The range of Javelin and Grenade units MTW v STW

[+DOC+]

Compare the ranges of these units in STW and MTW:

STW Range
Javelin 2000
Grenade 1500

MTW Range
Javelin 1500
Grenade 1300

Whilst with these values is it possible for the human player to get a use out of them, the AI cannot use these units with these low ranges. Why? Simply because of the skirmish selection.

Without skirmish selected and hold formation instead, both the human player and AI can get a better use from these units, although i still believe that their range is too small to be of any actual use. With hold formation they'll maybe only get one shot off before they have to engage.

So, the only to way to resolve this situation, particularly from an AI perspective, is to increase the range of these units so to enable them to fire even when in skirmish mode. What range will allow this i am as yet unsure, although i believe greater than the following will work:

MTW New Range
Javelin at least 1800
Grenade at least 1600

Anyone else any joys with these units?

[Mithrandir]

Javelins should definaltey be increased, napthah however is fine imho, giving them more range could be scary...

maybe just a bit more so they can get 1 shot in before the melee... I like the danger of using them though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif.

(on a sidenote-1 napthah had 172 kills once http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif -guarding the bridge http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

[+DOC+]

AYe, napthas can be scary, but only when used by a human player and in the right circumstances, i.e. a bridge battle.

Meanwhile, the AI is chronic with napthas and only marginally less chronic with javelin units. The suggested changes to these units are mainly for the benefit of the AI.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Daevyll]

I've had good results sending Naptha's around the flanks of large melees then tossing their grenades into it. Mass carnage.

The AI indeed doest use them very well, but then again I am so paranoia about them that I tend to hunt them down with some cavalry as a first priority.

[Brutal DLX]

I agree, for fairness' sake. The range of all javelin-throwing units should be increased, so they may be able to fire at least one volley at any infantry that's running towards them at charge speed before withdrawing. Cavalry should still be able to reach them before they are able to fire (in skirmish mode, on hold they probably should get off one volley though).
Naptha seems to work fine as it is, though.

[KurnoustheHunter]

Just a note guys,

With an Increase in range I would also advise an increase in velocity. The Jav's will travel alittle faster and will also travel that little bit further as per range

LEt me explain that clearer. "range" is apparently the attribute that allows the unit to aim (get a firing solution)

Velocity effects Speed of projectile, and also how far the projectile travels (i.e. effective RANGE&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif so it is important to up the velocity proportinally.

maybe other member more knowledgable can clear this up

[BDC]

I think javelins should be able to be thrown when moving if that is possible. But might make them a bit of an uber-unit with added range.

[WesW]

Yeah, I increased the range and velocity of javelins to 2500 and 100, respectively. This was for gameplay reasons as you all have stated, and also I believe that it would be more realistic, too. For units not carrying shields, you ought to be able to throw a javelin 20 to 30 meters, imo, which should give you one, and perhaps two good vollies before you had to run.

I think skirmish mode is linked to the ammo tab in the units file, else I would change it for many of the javelin units in the Viking campaign. The AI just seems particularly inept at using javelin units.

[RisingSun]

Hehehe.(to borrow a phrase)*Puts on modding hat* Wouldnt it be funny to inrease the naptha range to huge size and see em fling it across the field? LMAO

[TheLastEuropean]

Don't understand why they take so long to begin firing. If they could target and throw quicker they would be better to use since they usually just start skirmishing before they throw a single projectile. Hit and run would be much easier then, as it should be for skirmishers You should be able to run up to a unit, lob a volley then run away. I mean, How long does it take to take a javelin from your other hand then throw it? Or rather, just throw it, as surely they grab a javelin on the approach to get ready.

[Pablo Sanchez]

As it is, I never really use the Javelin troops as skirmishers, per se, because in a battle of any size they'll just be cut apart by cavalry, and I usually can't spare spear units. The best use for javelins, IMO, is to have them fire into melees. They seem to have a pretty good accuracy and don't hit your troops as often as archers, and it's really very fun to lock a bunch of MAA into place with a low-cost unit, and then grind them up with javelins.

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]Velocity effects Speed of projectile, and also how far the projectile travels (i.e. effective RANGE so it is important to up the velocity proportinally.

Yup, the "range" column affects the range at which the targeting cursor turns green, IIRC. Actual range is velocity squared and divided by four.

And I too would like to put in my vote for a longer javelin & heavy spear range. 1800 with a velocity of 85 to match. Perhaps increase the range of darts to keep their range advantage. (2800 with a velocity of 110. Might be a bit too much though.)

[The_Emperor]

I have had great fun with Naptha in past battles, and I find tha it does come in very handy in a wide range of battles (maybe not so much in attack, but certainly they pack a real defensive punch)

Javelins I have an automatic dislike because of the very short range and the seeming weakness of them (all those games crushing the Irish Kerns seem to have been the source of that). But saying that Spanish Jinettes are the exception to the rule being mounted and highly mobile as they are...

Still I got no complaints about my Naptha though (even if 2 years training does limit how many I have in the end)

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ May 26 2003,16:16)]I have had great fun with Naptha in past battles, and I find tha it does come in very handy in a wide range of battles (maybe not so much in attack, but certainly they pack a real defensive punch)

Javelins I have an automatic dislike because of the very short range and the seeming weakness of them (all those games crushing the Irish Kerns seem to have been the source of that). But saying that Spanish Jinettes are the exception to the rule being mounted and highly mobile as they are...

Still I got no complaints about my Naptha though (even if 2 years training does limit how many I have in the end)
Javelins are not weak. They can inflict severe casualties and cause significant disorder to any infantry unit, from peasants to gothic foot knights. It's just a matter of knowing when to use them.

[Husar]

Just give them a range of 2km and add the tail of the burning arrows and an explosion at the target and you have got a medieval Stalin Organ. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
I think I will let them be as they are and try to use them like Pablo Sanchez said. I have had the same idea once, but I never tried, because I thought, that my losses would be too high because of friendly fire.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (Husar @ May 27 2003,14:55)]Just give them a range of 2km and add the tail of the burning arrows and an explosion at the target and you have got a medieval Stalin Organ. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
I think I will let them be as they are and try to use them like Pablo Sanchez said. I have had the same idea once, but I never tried, because I thought, that my losses would be too high because of friendly fire.
Well, don't yell at me if you do take losses http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I always took care to fire the javelins from a good position, and I usually used cheap infantry for my holding form. I never noticed losses on the scale that you get from archers firing into melee, but I wouldn't have cared much about the spearmen in any case.