to cause chain routs. Kocmoc is saying it's not effective. The lower in morale you go, the more effective it becomes. I didn't say that was the only techique he used. Kocmoc is the one who won't accept examples unless they are from players he considers top players which is the reason I mentioned AMP. Kocmoc discounted my experience in that 10k VI game where I said, "I didn't like the gameplay". That got him bullshit because I was no longer backing his proposal to make 10k the standard in VI. This isn't a case of me trying to force my opinion on everyone. The problem is that I disagreed with him.

Magyar,

The fatigue rate does favor the direct approach over the indirect strategy. The larger maps should benefit the indirect approach, but the fatigue works against it. I remember thinking when CA announced the larger maps in WE/MI that the fatigue should be re-optimized for the larger size. It wasn't, but we made the cav faster in WE/MI v1.02 which helped compensate for the large maps, although, it made the game more difficult to play as well. Now we have even larger maps in MTW, and the unit speeds are back to STW speeds. I don't think the fatigue is optimized for these larger maps. We did get a reduction on cav fatigue rate in the v1.1 patch which helped some. So much more could be done with the secondary ammo, fatigue and morale settings than simply dumbing down the game by turning the features off.

FearofNC

05-23-2003, 20:55

chain routs were the key to victory in stw... saying amp used 1 unit to achive this is probably true in one game... but the next he used something different... the point im making is that amp and his armies arent a reliable means of judging the effectivness of setup a or unit b or formation c..

"The problem is that I disagreed with him"

lots of people disagreed with koc... but only a few discounted his ideas compleatly. part of the challenge of tw for me is overcoming oppenents on their grounds... if you have a favorite florin amount that you like to play with... that what i want to beat you with.. those who host 99999 florin games often call me a cheater when they rout and the game is over in less than 3 minutes.

if you find 10k games too diffucult than perhaps you should play them more.. there is reward in overcoming challenge not climing the same hill in your backyard over and over again.

and when you are an expert at 10k games... then come and talk to us about the merits of them or the imbalances.. disagreeing with koc based on a few games "that i didnt like" is not a rational approach and really shows how low you will go to convince others of your "truths"

Puzz3D

05-23-2003, 21:13

NC,

I don't find 10k games too difficult. I don't like 10k games. All the old problems of MTW v1.1 15k resurface in VI v2.0 10k. I played over 1000 MTW v1.1 15k games. That's a lot more than a "few" games. How does the statement that I don't like 10k games compeletly discount Kocmoc's ideas? Kocmoc is the one making derogatory and sarcastic remarks about people who disagree with him.

FearofNC

05-23-2003, 21:31

fatuige is not the same as stw... maybe units tire the same but u have to compare stw maps to mtw large maps becasue of the scale of the units themselves... they used the about the same size increase on the units as they did the maps.

lowering the game to 10k and rebalancing would in effect, like koc puts forth, lower the impact of fatuige in vikings. he is correct puzz.... no doubt about it.

the good mp spear unit should be 60 men for many reasons... again koc is correct... 100 men units have a place in the game, but not as a top mp unit.

we do need an anti cav cav unit... and as koc added low in charge... again another positive additon to the conversation..

CBR

05-23-2003, 23:06

Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ May 23 2003,22:31)]fatuige is not the same as stw... maybe units tire the same but u have to compare stw maps to mtw large maps becasue of the scale of the units themselves... they used the about the same size increase on the units as they did the maps.
Huh what do you mean by that? That number of men in units effects fatigue ?

Quote[/b] ]we do need an anti cav cav unit... and as koc added low in charge... again another positive additon to the conversation..

Well some wants anti cav cav and some dont. I cant see the need for it. You are not getting it in a patch for VI (if we get a patch) and most likely not for RTW as balance between units will be different compared to MTW and CA, although making mistakes perhaps, tries to stick with the historical theme.

CBR

shingenmitch2

05-24-2003, 00:55

quote NC "and yes mitch... da BIG DAWGS... if u wanna talk the talk you should walk the walk... only in 1v1 can you truly test you skill... use "moves" like koc talks about..and if you play me in anything but 1v1... 99% of the time im bringing a fun army. i cant remember the last time i saw either of you hosting 1v1's... or for that matter using a weak army in multi..."
-------

So if you're a female Big Dawg... does that make you my BIATCH?

"only in 1v1 can you truly test you skill... "
That's why the clans have 3v3 tourney's regularly, because it shows no skill...

Convenient of you to blame most of your multi losses on "fun armies." And BTW I mess around quite a bit with "fun" armies particularly when a new patch comes out, and many times I go online after the bars and simply play drunk, but you never hear any BS excuses outta me, no "fake names" to test out a new trick in anonymity. If I lose, I lose -- and that happens plenty.

1v1? it bores, me but I was near the top of my ladder in the Dread/Master STW tourney before it died out and that included CosmicFrog, DaRealRuler, RageDevil, et. al. and I was never beaten competitively twice -- tho Elmo, of all people, has had his way with me in the past. Still, there is not a single player who can say he has not lost to me on multiple occasions, and lost bad. I don't give a crap what the excuse at the time was... There was a span of a month in MTW where our multi-team did not lose a single game in High and we took on all comers and clans

AND YET, I would never consider to dispairage another player's ability or have the over-inflated ego to claim to be a "Big Dawg..."

------------

And as for this present thread, Yuuk has done nothing more than attempt to point out the many inconsistencies in Koc's statements. It was Koc and you who started the chest-thumping and taking personal pot-shots.
--------

And for the record, I've long believed that units should not fatigue from simple walking or standing for that matter. I understand the reality logic of it, but in game terms I don't think it works so good.

Magyar Khan

05-24-2003, 01:01

does anyone have resources how fatique vs routpoint vs fightingpower

imo fatique should effect fightingpower more than moralelevels

i dunno how they are implemented now, all i can say the dont "feel" well, maybe they do for straightforward games but as said before marching units should NOT tire unless under harsh weatherconditions, but somethimes moving is more a relief than standing still.

Kalle

05-24-2003, 01:43

How about making it possible to buy another fatigue bar for some or all troops when u buy ur troops.

If u know u will move around to outflank ur opponent or if wanna have a slightly heavier army in desert - or whatever could be the reason - an option like this might be an alternative.

And yes i understand this will cuase other problems. The camper (if there is one in the game) obviosly then will have more money for weapons or whatever so i dont know how this will affect overall gamebalance.

Just an idea that popped into my head.

Kalle

1dread1lahll

05-24-2003, 02:03

Puzz (fatigue issue) map steepinland 06, arid summer no rain "fine day" lost 2fatigue bars on all units (16 units)
upon arrival . defender had to that point not moved , lost none, after some time my units lost more/defenders also lost some, attacker fatigue remained greater than defenders..... your test did not state weather your units were grouped. My experience was under actual game conditions where groups were used..... i rether liked maggys idea of a 'rest' command that would allow troops to regain all fatigue bars.... perhaps in "warring States Total War......

CBR

05-24-2003, 03:46

And plz someone try to make test using columns instead of more normal lines. Every time I make the tests I always see more fatigue.

Yuuki: from what I understand thats nearly 20 min before they are equal again right? I just speed up the time and could have lost a minute or 2 while pausing. But sounds like we got nearly same result.

lahll: yes groups can make it worse. If they bump into each other. I had one test where a couple of units kept getting stopped by the front units..then apparantly ran to try and gain their position, stopped again and ran etc.

Looks like marching takes skill too...and me who just likes to point and click sigh... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

CBR

shingenmitch2

05-24-2003, 04:04

I'd agree with Magy that it would probably be better if fatigue did not affect morale and just the fighting ability (which in and of itself has morale implications with casualty rates.)

---

Attacker (or mover) probably will always lose more fatigue at the point of combat because 1. maps are rarely perfectly flat, 2. days are rarely completely dry, 3. when they get close defender can rush and not give them recoup time. So although in even testing it may be true that levels will drop consistently, in a fluid game those conditions probably don't exist.

THAT SAID: perhaps fatigue imbalance is simply one of the risks we take when we choose to be an attacker/mover -- just like we give the defender the opportunity to stay on a hill ... this is not chess or checkers, but a war sim and in reality defense is the stronger form of combat -- so is it odd that defender get fatigue advantage?

CBR

05-24-2003, 04:23

Yes could say that but we are not talking forced marching nor very long distances. And forcing people to wait 20 min from game starts for marching and then resting before combat starts is hardly the greatest thing for gameplay. We dont see the problem that much in normal maps were both attacker and defender moves forward but we do see it a lot on the large maps.

I can only speak for myself but I do prefer to play on these large custom maps and I find it annoying to see fatigue have such an impact. I feel it hurts gameplay and cant even say its realistic.

CBR

1dread1lahll

05-24-2003, 04:57

agree with mitch and alos CBR...as attack we do accept certain disadvantages, but i do feel fatigue is a bit much, ide like to see a reduction on the ammount incurred while marching/standing, and a bit faster recovery rate while 'resting' , the maps for rome are to be rather larger than mtw (if not endless) the current fatigue rate will just not do there....

FearofNC

05-24-2003, 06:47

cbr: i find most everything you say to be fair and honest, and.. nothing but respect for ya.. to awnser your question, the scale im refering to is the actuall troops not the amount of men in the unit. remember how large kensi were compared to the rest of troops in stw? well the kensi is about the same as a regular maa troop now.. the entire scale of mtw is larger, not just the maps.

mitch:

lol ur bitch?? hahaha

"That's why the clans have 3v3 tourney's regularly, because it shows no skill..."

- ur reaching.. lol ... if thats what you want to believe than fine... i didnt say that nor did i imply it.. 1v1 is a whole different ball game. and yes... if you want to test your true skill.. you need to play 1v1.

"Convenient of you to blame most of your multi losses on "fun armies." "

i never "blamed" any of my losses on fun armies. this is a game... and when i play in multi i prefer to bring fun armies... makes it more of a challenge to me... even in serious 1v1 matches i bring a balanced army 9 times out of 10... still reaching...

"1v1? it bores me"
ok
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

the rest of that sounds like a sad attempt at convincing others how good u are... nothing to really respond too.. everyone beats everyone.. and yes you play enough games you will be victorious vs everyone sooner or later... but u dont play 1v1 mitch.. "Still, there is not a single player who can say he has not lost to me on multiple occasions" ... i have never lost to you in 1v1... never not a single time... i have competitivly played 1v1 since stw and there are still good players that i havent had a chance to battle in yet.. how could you , a player who never plays 1v1 beat them all ROFLMAO

"AND YET, I would never consider to dispairage another player's ability or have the over-inflated ego to claim to be a "Big Dawg...""

lol... did u realy did write that stament directly after you wrote the paragraph above it?.. me thinks you should proofread better. besides your entire post is an attempt to "disparage" me, full of bs and misquotes.

"And as for this present thread, Yuuk has done nothing more than attempt to point out the many inconsistencies in Koc's statements. It was Koc and you who started the chest-thumping and taking personal pot-shots."

i didnt post or even read anything in this topic until page 4, its ok if your mad at me... thats your choice, but if you post nonsense like this im going to fry you for it. all of you were already involved in your flame war b4 i decided to even read this thread. i saw everything with a fresh perspective all at once. you guys were bashing koc and were having fun doing it.. just becasue he cant come up with the right words to best explain his ideas doenst give you the right to treat him like he is stupid. lol reducing him to a junion patron.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif are you really that scared?

ok lets talk some truth here... how come anyone who disagreed with yuukis position left or was forced out of the beta team??

i like the quote "your not gonna get an anticav cav in vi"

agreed, how can i when yuuki controls what gets into the patch and what doesnt.. he isnt willing to listen to anyone

if it wasnt for his love of the spear unit and straight up fighting we wouldnt have had the mtw v1.0 screw up. the fact its time for that to end.. your crew has messed this game up since stw, and you attack anyone willing to try and fix it.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

ElmarkOFear

05-24-2003, 07:16

On these big maps it makes it difficult, with the current fatigue rate, for an attacker to cut off an army from the rest of his teammates. The fatigue rate makes it impossible to fight off any of those partner's armies once they figure out what you are up too. The smaller maps are not too bad for fatigue, since your movement is limited. I like the big hilly maps though where you can take a hill of importance to cull the enemy from his teammates. Currently, it is not a good idea to hurry to take a nice hill position.

TosaInu

05-24-2003, 09:47

Quote[/b] ] Kocmoc
i know Aaron very well since a long time, and i know that he agree with many, if not all of my thougths.

yes, my english isnt that good so sometimes its just hard....

and ofcourse, its pretty hard to speak about skill, moves and tactics if some just are too bad. And are not able to understand what some can doin on the field.
i wont act as arrogant so i didnt mentioned this aspects i tryed to explain my ideas and houghts.

but i see in many posts that some just dont understand my moves and what i did, as they never can control there armys like others do.

so its a big difference, to know many stats and to bring this knowledge on the battlefield. like i always say, yes yuuki knows much more about stats and the mecanics but its an other question to convert this into battleskill and realy to understand and to exploit the system.

koc

Kocmoc, you show your point, you want people to pick it up and then your same post contains an insult directed
to others. People don't like to be put down and will thus be reluctant to understand. I guess that you feel that now, don't you?

You talk about skill and no skill (or average). Each game requires different levels of skill. And people prefer the games that suit them best: based on moving, morale, their ability to master it/EXECUTE it on a computer, fun or anything else. Even if there's something like THE SKILL, other people don't have to be reminded about their inferiority, let alone over and over again.

If the VI stat does not match your expectations, then it's very easy to adjust and distribute new ones. VI stats are resident once installed and don't require a reboot or swap.
If off the box VI does not match your expectations (morale too high/low, archers too in-/effective, units too small/big, too whatever) gather around with likeminded/-skilled and make your stat. You can advertise your work in the forums (no rants, slurs, insults, n00b this vet that talk, openly or veiled) and the stats will be hosted like any other custom file.
Magyar already started a topic http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;t=7161 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=7161)
Is it the first time that this is discussed?

Are we helping CA here to identify problems and improve future releases, by arguing, flaming and insulting?
What do the forumrules state about flaming?
Are we contributing to a solid fanbase so better MP support will become more likely?
Are we actually encouraging CA coders (our only 'link' with the gamedesigners) to keep visiting?

Play your way and allow others to have theirs. MTW VI seems to easily allow that.

Quote[/b] ]NC
lowering the game to 10k and rebalancing would in effect, like koc puts forth, lower the impact of fatuige in vikings. he is correct puzz.... no doubt about it.

I understand that this actually reads: adjust morale and attrition (?) so that units rout before they tire.

How about this one: select units, deploy, hit escape and the units suffer near 0 fatigue.

Both statements may be true. The latter seems slightly absurd, but the former doesn't have to appeal other gamers.
What's a solution for you, doesn't have to be one for others.

Quote[/b] ]NC
i didnt say that nor did i imply it.. 1v1 is a whole different ball game.
True.

Quote[/b] ]NC
and yes... if you want to test your true skill.. you need to play 1v1.
True, if you want to test that kind of skill. Different ballgames, different skills.

