LotR mod: how many factions should there be?

[Duke John]

In our LotR topic, we cannot decide as one on how many factions there should be. So here's your chance to influence the LotR mod.

I have the opinion that this is a game and so should have replayability. Having 10 factions means that you try them all out. Having just 2 means that you might try them all maybe twice, but by then you may have seen it all.
Also with having all the good factions on one side, you'll get a mish mash of all the different units. The different and chararistic feeling of the elite Elves, stubborn Dwarves are then lost.

I'm curious what you think.
Duke John

[NagatsukaShumi]

I chose 10 or so as this is a game, nothing more, nothing less. Two faction would inevitably be too few as once you've played through four or five campaign you've seen all and done all. With the Good vs Evil vs Isengard one, well, like you said the units lose that special something about them. If you use many factions people will have play the MOD alot more, it also gives them something to do while they wait for a new units or update to be released for example. More factions means you have more choice and more fun in my view, would you have wanted to play on MTW if the French controlled one half of Europe and the Turks controlled the other half and those were the only two factions? I think not.

[_Martyr_]

But the reality is, that the MTW AI will not "unite" at all against the enemy, It will be a situation where its Gondor vs Rohan Vs Isengard Vs Elves Vs Mordor Vs etc... If you want replay value, thats not a way of achieving it. It will create a chaotic mish-mash of good Vs good Vs evil Vs evil. There would be very few epic Good Vs bad battles where the free people of Middle Earth unit against the forces of Sauron. Isnt that what everyone wants? If there was some way of making the AI less ambitious against other "good" factions then Im all for having as many factions as possible. But if not Mordor will just overpower each time because it has such huge brute force, now that doesnt sound like lots of replay value either...

[NagatsukaShumi]

You can limit the Good vs Good wars yes by making all good factions catholic and having something like the Council of Elrond as a Pope figure, either than or you can simply set their behaviour in the startpos files to be that of one that doesn't war with its own race/allegiance.

[Duke John]

Modifying their behaviour to not attack their allies is not possible. Mordor may prove a problem; it should be possible to enter it via some mountain passes and the gate. This gives it a good starting position but perhaps the lands don't have a good income, so it has to expand but then it will be vulnerable. Also Gondor quite able to defend itself because of the river battles Mordor has to fight to invade.

And perhaps Mordor should be the big menacing cloud that hangs over Middle Earth.

[NagatsukaShumi]

Yeh it won't make allies never attack eachother, but it lowers the chances.

[_Martyr_]

It would be absolutely idiotic though if the AI kept being blindly aggressive and attacking its so called allies. It would destroy gameplay.

How would you make sure that the AI factions concentrated on attacking the enemy rather than the other small factions of "good" .

The religion idea works a bit, but when playing MTW, the christian factions never stop fighting each other either.

Unless someone comes up with a really good way of limiting the random breaches of alliances, I think there should only be five factions. Even from a work load point of view, in the first version we could have five, then with later versions we could start developing each one carefully and then adding more to the list slowly and with a lot of detail. That would mean we would eventually arrive at a situation where we had 10 or 12 at the end. But if we aim for that at the start, the likelyhood is that we would end up with a lot of factions that are not very unique, and only half done.

[GoldenKnightX2]

It will be more fun with more factions involved

[Brother Derfel]

I don't think it will be too big a problem that the 'good' allies may attack each other.

After all, there was not as much cohesion between the allies in the novels, and only certain events kept them together.

After all, if Gandalf had not released Theoden from the coucell of Grimir Wormtongue, Rohan may very well have remained allied to Isenguard.

Didn't Black riders also visit the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain, offering gifts in return for the ring?

Was not Saruman plotting to build an army so big as to overthrow Sauron himself?

Did not Saruman at the end of the Novel manage to take command of The Shire, so that even the hobbit Sherrifs aprehanded the returning heros?

I think that it will add a new challenge to the game and perhaps more realism, offering an alternate ending to the books, if perhaps Rohan had allied with Saruman against Sauron, then crushed Gondor and claimed all of Middle Earth for the troops of Isenguard.

[Nowake]

The races always had grudges one against another, so I voted for 10 or more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (_Martyr_ @ May 25 2003,09:54)]It would be absolutely idiotic though if the AI kept being blindly aggressive and attacking its so called allies. It would destroy gameplay.

The religion idea works a bit, but when playing MTW, the christian factions never stop fighting each other either.
I'm pretty sure the AI is acting significantly different in version VI. None of the christian factions are fighting each other - they are only fighting me. I'm christian as well, and constantly at war with the pope.

Speaking of the Pope, when his faction re-emerges they come back with a vengence. This leads to my next idea...

I'd originally thought to make the Human races Christian. But as i think about it, it would be better to make the plethora of Saurons Minions be the Christians, with either Sauron or Saraman as the Pope.

I don't think Islamic Factions war on each other near as much as christians. So Gondor, Rohan, Dwarfs, and Elfs could be Muslim. If the Orks, Easterlings, etc. were to be Christian, they could also launch pretty powerful Crusades against the Human factions.

Another problem people mentioned with more than one 'Good' race, is how to attach through allied provinces. Well, Jihads and Crusades are the answer.

The Mongol invasion ala 1330 is another tool that could be used. Perhaps Sauraman could be reprented by the Mongols - crashing in a powerful wave all at once (this seems pretty similar to how it transpires in the books).

[_Martyr_]

yeah weve already brain stormed that in the other thread. Both sides need to use crusades, not jihads, because they are only able to take back provinces.

[Duke John]

Actually I think using crusades or jihads isn't that great of an idea. Using the VI campaign as a template for the LotR mod is better for the general gameplay improvements of the game that are implemented in VI but not in the normal MTW campaign (with VI installed ). Secondly I don't like the idea at all that a crusade picks up Orcs on the way to the Crusades end point.

Edit
I read what Martyr said below and... well forget what I said http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[_Martyr_]

It wouldnt. Any faction that can have Orcs will by default be the opposite religion to the "crusaders", thus the crusade will not be able to pass through any "evil" provinces on the way. So I dont see how Orcs could be picked up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Dionysus9]

Ok, these are the factions i think you've gotta have:

Evil:
1) Sauron [mordor] (special unit: the nine wringwraiths[create fear = morale penalty])
2) Saruman [orthanc] (special unit: uruk hai)
3) Southrons/Haradrim [harad] (special unit: oliphant)

Good:
4) Gondor [gondor]
5) Hobbits [the shire](special unit: hobbit slingmen, archers (like welsh bandits))
6) High Elves [rivendell]
7) Wood Elves [glorfindel?]
8) The Dwarves [Moria]
9) The Rohirim [Rohan] horselords

Other factions which would be cool:


The Eagles (yeah right)
The Ents (tree men, another yeah right)

Special units:
The Dunedain/Rangers (small elite units), possibly these would be special units for Gondor
Ogres/Giants (kensai, but would have to be big sprites)
Dragons (not likely)
Balrog (im really dreaming here)
Wizards/Elven Magic

Of course this is just a few possibilities off the top of my head.

[Brother Derfel]

I think things like Ents and Eagles should be only available in select provinces, and only for certain factions.

e.g Ents should only be able to be built in Fangorn (or whatever province has Fangorn forest in it) and only to 'good' factions.

Same with Eagles in northern provinces.

Balrog, only available to 'Evil' in Moria or other provinces with deep 'Underground' areas.

[_Martyr_]

I dont think Ents will be making an appearance in this mod, too hard to recreate in MTW engine. They would be awsome though if someone had a lot of time. There is only one Balrog in Moria, this Balrog is killed by Gandalf so, they shouldnt be included for the moria faction.

[Duke John]

Never say never http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[_Martyr_]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif Go on DJ, sho us the ents http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Emp. Conralius]

Quote[/b] (_Martyr_ @ May 26 2003,07:30)]I dont think Ents will be making an appearance in this mod, too hard to recreate in MTW engine. They would be awsome though if someone had a lot of time. There is only one Balrog in Moria, this Balrog is killed by Gandalf so, they shouldnt be included for the moria faction.
This mod will be in the 2nd Age. At that point in time, there were more elves, more dwarves and more...Balrogs.

[_Martyr_]

wasnt it agreed that this was a 3rd age mod? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

How can it be a Lotr mod if its in the second age? If thats whats its called it should be about the war of the ring. Plus what would Uruk Hai be doing in the second age? The amount of detail given by Tolkien about the second age in the Silmarillion is IMO not enough to base the mod around. Perhaps do a LoTR mod first and then, mod that mod to be second age? Seems like a better idea to me

[Emp. Conralius]

Quote[/b] (_Martyr_ @ May 26 2003,09:23)]wasnt it agreed that this was a 3rd age mod? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

How can it be a Lotr mod if its in the second age? If thats whats its called it should be about the war of the ring. Plus what would Uruk Hai be doing in the second age? The amount of detail given by Tolkien about the second age in the Silmarillion is IMO not enough to base the mod around. Perhaps do a LoTR mod first and then, mod that mod to be second age? Seems like a better idea to me
In te 3rd Age, elves and dwarves were uncommon to see. And in this mod, you'll be able to make armies of them.

I think we're still debating that though. But I'm pretty sure it's a 2nd Age mod. Thats why DJ made the comment earlier that it might have been a mistake to create an Uruk-Hai model first. And like I sai before, in the 3rd Age, elves were a dying breed and weren't churning out armies

I thought it would be a 3rd Age mod aswell, with Isengard and all. But hey, I could be wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[A_B]

Quote[/b] (_Martyr_ @ May 26 2003,09:23)]wasnt it agreed that this was a 3rd age mod? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

How can it be a Lotr mod if its in the second age?
Speaking from a pure gaming point...

I think the Mod should start 10 to 20 years before the books actually start. This would allow some time to build up ones faction. This can't really be a 'LOTR' mod. There is no way to add the 'ring' or magic. It is a strategy/tactics/roleplaying game taking place in the Tolkien world. The strategy/tactics part will be a blast - assuming things are balanced well.

As for the roleplaying aspect, one has to assume the role of a faction leader. I can't imagine anyone wanting to follow the same path as faction leaders as described in the book. The only one worth emulating would be Sauron himself. All the others were weak and foolish (or in Elronds case, well on thier way to irrelevance).

The leaders or Gondor, Rohan, and Isenguard were mere pawns to Saurons intrigue. The 'role' i'd like to play is that of being a slightly wiser leader of Gondor or Rohan (Rohan would be cool), with enough time to do a little build up - diplomacy & expansion into rebel territory - prior to the real power struggle starting.

In this scenario, units like Nazgul work fine for enemy generals (of the Sauron Faction). Even a few 'super' units would be ok - trolls, oliphonts, etc. Eagles, Ents, and Balrogs go too far in the actual battles.

Super heros are represented well enough by the Faction Hiers. Or, they could be 'sword saints' as done in STW. I imagine there will be too much reloading of battles if you include Stider and Legolas as sword saints though.

This mod should take place in Tolkens world, but it should be a replay of the books.

[cugel]

"But the reality is, that the MTW AI will not "unite" at all against the enemy, It will be a situation where its Gondor vs Rohan Vs Isengard Vs Elves Vs Mordor Vs etc... If you want replay value, thats not a way of achieving it. It will create a chaotic mish-mash of good Vs good Vs evil Vs evil. There would be very few epic Good Vs bad battles where the free people of Middle Earth unit against the forces of Sauron. Isnt that what everyone wants? If there was some way of making the AI less ambitious against other "good" factions then Im all for having as many factions as possible. But if not Mordor will just overpower each time because it has such huge brute force, now that doesnt sound like lots of replay value either... "

Martyr has really hit it on the HEAD This is EXACTLY the problem. It's not that more factions wouldn't be more interesting, it's that they won't work well with the game engine

We have to be very clear about what we want. When we think of an MTW SP campaign mod what are we after? How should it play? This must be discussed.

THE GOAL In my view, the goal is to create a mod which most closely models the world Tolkien has created at the time of the War of the Ring (or the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men if we want to add a 2nd age mod), within the constraints of the MTW game engine.

What does this mean? In my mind this game gives us the propect of doing something I have dreamed about since I first read the books as a child. To have a war game focused on the epic battles between elves men and orcs described by Tolkien in the LOTR. Marching men, screaming orcs, the works. Large armies, epic conquest of Middle Earth, to place oneself in the position of Sauron, Saruman or Gandalf and take it from there. Was the strategy of Gandalf really the only way to defeat Mordor? Should Sauron have waited and built up his forces more before he attacked Gondor? Could Elrond have recreated a new alliance of elves and men and destroyed Sauron by force? Tolkien only told the story one way. His way. But the dream is to reset the table, to take us back to the moment when the war started to happen ONLY WITH EACH PLAYER AS THE STORY TELLER. BE SAURON AND COVER ALL THE LANDS IN A SECOND DARKNESS. BE GANDALF OR ELROND AND SAVE MIDDLE EARTH

That's the fun of this mod for me. Not to re-create the book the way Tolkien wrote it, but to find my own strategy.

