View Full Version : Ugly Elmo Leaving
Hamhock2
05-30-2003, 12:43
And Why?
Because some veteran players can't seem to play an honest game without using the loopholes and tricks in the game for fast and easy wins
Are these people honorable? NO Are they Barney-Bad-Arse? NO They are just a couple of pathetic losers who apparently can't figure out ways to win without using these widely known cheats.
As of yesterday, Ham banned (using the #BanName tool) two of the continued users of the Thin line all cav rush army......and Ham would also encourage anybody else to do the same.
Perhaps these people who do not understand sportmanship will find less and less games to play..... and perhaps their clans will see that one of their members is not nearly as honorable as the rest of the clan.
It is just too darn bad that the entire Shogun community has lost one of its best, nicest, most honorable game hosts and players as a result.....especially since old Elmo could get his army routed faster than even me
Mithrandir
05-30-2003, 12:50
It is a great loss indeed, however I don't agree on the rest of your post.
I don't like to face an all cav rush either, yet it is part of the game.
When hosting I tell people not to pick all-cav up front.
If they do it anyway, they're banned.If I forget to tell them and they pick it, I tell them afterwards and give them another chance.
Knight_Yellow
05-30-2003, 13:10
It appears that one of the members in the clan in question has a habbit of joining a clan then completely f****** them up from the inside.
his name witch i wont type does have a lot to do with greek mythology though.
hes been in over 4 majore clans and has been kicked out them all for being a tit.
(the reason for my previous gripes about ur posts was that u called for a ban on not just the 1 player who was a tit but the entire clan)
dont worry hes been booted out.
Quote[/b] (Hamhock2 @ May 30 2003,06:43)]..... some veteran players can't seem to play an honest game without using the loopholes and tricks in the game for fast and easy wins
Are these people honorable? NO Are they Barney-Bad-Arse? NO They are just a couple of pathetic losers who apparently can't figure out ways to win without using these widely known cheats.
As of yesterday, Ham banned (using the #BanName tool) two of the continued users of the Thin line all cav rush army......and Ham would also encourage anybody else to do the same.
I've never played MP STW, so could anyone tell me what the deal is with thin line cavalry rush? Why is it a loophole, trick or a cheat?
It's not that I'm condoning the tactic (or condemning it). I've neither used it nor seen it used. I'm just curious.
KukriKhan
05-30-2003, 13:25
And while you're explaining, keep the vitriol to a minimum, and avoid naming names, as per forum rules.
Just a reminder. Lamenting the voluntary departure of a favorite player partner is one thing (and perfectly OK); hurling accusations of dishonorable cheating is another (and not OK). Note the difference when constructing your posts.
The main problem with the thin line cav is this:
The center man in a cav unit (the man holding the banner) is very important for this tactic to work.
Imagine your 40 man cav unit in a 1 rank line. You set your unit to run forward to collide with an enemy unit, not click on the enemy unit. If only part of your cav line hits the enemy...say 10-15 men then you can basically run down the enemy without combat.
Your center/banner guy in the unit..as long as he doesnt hit anything you can get that insane run down. From what I have seen you cant do frontally against spears but against cav and swords works fine. You can even do it with infantry too although the effect is not as devastating as doing it with cav.
It sometimes can feel very random when two cav unit hits each other. I have seen 20-30 enemy cav gone without me losing one man
The thin 1 rank line can be very powerful but I have seen cav in 2 ranks winning using same tactic and actually be more maneuverable.
It is a bug and can be very annoying especially if you dont have spears and dont know how to defend against it/do the same to him.
CBR
Mithrandir
05-30-2003, 14:24
You've booted out someone because he has used a tactic which some people don't like ,and other people consider just another tactic ?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
MonkeyMan
05-30-2003, 15:01
SPQR Caligular Posted
Quote[/b] ]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**** was only in SPQR for two days, hes been hounded out by the members now, I was one of the newbis in the game in question, firstly I had half foot and half cav not in lines, but I did tend to go with the flow a bit as with some of amps games you have to race to be in the game at all, SPQR has come in for a bit of criticism here because of **** and he was only on a trial period which lasted two days. Im very sorry if SPQR has upset Elmo, but **** is to blame really and not SPQR......... SPQR Caligula
I want to keep all of this in the same thread so that one will be closed.
Keep it civilised people http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Knight_Yellow
05-30-2003, 16:29
Quote[/b] (MonkeyMan @ May 30 2003,15:01)]SPQR Caligular Posted
Quote[/b] ]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**** was only in SPQR for two days, hes been hounded out by the members now, I was one of the newbis in the game in question, firstly I had half foot and half cav not in lines, but I did tend to go with the flow a bit as with some of amps games you have to race to be in the game at all, SPQR has come in for a bit of criticism here because of **** and he was only on a trial period which lasted two days. Im very sorry if SPQR has upset Elmo, but **** is to blame really and not SPQR......... SPQR Caligula
I want to keep all of this in the same thread so that one will be closed.
Keep it civilised people http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
basicly same as my above post
wasnt anything to do with SPQR it was a fool who joins clans then starts arguements.
i belive hes widely known to most vet clans.
Hamhock2
05-30-2003, 20:29
Excellent idea Mithrandir.....I will be more likely to use your rule of thumb as it is a good and fair guide to go by.
And yes, I have booted the two in question because it has been mentioned to them several times.... but I sincerely believe that they find amusement in the frustration of other players.
(They also hate to lose.... even to a good opponent and in a fair game.)
Lastly, I do not want any of my comments to reflect poorly on the honorable SPQR clan - the people I have banned are not from that clan. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
I do not consider this dishonorable nor a cheat. It is a part of game even it is a bug, so not using it is silly if you can IMO, and if I have cav. If there is someone to be blamedit is not the person using it, it is the devs. I will always use it if I have cav. You can ban me if you want now Hamhock2.
People know me online know it that I was one of the players who got affected it in a negative way most (currently I'm a Turk only player and I rely heavily on my JHI vs enemy cav) , but I never whined. I never thought the person using it was dishonorable nor a cheater.
Yes it is clearly a bug and annoyying, but I have found a way to deal with it. I have only shown it to several people and they were amazed. I can show anyone who is interested, but I won't tell anyone what I do exactly (except for my clan m8s of course). Just be creative enough to find counters instead of whining.
PS. In 1.5 hour time I'll be online, if you want I can show my counter to you. You will understand the basics of it, but you can't understand exactly what I do, and if you try to do something similiar to what I do by just observing it you will fail. You just need to make some tests and be creative.
This tactic really does point out in extreme measure how ridiculously unlike real medieval warfare the game engine is http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
In the real world, ancient and medieval armies fought by mass shock action. This means armies deployed in DEPTH. It was the physical and psychological pressure from the rear ranks pressing forward that brought victory. (See Hans Delbruck's History of the Art of War, Volume I: Warfare in Antiquity for a detailed explanation). If you deployed your forces in a long thin line attempting to outflank your enemy, while you were outflanking him, he would penetrate the center of your line and splinter your entire army. As Napoleon said, it the weaker side should not try to simultaneously envelop his enemy on both flanks.
I love this game and have lots of fun with it, but it's about as realistic as a sword and sorcery role playing game, with Elves http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Seems to me that there's nothing wrong with that tactic in question. Why don't people like it? Why is it cheating or unfair? It's unrealistic sure, but no more so than the rest of the game.
KukriKhan
05-31-2003, 04:51
So, to sum up, what we have here is:
1)a solicitation to use the #ban feature, applied to 2 MP players, who:
2)exploit a cavalry tactic they've learned, the use of which has made a favorite player/partner say he'd never play again, because
3) they, and their former clanmates are dishonorable punks, and are bad losers and are detrimental to
4) the STW(?), MTW, .Org, (pick one) community, because they
5) cheat, which other players dispute.
Is that about it?
*Kukri, shaking his head, fades back into the forest, to meditate on the folly of humans, and their propensity for argument about matters important to them, such as: the manner of movement of pixels across a viewing screen.*
SPQR Caligula
05-31-2003, 08:01
I can understand why Elmo is giving up TW, I gave up Shogun for similar reasons, most of you wouldn't remember me from Shogun because I gave it up long before most of you started, my names on shogun where HarryCarry, P0l0bear and colabear, my shogun disc wont play on line any more as it seems to be to old its the first lot of disks that where sold, ive tried to install it more times than I can remember but it just wont play whatever patches I download, it was always hell getting it to run in any case.
We have two MTWs here and two VI, one copy of mtw has only been installed twice and wont install any more, but our redalet discs install and play fine which where purchased well before we purchased the TW cds, I was on line playing Tiberian Sun as soon as the site opened and played it everyday until the kids took over the site, it was the cheating that ruined Tiberian Sun for me, and as it got worse the game and the site died off, the cheats didn't seem to be aware that they where killing the game off.
When I first started with PCs there where six operating systems and most people didn't like MS DOS at all, the www consisted of two empty web pages and my modem was bigger then than my computer is now, I gave computers up for several years and when I came back to computers found that windows had won the operating system war, there is a lesson to be learned about cheating here, unfortunately for me I have never been able to cheat, the British are renowned for having a sense of fair play, and we have for some reason, it wasn't until I started playing games with people from all over the world that I realised that there were so many cheats in the rest of the world, I have got a tendency to give games up, and when I do I hardly ever play them again, and that's exactly what I will be doing when the cheating starts on TW.
SPQR Caligula
i know exaty what you are talking about Caligula, its not that i abhore cheating, its rather i dislike those who insist on it. They know where a hole or flaw is, and instead of avoiding it, they use it. These are the types of gamers that play to win at all costs, even if it means cheating. If you cant take losing, then i suggest you dont play, because people who cannot gracefully lose Shit me.
kyodai-britishbeef
05-31-2003, 09:49
I think the long single line tactic should have been tackled by the developers and would have enhanced our game play endlessly(why couldnt a strong block of men 10 by 6 be the strongest formation able to totally destroy a long thin line http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif but i will use a single line of cav against an enemy, we all know about this so its not really unfair or a cheat but does not look pretty. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
GDukeofKiev
05-31-2003, 12:42
It appears that The long liner tactic doesn't work very well in Viking Era.......the Cav just isn't up to it.
In MTW proper, setting up a checkerboard infantry line simular to the Roman Cohort line formation defeats the long liner tactic also....
S=Spear (5 Deep)
I=Infantry (2 deep)
--place holder (ascii !http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
SSSS--------SSSS-----SSSS
-------IIII----------IIII-------IIII
Place missile & cav as you desire.......
Just prior to impact--charge with the infantry.
Crandaeolon
05-31-2003, 13:47
Kanuni, you're really starting to sound like a Wolf. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I wouldn't call the wide line tactic cheating. It's mentioned in the Strategy Guide as a technique to help swords beat spears. However, as applied to cav and combined with the run-through bug, the technique is so effective that it drives the gameplay into a more limited type of play. Wide lines detract from the maneuving and matching up of individual units and replaces it with an off-center rush to get the wrap around effect. You can also adopt a surround strategy against a slower infantry army and sweep in from several angles. I think it's actually bad to target individual units when using the technique, so that aspect of the gameplay is pretty much eliminated.
I see corner camping as a legitimate counter to wide line tactics. A trend can develop whereby the gameplay becomes less and less interesting as the exploits become larger and larger. Techniques that I find helpful in preserving a richer gameplay in the face of wide line cav is always face the enemy, use hold formation to receive the charge and then switching to engage-at-will after the charge is over, keep inf units together and countercharge in one-on-one situations since that seems more likely to engaged the enemy unit commander.
SPQR Caligula
05-31-2003, 17:47
No I wouldn't call the wide line tactic cheating. Cheating isn't in TW yet, and yes corner camping sounds good even if they haven't got any cav at all , do the lines work with camels.
SPQR Caligula
Mithrandir
05-31-2003, 18:13
Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ May 31 2003,09:09)]
good luck rushing your inf to map corners http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif .
Hope they can run fast. I only see it in about 1 to every 500 games now. Thin lines whining has gone further than the actual exploits...(no insult towards Elmo btw.).
Portuguese Rebel
06-01-2003, 14:00
I think we must make a difference here between a cheat and an exploit. This tactic is clearly an exploit of a programming flaw.
Cheating is something else. If someone never encountered cheating (if its their 1st day online or something...) its plain easy to find it. Just go play counter-strike for a while and you will see. If you spot a guy getting tons of head shots, that seems to know you are coming every single time, that shoots you through objects... well you have a nice candidate, just spectate him a while and be amazed with his eerrr... skil (thats what they call it everytime, never saw a single guy admit he is cheating). It was because of this that i stopped playing CS. I saw it go gay. And now it is starting to happen to DoD (Day of Defeat, another HL mod, wich is my favourite).
The cheater ruins everybodys experience. What do they get from it? They prove they have en efficient hack?
Cheater psychological profile:
1- Major looser with no skill whatsoever;
2- No girlfriend, probably never kissed a conscient girl in his life, exept his sister;
3- Has no social life;
4- Keeps trying to find a game he is good at so he doesnt have to cheat;
5- Gives up trying to win just and fair in every game real fast than resorts to cheating;
6- Cheats in more than one game;
7- Has no sense of sportsmanship or honour;
8- Thinks the world is generally unfair to him (due to his lack of social skills) so he is entitled to be unfair to the world, i.e, cheating;
9- Never admits that he his cheating even when it is real obvious, since that equats to admiting he is a loooooser (wich he unavoidably is);
10- When discovered cheating, he usually starts calling names and saying things like you're a noob, it isn't cheating its skill, and this even if you have been playing the game for years and recognized by most of the gaming community has someone who know what he is doing (this leads to the point that most cheaters are in fact noobs themselves because they can't recognize your clan or name).
