View Full Version : Advantage of a defender in MP...
I have checked out the battles of most of the top 100 players. Seems like the odd of winning as a defender is very high. Why is that so?
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tootee the toothless warrior (aka goldfish shimazu)
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selection of things, unfair maps, unbalanced armies, the skill of the players you are looking at, ability of the defender (usually host) to quit cheatingly if he is being defeated, that kinda thing
Don't be too negative Whitey.
In a game there has to be a defender anyway. So don't blame them as 'easy' winners.
Defending always gives an advantage of course, usually the defender got the heights of a map...I play Totomi and often attack it, it is just a little bit more challenging.
On the other hand, yes there is a number of campers and escapers out there.
Tera
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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.
Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
theforce
10-26-2001, 01:07
We the defender as said takes the hight but you can use your wits and find a way yo bring him down.
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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com
tootee,
I would say it's the height advantage the defender can get if he wants it. The attacker is under an unwritten obligation to attack, and the defender picks the spot. If the attacker attempts to pick the spot the defender tends to get upset. The advantage of height is significant even for a small rise. It's the slope that's important, and engaging at the maximum slope is what you try to do. Totomi has a number of such places.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
I play green and totomi in defence. Flat fair and fairly unbiased. A good attacker can bring an openent on the flat terrain on these maps. I have done it may self. The attacker holds the initiative and the weather so they have the advantage. The attacker can catch the defender wrong footed and set in a panic. Its a shame people use such biased maps.
[This message has been edited by LordTed (edited 10-25-2001).]
just play totomi, green and other fairly flat maps for comp games, not castle, river maps etc. As LordTed said, attackers sometimes have the choice to render enemy guns useless before a battle etc.
You also get to deploy when you attack, so whats the difference?
TakeshidaSo
10-26-2001, 04:25
God told me that defenders have many advantages, over an attacker. He didnt say whether I knew them all, he just said that he didnt play with dice, and kind of left it at that. I think he might have been joking, when he said; "A lack of ability is more apparent in an attacker". Remember, those are his words, not mine.
The defender has the choice of terrain, or; the best chance to occupy a strong defensive position. A strong defensive position could offer height, cover and\or concealment advantages. People should practice the defense of a good position, but shouldnt find it that difficult.
The Attacker has to be able to manuever his army towards the defenders location, and attack in relatively good order (if not in precision), while at the same time avoiding fatigue. This is the only way to overcome even a poor defense of a good position.
The defender has the choice of timing, or; a chance to seize the initiative, by attacking from defensive positions. This could be the ultimate strength of certain positions. Surprise is an element that is accounted for, in more ways than one.
An attacker often forgets his duties to reconnotier the terrain along his approach. If the attacking army looses formation, becomes tired, and then is surprised by a defender with the advantages of terrain; the attack wouldnt be expected to succeed.
very few defenders decide to take the inititave, even if the attacker is coming through a poor route - most people tend to have very fixed ideas in this way...
On Totomi there are many traps for the defender.
You just have to find them from experience.
Tera
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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.
Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
BakaGaijin
10-26-2001, 06:59
Eh, defences aren't that hard. Every defence has a counter. Unless there are monks involved. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
I don't play multiplayer but i have a suggestion for you guys. Since defenders have the advantage of getting the good spots and shooting their arrows first, why not give them less koku than attackers when buying troops? This system is done in Combat Mission (if you guys know that game). Just a suggestion. Don't know if you guys are doing it already.
From my experience with the new MI, I really feel the defender (in 1v1) has an edge over the attacker (given that the players are equally good), because
a. as mentioned, the attacker has the unwritten obligation to attack, thus to manoeuvre. Keeping an army in good formation while doing so is not easy for newbie. Thus this weakness is amplified more for the attacker.
b. the defender chooses the ground. on whatever map, I think as long as one is familiar with it and know the death ground an d killing zones, the defender has an edge in this aspect. So 99% of times the defender will be on higher ground and better slope. Given the same number of musk, on a shoot-out, the attacker will lose more eventually. And the atttacker can't send in his trooop purely frontal to route the opponent musk, because usually the attacker expose his troops to the raining bullets 1st, before the defender send in his warriors into H2H in front of his musk. After that, the attacker is much nearer to the enemy musk then his musk is to the enemy H2H warriors. In moving his musk forward, he loses the musk effect and thus momentum.
c. Given similiar ability, the attacker if choose to manoeuvre and outflank, the defender can counter that.
d. The defender can seize opportunity to attack from better position, while usually the attack can only attack from inferior position, even on a 'fair' map like totomi (well.. green is a difference story) I think.
e. Previously in STW, a attacker, having control over weather, can bet for a raining day thus rendering the defender musk useless. Now the musk can still fire, and at close range, is still devastating.
