View Full Version : Border Forts
The_Emperor
05-19-2003, 15:05
Ok then guys are Border Forts too effective in VI? Your thoughts please (and your Votes)
some_totalwar_dude
05-19-2003, 15:27
Na there fine this way, but they shouldnt be able to catch every valor5 assassin/spy that passes, maby once in a while.
but I don't realy bother with agents operating outside my country so it doesn't have to be changed IMO.
Yes.
Too effective in catching spies & assasins, increasing the need for special unit hordes. Or is it that special agenst are too ineffective at saving themselves ?
Yep I lose too many spies abroad, saying that at home my generals can sleep all cosy in bed safely hidden by the ever vigilent eye of the Watch Tower.
Losfalos
05-19-2003, 16:00
the thing i hate is losing track of assassins who bravely go after their target deep into enemy territory without my express instructions - then they run into watchtower and suddenly they die ...
and these are 4 / 5 star + guys sad huh
im not certain if it should be changed though. i try to keep track of all my key assassins to ensure they operate on safe ground.
i suspect some princesses are really counter-assassins in disguise though... probably true too.
Quote[/b] (Losfalos @ May 19 2003,08:00)]the thing i hate is losing track of assassins who bravely go after their target deep into enemy territory without my express instructions - then they run into watchtower and suddenly they die ...
and these are 4 / 5 star + guys sad huh
Yeah, I agree. Your high valour assassins etc should not die every time - border forts need to be made less effective.
Demon of Light
05-19-2003, 17:20
High valor assasins do not always die at the hands of border forts. Once, I had Guy of Gisbourne chasing Gregorio d'Medici (4 star Inquisitor) all throughout the map. A good many locations had border forts. Guy evaded these with ease. In fact, his eventual failure to kill Gregorio can in no way be attributed to border forts. Turns out that Gregorio was just faster than Guy...
P.S: That inquisitor later killed a 4 star general and a 6 acumen governor.
MalibuMan
05-19-2003, 21:08
do you get special character strategic agents like you do hero generals? I've had an amazing assassin called Guy of Gisbourne as well - does he just pop up after a set year like the heroes?
and yeah, border forts are definitely overpowered - it is both unrealistic and, more importantly, makes the game less fun.
ChaosLord
05-19-2003, 21:45
Yes, they do seem too effective. But if we made them less effective how would the AI react? They don't choose targets that well right now, and this would give us even more free reign to slaughter their generals and the like.
ShadesWolf
05-20-2003, 06:56
This is something I have not given much thought to.
I dont really build them, thus get alot of generals killed. But I do find a lose alot of Assassins when I get round to building them.
... and then, after CA change it so that the Border Forts aren't so effective, the complaints start to roll in about just how effective the AI's assassins/spies are in killing that general you just managed to get to 5 stars and disrupting the loyalty of your backwater provinces ...
Seems some people see only the 'problems', not the advantages. The AI uses these agents en masse. Do you really want border forts reduced in effectiveness..?
I remember once my border fort captured 5 enemy assassins in a single turn... I would not have liked them to have made it through... the governor of that particular province was highly loyal, extremely high acumen (9 quills), not even a single star and only 1 valour... I could have said goodnight to him if even a level 1 assassin got to him
In case you hadn't guessed, my vote was Leave them how they are now.
Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Brutal DLX
05-20-2003, 07:49
Well, I voted yes because I think the question was aimed at the original campaign after the VI install, and anyone who's started a game there would have to agree that border forts now drastically reduce any undercover pieces that try to enter.
It's much different from v1.1.
The_Emperor
05-20-2003, 08:45
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ May 20 2003,01:49)]Well, I voted yes because I think the question was aimed at the original campaign after the VI install, and anyone who's started a game there would have to agree that border forts now drastically reduce any undercover pieces that try to enter.
It's much different from v1.1.
That is what this is about... The VI Main Campaign, not the previous versions.
Lord Godfrey
05-20-2003, 15:24
Must be a slow news day if we are complaining about border forts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
not quite, check the small wargamer preview for RTW ...
but indeed, BF are too good, I even discussed this in a thread once ...
Demon of Light
05-21-2003, 18:17
Quote[/b] (MalibuMan @ May 19 2003,13:08)]do you get special character strategic agents like you do hero generals? I've had an amazing assassin called Guy of Gisbourne as well - does he just pop up after a set year like the heroes?
and yeah, border forts are definitely overpowered - it is both unrealistic and, more importantly, makes the game less fun.
yes, Guy of Gisbourne is a hero. He was an associate of the Sheriff of Nottingham.
