Irish Bonnachts

[goldenarms]

What is this unit good for?
and how do I use it?

any tips regarding the bonnachts?

[LordKhaine]

Throw spears, charge and go raaaaaaarrghhhhhhhhhh

But seriously, try and use the spears before using them as regular fighters. I haven't used the unit much yet but I've seen a salvo kill as many as ten people.

[Rocket_Boy]

Bonnachts are an excellent unit, sort of a cross between kerns and gallowglass'. They have to get in close to unload those spears but will devastate whatever unit they hit. They are best used against units with high armour since their spears/javelins pretty much ignore the targets armour value. They onlyhave enough missiles for about 5 attacks per man but they really do damage They have combat stats almost as good as gallowglasses so get them stuck in as soon as their ammo is gone and they'll fare pretty ok against all but the heaviest enemy troops.

My fave tactic is to hold up the most powerful enemy units (esp. cav) with spears and quickly run some bonnachts round the back, destroying the enemy first with missiles and then with their charge.

[goldenarms]

thanks guys

They will be a useful addition to my army in the conquest of Britain moahahah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[LordKhaine]

Good thing about the Irish troops is that they all have very low support costs. You can support 2 units of Bonnachts for the same cost of one spear unit, if I remember correctly. Means you can outnumber the enemy by miles and still have money http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

be sure you put them on "hold formation" if they're spear chuckers

[MalibuMan]

surround a close combat unit with bonnachts, start chucking spears, and the unit will get confused and not know who to charge. Once you're out of ammo, charge and massacre - they're almost as good on the charge as gallows. If the unit doesn't get confused and does charge, just all pile on and kill them anyway with your excellent attack.

Their spears are absolutely lethal, partly because there are 100 men in a unit

[Daevyll]

They are top in defense.
Take them off Skirmish mode, line them up on a hill and watch them chuck 2 to three volleys into the enemy before they reach them.
Then when HTH does occur, they more than hold their own. Superb troops.

On the offense they're trickier to use well, and require some micromanagement to be effective. Good flankers at any rate, and pretty cheap.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]They are top in defense.
Take them off Skirmish mode, line them up on a hill and watch them chuck 2 to three volleys into the enemy before they reach them....

Two to three volleys? What are you talking about? According to the unit file the Bonnachts sport a unique missile weapon called 'Heavy_Spear' (quite powerful with an extremely short range) of which they only carry a SINGLE round

[Jazzman]

Bonnachts? dont have VI yet but are you sure this is correct? there is area in ireland called the Connacht, not heard of Bonnacht, if this is not misspell, can someone clue me in on historical signif of Bonnacht with a B?

[Jacque Schtrapp]

What I fail to comprehend about the bonnie bonnachts is why a spear unit runs from my cavalry like a missle unit would. I have fought several battles against the Irish and I've found that I am far more likely to be charged by Irish Dartmen than Bonnachts. This is strange as I would think a spear unit would hold its ground, toss a few javelin salvos, and either counter-charge or absord the oncoming forces. Instead they run. Go figure.

[Rocket_Boy]

Thats because their default setting is 'skirmish' like a missile unit rather than 'hold ground' like a spear unit. The ai can't use them properly.

[MalibuMan]

Quote[/b] (Spino @ May 20 2003,09:59)]Two to three volleys? What are you talking about? According to the unit file the Bonnachts sport a unique missile weapon called 'Heavy_Spear' (quite powerful with an extremely short range) of which they only carry a SINGLE round
they definitely have more than one round - cos i've used them so many times But that could be a mistake, cos the description does imply they only have one.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Jacque Schtrapp @ May 20 2003,10:14)]What I fail to comprehend about the bonnie bonnachts is why a spear unit runs from my cavalry like a missle unit would.
Are you sure about them being a spear unit with their secondary (non-ranged) attack? I am almost sure I do not see anti-cavalry bonus values in their stats (would be a number in brackets following the standard stats) when pressing F1 on the battlefield.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]they definitely have more than one round - cos i've used them so many times But that could be a mistake, cos the description does imply they only have one.

My sources are the actual unit and projectilestat text files that are used by the game Keep in mind the game tracks Ammo levels for every single man in a unit and when any given unit fires its missiles that does not always mean every single man is firing at the same time. I think what you experienced was when some of the men in those Bonnacht units failed to throw their heavy spears at the onset of hostilities with the remainder throwing theirs at a later time. This can happen especially if the unit is in Skirmish mode and is constantly running to a fro or is under pressure to do so. It is the same with archer or crossbow and arbalester units who, after much moving about, never seem to fire off as large a volley as they did when they fired at the enemy for the first time and from a respectable distance.

This 'unsynchronized' behavior is perfectly logical because when a missile unit has 'Fire at Will' enabled and moves from one place to another the men who get into position first immediately begin reloading their weapons and firing at nearby targets even while other men in their unit are still getting into position. In order to reset the unit for mass volleys you have to disable Fire at Will and wait until everyone has reloaded their weapon before assigning them a specific target or enabling Fire at Will again.