Quote[/b] ]NC
ok lets talk some truth here... how come anyone who disagreed with yuukis position left or was forced out of the beta team??

i like the quote "your not gonna get an anticav cav in vi"

agreed, how can i when yuuki controls what gets into the patch and what doesnt.. he isnt willing to listen to anyone

ReadMe(Patch v1-02).txt
Beta test group

MizuYuuki
MizuTosaInu
MizuDoc
MizuEradoSan (http://erado.totalwar.org)
Obake
Magyar Khan
Kocmoc
MizuKraellin
Terazawa

The list seems composed in random order and no conclusions can be made by studying it.

Betatesters sign a Non Disclosure Agreement. It's sad to see how far some people dare to go in harassing and baiting.

Kocmoc

05-24-2003, 10:06

all is nice NC, i was there in this "team" and what the realy did fear was a rush.....like the ninja rush....
the point was and still is, that u just have to fear such a rush if u cant control ur army fast enought.

yuiki, ur example about amp are just a joke u use maybe 1 of 100 games as an example but u never mention the other 99 games so i can always go and use examples wich are maybe very rare...if they are true....

the other point is, and this is what i dont understand here.

u wrote in an other tread, that units never can rally behind ur mainline, the enemy routs always away from u

now comes elm and post the same, like i did.

plz plz plz, answer me this 1 question.
why this happend?

u act as u know everything and as u where always correct, now....u said this isnt possible, but somehow it happens to other too?

is it maybe possible that ur not always correct?
maybe ur wrong 1 time in about 100 of posts?

another point is, that ur examples are very suspect, i cant accept them as a real test i played u and i knwo how u play http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif , so i dont see, how u could exploit this game

and again, u false many of my words, some thing u say....wich i said are jsut not true.

as i brougth an example about my flanking, u said....."its clear ur other side was to weak, as u did overwight the attack side". look, exactly this is the point coz i will stop this, as u dont understand it. u jsut are not able to understand my move. as i said in anotehr post, u cnat attack this "weaker flank, as this flank move away from u....its about time.

u didnt understood what i wrote, as ur not able to create this maneuver(ofcourse this is just my opinion, i offered many times some testgames, maybe u would surprise me with some genius moves and just kick my ass,...who knows)

NC is complet correct here, u try to change what u like, and if someone brings some ideas, u dont even talk about this or when u did speak about some of my ideas?

u just attacked me as i said, that inactivity dont get realy punished and that, if u do massiv mistakes it doesnt realy matter.....if u play with 15k.

the gameplay u speak about just fit ur style, like u did everything to avoid a "rush" in the patch for mi
i spoke mostly to u yuuki and didnt refer to some of the other guys. i know how i can play, i know how other guys play, like AMP and i know how u play http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

and i didnt "left" the discussion as i saw that im not able to speak on....no i just left as i saw thats absolut not possible to explain guys who WONT understand and are just not able to understand.

koc

Kocmoc

05-24-2003, 10:33

i still feel pretty good yes i know there are ways to upload own patches...

yes and i understand and ful lagree with u everyone can play his own way, btw i never said the opossit of this

its just, we speak about many thing...but what is with some of the ideas i mentioned?
we never realy spoke about this, we just defended all our positions....sadly we didnt got forward, well it was me who offered some testgames i miss still the answer...
i miss the answer about the units i suggested, whats good...whats bad?

and sure, i never said that someon has to play 10k or anything else, everyone can do what he want, thats always so in our nice world.

btw, yes the Univeral Khan started a nice topic maybe there is no flaming.....

good times ahead, i feel tinky is coming.... lets see how we feel.....

btw tosa, thats very childich to activate the floodcontrol form e, but well i guess thats ur punishment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

luckyly its all democratic in the good world....

koc

Mithrandir

05-24-2003, 10:51

NC, I disagree with you too, like Tosa said different sorts of skill.
I feel that I do decent to good in a teamgame, but just mediocore or even bad in 1v1. Supporting allies or judging the whle situation is a skill too.

I got a question to kocmoc, probably pretty noob http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif :
What are the effects of a charge value, and if they're so overpowered (?) why doesnt an inactive army lose badly ? Or do stationary man get a charge bonus when fighting anyway ?

Crandaeolon

05-24-2003, 11:02

My take on the fatigue issue is still the same as in my first post, on first page. The designers try to simulate a larger battle than is actually happening, the devs have said so themselves. We feel that it's wrong because we don't see what we get. We see a small group of units (60 men) march few hundred metres and think: "Ah, a nice stroll around the countryside to get a little pre-battle exercise Very nice" But then the "big battle mechanics" kick in and the fatigue bars indicate a march of a few kilometres. And we say it feels wrong. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

And the little argument that's going on... it's sad, really. Not useful, not exciting, just sad. How about putting a stop on it instead of feeding the flames?

I bet we all have an idea of the ultimate mechanics for MTW. Well, it's not gonna happen unless we mod it. And, the mod is not gonna be a success if people won't play it, and it's fairly certain that no mod is going to take a majority of MP followers. The disagreements between players will ensure that a mod created by one group won't be played by a group that favors a different style. The devs know of these disagreements and they know they can't please everyone. They would probably stick to their design even if a majority of multiplayers demanded the _same_ mechanics changes. In the end, we're stuck with what we get. Wolves gotta go where the sheep are, and sheep play regular MTW/VI.

The l337 sk1llz argument is another ridiculous one. Of course some players are better than others. Some players also know more "secret tricks" than others (or they think they know... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif) I'm not accusing of anyone doing it, but a skilled player can sometimes "prove" points against a weaker player that wouldn't work against a stronger player. The different eras, factions and florin amounts will ensure that _no one_ is a master of everything... unless he knows that there's no spoon, of course... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Kocmoc

05-24-2003, 11:10

sorry mith, i always have to wait about 870 secs before i can post again....

charge: if a unit got 9 charge the charge get added to the attack in the first impact, so a good cav with 9 charge and an attack of 7, can get till 16 fast kills with the first hit. thats not the real problem.

the problem is, that unit get the chargebonuss, if they just move fast so u dont need to click on the unit wich they should attack, just select the cav (example) and click somewhere behind enemy units and ur cav get this chargebonuss ont he first unit they "hit". sometimes the cav can "move trougth enemy units and walk the enemy down, this is better as to chase them down u get much more kills as if uwould just "attack" this unit. this is why clicking behind is sometimes more dangerous as directclicking but its ofcourse much more easy to click many units behind ur enemy as to control the single units...

u cna buy a v1 alancav and try this....move the units behind a h2h units and if the alan is very close move them back, always 1 or 2 horses get into this h2h uit and kill between 5 and 10 mens of ur unit... im sure NC has 1 of such replay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

why an inactiv army sometimes dont lose and mostly get lots of kills.

first this army always stay close and get a lot of supportbonusses. second if the melee start soon in game, than this army didnt moved and is fresher as ur enemy.
third units wont be dissorganised.

4th ur shooter are always close, especially the pavs get forget in many games. but this untis are close, shoot and give support.
5th with a good setup (not widespread), this army cant get outnumbered, but can outnumber the enemy bit better.

5th units, like spears chase down automatical

6th some cav attack on hiw own and get chargebonuss for this

7th with my setup i did use, the normal units are splitted so the elite units are mixed and the normal units dont effect each other.

this are just a few mainpoints, there are more minorpoints.

sugessted an anticav-cav, just fro example.....with a very low chargebonuss

again, back to topic i just said, that if u lower the moral the fatique becomes less important and could be fine again, before some use examples of other player.... AMP and me agree at this point as well

i hope i could answer ur question

koc

Crandaeolon

05-24-2003, 11:11

Glor, the charge value is simply added to the attack rating for the first melee strike that a charging unit makes. A strike is made every second of combat, so the charge bonus applies only to the first combat second. Of course there are all these odd "charge-through" -bugs, but I don't know anything about those... honestly... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Edit: Lol, Koc posted while I was writing this. Sorry about the double info. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I believe Koc meant that an inactive army will lose, but the attacker will also lose too many men. I know what he means, one time when all players except me dropped from a 2vs2 I decided to have fun by destroying all other armies. I shot them from behind so their arbs couldn't shoot me, attacked from all sides, picked weakened units to kill, caused chainrouts and so on, but still lost a surprising amount of men. Routed 'em all though, got something like 2000 kills vs 450-500 casualties.

Magyar Khan

05-24-2003, 11:48

koc i see some yellow pixels bunching up under your avatar, is it my screen or something?

i saw my name popping up in teh beta test group, as clearly stated among these people i never felt to be a part of that group, neither did koc since the overall decisions were taking by teh mizu-gang and relatives. thats why we stepped out.

blaming and punishing koc is another way to provoke people of have the best future for the game in both gamplaying as competetive aspects. we know who control this house.

Tosa, u better stick to what u do best and that is keeping this "house" in the air. I see you still have problems to control your org-powers, and u know i am not only referring to the way u approach koc. Let the moderator do his job. If u ever had kids u would know u cant control teh whole house, somethimes u must accept they slap each others face.
Even if people shout or moan than a keen ear should be able to pick teh essence from it.
And if people who consider themselves as very wise feel offended by some posts why dont they just stay out?

----------------------------------------------------------

ok back to the subject before we are doomed to the animal forums. for me the topic is valuable.

i summarize it up

overall feeling: UNITS TIRE TOO FAST cuz we like big maps

possible solution: NO FATIQUE DURING NORMAL MARCH AN/OR ADDITIONAL REST BUTTON (lowered armour for duration of rest)

as stated by someone, fatigue should effect only fightingpower which is worked out in morale that way. i think thats a good way but too late for the VI-patch.

i think easiest way for the devs is, when units march in groups or on their own, DONT let fatique get affected.

for the DEVS...

DEVS ur allowed to use the GOTO programm statement for this...

YOUR SOURCE LOOKS LIKE THIS NOW

FOR ALLUNITACTIONS; CALL FATIQUECHECK

an EXAMPLE how to correct within fatiquecheck is

PROGRAMM SUB FATIQUECHECK
IF QUICKMARCH OR SHOOTING OR ROUTING or PURSUING is TRUE THEN
FATIQUE IS FATIQUE+0.023
ELSE
GOTO ENDFATIQUECHECK
ENDIF

{{other smart fatique controlling code}}

ENDFATIQUECHECK
END SUB

u may freely use this code

CBR

05-24-2003, 11:49

Cran: My memory might be bad but I think the units of a dropped player got some kind of bonus? I think I read it somewhere a long time ago or maybe my imagination?

CBR

Magyar Khan

05-24-2003, 11:52

sofar i didnt use the double click behind enemy units but if it gives the full bonus to unit against first unit it touched why would i risk a neat-click where i never reach teh pointed enemy unit? was this also the case in old shog?

and if i use it, how much does increase my chances to win a game? 10% or so? well now i know why even nc manages to win on rgular base http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif (sorry nc but people may start to believe we have assimilated u http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif).

Crandaeolon

05-24-2003, 12:03

Units of dropped players get a bonus? I don't remember anything like that... and Koc gave several good points why the stationary formation is somewhat effective. I think those are enough to explain.

FearofFucy

05-24-2003, 12:19

Well Magy the yellow pict I think means he is getting warned like NC for posting here and saying there mind. Wich I think is sad since every one should have the right to do it here in the .org. Of course in good language.

And yes that true Koc its easier to click with cav or any unit behinde enemy and get a bigger kill rate then to attac straight into them.

Quote[/b] ]was this also the case in old shog?

And no Magy it wasnt in old shogun as far as i know of.

Quote[/b] ]
ReadMe(Patch v1-02).txt
Beta test group

MizuYuuki
MizuTosaInu
MizuDoc
MizuEradoSan (http://erado.totalwar.org)
Obake
Magyar Khan
Kocmoc
MizuKraellin
Terazawa

Well from what I see here, there are 6 of the Mizu gang.

Quote[/b] ]ok lets talk some truth here... how come anyone who disagreed with yuukis position left or was forced out of the beta team??

Just keeps you wondering.
http://www.fucyuman.com/ubb/graemlins/wall.gif

http://www.fucyuman.com/ubb/graemlins/jawdrop.gif

Kocmoc

05-24-2003, 12:44

i wished a guy like elm or obake would "rule" the org, as we all di agree about they are the honourablest player around.....

and ofcourse they would be fair http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

koc

FearofNC

05-24-2003, 12:56

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

i cant say anything else... i have been warned http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

but thats ok... the truth needed telling... lets see if i can get banned from gamespy for telling the truth online... its a good thing ive never signed any non discloser agreements..

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

"I understand that this actually reads: adjust morale and attrition (?) so that units rout before they tire.

-you understand incorrectly, but not surprisingly. the idea is to make movement a viable tatic, the rout point need not be changed.

"How about this one: select units, deploy, hit escape and the units suffer near 0 fatigue."

how about it?? this is you childish statment not mine..
*hands tosa a chip*

"What's a solution for you, doesn't have to be one for others."

lol... that is so ironic.. and all this time it was mizu forcing their ideas of a perfect game on everyone else... you need to get your facts together before you came at me like that

"ReadMe(Patch v1-02).txt
Beta test group

MizuYuuki
MizuTosaInu
MizuDoc
MizuEradoSan (http://erado.totalwar.org)
Obake
Magyar Khan
Kocmoc
MizuKraellin
Terazawa

The list seems composed in random order and no conclusions can be made by studying it.

Betatesters sign a Non Disclosure Agreement. It's sad to see how far some people dare to go in harassing and baiting."

cant u read man 6 of the 9 testers were mizu since the discusion has obviously gone public.. this is the same argument that was going on during the beta ..Nothing has changed no single group should have had such a majority when game balance is at stake... and then deneying amp a spot in the beta??? AMP??? when that happened it was so clear how far things had been rigged it was pointless to try and say anything...

FearofNC

05-24-2003, 13:04

http://www.fucyuman.com/ubb/graemlins/vomit.gif

AMPage

05-24-2003, 13:08

Yes Kocmoc, i agree, if moral is lower than fatigue isn't as important cause units won't fight as long, and the longer units fight the more they tire. Also, it dose seem like units march slower in mtw, but maybe it's just all those armored units. Also, bigger unit sizes makes more killin that has to been done, which also effects fatigue, bah i miss the good old days with the standard 60 unit size in stw. I think also that small unit sizes fatigue faster is cause thier whole unit is most likely fighting, unlike a 60 or 100 unit size unit, when troops bunch up behind each other. I think it's because troops fatigue faster based as a whole, if every troop or most are fighting, not waiting in line behind other troops, so that unit will fatigue faster, like the kensai, i'm not sure though.

For charge bouses, i think it would be better if the one who clicks behind the enemy troops, the enemy units get 1st strike before the one who just clicked behind, that's if his oppenant clicked to attack.

The clicking behind and not ordering an attack, dosn't work well vs some units. An example would be someone who double clicks his chiv knights behind some chiv foot knights, the chiv foot knights won't get hurt as bad or tear up the knights.

For double clicking behind units, the sideway swipe works best.

For fatigue i think there should be 3 speeds. Marching where you don't lose any stamina, depending on terrain and etc. Quick march where you fatigue at a slow rate. Running, charging, and fighting where you fatigue quite fast.

It should be something like in praetorains another game i play. Each unit has a number of stamina points from like 1,000 to 5,000, depending on the unit if it's a cav, the horse, and foot troops from peasants to elite, the better trained the more points for fatigue. Once a unit reaches 0 you can only march and you gain points slowly by marching and even faster by standing and you can add maggy's idea of resting and units gain points much faster. So, would be best to do away with theses bars and 20mins of resting just for 1 bar.

