Decimation

[Kongamato]

Along with the options of disbanding, combining, and retraining units, I believe that the option of decimating could prove handy. At the cost of every tenth man in a unit, the remaining men would become more disciplined, which would be reflected either with higher morale for your soldiers or a higher Dread rating(or similar effect) for your unit commander.

I know that decimation was a punishment for units in Roman times. Since this punishment was true to history, and will affect the number of men in your army, don't you think it should be included? If so, how? It could be included as a simple message given to you on the campaign map after an army routs, telling you how many men you have after decimation, or, as I said earlier, an option like disbanding. However, misuse of this option should have negative effects, which would have to be acccounted for by putting in a whole new campaign morale system for militaries, which would reflect province populations in MTW.

What do you think?

[Shahed]

YES.

*looks at clock & runs off to return later*

[Hakonarson]

Why would you include decimation if you don't include all the other disciplinary measures such as demotion, short rations, etc., or any of the rewards that might go with exc ellent performance such as promotion to Praetorian?

And what effect would you give it?

I've seen some idiot over in the .com forum raving on about wanting it 'cos he thinks it would be cool to kill your own men and IMO that's about the level of it - something that's likely to be a bit silly at the level of TW.

[Kongamato]

Perhaps a "Discipline" menu then. It would be like the taxation rates enforced on provinces in STW and MTW. It would give you five options, ranging from rewards to punishments, with a standard, "normal" setting in the middle.

Rewards and punishments are mentioned by Sun Tzu in The Art of War. I would assume that with this new campaign map, supplies and fatigue might just factor in. Therefore, control and limitation of supplies could help one's forces stay disciplined.

[Nelson]

I'd rather crucify rebellious slaves... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Krasturak]

If there is this decimation thingy, Krast wants to be able to swing the axe himself.

Gah Cut heads off Gah

[Spino]

Decimation? Off all the things to ask for No thanks. What would be the justification for such a feature?

As far as I know I don't think there is a single ancient era wargame (electronic or paper based) that included decimation as a feature.

[RisingSun]

Well, Spino, don't we want RTW to be original? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]Well, Spino, don't we want RTW to be original?

NO Screw realtime tactical battles I want HEXES dammnit Bring back combat resolution tables, paper maps and yes, dare I say it... DICE

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Nowake]

I agree with Hakonarson ... as long as you don't add a whole queue for disciplinary measures, what's the use?

Plus, I'm sick and tired of those forumers from .com wandering all day and screaming for decimation. GilJaySmith gave them a straight answer that sounded like: "get a life, we heard about you, we'll see"; and they still continue http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[Kongamato]

I don't read the .com.

[GilJaysmith]

Decimation? Oooooh nooooooo... runs away

OK, seriously: I don't know whether decimation will be included, but it's a fascinating bit of historical colour, and I promise you that if it isn't included it isn't because we didn't think of it.

For the confused: there was a slight kerfuffle at the com earlier today in some decimation-related threads. Nothing we couldn't handle.

[Shahed]

Well IMO rewards and punishments in the game would make it even more realistic. Boy the list of features is getting longer and longer.

I realy like the idea Konga. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Kongamato]

My final word on the discipline issue:
It appears that the new campaign map will give the commander no respite from the needs and morale of his troops. In the strategy map, your troops will not disappear into la-la land every time you plan your moves. The scope of generalship in the game has the potential to be greatly increased by the inclusion of logistical aspects, and proper discipline, a part of the movement and supply of troops, will maintain good morale when heading into battle. Decimation touched on this aspect. Unfortunately, we have absolutely no clue what is possible in this new campaign map. We probably wont until the game comes out.

Next topic

Public works like roads, bridges, and aqueducts... What kind of control over these do you expect? How do you improve/build roads? If handled like farmland, which I would expect, where would you give the order? The city? What is the range of this order? How are the costs calculated? I want to destroy and build bridges. Destruction and control of bridges is key to warfare. What kind of control do I get over this?