MalibuMan
05-21-2003, 18:54
yeah i know who he was in real history - watching Maid Marian and her Merry Men as a child has to be good for something eh? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
lol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
komninos
05-22-2003, 06:56
What I would like to se in VI and MTW original is the raiding parties that cross the border ass spesial units and retreat in one move. In case of border forts you would have a better chance to intercept these raiders
That was the function of the border forts and that was the way it was in those days
Mount Suribachi
06-01-2003, 12:16
They're so cheap and easy to build too. Plus they give something like +30 happiness on top of catching any spy/assasin who comes near. If they were 1000 florins and 4 turns, I'd be happier with them.
Divine Wind
06-01-2003, 13:09
Quote[/b] (MalibuMan @ May 21 2003,12:54)]yeah i know who he was in real history - watching Maid Marian and her Merry Men as a child has to be good for something eh? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
That program was the best lol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I think it is not (only) the watch towers.
It is the whole system how diplomacy and espionage/assassinations work that needs an overhaul.
Lord Slapshot
06-01-2003, 19:50
I definitely think they are way too powerful. I wish the operation of the strat agents/border forts/etc. were a little more developed. I have a number of comments about this topic in general.
- nothing worse than having your champion assassin mindlessly follow a target and get killed needlessly. There could be a simple check box on the r-click display of the agent which says stop pursuing at friendly borders which you could check or not depending on the valor of the assassin.
- i think there should be a wholly developed tech-tree of border control buildings similar to troop buildings which aid in effectiveness similar to the following: L1 - helps loyalty of local pop, L2a - helps see a FEW enemy units in neighoring province, L2b - helps effectiveness in catching enemy agents, L3a - helps see a few more enemy units, L3b - beefed up L2b, etc. (you can only choose to pursue the a or b branch) and so on.
- They should take longer and be more expensive to build too, to make you really think about whether or not to build them. Its just way too automatic to ALWAYS build border forts in every single province you plan on occupying. You'd be a fool not to. I like how in VI you have to really commit to building farming or not in a province [the whole 16 turns and lots of money], it adds a lot to the strategy. Something similar in MTW would be cool for border forts. It would be cool to decide whether you wish to build an empire which is immune to agents, loyal, or good at scouting the enemy, but dammit make us choose one of the 3 not get all 3 for the low cost of $199.99 florins payable in 1 monthly installment.
- Assassins and spies could be fleshed out with a few ratings such as the generals' Loy-Dre-Com-Acu. Perhaps like MOO3 (although in no way am I saying that MTW become more like MOO3) where they have Cloak (ability to infiltrate opponent) and Dagger (ability to commit an act of espionage) stats. I think there is great but unexploited potential in the stategic agents portion of this game. I'm sure we can come up with ideas on fleshing out Princesses (desirability, potential for espionage) and Bishops/Imams/Priests (charisma, ruthlessness) would make sense as well and make it more fun to use these and more of a thinking man's decision on what to do with certain units. The whole V&V thing is great in my opinion it can be expanded to apply to strat agents too.
Mount Suribachi
06-01-2003, 21:26
Something else to remember is its watch towerS, border fortS ie plural, a string of towers and forts along your frontier, which is why their low cost and build time is unrealistic AND unbalanced.
I agree..they are too effective against spies and assasins
Perhaps should they cost maintenance- ok, that would be a problem because no other structures cost upkeep.
4 Turns and 800 Gold for Border Forts, how about that? And at least a keep in that province e.g. ^^
Red Harvest
06-03-2003, 14:30
They are probably too effective. When I conquer provinces the first thing I do is build watchtowers/forts. It serves several purposes simultaneously: 1. Improves loyalty in the new acquisition (freeing up troops or providing more income.) 2. Prevents assassins from killing off valuable generals and heirs. 3. Prevents spies from creating/discovering nasty hidden vices on heirs, generals, and governors (makes a difference in income because of acumen, loyalty because of embarassment, battle because of some command reducing vices.) 4. Allows me to see into the new borders.
I like the idea of a tree with various kinds of border fort functions. Also agree with having more detailed instructions for assassins such as don't enter territories with foreign border forts
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