Do the top 100 players on the ladder has equal number of offensive/defensive win?
Just my five koku.
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tootee the toothless warrior (aka goldfish shimazu)
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Tachikaze
10-26-2001, 14:37
All of the main reasons for defenders winning more games are posted above.
I wanted to add, though, that the attacker has the advantage of choosing when to engage, and has more mobility. The attacker can control the game. It is like putting your opponent on the defensive in chess. Once you have done that, you are half way to victory. It is your game to lose.
Experience, creative thinking, and experimentation are the keys. These days, with my standard opponents and me, the rule is reversed: usually the attacker wins.
why don't we have a "meetig engagement" MP battle? I hear there's a "king of the hill" battle in MI... is that true. I have MI but haven't checked it out yet.
I haven't try that.. hardly anyone host such games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif or wanna play them.
--tootee aka goldfish shimazu
For some reason there seems to be an unwritten rule for most of the online players, and even moreso the newer players; that being a defender bears an obligation to sit and wait for the attacker. To me this is absolutely ridiculous and is something that Magyar has mentioned on more than one occasion. He, along with some others who feel the same, have gone so far as to choose the "defender" side in a battle to ensure that both sides attack.
It has even been suggested that the names of "attacker" and "defender" be taken away and changed to sides "A" and "B".
Being a defender doesn't mean waiting for someone to "come and get you". I would hope that people try to remember the old adage "the best defense is a good offense" and start moving! It's OK, you don't have to be afraid.
The best battles I have fought in the last year have been those where the defender was just as agressive as the attacker was.
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Obake
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Well said Obake http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
if u want to be a top 100 plyer u must not camp and suprise the on comin enemy....
Catch them offguard
I like what you say Obake. Atttaaccckk..!
"a good defence is a good offence.. a good offence is a good defence.. When you are strong, pretend you are weak.. when you are weak, make your enemy think you are o'mighty.."
--tootee aka goldfish shimazu
hmmm.
fair?
with this gunoverload its never fair!
mostly the winner is, who got more guns,
so we cant talk about skills.
and, the defender have a big advance, he dont need to move his units
he can wait, with his fresh guys and shoot the shit out of u!
we better talk about battles with maybe 1 gun
or NO gun.
THan and only than u can see the skills of the players, and than and only than im happy to attack u!
ur Nice Guy
Obake,
Certainly, at least one player must be willing to attack for there to be a battle, but both sides don't have to attack. I think a defensive, counterattacking style of play is perfectly valid. Some players can easily switch between the two styles of play, but not eveyone can. If I encounter a defensive style player, I attack. I don't say to him, "you are the attacker, so you have to attack". I guess it's a problem if you want to play defense once in a while, and you can't find anybody willing to attack you.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
I believe as well that low koku games favor the defenders that camp. It is hard to assault an army that has very many guns at all with such low honor troops.
If ye dont like guns, ye can always play the Mongol era as Jap vs Jap...
Me thinks the defender/attacker mentalities come from the SP campaign, where the defender is rewarded with holding tight until the timer expires to win. The same notion is then carried over into MP.
Me thinks that adding the ability to have guns fire in rain took away some of the advantages of the attacker, for he now has no reason to choose inclement weather, save fog if he wants to try to sneak up on the enemy... Even if the musks firing in rain was a bug in the original, it was a 'good bug' IMO. So, instead of seeing peeps with 2-3 guns defending, now you see peeps with 6-8 guns defending! But heck, ya supposed to deal with it... Gunpowder revolutionized warfare anyway...
Maybe in the alpha patch, musks wont fire in rain. That will pretty much take care of this 'issue'...
Kocmoc,
Play on the green map, turn off fatigue and both players field exactly the same units with the same upgrades. Now it's fair, and that's the only way it's ever going to be fair.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
BakaGaijin
10-27-2001, 04:33
Meh! Timers are for weaklings. If you play with the timer, you're just begging the defender to camp. Personally, I never play timer games. In such a situation, the game really becomes a battle of wits and not a game where the defender holds all the trumps.
As attacker, you cannot put force on force and expect to win. The defender's advantages have been outlined above. To assume an offensive posture successfully is bring the enemy out of his defensive posture, not to charge directly and be slaughtered. The enemy may call you cheap or "lame" for playing a defensive-offensive posture, but it is a successful posture and one which takes true skill to employ. Anybody who complains is just frustrated that they are not capable of similar feats. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
Tachikaze
10-27-2001, 05:38
I love paying as "defender" then being as aggressive as I can. Often, the opponent has chosen an "attacker" troop selection, units better suited for mobility, rather than protection. By putting him/her on the defensive, your opponent has to rethink their original strategy. Even their formation will often need to be readjusted. Don't let them devise a strategy hours before they start the game because they think you will sit and wait for them to follow through without hinderance. Ruin their plans!
[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 10-27-2001).]
MagyarKhans Cham
10-27-2001, 09:22
almost all i read is true,
another solution would be if "they" (CA and appendixes) did some statistics on teh database and u will have an average maprating for each map.....
use this maprating when someone hostes a map. then updfate the maprating once a month for the new battles played that month.
sadly for all of us, the mapname is still not stored in teh database http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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my khans definition of honour is packed in a question... ask yourself this question before, during and after each battle.
"how fair is the challenge u provide for your enemy?"
so if u think that camping is a good thing to do and u win all games than according to my Khans definition u suck bigtime. especially if u dont provide a rematch under the same conditions.
just do a search of some highranked ones battlerecords in the database and see for yourself.
perhaps my Khan should publish his own list of best players where people can battle him to get a spot on that list....
"Arrogance and rudeness is in his name
shogun and MI is his game
i suggest, play him once
or better, play him twice
and your life will never be the same...."
hahhaha i always knew i am a poet, but delivering messages keeps me so busy. off i go.....
GALLOPgallopGALLOPgallop
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Quote I gallop messages around, dont track me I can bring war as well[/QUOTE]
[This message has been edited by MagyarKhans Cham (edited 10-27-2001).]
Muneyoshi
10-28-2001, 04:37
And if you choose rain (which makes it so musk reload time is MUCH slower) the defender will half the time call you cheap and a cheater, which is stupid. I mean WTH if your army has so many musks that you cant beat you with a REAL army then they ARE the cheap ones
sorry but attacking is far easier. . . you have all the advantages weather and initiative on where and when ur going to attack. . also if ur a good attackier YOU are the one who ends up with a height advantage. . this takes time to master but it is quite easily done all you need to do is draw the player out. . i guarentee 90% of ppl will end up attacking you!
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LOL The immortal Phrase!
WarlordWarrior
hey mag,
im sure i played u more than twice http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
and im sure too, i played with u on my side much much more http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
but its always better to pay with u than against :P
...i dont like to defend and host all the day
so i mostly join others.
I Love Attacking....still as defender i would attack.
...but sometimes im pissed off...
...many guys are not honourable on MI,
well, im back now give me 1 more week and im on the hunt again, im sure i kick many of this honourpoints of this guys....
hahahaha....what a fun...
...camping on a hill and never know why they lost :O
koc
Muneyoshi
10-28-2001, 08:40
AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH. God I hate EA. And newbies wonder why we give them so much shit about not treating their costumers right
Hmmm... are these the foundations of Jihad that I hear being murmured amongst the oppressed peoples of STW...?!?
Perhaps one day, an assault on the bastion of evil will be launched by a false prophet bearing a blue turban from the desolate land of the Mongols...
TakeshidaSo
10-30-2001, 06:29
JAG is right, everything else that was said was mistaken. The attacker has the easier time of it, by far. Of course, if your a master, and the opponent isnt, that might help a little. This is my new opinion anyway, I just cant support it as well as I did my last opinion, because God made all of my other points for me.
Vanya, the turbin was white, until someone covered his radical Islamic ass with chemicals. They seem to have started by using toilet bowl cleaner.
MagyarKhans Cham
10-30-2001, 08:20
hmmm why would warrior be right, as a defender i have the initiative. why would i let the attacker run around where i have an attacking force myself.
Papewaio
10-30-2001, 10:21
Treat it like football... double points for an away goal.
So double honour to a winning attacker then a winning defender.