[Nowake]

what kind of bridges do you think we're going to have then? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif This raises a lot of other questions, as will we be able to throw wooden bridges over small rivers etc. etc. So, CA, a small answer? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Belisarius]

Decimation???? For heavens sake, is beating a comrade that has fallen asleep on the post, to death with a stick going to be in? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif Or are we to see Centurions wearing medals he has recieved? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
How about if they make a WW2 game that Soviet commisars are to shoot a random number of troops every day? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

There is one thing called realism and detail, and then there is one thing called playability and gameplay balance, you judge wich ones are more important.....

[rasoforos]

arent you 'decimation' fans forgetting something? its you that command those troops , and its you that know their abilities and whether they will stand their ground in battle or not. If you overestimate your abilities or the enemy has far superior troops and your army bites the dust in the end it is totally your fault. To decimate some already decimated peasants because they ran away from a bunch of spartans is unrealistic and useless. It could be used in a real world condition when the ruler would put the blame on the general and the general would put the blame on the soldiers to keep his head on his souldiers , and the general would not exactly know the morale and abilities of his units . However in this game the ruler and the general is you , and you get perfect information ...so if someone needs decimation after a military blunder is the players and not those poor polygons or sprites....

[Lehesu]

I agree. You guys are taking one of the most random historical events, loosely tying it in with Total War, and then add it to the already considerably large wish list for Rome.

[Kongamato]

Decimation? What lifeless angry teenage moron posted this? "ooo kill my men fun fun"... Yeah right Get a better knowledge of history you little wart Maybe ya should get a pencil and TAKE NOTES IN YOUR HISTORY CLASSES. Oh wait, you probably go to a retard school. I bet your mother typed this for you while you make "WOHYEEEEEEEE" noises and drooled on your keyboard. Here's the final answer for you: Not every tenth man needs to be killed to make the world better. Just you.

[Skomatth]

Without reading other posts:

Decimation would be cool if it raised morale for all your troops. They'd be less likely to run, but also have less #'s.

[Shahed]

The supply lines, transport infrastructure ideas are great too.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Hee hee, read our pleasant, structured debate, and then read this: Crazy .com decimation thread (http://pub24.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessageRange?topicID=426.topic&start=1&stop=20)
It makes me chuckle... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[starkhorn]

I think the decimation is a little excessive and not really that necessary. Something similiar to putting a unit commander on trial for cowardice or treason is enough in my humble opinion. (like what the spies can do at the moment for treason)

Cheers
starkhorn

[Rocket_Boy]

Just read the decimation thread over at .com, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif It all seems pretty stupid to me. I can think of dozens of features that the devs could more spend their time more usefully on. Since you are in command of your army, aware of their morale level and in charge of when and where they go to combat, then responsibility for the victory/defeat is all your own.

If you're seriously in favour of physical punishment, perhaps you should disband one legion in ten in the game and give yourself a punishment beating in real life.

[Oberiko]

I don't really care for the decimation idea, but I suppose it could be implemented alright if it was a special ability for one of the Roman factions (such as the one under Cassius).

[RisingSun]

He wasn't implying that he would blame his troops after a battle, he just wanted to use it as a morale/valour enhancing tool, and to increase his dread rating. It's not like the guy actually believes the troops lost the battle for him Take it easy on the poor guy

[Hippolyte]

Indeed. I find nothing especially objectionable about this idea. Then again, I haven't read the posts at .com so I'm not up to snuff on the issues. But, IMO, I think that it IS the details that make the game playable (and re-playable). Just because we don't actually want to witness or participate in a real instance of 'decimation' doesn't mean that it wouldn't work well in a game that we play for enjoyment. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Still, there are probably more important things on the wish list that should be considered before this. Nonetheless, I'd like to see it included as it would increase the game's potential. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[some_totalwar_dude]

I dont realy now, ok yeah can use it as a diciplin tool but I hate to kill my own men (exeption of mercenaries http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )
One time I even recharged my hobliars in a spearmen unit when I saw one of them was still stuck between the spears.
I won eventualy (much higer valor and upgrades) lost a few men more trough.

