The invincible vikings

[Lazul]

ok... the vikings did know how to fight... and I like to dream of viking raids, cus im swedish http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

but in this game... OMG... the viking are terminator like.
In history they didnt fight 1 man against 10 and win.

I jsut played as the vikings, way to easy... so I started as Pict.
First battle against Vikings... i had about 700 celtic warriors... the Viking king attackt me with 60 housecarls, 60 landsmenn and 100 spearmen and peasants...

I only nearly killed a housecarls and i lost terribly. I outflanked him and even with celts all araound there king he, and his carls, slayed all of them.

In real life the Vikings wasnt GOD LIKE. In real life... they liked trading http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

anyway... i open the editor and took away the poor morale from the standard units of the north and i hope that evens it out a bit.

[Longasc]

I think they are overpowered, too.

They already have tactical advantages of attacking nearly everywhere and where they want plus superior intelligence of coastal areas.

The berserkers are not my main complaint, okay, just guess they can handle 1:10-12 and win easily...

But all nations not having Huscarls or Jomsvikings will have a real problem against those tanks

You need indeed a HUGE numerical superiority and Archer backup plus cavalry to make it sure to survive Viking Invasions - nations that cannot develop Huscarls will have a real endgame disadvantage.

At least when the AI plays the Vikings this will be challenging.

As the Mercians, the game is far too simple -> raised a lot of facilities to produce archers and fyrdmen and won easier then ever before...

[Gregoshi]

I must be doing something wrong. I find the Vikings far from invincible. I'm playing the Vikings in my current campaign. I've only lost 1-2 battles in all but I think in nearly every battle I had higher casualties than the enemy. That is not the way to win wars. My berserkers also seem to be disappointing compared to what everyone else says. No matter what the battle, my berserkers enter the battle with 12 men and come out with only 3. Maybe I need to save some replays and find out what is happening to the berserkers.

What is the composition of the typical Viking army you field or that the AI fields? Maybe that is the difference.

[solypsist]

no prob with the Vikings here. they're pretty standard.

[Kekvit Irae]

Usually whole viking units (especially the berserkers) fall victim to the heavy spear. I like fielding Bonnachts because one salvo can rip through a full unit, and because they have an excellent attack, and that there are 100 of them. I primarily use them at my missile skirmish troops until my Gallowglasses can engage and distract the berserkers or huscarles long enough for my mounted troops to flank them.

[Brutal DLX]

Hi Gregoshi
Generally, I'm using a fairly standard army when playing as the Vikings. Three archers, two spearmen, two raider cavalry, 4 simple carls (cost effective) and the rest is a mix of landsmen, huscarls and Jomsvikings.
I'm using Berserkers sparsely, mainly for castle assaults and prefer to build them only after I constructed a weaponsmith and armourer. Then it's also good to use at least two units of them, so you may combine them after battle and get a full unit of higher valour ones, that's when they really start to rock.
Jomsvikings are just unfair though, they are like 60 powered up Berserkers, with better armour.
And yes, it's not good to lose more men than the enemy, because initially you have less income and it's expensive spending money again and again on training new units when that money could be spent on upgrading your provinces. So that's why I usually employ hit and run tactics and rarely ever fight a battle for the first decades.

[Sockeye]

I just built my first 2 units of Jomsvikings - and the first battle to test them out was against 1 unit of Royal Bodyguard and 1 unit of Urban Militia (they were Mercians). I was looking forward to the slaughter, and sure enough the unit facing up to the Royal bodyguard wasted them, losing just 7 men. The unit attacking the Urban militia, however, was in trouble, eventualy winning but losing 53 MEN (the battle was in a forest, my choosing to limit the effectiveness of the cav. Could this have had an impact?)

After the battle they combined to form a single unit of 60.

Now, I've not come up against UM again, but for the cost and length of time to construct the Joms I was very dissapointed with their performance - was this a one off, or is this unit ineffective against Urban Miltia?

Cheers,
Sockeye

[Coldstream]

As the Vikings I usualy leave Thralls and Cavalry at the wayside. My typical armies will comprise of about 1-2 Huscarls (King, Princes) a good 4-5 Landsmenn, 2-3 Carls, possibly a cavalry unit if I have a spare one kicking around, 1 ballista (for laughs), 2-3 archer units, and a smattering of Beserkers, Jomsvikins and whatever else I have laying about.

The one thing I have learned with the Vikings is that no matter what your situation, ALWAYS go on the attack. If you're defending a map, get your guys on a nice hill and charge downhill when the enemy is in range. If you're attacking, bombard them with arrows and then charge. The Vikings are really nothing to write home about on defense; they thrive on the attack. If I have Thralls laying about, I use them in a frontal assault, then flank the engaged enemy units with Landsmenn. Bloodbath ahoy

When playing the Vikings, it's good to work yourself into their mindset: Bloodlust. Just attack recklessly. If there's an enemy out there, find him and kill him.

It'll pay off.

P.S. Kill the Generals ASAP. Bring Cav. to take prisoners for cash.

[MonkeyMan]

Don't really like the beserkers myself, but a few hardcore armies of heavily armoured hauscarls, jomsvikings etc can't really be beaten except by a concerted missile attack. My viking strategy is to have one hardcore army, and send it out to wreak havok and make money, while I build another one, making sure it stops back for repars ever 5-10 years. Eventually I have two such armies and then a third and so on until everone is so weak I can start moving thralls into the provinces I take rather than trashing them. Works great and you get some lovely bloody battles along the way. Only really the most powerful enemy units that pose a problem, but then when your making so much money losses are easy to replace http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Funky Phantom]

Quote[/b] (Sockeye @ May 27 2003,03:39)]Now, I've not come up against UM again, but for the cost and length of time to construct the Joms I was very dissapointed with their performance - was this a one off, or is this unit ineffective against Urban Miltia?
Id say that this was due to the urban militia's armour piercing ability which will make them effective against both Jomsvikings and Housecarls, whereas against the unarmoured Beserkers they would amount to little more than than a slight annoyance...

Charging armoured units into a unit with armour piercing weapons is a bit like charging your cavalry into a unit of swiss armoured pikemen and beaing shocked at the consequences http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The_Emperor]

Vikings are far from invincible... the trick is to know how to beat them.

Huscarles can be a real annoyance, but as has been said above, you need to whittle downt heir numbers with archers and use armour piercing units.

And of course Always outflank

Keep at it and you'll find a winning formula that works for you.

[Longasc]

I do not think that it is good to describe how you can beat Vikings with high tactical superiority.

If you would use them as tricky as you use your troops, what would be the result?

The sheer fighting power of Landsmen is that of chivalric Men-At-Arms attacking spearman unit, ughs...

Playing as the vikings, I had the AI always RUN and take cover atop a hill, and even THEN it RAN and RAN and I was running after them so much that I spared 1-2 Raider Cavalry for hunting down those many routing enemies.

Nothing except Saxon Huscarls can Vikings really fight on better terms than 1:3. Only high/mid level cavalry units charging into the back of a Landsmen/Huscarl unit fighting Fyrdmen or so can really have considerable impact.

The advantage against the AI is that it is infantry heavy and easy to encircle, but it is not too easy to get good cavalry early on. So you must rely on many archers to puncture them before you sacrifice lots of your infantry troops to stop or finally defeat them.

[Wolf_Nashwan]

Listen up m8s, first of all remember that vikings got only 1 sorta cav + the 4 max setting, where 5th cost more and 6 even more and so on... so ppl dont take often more than 4 of 1 unit, i can admit that the Viking joms are strong, but Example the Saxon warriors rocks allso, lands men and carl men aint so cool... The husculars got many other factions allso... nahh i dont see the viking as a too great faction, why i use em pretty often is that i love the music http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif /// picts is a very nice faction btw, many different cavs, with cav archers + pictish crossbowmen... ( btw the Highland clansmen i tested at valour 3, 3 weapon it got 11 in attack high moral, and can hold about 2 i think... comming with theese after missail arrows is out can be real dangerous / a tips from me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

btw u say they got nice strong sword and axe men... ( remember cavs is good against theese kinda units, block em with some swords+ spears, then come and flank with a cav and u got whole his army routing.

Wolf_Nashwan

[Nowake]

Vikings are standard ... A very good unit is the Armoured spearman ... Quite a surprise for me when first engaged them. They have a weak attack, but crush 2 units of gallowglasses as dirt.

[bhutavarna]

Quote[/b] ]A very good unit is the Armoured spearman

i totally agree. against vikings or huscarls, i would typically use them as center line as well as flanking unit if cavalries are not available. they are reliable, as long as they are not surrounded.

[Brutal DLX]

My dear mates, may I remind you that huscarls as well as Jomvikings have armour piercing attack? They cut through your armoured spearmen like a hot knife through butter. You may have a chance in SP, if the AI uses those troops sparingly and usually not in the centre line of a formation, but don't rely on any spearmen against Vikings.
They can hold them a while, but they won't win the battle for you.

[Portuguese Rebel]

I'm playing the welsh right now and those dam vikings just show up everywhere. Where did all those boats came from? No wonder the other british AIs are playing conservative allways having big garrisons. I would like to crush the vikings but i can't get near those bastards in their homeland. Will have to munch on the mercians, dam little pricks betrayed me... And my kings wife and daughter in law are mercians... Guess im gonna send them back and remarry some fine welsh noblemen's daughters... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Mount Suribachi]

1st things 1st.

I like the fact that the Vikings are tough to beat. I'm coming to the end of my 1st campaign as the Mercians. I've conquered all of Britain, bar the scottish islands (Viking) and Ireland (all Irish). I can't invade Ireland cos other than the south coast, the sea is covered in unbeatable Viking warships. I can't invade Scandanavia cos my ships won't reach, and the Vikings have total Naval supremacy. I can try to bribe the Viking garrisons there, and if I succeed I get a loyalist rebellion the next turn and I can't reinforce. I have managed to totally destroy their infrastructure through this tactic, but I just can't wipe them out...And if I did wipe them out, I would get a bloody faction re-emergence with 5000 high quality Vikings...

All in all, it makes the end-game a lot more of a challenge, which is a good thing IMO. I know I don't have to take Scandanavia, but they're really, really seeing me off know and I want them dead http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

On the battlefield they are tough...on expert, with the AI bonus, they are really tough. My armies (4 AS, 4 SH, 4 A, 2 RB, 2 MS) have fought some real tough battles. All my armies are teched up to the max and even then I've lost sometimes. Wins are usually costly. Even my quality Saxon Huscarles struggle against lowly Viking thralls. My usual tactic is armoured spearmen in the centre to hold the line and engage the enemy. Huscarles to plug gaps and hit the flanks and my Cav to come round and hit the rear of the engaged enemy.

It must be real tough for the Picts/Scots/Irish/Welsh to take on the Vikings...I must play them next... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[BDC]

Yes, conquered most of Britain as the Saxons then as I finish off the last other factions the Vikings attack, leaving my heaviest armies isolated in Scotland and the rest of my kingdom (most the south) in danger. The trade goes and so does most the income, and my navy is cut to shreds by even the lowliest of viking ships. The only troops who are any good against the housecarles are my own ones, and even they have trouble. Plus the vikings have nearly every stack led by a 6* or higher ex-heir.

[Portuguese Rebel]

Any faction without heavy infantry has to feed dog chow to those goddam vikings. I tell ya... those armoured vikings eat up my celtics for breakfast and spears are useless too, since i've yet to them using any cavalry. And what about those 8 plus stars generals they have...wow...

I can handle anything on the british islandsand i've conquered all ireland but those pesky vikings are keeping me on my guard in my rear provinces, so i can't throw all my might agaisnt those bloody mercians. Bastards, atacked me, NOW THEY ARE GONNA PAY http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Red Harvest]

To beat the vikings I use this strategy: 1. Lots of archers, focus on the Huscarles and Berzerkers, slaughter them before they reach your main army. 2. War of attrition (when necessary pelt them with arrows, then withdraw to the castle--you will only lose things like churches and abbey's since the vikings can rarely manage a siege). 3. Metalsmith and church and other morale upgrades. 4. Build a naval stack when you can (build multiple upgraded ships to appear in the same sea zone on the same turn. 5. Hide a scrap unit in trees so that the AI comes forward in strung out mode searching for the non-visible troops--this will allow you to kill some other good units piecemeal. 6. Kill the 8 or 9 star generals if you capture them...once they are gone the small viking armies are easily dispatched.

The real problem is those high valour generals. The viking generals will build up skilled attacker and skilled defender or skilled risky attacks, etc. while kicking the snot out of AI factions. Then you will have your 3 star generals with 500 men facing 300 vikings led by a 9 star killer. You don't have to win, just bloody them enough that a reinforcing army can kill them.

The main problem as vikings is money and religion (on expert anyway.) It is hard to actually occupy land because it degrades to minimal forest clearing when you capture and you need huge occupation forces to prevent revolt while you build up pagan shrines and border forts. Focus on metal containing territories and high income areas. Deny the AI income and upgraded territories that produce Saxon Housecarles.

[Longasc]

Good Strategies. I would not challenge the Viking seapower, but otherwise it's great.

I think the main problem is that most of us want to win every battle and do not have the patience to wear down viking armies in multiple battles.

[LordUxbridge]

Im absolutely loving the campaign im playing as the Vikings (Hard) at the moment. Ive decided to go for the pure raider/trader strategy, and am forgoing major territorial expansion, as everytime i try to, it seems to mess up my economy. Anyhow, i started off by gettin as many ships into the sea as possible, and surrounding the British Isles. Now every province (apart from those land locked one) is at my mercy. I build up 2-3 raiding parties (composing of Joms Vikings and Viking Huscarles, maybe a couple of units of raider Cavalry and i dont bother with archers)and then go on the rampage. After a while (and with constant reinforcements)I have a couple of like 9-star plus Generals that seems to go through enemies like butter. In fact their so scary to the AI that he will often surrender a territory to me without a fight, even when im outnumbered 2/3/4:1 I love it Maybe a little unrealistic but it sure is FUN. I dont keep hold of the territories i conquer, but sure as hell make sure i destroy EVERYTHING in my path (hey, you gotta love burning those stockades and fortified villages to the ground, i always make sure i rip down the church as well) I am in a constant state of war with all the factions, and my constant raiding has been the end of some factions. For example: the Mercians had built themselves up a nice little Kingdom (big armies, lots of income)while i was rampaging through Scotland and the Isles (i had reduced Scotland to a load of rebel provinces by then). Then the Mercians decided to attack one of my longships.....BIG MISTAKE. For the next 20 years i relentlessly raided up and down the Mercian coast, destroying everything and butchering their armies. I pretty much caused their Kingdom to collapse, as they now have only 1/3 the territory, the Saxons making gains while the Mercians suffer. The Saxons are now the richest (guess who my next target is&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and ive been raiding further inland to get my hands on some nice juicy untouched land. One other thing: The Irish are completely cut of as no-one has ships as yet (apart from me) yet they have these absolutley HUGE armies that have deterred me from raiding there. I thought id get them on my side so proposed an alliance. Word came back that 'he could see no advantage to him at this time'.....that pissed me off so i took my three by now God like raiding armies and dropped them on (Bragnt??) the irish capital that was strangely under defended. Their King retreated immediately, leaving me 16,000 odd florins in plunder. I destroyed the castle and moved on, winning a relatively small battle in which i was outnumbered 2:1. The Irish King then offers his daughters hand in marriage (he must have been regretting being such a smart ass before)which i accept, and then continue to plunder. Then the most amazing thing: My 1,790 battle hardened Vikings are faced with 8,500 mad Irish men, under poor command. It was getting late and i was tired so i autocalced it. Although i lost and only about 100 men returned home my 1,790 Vikings slaughtered 7,000 of the enemy.........AMAZING

[Major Robert Dump]

Armored Spearmen will beat the vikings. Go for that technology early, and build weapons/armor/morale bonus buildings for your basic spears to get you by until u get the armored.

Once you start pumping out Armored, be sure to disband the normal spearmen in order to save your budget. All my garrisons are comprised of the Lord of the province and armored spears, and even better when I can make my uber Armoured spears a lord or duke.

[ziphnor]

Im playing a viking game on hard, and im fighting it so easy its silly

Even the 150 florin carl unit can wipe the floor with 90% of the units i encounter. Beserkers are insane as long as you avoid being surronded or shot at. The higher level viking units (like jolms) are hardly necessary(but i still build them). Im finding the game quite boring because the battles are so simple. My armies are 90% heavy infantry + a few archers and possible a raider cav. unit, there is a limit to the tactical brilliance you can employ with that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif (especially when you dont need to).

Perhaps if the AI's had a chance to actually build up some of their higher level units it might become more interesting, but its very easy to deny the AI the chance, when you can raid anywhere and be gone in two turns.

In fact the biggest problem in my game is making the opposing armies fight mine, they keep running away, even when they outnumber me 3:1 or more http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Im pretty sure its more fun playing *against* the vikings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

PS: I still like the expansion, the pre-battle screen and the castles protecting most ofthe buildings is worth the CDs weight in gold http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Heraclius]

i've played campaigns with the welsh and irish and found them to be beatable. The key is lots of missile units and a good flanking attack. On the attack you must shoot them with arrows until you run out of ammo, charge with armored spearmen and then flank with cavalry and celtic warriors. On the defense find a nice big hill, pelt them with arrows, charge with the spearmen and flank. it works pretty well.