Congrats CA

[DthB4Dishonor]

Hail Everyone,

I have only recently been able to play alot of VI v2.0 since my other copy was burglarized. However I have recently played alot of high-late era battles and find the games very very enjoyable. I have played from 10k per to 20k per and all games were very good although I'm leaning towards an amount between 10-15k per. I still have no real comment about viking era balancing as I havent played it much (maybe 5-8 battles in viking era).

Well I see spears stopping cav but not becoming super units like in v1.0 where 8-10 spears were taken. I also see the practicality of cav range units which is really nice and adds a new tactical dimension to the game(very shoggy like).

Well I just wanted to say Congratulations CA and thanks for your work. Seems like they have paid attention to our comments and rants. I think even Magy and Kocmoc can agree that VI v2.0 is a nice move in the right direction.

P.S. it only cost $30 dollars to get a nice patch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

RTKPaul

[Puzz3D]

Hi Paul,


Sorry to hear you lost stuff from burglary. I hope there is something you can do to make your place more secure.

I've moved on to VI v2.0, and I won't be going back. The changes LongJohn made improves the playbalance. Right now it's hard to say how much faction balance is improved, but both Spanish and Byz have been brought down a notch. This past weekend in viking era games I saw Welsh and Scotts doing very well, so it may better balanced than I initially thought. I played two chrisians vs muslims 4v4 high era, 15k per player, games with the same teams swapping sides except for one substitution, and the muslims defending the same flatinland19 arid map in both games. The christians won both games, but I wouldn't count the muslims out quite yet. The horse archer is more useful now which should help the muslims. The removal of the battlefield upgrade may be the most important improvement of the add-on to MP, and I thank LongJohn for making that change.

[Alrowan]

ive got a new love affair with early games now... the armoured spears helped a lot, plus all the new units. Early era is cav archer hell at times, but playing as the people of novgorod, im really impressed at thier strength now

[shingenmitch2]

I'd second the motion.

VI is well done. A bit range-weapon-light, and cav-light for my personal taste, but that is matter of splitting hairs. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. VI appears to be solidly balanced and that is the important thing.

I would agree with others who have mentioned that it "feels" like old shoggy, minus the unstoppable monks :P

With so many new units and general tweeks, it's gonna be quite a while before I find armies that I'm comfortable with in all eras (GAH, faction, unit combos, upgrades -- then matching play style Oh, the simple days of 4 musk, 4 Ashi, 4 ND, 2 NC, 2AC). Northumbrians seem okay for me in VIK, no idea about Early, Brits seem my choice in High -- tho i'd like to experiment more w/ Rus, Mongols and Hungarians. LATE, like Early, is all guesswork right now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[Kocmoc]

yes, its a step in the rigth direction well done http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
but we are far away from a real good baöanced game, i still miss some good spear units (60 men), wich can realy kill a cav fast, actual u cna easy draw back ur cav so u cant realy kill lots of cav with a spear unit....if u move ur cav back ofcourse...


we play with too much moral, but i think thats more our fault as a balancing problem.

i miss a anticav-cav and some missles wich can cause some real fear not that "babyfear"

fastmoving shouldnt get chargebonuss...
colours....
chasing enemy down.....

i want more control. my army should do what i want, i spent to much time in a battle to stop units doing things i never did command.

yes, the big improvement is that the units cant gain valour in battle this was 1 of the most wanted things.

so all together it looks nice but still its many to do, u can read in many posts what the probs are and we made all many suggestions how to fix it.

in the last days i got the impressions, that we player work more together i think thats the key as we can change many things on our own, jsut keep together and dont splitt up...


koc

[Kongamato]

I always thought a way to improve spears would be to add the chargebonus for the weapon of spear to any spearunit that gets charged by cavalry. That would simulate the charge of cavalry hitting a spearwall better than what is used right now, where cavalry just loses its chargebonus against spears in Hold formation.

[TosaInu]

I've Viking invasion since last week-end. All MP games we played were very nice. The new 'scripting' for Historical battles/campaigns looks great. There are also quite a few other things that can be modded and will serve both SP and MP. Great job CA.



Quote[/b] ]
fastmoving shouldnt get chargebonuss...


A fast moving bullet is lethal. Ukin=0.5*m*(v^2). Remove the speed and all that's left is a few grams of metal, unable to cripple a mouse. If a fast unit has to have anything, then it's charge (defined as power developed by speed). I (personally) don't like STW's mounted infantry (it's neither realistic nor fun).

Kongamato
I was thinking that too, what's done now is horses hesitating to engage (-> removes momentum -> reduces charge). Seems reasonable too.