[Herodotus]

I think including decimation is a good idea. It would add to the historical accuracy. Decimation was used to stop men from retreating, the logic was that the men would figure it more sensible to keep up an impossible fight than to run and be hacked down by their own. Implementing it would be difficult though and its effects should differ vastly in different scenarios (ie. if the men really don't deserve it they will all mutiny).

[Kongamato]

I think that decimation needs to be implemented as a small part of a large strategy-map morale system that regulates the valour, energy, and morale of troops entering battle based on strategy map factors such as weather, abundance of supplies, their commander's vices and virtues, and disciplinary measures. Basically, armies will be a lot like province populations, with attributes like Happiness translating into morale and valour. Now when dealing with populations, the people's loyalty and happiness had to be regulated with taxation rates and the presence of authority figures. This needs to be implemented with armies in some way. I can think of a hundred things that can go into such a system, such as marching rate, punishment measures in case of failure, supply rationing, and pay. Now, I do not expect all of these things to make it into the army system of RTW, but I expect a few to be included and implemented like the tax rate, with five settings that will affect things like the behavior, morale, and marching rate of your soldiers.

[Herodotus]

Good thinking Konga, I was trying to find a way to express what you have said but failed. I too think that decimation should be part of an overall policy regarding your fighting men. It should not be a little button that you can press at any time.

[Nikitas]

More options are always good until there are so many that the game becomes a micro-management nightmare.

It would be nice to see RTW take troop management to the next level so I would agree with a set of options, as has already been mentioned, that sets a general level of pay/march speed/rations/punishments. The harder the soldiers are pushed the more the morale, loyalty, and support costs drop while the valor and speed of movement go up.

Of course this would also require a differant morale system so that valor does not translate directly into battle morale.

[lonewolf371]

Kongamato, did you diss yourself in that other post? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Kongamato]

The post was an attempt at sarcasm. I imagined that this thread attracted zealots who considered me a moron and were trying to flame me for ruining the historical sanctity of their forum.

[Lurkster]

I almost died laughing after I read the .com post -- especially the guy who said that he would rate the game a 7 out of 10 if decimation wasn't in it, and a 10 out of 10 if it was. What is this guy smoking? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

The worrying part was that he seemed to want to-and I quote-'Punish his own men' more than anything else. There are places you can go for that kind of thing... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Maedhros]

I'm having my own little kerfluffle. Whatever that means.

Was Spino joking or no? I used to love those old dice strategy games...I wonder if I still have mine...

[Captain Fishpants]

A kerfuffle would involve a degree of mild argy-bargy.

Hope that definition sheds light on the meaning. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

MikeB ~ CA

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (Captain Fishpants @ June 19 2003,13:38)]A kerfuffle would involve a degree of mild argy-bargy.

Hope that definition sheds light on the meaning. :)

MikeB ~ CA
Mike's exaggerating... pardonably so, but nevertheless... it's more like a cross between a brouhaha and a fracas, with a dash of contretemps, only more cuddly.

Edit: Another way of describing it would be to say that the participants are a bit tumpy...

[Hakonarson]

It's definitely not a stoush or a row tho'

[RisingSun]

I always thought of a kerfluffle as a miniature hullabaloo. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Brutal DLX]

I'm not sure about this. Especially about what effect this should have on the troops... any at all? Or should it give just a virtue to the general, that turns into a vice if used excessively.. like the "butcher" vice in MTW and the variations thereof?
I checked the thread at the .com too, and it appears this guy just wanted this option because he had trouble keeping his troops on the field in MTW as apparently he didn't understand the valour/morale boni/mali that take effect when in battle.

[FesterShinetop]

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ May 23 2003,18:10)]Hee hee, read our pleasant, structured debate, and then read this: Crazy .com decimation thread (http://pub24.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessageRange?topicID=426.topic&start=1&stop=20)
It makes me chuckle... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
OMG after reading that I get a real urge to decimate someone... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
And I thought people over here on the .Org were sick http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif