STW vs MTW

[Losfalos]

Hi. this is not a vote.

What tiny elements in STW make it better than MTW?

I saw a lot of great STW players say they are not really happy with MTW (gently put) and i was curious to discuss how STW is better.

I have STW. Tried it once but it was too slow. Now with the new computer will tryi again. I think STW has a campaign map too I remember hoping it would be like Sword of the Samurai from the 286 PC days...

Now.. my impression: STW battles would be more swift, the campaign era more fatalistic, the game more deadly and final in its event resolution. MTW by comparison would be a bit dudly and slooow... but then i likte MTW bcos bcos... uhoh.. I know bcos its kind of armchair slow

But overall i prefer Japan. Its just that my HDD is super packed out (and i havent figured out the diffs between a ashigeru and a nagata etc )

[The_Emperor]

Shogun is cool, and I like a few things about it that wer enot included in MTW such as the Throne room and Those really cool event movies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Sure it may not have as many units as MTW but it is good. While I do slightly prefer MTW, STW does have its own joy.

[Losfalos]

Emperor?

Actually, I read earlier that the throne room and the in game video was good (from you probably)..

what is the throne room used for? (why is it good)

in game video - you mean its cool when the assassin goes in and scores? or is it liek the video starts the same and you dont know if he will score until the end of the show?

that would be so nice.. like a new movie each time

that's all a bit like Sword of the Samurai because you would send in an assassin and sometimes the cartoon movie would show him flunk it.. or if you are the assassin you could easily flunk it running around inside the dojo (somehow if you make too much noise every samurai in the compound starts chasing you down the corridors)

[Dîn-Heru]

The throne room is great imo because it adds athmosphere to the game, it also gives you the chance to see an overall map of Japan which shows who owns what piece of land.

The Event movies have to endings for ninjas, one sucess and one failure. The movies depend on the target, there are 7 movies, each with two endings, so in fact there are 14. (but two of them are actually the same, so it is only 13) You can't really tell if it is a sucsess or not untill the end. For the Geisha the event movies also depend on target, but because the Geisha never fails these can get boring after a while, espesially if generals are the only targets left.

Shogun is in some regards better becuase it is more intimate, medieval can seem a bit too grand and large at times.

Oh, and yes there is a campaign map, that is the genious part of these games, it is a two in one deal. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ichi]

The in-game movies were the best. Cav archers were very fun in STW. The map was well made and created interesting problems.

simpler, smaller, faster. Diplomacy stunk - count on other clans to backstab you first chance.

Ashigaru are japanese peasants. Yari are spears. Naginata are defensive troops. Buddhist kick ass.

Maybe just best 'cause it was first.

ichi

[Elwe]

Quote[/b] (ichi @ May 18 2003,23:30)]Maybe just best 'cause it was first.
Hit the nail on the head right there... Too many people focus on what MTW doesn't have compared to STW, instead of looking at, and enjoying, the extras it does have instead. I couldn't play STW again after MTW... it lacks too much in the siege, unit difference and diplomacy areas.

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[Mount Suribachi]

The comparative simplicity of STW lends it a certain charm in my eyes. There are only around 12 units and they all have their uses on the battlefield, even peasants (super-ashsis anyone?) So what if MTW has 100 units? Many of them are very similar or ineffective. MTW is great, but can get very sprawling and unwieldy very quickly. Still a great game tho. And I like VI becos its simpler game reminds me of STW. STW had terrific atmosphere as well, it had a real feudal japan feel to it. MTW has great atmosphere too, but I think STW just shades it on that count.

[Losfalos]

Mount Suribachi - yes i think STW would shade MTW on atmosphere - i like medieval but asia/japan has that much more of an exotic charm..

so... VI isn't a sub campaign in MTW huh? VI is a totally seprate game from MTW? it look sthat way in the screeenshots cos the map is too big relative to MTW's england and europe.

hopefully, VI has really good viking/danes/saxon/angles/picts/scots/welsh intrigue - i hope they have druids?

how about Edward the Redeless? (the Unready guy)

there has to be drinking contests? and i hope there are points for capturing women? (being an important pasttime then)

[LeeJackson]

The music in STW rocked, and the intro screen with the shadows of soldiers running up a hill.

STW just had superior atmosphere. The music, the intro movie, the event movies, the throne room all sucked you in that extra bit. MTW just lacks these things. Pure game play wise MTW is superior, it just lacked that little extra spit and polish that STW had... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Mount Suribachi]

The thing about polish – I remember when STW was pending. All the mags reviewed it, praised it to the heavens and said it would be released “next month”. Then for about 3 months, there was no sign of the game and I specifically remember a couple of mags saying “we have no idea why the game hasn’t been released”. Then suddenly, from nowhere almost, the game was released and everyone rejoiced Obviously CA was spending 3 months “polishing” the game – and it shows.

Contrast MTW, which I’m sure everyone remembers Darkmoor Dragon had a beta copy of. I remember him saying that his version still had bugs and gameplay tweaks needed (many of which we’re still waiting for – stackable agents, better info management etc.). Suddenly, that version went gold and was released within a week. Obviously Activision got tired of waiting and decided to ship the game – and it shows.