Some of my ideas and other peoples ideas are quite old ones. My list i made here months ago had many helpful ideas aswell as many others.

Like Kocmoc's poll on should we have a ranking system or not and people are talking about what type of ranking system we need to have. My list months ago had some very good ideas on that too.

The same with a online stat swapper, that wasn't my idea, but it would be the only real good way to get people playing each others mods.

It's all really up to the devs how much work they wanna put into it. All we can do is give ideas and talk about and just sit and hope each new total war addes one. At the rate things are moving, we aren't getting anything. I mean we still have the scroll bar bug in mtw:vi, which existed in stw.

Maybe they are gonna surprise us in R:TW giving us everything or almost everything we asked for. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

We need a pin up post, where we list things needed or we wish to have for R:TW

Kocmoc

05-24-2003, 13:10

Zitat[/b] ] its a good thing ive never signed any non discloser agreements

the good thing here is, i was twice in that group, the frist time i did fax the agreement, the second time not....

so i will follow the agreement and dont speak abotu the first time.....

yes, a small group decide about a big group any points wich was suggested from other at this forum, got ignored or was bad/not accepted by them. So i ask me if they realy reflect our community? not that we all agree about any points we made. but we found some, where we did agree....

in many of our posts, elm, amp, seljuk, baz...and many more, made good suggestions and brougth nice ideas....whats with this ideas? how it can be possible that just a few decide about us all? its not democratic

so its nice to know that 1 is telling us, that an anticav-cav never will be implented by them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

i dont like what happen here This is not fair at all
and to punish us, when we start to speak against this is a joke such guys shouldnt be in such positions

koc

Magyar Khan

05-24-2003, 13:19

back to the topic as if its clear that most people in here know how the fork fits in the handle (freely translated from dutch language)

so i will use the doubleclick tonite a while to see if i get better results. funny but now i realise why i lost some games vs someundercovervetsofwhomididactuallyknowtheirnamesbuttheyareexcellentplayersanywaysoitdidn
treallymattered

if u have have 2 and 2 knights on teh flank and upgrades are the same then u expect similar outcomes when sides clashes. i mostly pointed at teh randomfactor of th mechanics when i lost my flanks who are similar.

imo chargebonusses should only count for a valid click and reaching the targetted destination unit.

another thing in this case is that somethimes i get the feeling if in a certain close combat bunch of units when u select them all and keep clicking on enemy u get an advantage as if the programm makes tests everytime u click as well, perhaps even looking at more modifiers than when they are engaged in combat and leave them alone.....

FearofNC

05-24-2003, 13:19

15 minute flood control???

lol thats evil

http://www.fucyuman.com/ubb/graemlins/EVILLE.gif

im only at 91 seconds http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Magyar Khan

05-24-2003, 13:22

amp it wasnt not mine idea, i dunno who said it some months ago. we better conclude that all good points should be collected for future use.

we are discussing here about a simple thing like fatiquerates.

i wonder how bad will teh game be if we skip fatique from optionscreen. any ideas?

FearofNC

05-24-2003, 13:23

maybe i go switch to one of my other junior member names.. no flood control there and a brand new supply of chips to use up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

if you want koc u can borrow one of 5 back up org names ... the last round of banning and what not made me prepare for the future http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Mithrandir

05-24-2003, 13:42

ok, enough talk about the punishments already http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif.

I knew about the clicking behind koc, and I suspected the use of chargevalues, but thanks.

Clicking behind works best ,imho, if just half the unit actually swipes, so that the center guy doesnt get cluttered up in the fight...

I think that if 2 knights units attack eachother head on, and unit A was clicked behind unit B, which was ordered a direct attack, A will lose badly, it seems that way to me in a few games...

edit : quite funny to see such paranoia amongst the clans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Magyar Khan

05-24-2003, 13:45

dont ask us to use your passowrds nc, i just bought them for an high price on the TWBM (total wars black market) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

for readers notice, koc and me wre in teh beta-group for purposes of our names and influences outside teh group. its easier for teh beta-testers and teh gameinstitute to launch a patch which is patron-approved. at that time we left isuggested spoon and or amp to be added. but spoon is a mizu now, i think w ecan still safe him tho http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif (joke)

but nc can i pursua u to go back to teh topic? it would be sad if this good discussion ends in clsing teh thread. i got the idea good points are thrown in and should be discussed.

a discussion is a way of communication, but there are no rules that u have to listen to what others say. ofcourse if a side gets the idea that they are not heard than u got decide to end it. i also try to be active at the warcraft forum but their moderators are even more rude than i was in my youngest days. teh funny thing is that teh result for their approach is about teh same. after all teh majority just want to see new goodies, hypng wallpapers and trailers.

to quote someone, its easier to make new things than to fix bad ones.

amps idea is good as well, 3 stages of moving all interacting differently towards fatique

AMPage

05-24-2003, 13:48

Oh, my bad mag. Well whoever brought it up, it's a nice idea.

Yea Mag just add what i said for fatigue and it's all good problem sloved http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Magyar Khan

05-24-2003, 15:01

hi Gil, hows Sarah? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

baz

05-24-2003, 17:51

this must be a good read if you work in the CA office http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

longjohn2

05-24-2003, 22:30

If fatigue is a problem on big maps, why not give the attacker a slight florin advantage to compensate. The system was designed for the normal size maps, so may not be best balanced for large ones.
I can see that you might take a bit more fatigue if marching in groups, as sometimes units have to run a bit to keep in position. More so if you turn a lot, or march over steep hills, through woods etc.

CBR

05-24-2003, 23:05

Well first of all what should that slight increase be? 5, 10,20%. Its difficult to agree on the right amount as it can be difficult to find out how much the fatigue means in combat power.

And it will mean the defenders are forced to play defensive as they cant do much marching or else they will have same fatigue as attackers and less money for units.

If I really want to win a battle I will spend the time needed to recover the fatigue..10-15 minutes spent on just standing still is not the greatest thing to do.

So IMO giving attackers more money is not a very good solution.

There are several causes for fatigue and marching is just one of them. Changing marching fatigue will not have a big impact on small maps anyway. You gain lots of fatigue by running/pursuing and combat and long battles in harsh climate causes fatigue too.

Marching fatigue is just part of the overall system and any changes to that is not a drastic change IMO.

CBR

Magyar Khan

05-24-2003, 23:06

i just decided to stick to flat maps, also a reasonable solution http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Aelwyn

05-25-2003, 00:51

I don't think its too much of a problem in the desert or winter battles, as others have said, fatigue is what you can expect, but I just played a game in which my normal archers, at v4 without any armour upgrades, lost a bar of fatigue marching from my deployment zone, to about the top left of my right allies' deployment zone. Granted it was slightly raining, but that just seems a bit much. No running, hadn't gone uphill yet, just simple marching however far that was.

FearSimbol

05-25-2003, 00:56

Well that hapend when the beta test group is not balanced, then you got a unbalanced Game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif.

This si just my opinion, i think Beta Group must have all king of players, Fast player, Slows Players, Good PLayers, Bad Players, Clan players, Ronin PLayers.

A beta test is not only to trie discover a BUG. is to "TEST" game stuff, so if the besta group is only one kind of players you will have stuff in the game that do you not test.

Mizu Clan play a lot misile army, and dont like much cavs. But we the Fears love cavs, hope you see my point now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

BTW i ask to join Beta Tester to Mizu, i am still waiting. And BTW i am a IT manager, so i know how to test Software. BTW i am a computer programer since my 15 years old and i have 26. So i think i could be a good Beta tester. I am wondering why i dont get in....

About Warning to Nc, apologise for my words but... THAT IS BULLSHIT it is not democracy? or this is a Comunits forum system? so i cant express the true? or what i think? comon.

About Fatigue, maybe is the same from STW, but i really think if you make a new version of a game it have to be better not same as before and few improvements, Gams could be more fun if you can rest more faster. Many times in a 4v4 games you see players waiting for rest like 10 minutes comon that is boring we like games cause they make you get fun, not wait out there for get 2 bars of stamina

shingenmitch2

05-25-2003, 06:24

Simbol -- I don't think any beta testing is happening now. If that list was for the beta on the Patch for MTW, I was part of that as well. As I recall not much of what any beta tester suggested was implemented and, AFAIK, CA was primarily looking for major flaws -- BUGs -- and not tweaking for simple balance.

AMP -- If lowering morale lessens fatigue because units are routing faster, wouldn't units routing too fast because of the low morale then become the problem?

Magy -- I thought that the cav swipe was pretty well known... at least as well as the foward "L" formation flank/morale hit was in STW.

NC -- You're right, I don't think I've ever played you 1v1... I was including ALL games I've played, which is primarily multies since MI, in which case we have been matched up across from each other and you've sent me packing and I've sent you packing. But, yes I'm sure it was either my ally's success/help or opponent's ally's failure/lack of help that made difference in those games... How does that Seinfeld joke go... yada, yada, yada...

AMPage

05-25-2003, 07:09

mitch -- What are you talking about? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Kocmoc

05-25-2003, 10:25

thats what i mean aaron, some dont undersand it

thats a waste of time.

koc

Orda Khan

05-25-2003, 11:13

My men get tired when they march..............So what??

I've just received notification that my vacation has been messed up That's the sort of issues I worry about.

..........Orda

Kansuke

05-25-2003, 13:23

Howl All,

Well Orda its not like you Sorry to here about your vacation problems. So why did you bother to post at all.

The Universal Khan has made a valid point, it helps if others are aware of it.

Kansuke

Magyar Khan

05-25-2003, 13:31

mitch, till recently i was under the impression (thinking as a simple programmer) that u get only a chargebonus if u point AT a unit, not behind enemy somehwhere.

i can imagine a commander gives order to charge, or straightforward or at a certain target.

if it is straightforward than it should be straight....forward and in this case the bonus should be much less cuz in such a charge the unit become more disordered/loose than in the other charge. a suggestion could be if doubleclcked behind enemy unit the chargebonus is reduced.

yesterday i still forgot to test it online, its an automatisme that i click on teh enemy for each unit.

but i asked it many times:

when some units are involved in fighting some other enemy units and u elect these units all and keep c;licking on the enemy do teh programm calculate everytime u click certain bonusses so this massclicking is more efefctive than sitting and wait?

and

when it comes to morale calculations do each individual soldier count for who is behind the enemyranks or the guy with teh banner or the unitsaverage or the spot where u clicked?

i still got the feeling something in teh mechanics is odd, referring to the socalled "lol"-battles. batt;les where against all odds the outcome swaps between sides several times in the game.

Crandaeolon

05-25-2003, 13:48

Magy, I'm not 100% sure but I don't believe that units already in hand-to-hand get "free" charge bonuses if you keep clicking the mouse. I tried it a couple of times when trying out Skom's stats, couldn't find a difference. The combat animation doesn't stop or cut when you give a charge order and there wasn't any real difference in killrates.

About morale calculations, I'm pretty sure that only the flags count. Individual soldiers behind the lines get attack bonuses though, and this may result in a "losing" morale penalty that the wrapped-around unit wouldn't get otherwise.

Kanuni

05-25-2003, 15:05

I don't think the units can get free charge bonuses like that. As far as I know "the units need to be running in charge speed" (which is a faster speed then marching quickly) to get a charge bonus. So because the units won't be in charge speed while fighting I don't think that the the units will get a charge bonus.

I think a dev had confirmed this "charge speed" issue, however assuming this is correct I just can't understand how cav. will get a charge bonus if you double click at a point beyond the unit. I guess they automatically change to charging mode just seconds before the contact http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Tempiic

05-25-2003, 15:13

Quote[/b] (Kanuni @ May 25 2003,16:05)]I think a dev had confirmed this "charge speed" issue, however assuming this is correct I just can't understand how cav. will get a charge bonus if you double click at a point beyond the unit. I guess they automatically change to charging mode just seconds before the contact http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I think the being-impetious-status, which is found on many knights, could be responsible for getting the charge bonus when simply marching (quickly) into an enemy unit...

1dread1lahll

05-25-2003, 15:36

charge speed is different than run speed, charge only occurrs when a uint is ordered to attack an enemy unit. I cant remember where I read it but I recall that in order to get to charge speed (and bonus) you must be traveling in a stright line for 3 secounds before impact with enemy before bonus is allowed, thus getting RIGHT behind enemy and double clicking does not give you the charge bonus.
Double clicking on ground behind enemy will not give bonus either, as men are marching quickly rather than moving at "charging" speed..

Puzz3D

05-25-2003, 15:45

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ May 23 2003,13:22)]Steppe06, arid, fine day. Two spearmen units each set at the back of their zone. One (attacker) marches to just outside archer range (about 3 tiles) of the other unit (defender) and stops.

It took 6 minutes to march from the starting point to 3 tiles away from the other unit. The attacker was "quite fresh" when it got there, and the defender was "fresh". After 3 minutes the attacker recovered to "fresh".
Lahll,

It didn't take 20 min to recover. It took 3 min to get back into the "fresh" range. CBR has also seen recovery of fatigue in the tests he's done.

In a post, LongJohn has backed up my opinion that fatigue wasn't optimized for the large maps. It's no surprise to me that marching fatigue "feels" worse in MTW since the maps are bigger.

NC,

The WE/MI v1.02 beta was the only time game balance was determined by communty members in an official patch. I thought that beta team should have been larger, but it wasn't up to me. I'm glad LongJohn returned to CA because it's better for him to set the game balance. LongJohn balanced STW and MTW, and they are both better than WE/MI v1.02. The unofficial WE/MI v1.03 was an effort by about 10 people, including AMP and many other non-mizu, to improve the game balance of v1.02.

I've never had any comunication with CA except right here on this board. You attribute to me powers that I don't have. I'm post my personal opinons here like everyone else, and I also post some test results from time to time. That seems to cause some people to go ballistic.

The MTW v1.1 beta was a bug hunt. It wasn't a re-balance effort. When certain players realized that, they quit the team and left the rest of us with more work. There hasn't been any community beta team tesing since then. Also, my comment that there will be no anti-cav cavalry unit was a blunt rephrasing of something that CA posted here 6 months ago. That idea was already run by them in this forum, and they declined to do it.

Crandaeolon

05-25-2003, 15:51

This straight from horsie's mouth... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

(Longjohn's input into a discussion about the effectiveness of the click-behind charge in the VI Multiplayer feedback thread)

Quote[/b] ]Running units do get the same charge bonus as charging units, and should by and large have the same effect. The idea behind this was to allow a bit more control of where a unit hits, or to allow one unit to hit more than one enemy. I can see that you might get some extra wrapping round effects vs isolated narrower units, but otherwise I would expect the combat to go the same way whether a unit charged or ran in.

Edit: IMO this should be fixed so that only units moving at their "charge speed" would get the full charge bonus. Units will move at "charge speed" only if they are ordered to charge by doubleclicking on a target unit. (There is a way to duplicate the "click-behind" charge even with this system, though it's harder and offers less control.)

shingenmitch2

05-25-2003, 16:10

AMP -- I was just responding with an honest question to this...

"AMPage
Knight
HOF Award 2002
Group: Junior Member
Posts: 173
Joined: Jan. 2002
spring city,pa,usa Posted: May 24 2003,07:08
Yes Kocmoc, i agree, if moral is lower than fatigue isn't as important cause units won't fight as long, and the longer units fight the more they tire."

--------------------
Magy, you are absolutely correct that it is not an "intuitive" effect. I'm truly stunned that finding yet a new glitch has left you surprised--and I'm not trying to be nasty, sarcastic or anything. How much in this game has ever been intuitive? The fact that in STW, I couldn't bend back a flank to deny it to the enemy(as is a viable military tactic) as it would, instead, make my ENTIRE army think that they were out-flanked was ridiculous and not intuitive at all. Or the fact that I could take a peasant and bump it up to H9 and suddenly it doesn't behave as a peasant and became a super ground-pounder (the whole Honor = morale + Attack/Def) is yet another example.

---------------
KOC - Yes, Koc you're ever the polite peace maker, but I guess I'm one of those that "just don't get it." Whatever IT is...

The problem you talk about -- the standing or "dropped" army that then kills too many of your troops after you have already defeated an army. This effect was -- with all the same bonuses to the stationary army -- was occuring in every version of Total War games since STW. BUT in MTW/VI it SEEMS stronger because of the multiple rout paths for defeated armies. This means that your entire army must expend more energy chasing down the 1st or 2nd army you defeated (you can't just send 1 unit to run the lot them of off board) so that when you finally go back to kill the "dead" army, your army as a whole is more tired in MTW/VI than it would have been in STW/MI. This gives the appearance that the MTW/VI standing army is somehow tougher or that fatigue is somehow different than in the past.

Is there a greater impact because of this fatigue, yes, because more of your units are near exhaustion because you had to use more and they had to run further to rout the initial armies. But I'd argue that this is not neccessarily a bad thing or an imbalance, just an adjustment we all must make to our game.

longjohn2

05-25-2003, 16:47

shingenmitch2, refusing you flank works perfectly well in both STW and MTW. There is no army flanking effect. Each individual unit decides whether its flanks are vulnerable. If there is a friendly unit echeloned a little way back, it will count as protecting the flank.

Example. A B and C are your units, e is an enemy

A e
B
C

B protects A's flank. A does not suffer a morale penalty
C protects B's flank. B does not suffer a morale penalty
C's flank is unprotected. Whether it suffers a penalty or not depends on the exact position of e. If e moves further round the flank, C will at some stage start to suffer a morale penalty for being outflanked.

shingenmitch2

05-25-2003, 16:52

Longjohn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I think this is the effect :

XXXXX
YYYYYY X
Y X

The "Y" army, in STW, was put at some type of morale disadvantage. It was a tactic used by many attackers to be the "X" army because invariablly 'Y" would rout first. "Y" should have been fine because its flank is covered, but this right-angle bend-back would kill them. My guess is that a unit near the angle would feel flanked, even though it was not, it would rout before the enemy in front of it and a cascade rout would then occur causing army collapse

longjohn2

05-25-2003, 16:55

To anyone waiting twenty minutes to recover fatigue, my advice is not to bother. The fatigue recovery rate depends on how tired you are, so exhausted units recover back to tired much faster than tired ones recover to quite tired.
This means that you wait a long time to recover only a small amount of fatigue. A few seconds of fighting will quickly wipe this out. Given that in a long battle the defender's units will have dropped to almost quite tired even if they've done nothing at all, the difference between an attackers tired units, and a defender's quite tired ones will quickly disappear once battle is joined again.

Puzz3D

05-25-2003, 17:05

Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ May 25 2003,09:51)]Edit: IMO this should be fixed so that only units moving at their "charge speed" would get the full charge bonus. Units will move at "charge speed" only if they are ordered to charge by doubleclicking on a target unit. (There is a way to duplicate the "click-behind" charge even with this system, though it's harder and offers less control.)
Crand,

The Strategy Guide indicates that right now it's a simple momentum threshold above which you get the charge and below which you don't. Since momentum can be lost in small increments, I guess a charging unit might maintain it's charge longer than a running unit since charge speed is higher than runnig speed. Having a gradient on charge proportional to momentum would be a nice enhancement as would having a gradient on morale bonuses proportional to distance. In STW, you would loose the charge even when at charge speed if you happened to hit a unit you didn't click on which seemed a bit strange as well.

CBR

05-25-2003, 17:35

The 20 minutes that has been mentioned is not just to recover fatigue but to have same amount of fatigue as defender. If I dont wait and recover some fatigue I might end up attacking with units down 2 bars while defender still has 4.

Yes the defender is closer to 3 bars than in the start of the battle but combat will start with attacker having -2 attack and next step is losing another bar and have a total of -3 atk, -1 def and -3 morale. Even with defender losing the first bar because of combat the attacker still has a big disadvantage.

CBR

Puzz3D

05-25-2003, 17:51

CBR,

In my test, it didn't take 20 min to have same fatigue as defender after walking for 6 min.

Nowake

05-25-2003, 18:04

Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ May 17 2003,15:40)]I'll just point out that armour shouldn't make a difference to fatigue in good weather non desert battles.
The only exception being those very heavily armoured units that move slowly. It's also the same rate it was in STW.
We all know about Agincourt ... the weather was good, but the land was covered with mudd.

CBR

05-25-2003, 18:11

In my tests I walked my men down to 2 bars and then waited until the standing and marching units had same fatigue. That always took about 20 minutes.

I have seen units go down to 2 bars when playing on large maps. Some of that was caused by column formation, bumbing into each other and hills but I could easily have marched even longer trying to gain the flanking position I wanted.

So down to 2 bars is my "standard" for longer marches on a large map. That will not happen in all maps and battles but that depends on situation. So yes it might be considered a bit extreme but I like to have the option to outflank and outmaneuver my enemy and that means you gain too much fatigue IMO

CBR

Puzz3D

05-25-2003, 18:33

Mitch,

The bending back of your line is a problem in real battles because the unit at the corner is more exposed. I think the game models that pretty nicely. It's actually just a geometric effect because the corner unit can be attacked by two enemy units. If the supporting Y unit tries to stop the double attack, it gets flanked by the forward enemy unit. The Y army has an advantage in frontal units, but he has to make that count with a successful attack before the X flanking units get into position. Y can also take his extra front line unit and try to flank on the left before he loses on the right. A third alternative is to take the left unit and counterflank the enemy's forward unit on the right, but it has a long way to travel to do that, and you have to get started early on that maneuver for it to work.

CBR,

In my test, the standing unit became "quite fresh" (-1 bar) at the 20 min mark and "quite tired" (-2 bars) at the 30 min mark. If I walk for 10 min to become "quite tired", the difference is 20 min, and the fatigue recovery could reduce that time a lot. If I incur fatigue faster than the minimum rate of my test, I'll have to wait longer, and I can see how it could become a 20 min wait.

Maybe due to my style of play, and generally I don't walk units until they are quite tired, but I'm well aware of the need to pause at different stages of the battle to recover some fatigue. Since my units spend most of a battle in the "very tired" state anyway, I welcome the +2 morale of VI which offsets most of the -3 morale of being very tired and allows units to fight throughtout the later stages of the battle. I know that's of no interest to the group of players who want the battle to be over when the first enemy unit routs.

FearofNC

05-25-2003, 20:08

longjohn- what disatvantage is there to allowing the units to fully recover stamina when resting? are there some sp considerations that we arent taking into accout? like large statcks of armies gaining even more advantage over 1 stack of elite troops? since fatuige and moral are directly related.. maybe when the masses were crying out for +2 moral all they really wanted was less fatuige..

magyar- "when some units are involved in fighting some other enemy units and u select all these units and keep clicking on the enemy does teh program calculate everytime u click certin bonuses so this massclicking is more effective then sitting and waiting?"

close but not quite... its not the bonus being recalulated that makes this effective... and it is very effective.. it is the reorganising of troops towards a single point .. men that are involved in 1v1 combat tend to break away refocus on that new point... this momentium casues pushbacks... and the pushbacks are where you are seeing this moral change.. however like many other aspects of the game, it is not always best to do this... it in some ways it increases the speed of attrition... and a good general knows when he wants combat between units to be calculated quickly or slowly depending on the eventual outcome... if your going to lose the matchup, rapidly clicking will just make you lose faster.

puzz- you can downplay your involment with the beta, or say the team had little effect on the game. but the facts clearly show this was not the case. i have talked with almost every member of every beta team since stw.. and there has been one consisitent report from all of them. you are overbearing and manipulitive, and in general, will not listen to others or there ideas if they stray too far from your truth. the time has come for an open beta, like simbol says filled with every kind of player. if 6 of the 9 testers were wolves or fears you would be saying the same thing.

mitch- your example of the x and y's further proves how limited you are when it comes to "moves" .. if you would have understood kocs idea of a withdrawing flank, you would see how y truly has the advantage. but in my 3 years of online play ive only seen maybe 10 or so genrals that can do this move well, so i guess in some ways ur right... the majority of players in y's position will be at a disatvantge becasue they will just sit and await the rush or blindly meet the rush in the middle.

XXXXX
YYYYYY X
Y X

XXXXX
YYX
Y YXY
Y Y

Magyar Khan

05-25-2003, 20:23

nc and my second point?

shingenmitch2

05-25-2003, 20:36

Yuuk, the "J" hook, is actually an extremely strong defense... used in civil war and still used on open defensive flanks in the military today. The "J" bends back and can be reinforced by the other end. It requires a more curved line. It is a defensive posture that just isn't possible in this game because of flat blocks.

Regardless, I was just using that as one example of the many things that aren't intuitive about the game. Perhaps a better, non-intuitive example is the fact that the morale hit from 1-man unit is the same as a 100-man unit.

NC, yet again you insult. Amazing that a puny-brain like mine has ever beaten the master-NC in ANY situation. In my example "X" right wing isn't stationary and was probably first in contact preventing "Y" left wing from pulling out. BTW that wasn't even my point. I was merely trying to show the morale problem that an "L" formation produces.

Better yet, lemme show a brilliant tactic:

XY

yyy X YY X YYYXXX
XX YXXX YXXXYYX
XYXYYX XYYX

how is that countered? Bwah haha...

FearofNC

05-25-2003, 20:47

magyar- there seems to be more weight given to the flag bearing soldier when calculating the position of the troop. but i dont think all of the math comes from the center flag troop... its seems to me that it is porportional to the distance.. koc has talked about this some with moral circles.

mitch- you were the one who stated army x had the atvantage.. in both real life and mtw army y has the stronger position.. and there is no moral penelty incured like you were asking about... or do you think longjohn is wrong too?

TosaInu

05-25-2003, 21:02

Quote[/b] ]FearofNC
"I understand that this actually reads: adjust morale and attrition (?) so that units rout before they tire.

-you understand incorrectly, but not surprisingly. the idea is to make movement a viable tatic, the rout point need not be changed.

"How about this one: select units, deploy, hit escape and the units suffer near 0 fatigue."

how about it?? this is you childish statment not mine..
*hands tosa a chip*

Quote[/b] ]Kocmoc
i think its mostly about the current moral and florinamout we use

in stw we played with less moral at all, so all units had less moral and if u did rout once u hardly could rally. now we play with stereoid units. so ur never able to win with good moves as u cant make ur enemy rout somewhere in a short time and it wont realy help to rout his whole army.

so even if u did rout 1 flank by has better skill u never can win vs the enemy units.
in stw the fatique just wasnt that important as u ever could win even with more tired units.
and

thats the mainreason, we cant change it about different fatique, we just can change it with less florin and less moral.
this is 1 more example about what i speak, we need to balance the system for 10k max and than the fatique will be much better balancing at 10k means, -2 moral, yes back again, i wanted the +2 moral as we spoke about plaing with v0 units, still 10k is more as v0 units.

It reads: like lower morale and fatigue gets better. That's not true (fatigue does not change by lowering morale), though it may result in a better game for Kocmoc and a few others.
Is the confusion visible? Is it understandable that others have problems with the statements? Is there a reason to burn the other for that?
About my second statement, the idea was to make a clear example of solutions that will likely not appeal anyone (read the next sentence).
It did not say that both solutions were of the same (low) quality. Your reply shows that you didn't pick that up.

There's a large difference between STW WE/MI and MTW (and more specific VI). STW WE/MI had 1 stat for anything. It could not become a specialised MP stat.
VI does allow for more than 1 stat (is more convenient to do so and much more extensive than the STW one).

Quote[/b] ]NC
puzz- you can downplay your involment with the beta, or say the team had little effect on the game. but the facts clearly show this was not the case. i have talked with almost every member of every beta team since stw.. and there has been one consisitent report from all of them. you are overbearing and manipulitive, and in general, will not listen to others or there ideas if they stray too far from your truth. the time has come for an open beta, like simbol says filled with every kind of player. if 6 of the 9 testers were wolves or fears you would be saying the same thing.

2 weeks.

CaPeFeAr

05-25-2003, 21:04

thats fine tosa... the truth hurts doesnt it..

longjohn2

05-26-2003, 00:50

Guys. Could all this bickering about the beta test team please stop. The purpose of the beta test team was to look for significant bugs, not minutae of balancing for hardcore MP players.
Such balancing changes as were made for the 1.1 patch were made at my discretion, and based on discussions in this forum (and the main hall), and on my own experiences playing the game online. You may or may not like them, but if the latter is the case, then I am to blame, not the beta test team.
This used to be a friendly forum. It'd be nice if it could back to being that way again.

1dread1lahll

05-26-2003, 01:03

Hi longjohn,,,, er I did not follow the intire thread(started off talking about fatigue) my posts were intended as informational,(no finger pointing intended)...

ElmarkOFear

05-26-2003, 01:07

LongJohn: You are looking at this in the wrong light. Most of the forum members here have been together now for around 2 to 3 years. It sounds funny, but you can probably consider us as a big family. Squabbles between brothers and sisters happen. Eventually all will get over it and things will return to the discussion at hand.

I believe a lot of the frustration, which is being blamed on the previous Beta testers is: Major bugs, which the beta testers reported, have not been addressed. Instability, GA's broken, lobby issues (scroll lock), and a few more of the major ones. These issues affect both SP and MP players and should be of vital concern to you and your coworkers.

The bickering and showing of dislike for someone's posts, attitudes, opinions, etc., is normal. As long as cursing, spamming, and ranting (which strays from the thread's main discussion) does not continue on for an extended length of time, these are a healthy way to let off steam. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif You must admit that this forum is low key when compared to parliament. Maybe one day we may see a few of these characters running the country.

FearSimbol

05-26-2003, 04:38

I am just wonderin if Nc diseerve get banned 2 weeks just for say what he think.

Also they ban Capefar forever, and all others Nc names in the org.

That is what a moderator do??? just wonderin...

What about just close the topic?? i have see this action before in th eorg you close the topic if it get to controversial like this one. YOU NOT HAVE TO TAKE PERSONAL ACTIONS TO A PLAYER you are a moderator it supose you are neutral, and BTW if you cant be neutral plz quit your job being moderator them.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

AMPage

05-26-2003, 05:18

mitch - Ok, all i was saying is that lower florin games with low moral troops make for faster routs and fatigue dosn't matter as much. If you play at higher florin games, troops will fight longer and trie troops more, so you can't have the chain routing as easy, making it harder to tackle more than one army.

Kocmoc

05-26-2003, 07:05

Zitat[/b] ]It reads: like lower morale and fatigue gets better. That's not true (fatigue does not change by lowering morale), though it may result in a better game for Kocmoc and a few others.
Is the confusion visible? Is it understandable that others have problems with the statements? Is there a reason to burn the other for that?
About my second statement, the idea was to make a clear example of solutions that will likely not appeal anyone (read the next sentence).
It did not say that both solutions were of the same (low) quality. Your reply shows that you didn't pick that up.

again tosa, u guys have problems with reading or understanding i dont know what the problem is

Zitat[/b] ]fatigue does not change by lowering morale.

yes, thats true i never said it change the fatique with lower the moral plz read correct i know its hard with my english but it seems other was able to understand my post

as AMP and this "few" other said, (me as well) the fatique becomes less important, if u play with less moral, as u can easyer rout ur enemy, if he got lower moral units.
if u fight vs high moral units u wont win and u cant rout them easy, the only way to win vs a full fresh army is, if u can rout the enemy somewhere....

so plz do me a favor and dont false my words

thx for ur effort

kocmoc

Kocmoc

05-26-2003, 08:25

just to make it clear:

we spoke about fatique and not about all the other stats, fatique is about an all feeling for every unit.
u can read AMP´s and my post and u will see what we mean.

1 more time
i dont say that it should be changed like i want
i just said, that the high moral make fatique more worth and much more important.
actual we have a game where u dont win about routing a army, in the end, YES, it will be about routing. but the most time its about unitpower. where units fight till near death.

koc

AMPage

05-26-2003, 09:31

Well all you have to do is lower the florins, but seems most people like 15k+ games. I'd rather there be only one florin amount which everyone plays at and have the stats balanced perfect for that florin lvl. Being able to ajust the amount of florins for a side was mostly for giving the attackers more florins, for like hill maps and castle maps. I hardly see anyone setting different amount of florins for each side and playing castle maps. It's almost a useless feature.

If people want to play high florins, just to aviod mass routs, well that tells you there skill lvl. And you will experince more fatigue the higher you set the florins, cause of units fighting longer.

I remmeber someone wanting to be able to make 999,999 games and heard that he left cause he didn't get that option, not sure if it's true. Now why do you need so many florins anyway? All it is doing is making units fight longer, which when you're done fighting one army you'll mostly likely have little left and your troops will be exhuasted. Heck why not just play with moral off?

I'd like to see sometime like having a one standard florin amount that you can play with and an option for the host to have a moral slider bar. Maybe each increase could be +2moral or something like that.

Also maybe you could have it where when you increase the valor of a unit, it also decreases the rate at which the unit fatigues. So, a valor 4 unit will fatigue slower than a V0 unit. But, really that won't fix the over all problem of lot's of units fighting almost or till death at higher florins, but it will help with fatigue on most units. Of, course people don't see that as a problem, units fighting close till death, which isn't a problem when that unit is fighting till death cause that player is keeping his moral up, by protecting flanks, making good match ups, and has enemy units routing nearby.

Orda Khan

05-26-2003, 10:43

Quote[/b] (Kansuke @ May 25 2003,07:23)]Howl All,

Well Orda its not like you Sorry to here about your vacation problems. So why did you bother to post at all.

The Universal Khan has made a valid point, it helps if others are aware of it.

Kansuke
We are now on page eight, the insults are still flying around and people here are, sadly, trying to out-do each other with the level to which they are prepared to stoop

And you can't see why I posted??

Tell you what, why not read it again when we reach page28 of this thread that seems to be stuck on a roundabout, when the insults have become even more personal. Maybe then you will understand how there are some of us who find these historical grievances very tedious. Do you honestly think a PC gameis worth getting this emotional about ?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Yes guys it's a game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

It's too late now because the cheap shots have already been taken ( imo it should have been closed ages ago ) Even if one or two want to get back on topic someone turns up and tries to introduce a new level of low......and my point.......about a PC game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Maybe we should leave it to the kids.....seems they can deal with it in a far more mature manner

.....Orda

Crandaeolon

05-26-2003, 12:02

I have a solution

Let's all turn off fatigue and play on steppes with the following units in every army:

8x v3 Peasants (P)
2x v2 Order Foot ®
2x v0 Feudal Knights (N)
2x v1 Billmen (B)
1x v0 Royal Knights (K)
1x v1 Lancers (Q)

(There are no ranged units because they are underpowered.)

Initial formations must be like this:

RNBQKBNR
PPPPPPPP

PPPPPPPP
RNBQKBNR

If the game is still too chaotic, we'll invent some rules about how the different units may move. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
----------------------------------------------------------

I've betatested a couple of games and I certainly didn't have any power over game features. It was just bug hunting. I didn't say anything before because I didn't know what the case is with Total War betas. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif Good to hear it from LJ, though. Now all flak can be directed at him. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Betas are easy targets because they are often active on forums and many have strong opinions about the game. But they're just lowly betas, the bottom rung on the game designing food chain. High and mighty Developer Gods usually won't let street scum affect their grand design.

The +2 to morale in MP was really quite useless, it didn't change anything. Well of course it did change if you play 15k games, but you could have played 25k games in 1.1 to get the same effect. And, you can play 8.8k games in VI to get roughly the same morale as in 1.1 15k. In theory.

Kocmoc

05-26-2003, 12:36

i can follow u cran, there is just a little mistake, if u play 15k or 25k... if u can buy for 10k more, units become better attack and defence, or armour...weapons.....whatever u buy. with the current 15k, the stats are not more falsed as it would be happen at 25k.

and dont forget peeps hardly change, so we could had lowered the moral (-2) and the player would have very slow changed to higher florin....i hope usee what i mean.

in german we say ...der mensch ist ein Gewohnheitstier

koc

Crandaeolon

05-26-2003, 12:49

Yeah, I understand what you mean Koc. That's why I put that "in theory" after the last paragraph. It's not 100% true to say that 25k would have +2 morale compared to 15k, and that's because the upgrades get spread differently.

If we add one "valour upgrade" (+2 to morale) to 15k, we get 15*1.7=25.5k. 15/1.7=8.8, so that's where I got the number for "roughly" 1.1 15k morale. But of course the upgrades get spent differently.

baz

05-26-2003, 12:51

this topic got terrible out of hand, and i am not happy at all with the outcome ..

units tire too fast its a fact ..

1.a unit with less moral will rout quicker
2.a unit that fights for a shorter time will use less energy
3.play with less moral and units will not tire as much
4.play with lower florins, you get less moral

this implies that ..
a lower florin level reduces the effects of fatique (i think)

anyway i personally am in favour of playing with a similar morale to 1.1 but nevermind ..

i think a massive contribution to the problem is the multi-directional routing, a good move like what koc speaks of, can easily give you the first blow in mtw, but because when chasing your units fly all over the place it hardly gives you an advantage to do this .. for me personally i think the routing needs to be made more rigid .. im not saying go back to stw but it should definately not be as it is now

ps. regarding the bans, i have hardly participated in this thread but i have been reading it closely, if NC is banned then i feel others should be too .. let the gods decide.

pps. regarding the moderators in this forum perhaps they can go through this thread and retreive any good that has come with it, there are many valuable points that deserve not to be buried http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

CeltiberoSkullXIII

05-26-2003, 13:01

are ORG mods GODS? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Swoosh So

05-26-2003, 13:31

Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ May 23 2003,08:31)]im also sick and tired of you saying you know what amp brought, and amp did this and amp did that... and always using him in your case studies... you dont know arron... and you dont know mike either...
hehe, does anyone even know what amp stands for? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif mr milton parmley http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif sounds like an author http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif .

Fly fishing by arron milton parmley http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif (uk peeps get the joke&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Dont worry amp knows im just playing hes oone of my fav peeps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Kocmoc

05-26-2003, 13:52

yes bann yuuki and tosa as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

feel free to bann me as well, i dont think that i was less "activ" as NC if someone get banned for voice his opinion...well, than thats a very odd system many did name names...many was offtopic....

apart from the fatique, wich is clear for us all now...i think. we have some basics to clear. the current system allow us to much i dont understand why CA said, "the gaem should be played with valour0", but allow us to use up to 99k if we would have a laddersystem and a friendly system, than it would owrk much better.

i mentioned this already, a comp system with very hard rules would make near everyone become used to this amount of florin and that upgrades....

the system with 128 units and between 5k and 99k, this many armour/weapon and valour.... isnt able to balance this is clear for us all. so we just can play with all the problems or go and create a system with hard rules and very small possible upgrades.

i think its also clear that some mecanics are not welcome.
if i look at the points we not agree, and the other where we agree, well than lets first focus the points where many agree.

its still enougth to change and it will at least help a bit.

koc

CBR

05-26-2003, 16:00

Why dont we try some 5k games then? We now have the +2 morale so it cant be that bad http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

With 5k we dont have money for silly upgrading and cant buy that much cav. Of course missile units are expensive but at least we dont have v3-4 shock units killing off v1-2 spears.

But I guess people want their heavily upgraded cmaa and mil sergeants.. heh

CBR

Crandaeolon

05-26-2003, 16:11

That "You can ban me..." -signature is annoying. Please change it. It certainly doesn't help in gaining respect.

CBR, as Koc said many peeps are "stuck" to certain florin amounts they are accustomed to. 15k has been the common standard in 1.1 so players have tuned their armies to that amount. And we all know that change is a horrible, horrible thing... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

baz

05-26-2003, 16:25

can whoever please take the sound outta there sig aswell http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Kocmoc

05-26-2003, 16:29

yes thast what i said

imagin what will happen if we had a laddersystem and all games have to be played with 10k and no upgrades.... and just +2 valour max.... (just example)

it would solve the problem in a very fast time, i dont realy need a ladder but the ladder would be an instrument to change thigs in a fast time

thastwhy i brougth this point

koc

CBR

05-26-2003, 16:34

FFS what is this noise?? oh why did I turn on my speakers..

Yes thats what I did in MPwars and AFAIK what Sko is doing in his mod. Playing with a completely different florin level to "force" people to look at the game from a different angle instead of same old 15k games http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

CBR

baz

05-26-2003, 16:36

for me its important the CWB is played at a good florin level to set an axample to the community .. perphaps all clans involved should get a vote each and we study the results to find a suitable compromise http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Crandaeolon

05-26-2003, 17:23

I suggest 12084 florins. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Or roughly 12k. That would be less routy than 8.8k and a bit less "to-the-death" than 15k.

Cheetah

05-26-2003, 17:33

IMHO, 12500 is the same as 15000 just without upgrades. If you want hard choices to be made then you should pick 10000. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif But even at 10k by picking units with high base morale you can buy the same or almost the same morale for your army as at 15k. Of course, it wont have the same combat power.

FearSimbol

05-26-2003, 17:40

So you want ban my sig too??

i cant express myself them i think.

o well

Gregoshi

05-26-2003, 17:54

Simbol, according the to posted sig guidelines, sound is not allowed. Please extend some courtesy to your fellow patrons and remove the sound. Thank you.

Puzz3D

05-26-2003, 17:56

I think there is benefit to fatigue when playing at the +2 morale because when your units rout they run, and when they run they get tired which causes a morale penalty. They quickly go to very tired and then exhausted while running. I see more exhausted units when playing at lower morale not fewer exhausted units, and those units tend to be scattered all over the battlefield. At +2 morale the units fight longer and get tired as well, but they are under better control because they stay in one place longer. The units stand their ground better in the very tired state because the +2 morale offsets most of the -3 morale penalty for being very tired. Playing VI at 15k is not like playing with morale turned off. The gameplay is different with morale turned off (+12 morale).

I played a VI, high era, arid, flatinland20, 4v4, 9k/each game yesterday and it was over in 10 min. Playing under those same conditions, except at 15k/each, it took 15 min just to turn the flank of the enemy on that same map, and you had to win many small combats with lots of traps to do it. The average length of a battle seems to be in the 30 to 40 min range. The game is playable over that length of time because the units remain functional when very tired which is the fatigue level that your units are in most of the time. I don't have difficulty keeping units in that range of fatigue in good weather, and I haven't had the problem of big battles dragging on while you chase down scattered enemies with exhausted units like I did many times in MTW at 15k. When the weather turns bad, exhausted seems to be the fatigue level where units spend most of their time which means they can't run and get a larger morale penalty and those battles drag badly.

Reducing fatigue would allow players to be more mobile on big maps and probably speed up the battles, but too much reduction will tend to bring back the rush game. So, it's great that everyone agrees that fatigue should be reduced, but no one knows by how much.

TosaInu

05-26-2003, 18:38

Quote[/b] ]Kocmoc
again tosa, u guys have problems with reading or understanding i dont know what the problem is

Quote[/b] ]fatigue does not change by lowering morale.

yes, thats true i never said it change the fatique with lower the moral plz read correct i know its hard with my english but it seems other was able to understand my post

Good words Kocmoc. There are problems with understanding (and that has nothing to do with not being able to express yourself in English). Does arguing enhance understanding?

And to switch to the discussion, it's a good discussion and thus it remains open:

Hello AMP,

Quote[/b] ]AMP
I hardly see anyone setting different amount of florins for each side and playing castle maps. It's almost a useless feature.

But an asked for feature. It's useful for some things (homemade campaigns being an example).
999,999 games

It's 99,999 Amp, not to bug you for what's probably a typo, but it has relevance ->

Quote[/b] ]Amp
All it is doing is making units fight longer, which when you're done fighting one army you'll mostly likely have little left and your troops will be exhuasted. Heck why not just play with moral off?
[quote]

Morale off seems to be some +10 morale. V4 units have +8 morale compared to V0. V4 units cost a lot, I'm not sure whether you can buy 16 quality V4 units in 99,999 1v1. 4v4 is less than 25k each, so it's not easy to get the morale you want (there's a gap between morale off and on: 'all or nothing' and the florins don't cover the whole range). Just my impression, VI's +2 morale adds more flexibility in the types of game compared to MTW: rout fight.

[quote]AMP
All it is doing is making units fight longer, which when you're done fighting one army you'll mostly likely have little left and your troops will be exhuasted'.

This asks for less brave and sticky units, so units rout quicker, leaving your own units less tired.

Quote[/b] ]AMP
If people want to play high florins, just to aviod mass routs, well that tells you there skill lvl.

It's a different skill.

Quote[/b] ]AMP
I'd like to see sometime like having a one standard florin amount that you can play with and an option for the host to have a moral slider bar. Maybe each increase could be +2moral or something like that.

Me too AMP. And a fatigue slider, and an ammo slider, speedslider, hardcoded stats in txt files (flankbonus, moralepenalties), yes/no upgrades and how much, upgrade classes (an archer is not a swordsman) even the combatformulas themselves (ajust value of constants). Is this going to make more stats than players? Maybe. But it'll also attract more players.

The former point: yes this would be a neat option too. And it would appeal comp players (I guess). Though there's actually nothing preventing them to do that now. Except for the lack of a visual reward (no ladder or any other stimulus).

Quote[/b] ]Kocmoc
the current system allow us to much i dont understand why CA said, "the gaem should be played with valour0", but allow us to use up to 99k if we would have a laddersystem and a friendly system, than it would owrk much better.