[ChaosLord]

Are you sure they fight with spears normally? If I remember the Bonnachts description right it talks of the spear being the preferred secondary weapon of many Celts. Which I took to mean they chucked the spears then switched to swords. Also, the only reason you might have more volleys is if not all the Bonnachts could atttack, if you've got several ranks deep they're not all gonna be able to throw, especially with how short the range is. So it may take several volleys from the ones close enoug to hit them to lose all the ammo.

[MalibuMan]

yeah that makes sense, and it would take a while for them to run out because the unit size is 100.

[bhutavarna]

bonnacht is not a strong unit by any means. In fact I worry more about gallowglasses when facing the Irish. Despite being a 100 men unit, their low morale makes them easy to rout. And I think Kristaps is right, bonnacth is not really a spear type.

[Hakonarson]

Bonnachts historically started as javelinmen and seem to have widely adopted axes as well under viking influence as time wore on.

[pdoan8]

Bonnachts carry one heavy spear each, but not all men throw their spear at the same time as Spino explained, 2-3 salvo is common.

They have high melee (5), so I think they carry axe or sword as the main weapon. They have the default setting on skirmish because of the heavy throwing spear (missile). The strong point of Bonnachts is their high melee, good charge and 100 men size. Very good stats for flanking. The AP throwing heavy-spears are very powerful. A good salvo can kill around 20 men. Like all other javellin unit types, do not use them on skirmish.

[Daevyll]

Quote[/b] (Spino @ May 20 2003,09:59)]
Quote[/b] ]They are top in defense.
Take them off Skirmish mode, line them up on a hill and watch them chuck 2 to three volleys into the enemy before they reach them....

Two to three volleys? What are you talking about? According to the unit file the Bonnachts sport a unique missile weapon called 'Heavy_Spear' (quite powerful with an extremely short range) of which they only carry a SINGLE round
Not every man fires at once Mr Intellect.
If a 100 man unit has 100 ammo, and only 50 men fire, then there is 50 ammo left.

Play the game before you comment.

[MalibuMan]

Daevyll,

we've sorted this one out already but thanks for your help -you are of course correct. Wasn't that hit @spino at tad harsh though?

[Daevyll]

Quote[/b] (MalibuMan @ May 21 2003,04:38)]Daevyll,

we've sorted this one out already but thanks for your help -you are of course correct. Wasn't that hit @spino at tad harsh though?
Probably http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I'm not a very pleasant person atm due to RL things, my apologies.

[MalibuMan]

none necessary http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Wheatley]

The only encounter I have ever had with Bonnachts was when my Welsh Bandits were raining arrows onto them. Are they actually effective though?

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]Not every man fires at once Mr Intellect.
If a 100 man unit has 100 ammo, and only 50 men fire, then there is 50 ammo left.

Play the game before you comment.

Personal attack aside it is obvious you did not read through the preceding posts before letting loose on me. Since the game tracks ammunition levels for every single soldier and a 100 man unit is listed as having only 1 round of ammo in the unit file then obviously there are a total 100 rounds of ammunition for the entire unit. Nothing I wrote in my original or subsequent posts contradicts this fact.

[Shahed]

100 man Javelinmen. I have been on the receiving end of those unfortunately. They can do very serious damage, in Viking campaign one unit of Bonnies tok out 31 Viking Huscarles, before they ran out of ammo.

[andrewt]

How good is their ranged attack? From projectile stats, it seems to be a very luck-dependant unit as the accuracy is really horrible. They only have 1 shot of their weapon, so it has to be really good since they have the same stats as celtic warriors for double the cost. I'm considering playing Irish next so I want to know.

Also, are dartmen any good?

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]How good is their ranged attack? From projectile stats, it seems to be a very luck-dependant unit as the accuracy is really horrible. They only have 1 shot of their weapon, so it has to be really good since they have the same stats as celtic warriors for double the cost. I'm considering playing Irish next so I want to know.

Also, are dartmen any good?

Heavy spears are just as accurate as javelins (.15 Accuracy) and are much more lethal (4 vs. 2 Lethality).

I've grown quite fond of Bonnachts as they are excellent flankers with a little 'extra'. I usually keep Bonnachts close behind my front line spear units and/or near the flanks and make sure they expend all their heavy spears before rushing them off to fill gaps in my line or for a flanking maneuver. Truthfully I couldn't tell you about the practical application of Dartmen (or Kerns for that matter) because I have little experience with them in campaign games and have never used them in multiplayer battles. When playing the Irish online I am almost always on the offensive and always in a hurry to engage the enemy in melee so Bonnachts are the only spear chucking Celtic unit for me.

Cost/Shield/Charge/Melee(Attack)/Defense/Armor/Morale/Run/Charge

Bonnachts - 1 round of Heavy Spears
250/Small/4/5/-3/1/0/10/11

Irish Dartmen - 7 rounds of Darts
150/Small/3/2/-3/1/0/12/13

Kern - 4 rounds of Javelins
125/None/3/2/-3/1/0/12/13

Darts have nearly twice the range of Heavy Spears and Javelins and are twice as accurate. The downside is that Darts are far less lethal and do not pierce armor. Bonnachts aside, whether to pick Dartmen or Kerns depends on who you are facing. Kerns may lack shields and have only 4 javelins but they are far more valuable against heavily armored opponents.

[Magraev]

They have a problem in common with most Irish troops - they die fast. Still they're probably the best all round unit they have (apart from mounted nobles).