Having said that I still prefer MTW – especially the shoggy-like VI (tho I don’t have a choice cos my gfx card don’t like Shoguns battles one bit&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Sockeye]

I enjoyed the intimacy of Shogun - campaign was smaller, units were similar to all factions, so you knew what you were up against.
VI does replicate that somewhat, with a smaller campaign map resulting in more intense games, and very similar units with only a few specials. It's certainly re-kindled my interest (much to my wife's annoyance http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif )

Maybe it's just my brain can't contain all of M:TW's sprawlingness, whereas I feel VI and S:TW are just about right.
I still can't wait for R:TW though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Cheers,
Sockeye

[Portuguese Rebel]

There are little details in STW that give it a certain charm...
But in overall MTW is a superior game IMO. More complex, a lot more factors to have in account.
But i think the real question is that STW came first. Every number two of a series that come out has its number of disappointed people. This is mainly because they enjoyed the first game so much that they expect that the next game be... actually game number 1 with a few not significant extras. This is why IMO many game companys have been making expansion packs and not investing in real follow ups.

[Longasc]

I miss the Throne Room and the little ingame movies

But I prefer the medieval setting and the more variants of troop types in Medieval, and with VI additions it really has the better interface (Save before battles e.g.).

The only thing is, how different will be ROME: Total War with its new graphics engine, will it really become as good as many here hope?

[Jacque Schtrapp]

One of the things I miss about Shogun is the familiarity I had with the maps. Whether you were attacking or defending you always knew exactly which hill to defend or where the best routes were to flank the enemy. When the battle began you often had to go looking for the enemy instead of beginning the battle within arrow shot of the opposing forces. Then there was an exotic feel to the Shogun troop assortment that is lacking in MTW since most of us are far more familiar with western history than with the far east. Finally, the thing I miss the most is the discovery of Shogun, a whole new type of strategy game, and the real palpable sense of excitement that came with exploring new provinces at the head of an army for the first time. I distinctly remember stumbling on Hojo warrior monks hidden in the trees and the desperate fight that ensued, my first bridge battle and how horribly my forces got slaughtered trying to force their way across, and the very first time my ashigaru ran up against musketmen and routed to a man as I frantically tried to rally them.

MTW is a great game, however, it is merely similar to Shogun but on a more grandiose scale. I have enjoyed both a great deal and look forward to RTW and the vast changes it promises as an opportunity to renew the excitement.

[Lehesu]

Yeah, I like Shoguns battle maps better. They were not just a bunch of ambigous desert/hilly/coastal nonsense. They were actually the maps from the provinces. And the maps didnt change. So one could get used to assaulting or defending a position and certain provinces had much more value because of the terrain. MTW, unfortunantly, refreshes the map every time a we get a random map for the province.

[Longasc]

Hm, Lehesu, how about a patch for Medieval:

The defender choses one map of 5-6 available maps for the defence of that province. If a fortess is there and assaulted, he has of course NO choice... -> then its the fortress map.

I do not think that would be TOO difficult to implement.

Perhaps someone should mail that to CA for ROME: TW?

I am lazy, if someone here can tell me a E-Mail Adress of the Creative Assembly for such suggestion, just tell me, and I will write them. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] (Lehesu @ May 26 2003,09:26)]Yeah, I like Shoguns battle maps better. They were not just a bunch of ambigous desert/hilly/coastal nonsense. They were actually the maps from the provinces. And the maps didnt change. So one could get used to assaulting or defending a position and certain provinces had much more value because of the terrain. MTW, unfortunantly, refreshes the map every time a we get a random map for the province.
Actually this is one of the things i did not particularly enjoy about STW. The same maps over and over again.
And in MTW the maps are not randomized. I've discovered this while playing around modding. It appears there is a map for each kind of atack (from the south, from the north... and so on). It appears random due to the endless number of situations. When you play MTW for a while you will get repeating maps, there is just so much more of them...

And when you think of it... how real does it feel to have several battles at the exact same tiny bit of land? I prefer that ambigous desert/hilly/caostal nonsense... But STW will allways be close to my heart http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kekvit Irae]

I hate STW with a passion. No variety of units between the factions, and it's far too easy to dominate the battlefield with just three men, all of them Kensai.
If battle is not your forte, just find the enemy Daimyo and sent out a Gaisha against him. She never dies unless an assassin or another Gaisha goes after her, and she's automatic.
And you have to experience the Legendary Swordsman event just to build the Sword Dojo? Ugh.
And dont even get me started on the throne room. Thank the gods that it was optioned out in Mongol Invasion.
The only good thing about the game was the music.

Funny thing is that this seething hatred only developed once I got my hands on MTW and saw how much more friendlier the user interface was.

Anyway, my two florins.

[Lehesu]

I am not completely dissatsified with M:TW approach to the maps; the provinces are a lot bigger than S:TW. However, sometimes I wish that certain landmarks would be the same. If you have a province that has a certain very easily defended ridge line, I would like it to be somewhere on the map on most of the battles. The place where you deploy the defense may not always be the same, but the landmarks should have some congruity.

[Cazbol]

I love both STW and MTW, with MTW being a favorite. There was however one thing in STW that I really hated, and that was the geishas. Late in the game the armies would become insignifant, as the real battles were fought by geishas. I wanted to control armies but not prostitutes. (Save that for Pimp Tycoon http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) I tried a campaign were I killed just about every single faction leader and all their heirs with geishas. The rest of the game was then about wiping out rebels.

They've fortunately downgraded this in MTW's inquisitors, although I don't like them either, but you can of course avoid them by playing non-catholic factions, although they can still terrorise your population.

When I finish my current campaign in MTW I think I'll refresh my acquaintance with STW.

[Sir Robin]

This is something I am really looking forward to with RTW.

Having thousands of battle maps all sewn together to make a mediteranean quilt.

I liked Shogun because of its simplicity and atmosphere.

I love Medieval because of its variety and size. Yes it suffers from the vanilla-units and conquer-everything AI, but there are many units that are distinct.

The VI exp seems to form a bridge between the two. Odd but it feels like VI is more of a souped up STW than condensed MTW.

For now I continue to play MTW and impatiently wait for RTW.