It's getting interesting (no sarcasm). I doubt that CA can allow the player (throwing all on 1 pile here) too much. Your second sentence does not necessarily agree with my opinion, but says that the current system would be ok if there was also a more restricted comp.

In fact, no one disallows you to do that now: only play the games you consider fair/skilled. So, what you actually ask for is a laddersystem with more restricted options.

It's interesting, for it may solve the problem between 'fun' and 'comp' players, but I also feel that it somewhat repositions the problem. I'll try to explain (and btw, I'm not against a comp mode).

10k TW games play quite different from 99k. But the game's actually the same: morale, fatigue and attack are in both types of game. They just interact differently. Having one type of comp is arbitrary and may exclude some skills from the comp. I'm using the huge difference 10k-99k here, but what if vetA is 5% more of a fight type while vetB is more of a move type? Or a 100% move type wanting to play comp? Moving is his skill and he may train all he want and never reach top10. How's that going to be solved? Different leagues? Who's going to make those stats?

I guess that one should to be able to design his own league, using a custom stats (and of course be able to implement the restrictions).

Quote[/b] ]Baz
pps. regarding the moderators in this forum perhaps they can go through this thread and retreive any good that has come with it, there are many valuable points that deserve not to be buried

I agree, any patron has an edit feature and some tools in the control panel. This topic has some 40 moderators.

Kocmoc

05-26-2003, 19:24

i dont agree with u yuuki, coz.....if many of ur units rout, u should have lost rally many units all the times, this is creating chaos

if just a few rout, ok than it doestn matter, if this few units are more tired as the rest.
if many rout, u should have lost

we need something like a rallytime, like 20 secs....so u cant rally after a few sescs, somewhere in the back of ur enemy, or in a flank. this is 1 of the mainprobs wich cause this so called "LOL-Games", this rally untis wich create some -moral, somewhere in ur back or on ur flank.

no imo its clear, if ur mainpart rout u should have lost

koc

Magyar Khan

05-26-2003, 19:44

sorry nc the banning part is my fault. i posted in this topic to tosa that he should do what he does best. i forgot his banning skills http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif back to topic...

question
i am wondering but do even heavy decimated units in your rear cause teh same problems as full healthy units.

i can imagine that if u see just 5 men in your back it instead causing morale negative modifiers for u, it would give u bonusses since seeing decimated enemies can give u moraleboosts as well.

is it an idea that if a unit is decimated till 10 men or less it dont cause morale circles

Mithrandir

05-26-2003, 20:04

If I'd be a puny peasant (instead of an elf-lord http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ) I'd worry about 5 knights in my back, let alone 10 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif...

shingenmitch2

05-26-2003, 20:25

Hi Amp,

I was kind of asking, and making a point at same time. Is it better that troops run (rout) because they are tired, or because they break easier? It kind of like "6-in-one-hand, half-dozen in the other."

So I guess I was asking was either option (lowering morale or raising morale) really a viable solution for fatigue imbalance between attacker & defender? I tend to doubt that the fatigue can be solved through simple morale changes -- because morale changes always open up other problems. (i.e. lower morale appears to make cavalry over-powered compared to inf., which was one of the reasons peeps were asking for higher morale for inf. in VI)

Also there really is a balance to having units run because they "feel" overwhelmed (a low koku game which is purely about morale and breaking that first unit), and because the unit is actually losing more men than the enemy due to combat (straight attrition game, high koku game). The arguement that seems to be occuring is what peeps think is the proper balance to get the best of both. Some want more morale effects, others combat loss. Fatigue kind of muddles both arguements because it has implications for morale.

-------------

Magy, it's my understanding that the "beat-up" aspect of a unit does not play into its morale hits towards enemy at all. A unit that started at 100, but is now down to 1 peep left gives the same morale hit that it had when it was full strength.

You are quite right that numbers of troops should effect the morale. I've always thought that the morale circle/effect should be proportional to the number of men it has left compared to what it started as. i.e. a unit down 50% in men cause 50% morale. The flat number u suggest has implications for units that start with 10 or less (naptha, kensai)

Puzz3D

05-26-2003, 21:00

Kocmoc,

I haven't had a single player come back from a main rout and win in a VI 15k game and I have not been able to come back from one either, but I saw that happen in a 10K VI game, and I saw it happen many times in MTW v1.1 at 15k. Units get a big -8 morale penalty when they drop below 1/2 strength, so fighting longer means they are more likely below 1/2 strength and at lower morale in a VI 15k game than in a MTW 15k game where they are more likely to rout at above 1/2 strength. I find there is less chaos with the +2 morale and battles end quicker after the main rout. The battles seem tightly grouped in the 30 min to 40 min range. By definition, lower morale means more routing, so units start scattering earlier in the battle. What is different is that it takes longer to achive the main rout, but I think once that happens you are lost.

BTW, I sent you that replay of the VI 15k 4v4 with 193 kills over a week ago, but no matter because the gameplay in that is not what you're after. I'll edit my posts in this thread where I commented on statement by you that appear to me to be contradictions. I'm obviously not understanding what you are saying in many cases.

Magyar Khan

05-26-2003, 21:07

shing, do u think that if ur in a unit of 40 foot knights and u see 9 people in the grass u matter what tehy are. remember specialized forces in medieval times werent as specialised and commonly feared as today. and still when it comes to plain battlefear there is a relation to your own esteem and pride, the boost when being with friends and the number of the enemy. look at groupie behavior or teh way hyenas act.

morale bonusses should be related to inter-relation of sizes and teh amount of shiny armour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

FearSimbol

05-26-2003, 21:23

Hello yuki

Quote[/b] ]Kocmoc,
I think you will need lots of changes to get the gameplay you are after.

See this is what i am talking about, is about a player game style? or is about a great game?? i think we lost the point in this post, every one is ataking every one, every one stare at Amp game play, Amp style of game or kocmoc style of play or the others player style of game...

The true is units get tired fast that is a fact, that is what we are saying nothing more, of course if i play slow games and rest few mins, move gain, rest few mins, move again and rest few mins, i will get my 4 or 3 bars again. But not all people play like that, i like play fast i dont like be hours waiting pasives get out of arrows to start the fight, or wait 4 mins after moving 1 mile, then moving me again.

Remember we are dif player with dif tactics, and with dif style of play, and none style of play is bad is just dif. We cant blame a player for his style of play... that is bad.

We have touch many topics and many fights have taken here, many hard feelings now are out there it is really necesary? personaly i am mad for many things and i am sure many of you too. Plz lets close this before it come worse.

I Love TotalWar Games and of course it cant be perfect to all players we all know that, we only trie to expose others point of view it is unfair expose it? plz guys lets stop ataking every one here i think is enouf.

Sorry about the sig sound and all that, but i was mad. Apologyses..

Kocmoc

05-26-2003, 22:35

let me ask a few questions....

at the end the loser army will rout, right?

is there a big difference, if this army routs after 10% losses or 50%? (its clear, 40% more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

i cant explain this in any number nor stats, its an allabout feeling. when u play and ur better as ur enemy, u will win (at least this should be the mecanic of this game)

lets use this, as it would be like this....

now u win But how u have to win?
u win with a kill-loss raio of 1:2?
1:3?

i saw many games where my enemy was very bad, i would say a kill loss ratio of 700: 100, would be ok and would reflect his skill

but this dont happen.....

now comes the fatique
lets say, once we get a campain. Now it will happen that u play 1 v 2....
face it u cant win 1v2, just if u got a extrem good army and ur enemys both bad armys.

if u had 25k and both enemy just 15k, u still would lose it

so, all the guys who ask for a campain....this wont work, lets say...not with the current system.

so what florinamount we need, that u coudl win?
imo with the current system below 10k, around 8max.

if ur above 10, u cant win as the fatique makes u so tired that u can win vs the first army, but never vs the second.

back to the %. imo the battle shold be over if ur outmaneuvered and somewhere u have units, wich will come too late. so u fight a few moments somewhere vs more units... u moved bad, got outmaneuvered and outnumbered and u should rout the rest of ur units shouldt stay a chance vs the rest of ur units.

with the current system, u never cant come too late, even if u forgot soem units or a flank comes 10 or 15 secs too late, it doesnt matter

i jsut write this to make my point more clear.

i dont see any point in armys wich lose but can kill many of ur mens. i know its mtw..... in stw u could win vs 3 armys, but u could also lose many mens vs a good opponent.
this system was very nice. i dont say it was perfect but it offered many ways, u could win with ur skill.

many of the points here i understand and i see why guys think like this. call me arrogant, but this wont help us, as if this its the exploited system we have now online, well....than STW was much better actual it got a frontal attack game, with some small flankmaneuver.

and yes we have many guys with many styles here, but in all my games, and i played about 10.000 games i saw many different kind of players. a handfull was very good....
now this player are not able to bring this on the field. as u cant realy control ur army, the control about ur army got worser than it ever was in a good battle i can control around 80% not more, with all the roting in any direction.... with all the units wich chase down but u get the info that they fight, ...with all the units wich get stuck as an enemy unit rout in theyr way...

and many more. all this makes it impossible to keep a good control about ur units.in 95% of my games i rout my enemy first, and get his mainpart but after this, i always rout somewhere too. not that i made a real mistake....its about somewhere did an enemy uni rally and cause a big moralpenalty. or my unit run trougth an enemy routed unit and lose many mens and rout themself.

just a few examples.

imo, we need to speak about, when should ur enemy have lost?
maybe this rallytime....
or dont let enemy units rally in the influencezone of ur units?
ur units should get stucked if u move trougth the enemy units
u shouldnt kill mens if u move trought the enemy units.
just if direct chase them.
i dont want my units chase, if they got impetioust.
i want that my army do what i say

i see many player post here and i dont care about ur skill, as u dont care about my skill but i search for the probs why many of the good old player leave. all player wich was called "as very good player" left or play very less.
I never tryed to be arrogant, plz dont get me wrong. but i know what i can, and i still can move like i ever did, but many of this moves are jsut not usefull
so i has to admit, that this game lost for me. if a massiv big move flank maneuver dont work even, if the enemy fight me with 8 units and dont move the otehr 8 units, and they jsut stay around, than i should clear win the game, but this dont happen this means he can fight my 800 with 400 but still hold "forever" and kill a lot.

this moves just show a wrong outcome. all our historics, should agree that if u fight an inactiv army with 2:1 the enemy army should badly lose, if u got same mens.

i said this already many times, but again.......i want that u get punished for ur mistakes, it shouldnt be possible that an inactiv army can win or kill about 400/500 mens.

u can test it on ur own, host a 1v1 setup army hit ready and do nothing. the outcome makes me fear

fatique becomes less important with lower moral, as u can rout the nemy faster and keep fresher units.
and u still have a chance vs a complet fresh army, as u can win about routing the enemy somewhere.

actual we cold reduce the units to 50% unitsize and it would be samem it just woudl be a bit faster. its just about time and to kill some of the enemy, than he will rout or u. the timing is not important anymore asu have all time of the world to mve ur cav or other units somewhere around.

enougth of this

we should also clear, what we want...historical more correct or a more challanging game?

to make it more interesting i suggest, that some units like all the maa unittypes get less armour, make them armour 2 or 1. so they have to fear ur archers/missles more.

somehow we need more counterunits, wich realy can do the job, we need more points, where u have to look for. this just move it ion somewhere acting is very annoying. but this is what happens very often. u dont have to think where u move ur units in. what cna counter ur cav? not the current spears, a few very slow units, wich never are in time to be real dangerous.

what coutner the maa?

dunno maybe a ubercav....nothing else. i did frontal acher tests, if u go frontal vs longbos u can lose up to 10 men if every maa vace 1 longbow. with the current costs of the shooters, they still hit not enougth. vs high armoured units they shouldnt hit, that ok.

but the system istn clear, a few units move slower as other but, got the same armour??? other like lancer have same armour as very slow cav??

this system is not clear

imo every unit should have a weakpoint, or this whole game get spoiled. u should always fear a unit....
an example would be, an archer should hit at least 20 mens if they come frontal. this would be fair frontal attack is a easy "tactic", and if u do it u have less shooter. so u have more h2h power, so u should get something for ur unitslots and not h2h units.

i could write some more hours....

My opinion is, hehe i dont care about historical i want some fun if we can create more fun woth more historicla correct system, GREAT if not, well than better we have more fun as some nice historical correct units.

now to the weaker player (let me become arrogant) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
yes some are weak face it in a post there was written, ....they have other skills ...or there are different kind of skills....

yes, thats true But there is jsut 1 moving skill
and sometimes if i read and se this player later online, and watch them playing. well, than i can say....they are not very good they are average

i wont have a game jsut for me, but i want a game where player like me can exploit the system and bring theyr creativity and skill on the battlefield.
in STW times there was something like magic and athmosphere in this games, it was like a god, who was watching me. i created many tactics moves, and brougth many ideas.

so sure i want something and i fight and write my ass of for this i didnt played since ages online, i play maybe 5 games a week.

sure other have fun, but they do maybe 40% of this what we did.... and the most play jsut boring flat maps. we need a comp system tha we will face camper again, hell i did love to work more as 1 hour to kick such guys from theyr hills.

all i want is fun for us all, i want that everyone can get "his" game. thatswhy i cant understand guys who did vote vs a ladder. u can play friendly u never has to play comp. and we always had some blacksheeps, even now we have

imo, we should allow jsut 1 name each CD-key, this would solve the most probs in this direction. im normaly a very nice and friendly guy, but somehow i become most of times here very impulsiv and often im angered.

many here think they know it all and act like this, its just that u never can see what is realy possible with this game. WE play with a bad mecanic and with many problems.
we need solutions. and sometimes a better solution for all will be bad for a few of us. lets accept it, that sometimes a step back is tomorrow a step forward.

koc

PS: i still dont like the orgpolice and im a free person and i want to say this http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
i dont saw a real "attack here", we are all old enougth and should get used that sometimes some peeps will tell u what they think in ur face.

unbann NC

ElmarkOFear

05-26-2003, 22:47

Since the game is supposedly balanced at val 0, has anyone tried playing a big game where you are not allowed any valour upgrades, but ARE allowed wep and arm upgrades? If so, does this take care of some of the imbalances? What florin level would be good to allow for SOME wep or arm upgrades? Also, has anyone tried playing with fatigue off? (I asked this before, but everyone laughed, but I feel they have not really tried it since the VI game was released.)

BTW: I had a game last night, where a unit of Pikemen had 2 bars of fatigue and 70 men left, charged the rear of a 15-man mongol heavy cav unit that had been running the whole game (so it should have been exhausted). No routing troops nearby, no other enemy units near a flank. The Pikemen unit routed before it reached the Heavy Mongol Cav unit. It had the flank, it had good fatigue, it had the numbers, and there were no routing friendlies nor enemy around beside the enemy cav unit. I found that a bit odd, and the more I am looking the more odd things I am finding. I will make a collection of them in replays and send them as a package to anyone who might be interested. Give me until next weekend to gather more of them and can begin analyzing.

AMPage

05-26-2003, 22:51

Hello Tosa,

Yes, I agree being able to ajust the florin amount anyway for attacker and defender is useful for somethings, but it's rare, that's why i said almost useless feature. I think it helps keep everyone inbound with each other and dosn't seperate the players. You won't have many people not joining someone elses game cause of the florin amount, map, or settings. I just think it would be nice if the stats were balanced at a certain florin lvl and the other options maybe have to be turn on through the game options and not host menu. So, when you join a game it dosn't show florins for each side cause all get the same, it only shows it when you click ready, and when you join a game which changed florins it will let you know when you join, have it flashing to be more visable.

The 999,999 was brought up by someone here long ago that he wanted added in the game, yes 999,999. Which is kind of pointless, since you can upgrade to full in 1v1 matches, except for weapon and armor upgrades i think. I think he mainly said it so that you could play 4v4 games and each player had maxed out florins. People uppin there florins like this just shows me that they are trying to aviod mass routs, and you already have some units that fight till death without being maxed in valor, because you can't inflict high moral penalites. That's why i said why not just turn moral off, to make sure all units fight till death, to me it's pointless playing. At 5k you can have units fight till death, you just got keep thier moral up, which to me requires skill. That's why i say higher florins is a different skill lvl, as in dosn't require as much skill, it's just opens up for those of lesser skill to have a greater chance of victory. And that's not helping them understand the feel for tatics, that's why jumping from 15k to much lower most can't understand what's going on, why thier troops are routing, cause they are so used to being able to make less mistakes and still come out victor or lose but still get lots of kills. In STW from 5k - 8k around that amount, you could rout armies with hardly any losses or be routed with hardly any kills, you can also have lots of losses, not from just getting cut down when routing, but being to keep moral up and have them fighting long, it's where terrain and tatics played huge big role.

Hi Mitch,

I think it's better to have units rout because they can break easier. It's better to have it where units can rout with all the men left in its unit cause of moral penalties or fight close to death, have it all depending on match-ups, being badly out numbered, flanks/rears being attacked, moral bounses, and terrain. I don't mind fatigue playing a role in how fast a unit routs, just i'd rather lean on the moral being the main reason. So, really i'd like to see fatigue hurt units moral less and fighting abilty, although i don't really notice much change in a units fighting ability, mostly that it can only march, getting no charge bouns.

Lowering moral won't help change to fatigue problem fully, as i said it will only help due to the fact that units are most likely to rout faster in combat. With higher you have units fighting longer, which all units tire while fighting, i don't know the fatigue rate of units fighting though, but it hurts over time.

For me i like a good amount of moral effects, but one main one we are missile now is missile unit effect. In STW the musk played a good role for range and was about prefect, you could kill/rout alot with a musk or have it useless, if it can't get any clean shots off. So, in MTW rushing is easy and arbs don't inflict enough to matter a whole lot. As for combat i don't mind units fighting a long time if cause of moral up and safe match-ups.

-----------

Lower moral with units being able to rout at fresh with all men left in the unit is all good. In STW you could rout an honor 4 monk that hasn't done any fighting or moving, if it got sucked in a strong chain rout, being presued by a rather strong force. If the majority of people like it where you have to quite a bit of fighting before any mass rout, also disabling the chances of routing 2+ armies with 1 army, i guess there's nothing that's going to change thier view.

So, us players that like the chances of winning vs a few players alone or being able to take on two armies at once with being better skilled have to accept the fact that the over all skill lvl has dropped. At most we can enjoy now is watching armies clash and a big messy chatoic battle, which we have little control over the outcome.

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

05-26-2003, 23:03

I second Simbol on this one... We have the opportunity to play this game pretty much as we want, with different Fl level, or using mod. Play the game you like. But do not despise other people game because they require a different set of skill than the one you like...

We may want overall to change a few things which might improve gameplay either as an option or across the board provided there is a large consensus.

Regarding fatigue, IIRC, longjohn stated that it would get equal fast after a few round between a quite fresh defender and a quite tired attacker.

OK. That might be good for 1v1 lover.

But a few endgame in 4v4 looks funny and / or decided by the fact that "I am very tired, you' re exhausted I win"

The +2 morale (and hence all the discussion on the fl level) somehow related to this because units fight longer, get more tired and are more likely to end up the fight exhausted (at least as I play it... I would like to rout opponent in 30 sec staying fresh... But I am not good enough, please help me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ).

So in large 4v4 game we end up with exhausted guys regrouping as they can after a tough and sometimes epic fight, and then, those mighty heroes so far potential survivors of a tough battle run like there is not tomorrow cause they are exhausted.

Either a REST order, or going back to say quite tired faster would be helpful to make those endgames somehow more enjoyable.

I've read somewhere in this thread about no morale penalty for fatigue. I have mixed feeling.
At some point, fatigue helps 'cleaning the table', without morale penalty for fatigue, we are likely to see fighting units hold longer.

It may seem contradictory, but actually it is not; when regrouping, getting in endgame phase; I would like units to recover faster to have an endgame which is more than 'very tired engage exhausted and make him rout on contact'. But when fighting, I don't mind them suffereing from morale penalty as it helps breaking tie by lowering everybody morale closer to the routing point. If not you can imagine spear fighting each other until the end of the world...

Louis the Simurgh,

ElmarkOFear

05-26-2003, 23:10

What about using {"smaller unit sizes" as the default? I played maybe games like this, but wonder if it would open up the map more and with fatigue off would make that double team rout possible without losing the ability to take on another enemy later on. I do not know many that have tried these things in-game to see what effect it has. I will probably start hosting these games to see what happens. Anybody interested, am on at midnight Eastern Standard time for about 2 hours each weekday night. My name is UglyElmo

AMPage

05-26-2003, 23:11

Hi Elmo,

Quote[/b] ]Elmo
BTW: I had a game last night, where a unit of Pikemen had 2 bars of fatigue and 70 men left, charged the rear of a 15-man mongol heavy cav unit that had been running the whole game (so it should have been exhausted). No routing troops nearby, no other enemy units near a flank. The Pikemen unit routed before it reached the Heavy Mongol Cav unit. It had the flank, it had good fatigue, it had the numbers, and there were no routing friendlies nor enemy around beside the enemy cav unit. I found that a bit odd, and the more I am looking the more odd things I am finding. I will make a collection of them in replays and send them as a package to anyone who might be interested. Give me until next weekend to gather more of them and can begin analyzing.

Yes i would like to see some of these replays. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

shingenmitch2

05-26-2003, 23:13

Hi Amp,

Well I'd say that our vantage points are close, but have honest point of divergence.

My feeling about the morale/attrition is that if a unit is flanked, it will run sooner -- But their running should not solely be because of a "morale effect" for the unit being in a "Flank" situation (i.e. it simply has a unit next to its flank and the guys get scared and run). That should only be a part of the equation. They should be running more (in my opinion) because it's guys are actually dying quicker. They are dying faster because the unit is getting hit from the side and front and the flanker has combat bonus (i.e. easier to-hit) because it attacking the side, which is harder for the unit to defend.

These differences in our view are shades of gray as both these things are happening in a flank situation. It's just the degree to which we like seeing them make their impact. I enjoy the match-up game as much as the morale game and find that at 15k this seems to be a good balance. Units will rout if they are charged by 3 full units -- but, if the matchup ok, that lone unit might stick it out for a while. The low koku game was always a bit too much of rout-fest for my taste--you could scare ur opponants troops into a loss http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The fact that units can "feel" overwhelmed is a great aspect to the TW series, but its a question of how much should that happen vs. units running because of actual combat loss.

-------------

Magy,
I can't argue that point, because I agree w/you. I only mention that it had implications for Kensai/naptha. But totally agree that said units shouldn't give the hit of a 100 man spear unit.

Magyar Khan

05-26-2003, 23:14

elm i see no problem in pikes losing to a few mongols.

adjusting florins is only possible before a game starts.

perhaps the current gamesystem, which benefit the limited player, makes teh genre more popular for teh mass. the best thing for this gametype is if other developers start making these kind of simulations.

u can compare stw/mi with chess and mtw with checkers.

or remember teh guy who hosted those 100 koku games. without some knowledge u could have lost, with equal or even more knowlegde the balance would probably be 50% for winning.

mtw vi added horsearchery so it added for soem players cream to the battle. fatique at the current rate makes extra movement uneconimical, u lose more in combatpower than u gain in testing teh enemies defenses.

shingenmitch2

05-26-2003, 23:16

Hehe Elm,

And mine is Slim Shady http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

It is difficult to know why that Pike may have routed without knowing the valor on each unit. But I would think that is an example of morale being too low -- so that all other morale effects wind up impacting a near full unit too much.

AMPage

05-26-2003, 23:31

Elmo,

Quote[/b] ]Elmo
What about using {"smaller unit sizes" as the default? I played maybe games like this, but wonder if it would open up the map more and with fatigue off would make that double team rout possible without losing the ability to take on another enemy later on.

Well don't forget about moral, cause i think units as such a small size take more to rout, being that they are tiny, not sure. Atleast fatigue off will help with not being exhausted after 1 battle not being able to take on another enemy right away. It's really having the right combination of fatigue rate, moral, and unit size. The standard unit size in stw of 60 men per unit was perfect.

Quote[/b] ]Elmo
Since the game is supposedly balanced at val 0, has anyone tried playing a big game where you are not allowed any valour upgrades, but ARE allowed wep and arm upgrades? If so, does this take care of some of the imbalances? What florin level would be good to allow for SOME wep or arm upgrades? Also, has anyone tried playing with fatigue off? (I asked this before, but everyone laughed, but I feel they have not really tried it since the VI game was released.)

This sounds like a good idea elmo, try one at 5k, no valor upgrades, only wep and arm upgrades. I think it will only help with for once where just weap and arm upgrades are finally used big time. I doubt it will help with the balance of game play though, many things need to be fixed there.

AMPage

05-27-2003, 00:13

Hi Mitch,

I agree with you. That a unit should run faster mainly cause its being hit from the flank/rear/taking losses faster from being attacked thier, not for the sole purpose that a unit is about to be flanked.

Chain routing isn't cause of units moving up on thier flank it was cause of that unit next to them routing or it was a combination of that friendly unit routing and a few secs later having your flanked slighty attacked by an enemy unit.

You can scare your units into a loss at low florins cause they aren't reacting fast enough to protect flanks, getting away from a possible rout, feeding the chain rout, bunching up thier troops, and poor match-ups. With low moral units won't fight as long without the proper match-ups and moral support. That's why it's more possible to rout an army twice your size or take on another army after you destroyed one already, if you're better skilled&faster than your enemy, playing at lower florins.

It's just at higher florins the moral effects become less important, due to the fact that units will fight longer, having higher moral.

An example would be attacking a V4 byz inf with a V4spear unit and flanking the byz inf with an V2 horsearcher, where the byz if would most likely still win, but if they were V0, the byz inf would lose. This applies for lots of units, small unit sized units with high moral, and units with low moral,but big unit size.

Tatics just become less important...

Puzz3D

05-27-2003, 00:20

Simbol,

The fatigue is preventing a faster gamestlye. Reducing fatigue is fine, but I would hope it wasn't taken so far as to eliminate the slow gamestyle where fatigue is a factor in stopping the rush game. I think the disagreements are about gamestyle. The claim that the slower style requires less skill doesn't match my game experiences. If a player has an opponent coming back and defeating him after the opponent's main army routed, that player hasn't mastered the slow game. You have to be selective about what you chase and what you chase with.

I made my comment to Kocmoc because he said the game only needed some small changes, but he's gone beyond that now from my point of view with his requests for changes. The more things you change the more iterations you need to get it right. You can't make major changes and have it come out right the first time.

Magyar Khan

05-27-2003, 00:48

btw elm remember my post a month when game was released about a few knight routing 30+ men. any unitbonus should be adjusted to the unitsize. which may be not programmable due to loss of clockcycles tho.

another thing that should not happen with any new system or florin level is the efectivity of "cav-throwing". or we need to add cav eaters.

FearSimbol

05-27-2003, 01:16

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ May 26 2003,14:20)]Simbol,

The fatigue is preventing a faster gamestlye. Reducing fatigue is fine, but I would hope it wasn't taken so far as to eliminate the slow gamestyle where fatigue is a factor in stopping the rush game. I think the disagreements are about gamestyle. The claim that the slower style requires less skill doesn't match my game experiences. If a player has an opponent coming back and defeating him after the opponent's main army routed, that player hasn't mastered the slow game. You have to be selective about what you chase and what you chase with.

I made my comment to Kocmoc because he said the game only needed some small changes, but he's gone beyond that now from my point of view with his requests for changes. The more things you change the more iterations you need to get it right. You can't make major changes and have it come out right the first time.
Yuki you are my friend you know it, i am really afraid to respond to you and get baned but i have to....

M8 you are second me in all the dam thing i am teling, fatigue is ok, but units get TIRED TO FAST TOOOOO FAST that is the only thing THEY TIRED TOO FAST i cant march normal speed or fast to flank my enemy cause i lost 2 bars, and i pray for a flat map or i will lost 3 bars...

M8 only think i want tell is, (please forgive my english but i am from venezuela) people is free in MTW, VI, STW, MI those games like to people because let you use tactics free, that mean you can play with horse arches to anoying my flanks, or you can use all CAVS, or you can use turtle formations, or escorpion formations many but many things you can use to win to your enemy..

That is why we love Totalwar games, because you make your own tactis. So i think you cant cut to the game the posibility of play fast games and also slow games.

Remember this a Good General have to know how to react to all situations what about in the real life if a gen only know how to play in slow way and a general like AMP charge him??? he have to know what to do...

So my point is, every one can play as he like but we have notice that now units tired to fast and we have to control our style of game to one more slow, cus if you are too tired(exausted) your units rout some times whitouth contact and not matter if you have more units than your enemy i think that is unfair.

So a game like MTW, VI to my opinion dont need put limits to a player game style, is not about Game Speed, is about Game Style Speed, you can have fun playing slow or you can have fun playing fast it must be your choice, a game like MTW or VI if for every kind of player not only slow players.

Hope our friendship is not afected for what i think, and hope dont hurt anybody feelings but this is the true... If you love fast style of games why you have to play slow?? if you like flank with the hole army why you cant???? just want opend the mind of players....

And BTW i love MTW and Love VI is one of the best games i have played ever, in fact i Live in Venezuela i travel to miami to buy MTW cause here i cant buy it, And fucy buy for me VI in USA and send it to me, cause i cant get it here in Venezuela. So i am not blaming nobody, i am just exposing my point of view to all of you and i hope this dam topic get closed by a desent moderator to make this shit stop.

Bye all, simba send a hug to all his friends.

Mo0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0M0o0o0o0oMMo0o0o0o0o

ElmarkOFear

05-27-2003, 01:37

Well consider all of yourselves invited to my 4v4 games. 5 or 6k, small unit size, fatigue off, and can only upgrade wep and armor. If anything it will fun playing a different way that someone hasnt perfected a perfect army for Like AMP, SIMBOL, NC, and THING in that darned 10k game last night hehe I got run over by the Fear steamroller. NC to my front, Simbol on my left flank and AMP with his massive spear & cav rush. IT WAS UGLY I MUST TELL YA

Mitch, "Slim Shadey" aye? hehe

Div Hunter

05-27-2003, 01:53

Me too, me too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I'll be in on that sounds very interesting Elmo. What eras do you play in? Would also help me get a more realistic grip on the morale effects on troops with no valour upgrades.

ElmarkOFear

05-27-2003, 02:03

we will start with the viking era, then early, high and late. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

FearofFucy

05-27-2003, 05:12

what about me EL.

http://www.fucyuman.com/ubb/graemlins/wall.gif

FearofFucy

05-27-2003, 05:13

lol wrong post wasnt there

http://www.fucyuman.com/ubb/graemlins/poke.gif

FearofFucy

05-27-2003, 05:16

hmm when i am gonna get the fear tag???

http://www.fucyuman.com/ubb/graemlins/cry.gif

Kocmoc

05-27-2003, 06:59

1 more important point are the elite units i did love this idea it opened new way to play, but now after months i think it brougth a lot of porblems. more problems as advances. the whole rout-an-army is gone ifu mix normal units with elite units.

imo it should be just 1 unittype, this would make it much more easy.

all i think about is, that in MTW/VI happens a lot of very odd things, things we see and say "uff or lol". many times the outcome of a game is jsut weird.

koc

Dionysus9

05-27-2003, 07:20

im not saying anything

*ziiiiiip*

shingenmitch2

05-27-2003, 13:05

Hi Amp --

We agree that the "doubled" unit should break. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I would not want that Byz to win in that situation. We differ on how quickly it should break and if that break should definitely start a chain-rout.

My opinion is that the doubled unit should break after it loses a decent amount of men (say 1/3). In a low Koku game, the morale of all allied units is very low and thus this one unit breaking will, 9 times out of 10, start a chain-rout. I don't think this should necessarily happen. I believe a the chain should have a chance of occuring, but nowhere close to 90%. In our example, now that I've beaten the one unit, it should be easier for me to move on to the next unit adding the 2 free units and win that next matchup--my chances of winning the battle are going up anyway.

I don't agree that low koku = better tactics. Low koku = different tactics. It means instead of playing the game more like traditional attrition/position warfare, I'm playing primarily for that first unit break. I get that 1 break first and I've defeated my opponent's entire army no matter what good stuff he's doing anywhere else. I just don't think that after breaking 1 unit it should neccessarily be game-over for my opponent. Maybe he's been making a maneuver that is taking a little longer to develop but will envelope more of my army... perhaps even tho I broke him in 1 spot, i really ought to lose. A slightly higher morale makes the rest of his line more resistant to "catching the chain rout.", but not immune. I think that is a good thing.

Low koku is an all-or-nothing style of game predicated on the first break. I don't find that to be as much "fun" as a game where reserves can hold and then fill gaps and actually get some secondary maneuvers going. You are correct, however, that in large multies, the higher koku doesn't make it as possible for one player to be able to easily run 3 or 4 others off the map. There is far more dependence on your allies to do serious damage to their guy. As a team-game, that doesn't bother me... the better Team should win not the team with the best single player.

I was not including the fatigue issue in the above post because I see that as a somewhat separate issue. I agree with the problems it creates after the first army is defeated and do think its effects should be lessened or somehow mitigated.

---------
Fucy -- nice emoticons ... that one with the stick got me chuckling... remined me of Eric Cartman poking the snake... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Puzz3D

05-27-2003, 14:22

Simbol,

I asked for a reduction in fatigue in MTW on Sept 9th, 2002. I suggested a 50% reduction, but put a question mark on that figure since I have no way to test it. LongJohn recently said the fatigue wasn't adjusted for the larger size maps.

These were my suggestions to LongJohn for VI:
Multiplayer Balance Thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=18;t=5724;st=25)

I don't want to see the game turned into a rush gamestyle where armies get blown away like a feather and you don't have enough time to react to situations. Of course, what constitues 'enough time' will vary from player to player. The final result would have to be a compromise. The fast style and slow style gameplay would not actually coexist. They would blend into a new gameplay somewhere in between the fast and slow.

Swoosh So

05-27-2003, 14:34

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif I miss playing with mitch Hehe mitch could let you know what tactic you just used (or the real name for it) without you knowing what it was http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

shingenmitch2

05-27-2003, 15:00

Hey swooshie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Where u been online?

tootee

05-27-2003, 16:18

what a massive thread. i have headache following it. very nice readings, some nasty words, a bit of confusion.

key words:
tolerance of differences in opinions.

respect others' views, as well as game-styles (you can complain about it, but please dont label it as evil/wrong).

if you wanna shoot at someone's face, please start a new thread of appropriate title, so that it makes thing easier for me.. so that it wouldn't hijack a worthy thread.. so that I can close it, and give you a week or two. You feel good after venting your anger, and I can do my job much more efficiently.. and JF will not degenerate into just an exchange of nasty words. A win-win situation.

Total freedom-of-speech is just an idealogy for the ignorance.. no good effective organisation practises it.

---
NC understands the penalty of his act.. its a calculated decision he had made and I respect it.. so all, please respect his decision.. the 2 weeks stays.

Magyar Khan

05-27-2003, 19:58

i am not saying nc is too stupid to understand but i wonder if he understand it or i am stupid too. seems my topics attract many people.

symbol made a good point where he said that esp in stw mi u mak eyour own tactic. esp archery musket rock scissor was very nice. spears vs cav. the whole concept gives u feeling ur in control of your army and what u do with it. i have an mi replay donwloadable at wolf site on how u can attack 4th kawansaki with a balanced army, if i would replay that battle in mtw vi i think it shows the difference clearly.

about skills and different skills. i remember a guy in old shog/mi who always hosted 99999 koku games. the first game u loose, the second was much more even and the 3rd u win. why? cuz teh skill was in teh unitpicking and a little above average movement.

and rememeber Lordteds low koku games. too low for most but a different skill. but compared with the former exampla much more ways to solve the puzzle of breaking teh enemy.

in teh first example all unittypes were reduced to just 3 most valuable ones, ashis nagcav nodachi

in teh second almost any unit had his value, even the kensai, teh horsearcher and ninjas. one above average nmistake and the game was lost.

i didnt test it yet in mtw vi i think teh low florin games tend to limited use of units instead of increasing it.

all in all not a solid scientific case.

units tire too fast, splitting armies is dangerous, bunching them up is better, combat prevails shooting, horses in general are still most valuable trooptypes for the non-viking eras. wide lines are too effective and should be restricted by unit types. the list goes on. vi is better than mtw, but teh number of lol-battles are reduced but still available for the unaware.

shingenmitch2

05-27-2003, 20:17

I agree w/ most of what you said there Magy.

But part of the reason you can't compare STW 4th Kwan to VI 4th Kwan is that they ARE different games, with different units and some actual game mechanics differences.

Monks & muskets made play go in a direction in STW., the Super Ashi changed play for MI, play has again changed with the increase to Cav. and all other new units. One is not necessarily "better" than other, just different.

Also I have not been recommending games that are all V4 units and 99,999 Florins. I don't like that feel as much as i don't like 1,000 Florins. Shades of grey... not black & white. I only offer that at 15,000 things seem about right to me and is a nice balance point between the two extremes. I also find 12,000 okay. Lower than that is "too much rout," whereas 20,000 or higher per army I think is "too much hold. "

AMPage

05-27-2003, 21:47

Hi Mitch,

Yes, you're right that most of the time 9 out of 10 the unit that gets doubled will rout and cause a chain rout at low florins. It dosn't always happen that way, i've had chain routs stopped by allies coming in to help them *properly*, and i also lost a few even though i got a chain rout started 1st before he got one started on my other flank. The more skill comes into play for me here cause it's all about protecting your flanks best you can and if both are good players it's about doing the best 1on1 match-ups possible or trying to preform movement tricks (running a few units back and have the enemy chase you behind your lines to get blasted by missiles or doubled).

I think 15k to me is a little to much, cause you have some cav units that fight near death or till death as well as a few other units, and the 100 unit sized units sometimes take forever to kill off or can withstand a rear attack cause of there 100 unit size. At 5k games lots of units will hold just as long, if you keep moral up( protect flanks and good match-ups). And even if you get chain routed and no fully out sometimes you can still rally and win. I played NC in a few 1K games, i had him on the run, and he rallied a few units back up as i was fighting off his last unit, came back and won it with his cav flanking me.

Well.. Anyway everyone has there own feel for what's best and it's seems when i log on most like higher florins, so maybe it's just me, times are changing, i'm one of the few addicted to the fast routing fast gameplay style.

Hi Mag,

I agree with most of what you said..

Quote[/b] ]Mag
symbol made a good point where he said that esp in stw mi u mak eyour own tactic. esp archery musket rock scissor was very nice. spears vs cav. the whole concept gives u feeling ur in control of your army and what u do with it. i have an mi replay donwloadable at wolf site on how u can attack 4th kawansaki with a balanced army, if i would replay that battle in mtw vi i think it shows the difference clearly.
Very ture, in stw and mi the skilled player really prevailed, cause unit balance was good, unit sizes were mostly the same, rear and flanks hurt more, and you were in control of your army all the way.

Quote[/b] ]Mag
about skills and different skills. i remember a guy in old shog/mi who always hosted 99999 koku games. the first game u loose, the second was much more even and the 3rd u win. why? cuz teh skill was in teh unitpicking and a little above average movement.

Well in mongol era i couldn't be one of these guys who hosted 99,999 koku and was the mongols and i was the japs. No match-up matter and not even hill adv, he even had units facing backwards in a ball when he started and just marched uphill and attacked me with whatever came 1st and won no matter what. In the other era it was about monks, hc, and sometimes yari sam to counter hc, since units fought till death. Totally spoils it the main purpose of it all the *moral*.

Quote[/b] ]Mag
and rememeber Lordteds low koku games. too low for most but a different skill. but compared with the former exampla much more ways to solve the puzzle of breaking teh enemy.

Totally, it was about skill...

Quote[/b] ]Mag
in teh first example all unittypes were reduced to just 3 most valuable ones, ashis nagcav nodachi

Before the patch in MI all you really needed was ashi to win. All cause upgrades were to cheap and no in mtw:vi i hardly use weapon and armor upgrades, maybe some armor upgrades on missile units. And do i want to play with atleast 30k to use wep and arm upgrades more? Hell no.

Quote[/b] ]Mag
in teh second almost any unit had his value, even the kensai, teh horsearcher and ninjas. one above average nmistake and the game was lost.

Yup almost every unit, it still needed some tweaking but it was close.

Quote[/b] ]Mag
units tire too fast, splitting armies is dangerous, bunching them up is better, combat prevails shooting, horses in general are still most valuable trooptypes for the non-viking eras. wide lines are too effective and should be restricted by unit types. the list goes on. vi is better than mtw, but teh number of lol-battles are reduced but still available for the unaware.
Units tire to fast, yes they do cause people play at higher florins and units fight longer, thus tiring them out more, also bad weather dosn't help, i guess it's all for the realism tho. Splitting armies is dangerous, not always, since units fight for sometime. Combat prevails shooting, yes big time. Yup non-missile cav in general are still the best unit, cause that's what they wanted for historical purposes, not gameplay, even though this is a game *strategy game* that is. The wide lines wouldn't be as painful if all units had counters, like cav lose badly to spears and if we had a missile unit like the musket in stw/mi that could mow down head-on attacks like that. And the list goes on...

Magyar Khan

05-27-2003, 23:52

amp u doubling your post count this week

longjohn ha sa lot to ponder about, since the game-system and engine or at least the ideas behind the code needs a lot of improvments for rtw

FearSimbol

05-28-2003, 00:12

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ May 27 2003,04:22)]Simbol,

1.-

I don't want to see the game turned into a rush gamestyle where armies get blown away like a feather and you don't have enough time to react to situations. Of course, what constitues 'enough time' will vary from player to player. The final result would have to be a compromise.

2.-
The fast style and slow style gameplay would not actually coexist. They would blend into a new gameplay somewhere in between the fast and slow.
Hi my friend.

about number 1, i know you dont want that the question is what all people want.. you as beta tester and a powerfull guy in contac with CA people (and you do a great work) plz trie do what people want..

about number 2, you now that is not true, just jesterday Mo and you beat me badly and my game style is fast and yours is slow you make me slow down my game and you win after all, so my point is proved you can control all situations with right skils..

Ask magy, paolay and Kocmoc they dont play rush games and dont play fast game style like me, and when they face me they know how control my moves and make me slow down and yes they Beat me with slow style of game vs Fast style of game.

i am not saying we have to change the speed of the units, i dont like preatorians that is more like a arcade game, i am saying that if i want play fast i dont have the change cus my units will be in bad situations vs yours, cus my mens will be tired and lose moral...

You saw yesterday i trie rush Mo arches with my Cavs that was like 200 meters of run they lose 1 bar for that, and i put they behind my army for 7 minutes they never get again they 4 bar of stamina. that is only a litle Example (i know you ask reduce fatigue i only want you understand me plz, i dont want attack you, and maybe this word will reatch some important people that take desitions m8). And the worse is that now cavs not gain valor during batle so, now they get tired for run and rout now more easy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Hope you understand me.

bye all

M0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o

Swoosh So

05-28-2003, 12:21

Sigh* if only magyar and amp worked for ca, id be back in the battlefield http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif I can dream

spacecadet

05-28-2003, 12:33

Quote[/b] (FearSimbol @ May 28 2003,00:12)]Ask magy, paolay and Kocmoc they dont play rush games and dont play fast game style like me, and when they face me they know how control my moves and make me slow down and yes they Beat me with slow style of game vs Fast style of game.
Being a very good player means that you can play differently depending on the situation, not in just the one way.

ps all this talk before about being able to charge through /sideswipe units etc...i can't remember the last time i could get my main infantry army to charge instead of walk slowly up to the opposing army....CTRL R, double clicks..nothing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Space

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

Puzz3D

05-28-2003, 13:02

Simbol,

I'm not in contact with CA. I have never been in contact with anyone at CA except on these boards. I didn't determine the gamebalance of MTW. I resign from the beta team. You happy now? Now is it ok if I express my opinon?

You say my second point isn't true, and then you go on to prove my second point with your example. I think you didn't understand what I said. I said, "The fast style and slow style gameplay would not actually coexist. They would blend into a new gameplay somewhere in between the fast and slow.". You see the words 'not coexist'? That means the fast gamestyle and the slow gamestyle would not both work at the same time. If you reduce fatigue, some new gamestyle which is faster than the slow, but slower than the fast would become the best one to use. This would come about by changing fatigue not unit speed. Is someone advocating changing unit speed?

Your attack failed and you were controlled in both of those games because your opponents were pacing their game closer to what is dictated by the game parameters. I think you also used spears, and that costs you combat power. You used wide line cav on me. It didn't work. The cav is weaker in VI, and from what I can gather from this forum most players wanted weaker cav. You were on the defender's side in both those games, but you attacked. In one, you left a hill to do it. After that game your ally said to me, "why did he attack?". That position had very good defensive characteristics. I can see attacking me in the other game because you had a 2 on 1, but it wasn't coordinated well. Your ally didn't attack until after you had been repelled.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about being down 2 bars in fatigue. There is only a minor penalty for that. We don't know if those bars are evenly spaced. Two bars may not mean 1/2 your stamina is gone even though it's 1/2 the bars. I was the one who had the greater distance to march, so I was down a bit also.

I have confidence that LongJohn will set game parameters to something he thinks will satisfy the largest number of people. Read my VI patch suggestions. The only thing I got was this one (which is a clear bug):

1) Longbow's speed parameter is too low for them to shoot their full range of 6000. They will go through a firing animation as thouigh they are shooting at max range, but no projectile is released.