But it's only as much fun as it can be if the setting is as close to the books as possible at the START. What happens from there? I'M IN CHARGE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Isn't that the fun of a LOTR mod for you? To recreate the setting of the LOTR as closely as possible, and then step into the shoes of one protagonist or another?

THE PROBLEMBut for this to be a LOTR mod and not just a FANTASY MOD set in Middle Earth certain basic premises can't be changed. Good is Good and Evil is Evil. The moral universe of Tolkien is probably WHY the books are so popular in the first place. Having an appealing, amazingly detailed world without the moral doubts and qualifications that plague the real world.

Mordor is evil, and not just because Sauron uses orcs. Gondor and Rohan are good. They wouldn't ally with Mordor to conquer each other or Lorien, because they basically aren't interested in universal conquest for it's own sake. Probably the good player should stop at 60% domination, while the evil player shouldn't stop until the entire map is Mine, all MINE. MUuuHAHAHAHA (Sorry Got carried away there with fantasies of being Sauron)
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Ents are not out to conquer the world. Saruman is opportunistic and sly and is really only out for himself.

I suppose that you have to actually care about these books to care. But things have to be a certain way or it's no good Not exactly like the EVENTS that happened in the book. But you can't change the basic attitudes of the races of Middle Earth and turn the Hobbits into a conquering horde or have Gondor and Mordor ally to crush the elves and still have the result hold any charm for me.

LOTR Versus Middle Earth Mod

If there are multiple factions, the game engine will treat each as completely independent and each one will try to take over the map. We can mitigate to some extent this flaw, but it will always be present. Period. Factions WILL attack each other without regard for religion or alignment, because that't the way the game engine is programmed.

If there are no more than 3 factions, what do we do to enchance replayability? There is TONS of replayability in Tolkien's universe. He created more than 6,000 years of history for us to play in. There are three whole ages of middle earth complete with histories of wars, betrayals, conquests, the rise and fall of empires, etc. People have done much of the work in figuring out how to re-create these epic battles (in minatures), so a lot of thought about the recreating the setting from the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales has already been accomplished: See this link for details: http://larsen-family.us/~1066/index.html

There will be no shortage of campaigns to make. Once the basic map of Middle Earth is made, most of these new campaigns can easily be designed. For instance, the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men uses basically the same provinces as the 3rd age, with certain exceptions. It could easily be created based on the map of the 3rd age, with some new units and leaders (for example, the Nazgul were much more powerful in the 2nd age when Sauron had the ring).

SUMMATION I don't think it will work from a practical playbalance standpoint. Remember that Sauron had so much power that only an alliance of all the free peoples of Middle Earth would have much of a chance of opposing him. If all the "good" factions are divided and fighting with each other, it's a CAKEWALK for Sauron. Unless you arbitrarily weaken him to make the game "more fair." But in this case you are taking the mod further and further away from the books. If Sauron had been weak, there's much less drama. Rather than come up with solutions that make things worse, why not accept the inevitable?

There are 3 factions. Good. Evil. and Saruman who's sort of neutral. That's it.

I suppose if everyone still want's multiple factions, I'll just have to mod the mod and take them out But I bet it will work a LOT better without all the extra factions.

[_Martyr_]

I suppose its not such a big difference at this point, if its 10+ factions we have to create LOTS of units, maps and game design, if its the 3 factions, we still have to create all the units, maps and game design. So lets decide once we have all the things created and then we can test if it is really stupid and if so, we use only 3. No harm done, well just have a VERY diverse good and evil faction.

[Duke John]

Note: with "you" I sometimes mean a particular somebody, but I never mean to offend anyone."

Three factions?
Three factions might be option, but after your arguments Cugel I think that is not good way. You can say Elves will never ally with Mordor ( = Orcs) to attack Gondor. But will the Elves ally with Isengard ( = Super Orcs) to attack Mordor? That is still strange. Saruman wasn't neutral, he was for himself. No good faction in their mind would stand next to an Uruk-Hai army.

Remain true to the book?
Some people have the firm believe that Elves should not attack Humans or vice versa, it should be good vs evil. It was told this way in the book and so it should be in the game. The only way IMHO to create this with the MTW engine is to create Historical Campaigns or Battles, You can then have the Last Alliance or any other battle fought as told in the book.

Now let me ask another question:
Did many people dislike the Medieval: Total War because the campaign wasn't true to the historical books?
I think the most of us accepted the game as it was, sure it was ahistorical but it gave some great gameplay. In real history countries could not or would not conquer whole Europe. The same holds for the LotR mod, the only factions that would do that are Isengard and Mordor. In what place would that put you that as the good player? Kill Sauron and Saruman and the game is over? How many turns would that take, 20?

Perhaps it should be a fantasy game in the world of Middle Earth. The only reason is; gameplay.

Are MP and custom games the way to go?
You talk about having Elves fight alongside Men to fend off the hordes of Evil. Would you get that feeling when you can produce all kinds of units and sent to them battle?
Or would you get that feeling when you create a custom or multiplayer game and select the Gondor Faction and fight alongside a Human/AI Controlled Elven Faction on which you need to DEPEND (instead of simply controlling) to make a stand against the forces of Evil?

My point is let's Historical Battles and Campaings to carefully recreate the World of the Lord of the Rings. We can have MP games to play the War of the Ring (Which would be awesome ).
But we create a 12 Faction campaign to play a Characterfull faction in a Middle Earth. As we can see from the poll, this is what the most of us want, and that's exactly the reason I put up that poll; to see what the majority wanted.

Conclusion
I wholeheartedly agree with Cugel keeping Middle Earth intact but we should keep gameplay and accuracy apart by using campaigns and historical battles respectively.

[Lotar]

Actually, in Tolken's works, there are accounts of good fighting good, they just band together when threatened by evil, like in The Hobbit. I don't think it would be unnusual for elves to be fighting dwarves or men. Plus, only two factions would get boring really quick, and wouldn't be much of a challenge.

[LordMonarch]

Hello all, Martyr asked me to get involved in the LotR mod. I know some of the three Elvish tounges (yes I am that sad) and have been involved in a good few of the Starcraft, Warcraft lotr mods and have made my own maps and mods of it. Well, I offer you my services, if you wish.

[Lotar]

Here's some ideas for factions.

Evil:
1.) Mordor: Maybe it would be best not to include Sauron as a unit, talk about an uber unit. I just don't want to see one unit wipe out an army. I think this faction should include Southron/Haradrim
2.)Isengard: Same thing with Saruman (too powerful)
3.) Moria: Same thing with the Balrog (too powerful)
4.) The Misty Mountians: Maybe give them a portion of Mirkwood too. The Goblin King would be their faction leader.

Good:
1.) Gondor: ofcourse
2.) Rohan
3.) Rivendell: High elves
4.) Lorien: High elves
5.) Wood Elves (I forget what their kingdom was called): Mirkwood.
6.) The Dwarves: My mind just blanked, I can't remember the names of the mountains (The Lonely Mountain? I think thats one). One thing on their units though, they should have crossbows, and heavy infantry armed with axes and pollarms. I think they would be a challenging, but not impossible faction to play.

[cugel]

"1.) Mordor: Maybe it would be best not to include Sauron as a unit, talk about an uber unit. I just don't want to see one unit wipe out an army. I think this faction should include Southron/Haradrim
"

You're right that the Mordor faction shouldn't simply be able to use Sauron as a super_tank. . . BUT he really WAS as super tank in the books. (Remember the scene at the beginning of the movie where he just swings his mace and knights by the dozens go flying through the air). He could definitely wipe out whole armies (mostly he would create such fear that they couldn't stand against him).

That said, he just wouldn't do it. At no time did Sauron take the lead in fighting at the head of his army. As Denethor explains in the Return of the King: "He will not come, save to triumph over me when all is won."

This is a problem, because obviously Mordor wouldn't be defeated unless Sauron himself were killed.

[Namarie]

Hmm, just a quick note, I would say, don't try to stick too closely to the books, it would be neigh impossible to do then, using the MTW engine. =)

Trolls should be in, but... how do you make 'em turn to stone? =)

[theadept]

do away with a lotr campaign and use just historical battles and also a just fantasy campaign.
Either that or just go begging to the creative assembly for an entirely new lotr game
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Portuguese Rebel]

I want a LOTR RTS... MTW's engine is too limited for this task. No magic whatsoever...

[Duke John]

And how many lightning bolts did Gandalf farted out of his arse? I think none, so why should there be magic?

[vortex]

there shoudn't - It played virtually no part in the books