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Victory first, Battle last.
Do you really think a good defender will let an attack manouver as he wants...
Tera
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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.
Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
Was OJ's road rage incident an example of the 'best defense is a good offense' proverb taken too far...? He sure didn't let the attacker 'move on him freely'! ROFLMAO http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
i just attacked an army up a hill that had 5 guns, i had eerr 3 or 4, but i won, withought rain, defending or attacking, its the player that counts.
Also, defenders are less likely to run for high ground after spending ages setting up, i think someone else said that above, sorry if they did
Krasturak
11-01-2001, 13:12
Gah!
Krast is always pleased to see his enemies immobilize themselves by clinging to slopes and hills.
All must know, that the battle is decided by the line of contact, where the infantry meet and melee occurs.
And with maneuver, you can choose the time and place, set the conditions for victory.
Of course, saying this and doing this are two different things.
But is crucial idea: to control the enemy, and make him place his troops where you want them.
ElmarkOFear
11-02-2001, 06:55
I find it easier just to set my army up on the back of the map and rout them when game starts. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Actually, camping as defender is made less of a factor when playing 2v2 and up. With a teammate, it is easier to set up flanks and 2 on 1's, plus it makes guns less of a factor if your partners know how to help out with flanks etc . . Fearful Ways was the first clan to prove that Hilly maps and camping were beatable in old STW when playing 2v2 and up with good partners. They helped train many of the current veterans in how to attack on these maps and how to beat gun armies (Except for some of the Chain clan, who were excellent in their use of muskets and teamwork). Another way to avoid a lot of these problems is to not play comp matches. They do not really prove how good a player is, they seem to cause a lot of hard feelings and they induce some to cheat/esc. Have fun and good luck, UglyElmo aka ElmarkOFear
Sjakihata
11-02-2001, 18:35
Hello !!!
I dunno if this has been discussed in this this thread, because if havn't read the whole!!
Here we go: I think that u have and advantage ad attacker in totomi, simply because there are no hills. So when you attack you make the enemys musketeers run away, or at least they get slaughtert or move behind the enemys units so the can not fire real accurate. Your own musks are claer of incoming enemy troops. The can fire at the enemys monks, nds, etc.
And I always attack like this in totomi:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If only thing is this simple http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
--tootee aka goldfish shimazu
MagyarKhans Cham
11-03-2001, 01:20
my khan uses this XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
and afterthe battles the enemy looks like this * *
* * *
* * *
(dizzy)
Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
my khan uses this XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
and afterthe battles the enemy looks like this * *
* * *
* * *
(dizzy)[/QUOTE]
Hmmm... Sending hugs to the enemy? What? No kisses? Shouldn't you be using the stardard XOXOXOXOXOXOXO formation?
Maybe you are just confused...
Hugs without kisses... GAH!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
BakaGaijin
11-04-2001, 01:28
The hugs are so imbalanced, Vanya. Way too powerful, in my opinion. Why should anyone use kisses when the hugs kill more and last longer for about the same price? Really, CA ought to downgrade the hugs a bit. I know they're supposed to be elite units, but this is ridiculous!
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
TakeshidaSo
11-04-2001, 03:40
I think its the compression, or crushing, effect that Hugs dish out. I mean the Kisses have a decent concussive impact, and medium range, but they cant stack corpses up in huge rows, like the two-handed chopping or bashing weapons.
I mean IF, they arent kissing lightly armored, and closely formed troops. However, the Kisses shouldn't be given all day to arouse you.
I agree with several of the veterans, playing comps is a thing of the past.
Why even bother when the cheats and gun-ladden campers are the ones with the big points.
I'm all for friendly games with the RWs (and other truely honourable opponenets), but haven't played online for weeks, due to the sorry state of things.
I'm hoping things might get better with the Crusaders, but I'm not holding my breath.
Cheers
MagyarKhans Cham
11-06-2001, 09:43
holding your breath till it is released?
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif maybe you'll still be holding your breath when crusader is released.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
--tootee aka goldfish shimazu
Sjakihata
11-07-2001, 02:49
Dunhill: I'm hoping things might get better with the Crusaders, but I'm NOT holding my breath.
Papewaio
11-07-2001, 11:27
Sjakihata Akechi are you really from Middel fart Denmark?
And I thought X = kisses and O = hugs
So exactly how naive am I?
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