[Alrowan]

well after playing a 10k florin game, i think its too low for balance, but i feel 12k-113k would be perfect.. perfect florins for much better balance, im liking VI even more

[theKyl]

yea congrats http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kocmoc]

as i said already, its better balanced at 15k, thats true.

but now with this hardcore moral, its near ipossible to get punished for ur mistakes, inactivity dont get realy punished. and units rally like hell, in a very short time...
some units stay forever. and i near never saw a battle with a clear win, its always chaos, even if ur enemy is shit. he rally many units and kill too many of ur mens.

i tested it vs good players i just did setup and they did flank me or attacked me frontal, i won 50% of the game, and in the battles i didnt won, i did about 500 kills

this shows, there is something wrong, i dont even should get 100 kills, if i jsut sit around
like CA-messanger said, higher moral is less skill, and nothing was more true as this words in the last months

where are all the "Oldtimer"?



moral is the only thing wich makes the difference between Totalwar games and other Arcade games At the moment its more a mass-game, a la Arcade game than a "tactic" game.

so yes, its better balanced and the archer hit ok now, but liek mag always say, 2 step forward 1 back.


koc

[Dionysus9]

I totally agree that 15k is too much florins. I know lots of vets who would disagree, but when I play 15k games I notice mistakes going unpunished (or only slightly punished).

Letting the enemy flank you--even with one unit-- is a big mistake and it should be punished by a rout. Letting the enemy break through your line is a huge mistake and it should be the end of the game for you.

The problem is not with the game. It is with the standard 15k florins.

I played some 1k florin games in Viking Era the other night and they were a BLAST. Very fun, very tactical.

I think 5-10k will work fine. Some of these vets have become lazy in thier old age and expect their troops to fight too long when they are clearly losing.

I expect my men to run away if I put them in a losing position. Heck, I hope some of them make it to the edge of the map since I've %*#%^'ed them.

[LadyAnn]

Perfect at 10k, 12k or 15k? LOL, you never met mr 99999?

Annie

[Puzz3D]

Well I'm glad LongJohn left the low morale end in for those that like those kind of games. I'll warn those considering playing low florin that there is a trick to it which Dion is well aware of and failed to mention. You pump one or two units way up, and make sure they engage first. When you rout the first enemy unit, his whole army will run away. This is exactly what happened in the 10k 4v4 I described. Dion had 4 pumped infantry. I had stupidly distributed my florins more evenly, and had no unit to compete with them. Although most of my units were better than his in hth, my army routed because I lost a couple of matchups. There wasn't any flanking. The tactic is pretty simple, but if you purchase a low florin army the way you purchase a high florin army you are lost before you even deploy. The funny thing is, I didn't loose that game. However, most of my time after the fighting started was spent trying to rally 16 units, and then chasing Dion all the way back across a huge map. Neither player's units had much resilience to stand and fight. Units were scattered all over the map.

[Kocmoc]

i juts ask me how it ever could work in stw and MI?
holy crap we did sleep there and now someone found a new tactic?

come on yuuki, u know the solution fo this and u also know that such a play never can win if u do well

koc

[Puzz3D]

Kocmoc,

The tactic isn't new. Even AMP used it in STW. Maybe it was less effective there at 5k, but it was certainly effective at 1k. I just showed you that STW at 5k was 6 morale points higher than VI at 15k. How do you think that h0 monks were effective? Now Dion wants to play VI at 1k? That shows you the range of morale at which people want to play the game.

I ask you a simple question that might clarify something. If you have 1 unit that is 2x power and I have 2 units that are 1x power and you attack one of my units, how far away can I have my second unit and still be able to come to the aid of my first unit in time to save it? How is it more "arcade" if I have time to come from something like 1 tile distance as opposed to having to keep both my units right next to each other which seems to me what you want? I want to come from something like 1 tile away, and I don't see how that makes it more "arcade". Faster game = more arcade.

[shingenmitch2]

Okay, here's a bunch of thoughts that have been building...

There is a balance balance between units holding forever -- and the game becoming essentially a board game. And units routing fast -- and the game being an arcade game -- first flank & fastest click wins.

1st generation MTW was much faster routing -- people bitched about the cav because they cause the cascade too fast. You had to commit your entire line as fast as possible and hope your matchups work.

I think VI has it about right... units are now holding longer allowing for secondary maneuvers of infantry behind the lines... and flanked units do flee faster than non-flanked--best of both worlds. This is closer to MI and is more realistic to actual warfare.

The talk about not being punished for mistakes is ridiculous, the better players are winning, but with multiple rout points, vets just not winning as big as they are used to (one unit routs army off board) -- enjoy the competition.

-------------------------------
As for the talk about this need for "Uber" spear to stop cav --what is the need? There are plenty of infantry units that can kill cav easily -- Bills, Miltia Sgts, Pikes and Halbs. If there was one problem with having a unit kill cav, it was when these inf. were isolated, they did not want to stand and fight -- that was a Morale issue only -- cause if they stay and fight, those cav get their butts kicked fast. I think the "standing" problem might be solved now by the increase to morale.

As it is now, spears can kill cav and the cav get no battlefield upgrades... the cav do not need to be weakened to the point of becoming skirmishers and rout-chasers only.

--------------------
As for the idea of some form of YC -- there is no historical precedent in Medieval warfare for light spear cav defeating heavy cav. The point to heavy cav is they could litterally ride-over any lighter cav. Light cav could only skirmish/harrass the heavies. And, again, what is the great need for a YC? -- if you want to stop a cav w/ a cav, then send your heavies at them and create a stalemate. Is that not good enough?