Sorry if this is a little bit of topic, but i just needed to let this go out of my chest http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Hamhock2
06-01-2003, 20:32
Excellent point Rebel This is truly more of an exploit of a loophole in the game rather than a true cheat. I stand corrected. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Although I would have to say that an exploiter also demonstrates many of the same traits that you listed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Orda Khan
06-02-2003, 19:11
I've been reminded too many times that this is just a game and there is no realism. Too bad, I prefer to see a battle look like a battle.
I have also heard 'it's part if the game' over and over. My question is:
'Does it have to be?'
.....Orda
ErikJansen
06-02-2003, 19:18
Nope it does not...
I don't Multiplay and may or may not one day, but here's my take on this cav-line situation.
No, it isn't at all realistic.
No, it isn't a cheat.
An exploit, probably.
Fixable? Easily.
All they'd have to do is downgrade Morale whenever the unit became wider than it was deep (increasing penalties as that ratio worsens,) or at least have individual men go into Rout when a combat death separated them from the flag-bearer (which won't happen in depth, but WILL happen to single lines.)
Near as I can determine, that is EXACTLY what happened in combat in that era when such idiotic tactics were attempted.
The thin line would still work (somewhat? well?) against fleeing enemies, but would otherwise be as stupid in MP as it would be in actual combat.
That morale adjustment definitely can't fix the issue m8. Just try the cav. swipe trick at custom battle to an anti cav. inf unit (non-spear, like JHI or CFK) which would normally beat the cav. you use. You'll be amazed at how fast and easy the infantry routs.
IMO, there needs to be made 2 fixes immediately:
1. Units should have a maximum width limitation (just to make things a bit realistic)
2. Cav. swipe bug should be fixed. When any individual unit in a cav. unit face an opponent when they are running, they need to stop before contacting (so that they don't swipe them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )
I read my post once more and I saw that I maybe could not explain myself well.
I did not want to critisize UglyElmo for leaving, what he is doing is not whining. He's just unhappy about some non-sense tricks and he decides to leave.
What I tried to mean by whining here is calling someone who uses this exploit as a cheater or dishonorable. I think banning them is nonsense.
As I said before I have found a counter for this, and it is not just hold formation. Hold formation does not stop the infantry to rout. Eventhough I have a counter for this and it has been approved by some vets, I still wish that this bug bug should be corrected. My counter is just non-sense just like this bug as well.
So what do you think? Should we start something like a campaign demanding from the devs that these 2 corrections should be made? Such non-sense bugs are really annoying, it is affecting the game play and causing us to lose some valuable members of the community like Ugly Elmo. Some of them are just silently playing less and less each day, and silently more valuable people will lose interest in the game if such non-sense bugs are not corrected.
So, what do you say? Shall we demand a patch?
Quote[/b] (Kanuni @ June 02 2003,14:23)]1. Units should have a maximum width limitation (just to make things a bit realistic)
2. Cav. swipe bug should be fixed. When any individual unit in a cav. unit face an opponent when they are running, they need to stop before contacting (so that they don't swipe them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )
I agree, sort of. If not for the problems of units that are sometimes much smaller than their maximum troop strength, I'd go with the max width idea.
I would prefer a maximum width-to-depth ratio.
Basically, it would be based on the type of unit, and would not allow the width to exceed the depth by more than a set ratio. The more elite the unit, the higher that ratio might be. Peasants might be close to a 1:1 ratio, meaning they have to be almost square (except a Wedge, I guess,) while elite units could deploy in more elongated formations. Like a 4:1 ratio would require one rank of depth for every four men across the front, so a 20 x 5 = 100 man unit gives you a ratio of 20 / 5 = 4. 4:1. If they lost 20 men, they could no longer have a 20 man front, as that would be a 5:1 ratio. As they lose men, they have to shorten the front to maintain depth.
However, it can be done by making it impossible, or just costly for Morale. Like, you can order them to do it, but ordering a single unit to deploy 40 across and 1 deep is gonna cause a really high Huh? What? You're kidding, right? factor among the troops, as in poor Morale.
I think the cav swipe IS overpowered, but the potential has to be retained. The concept is that they just run down what's in their path, and without that potential, they aren't up to cav's full capabilities. There ARE units they should not be able to do this against, like against the front of spearmen, or cavalry units, but I don't have any problem with an armored cavalry unit charging through peasants or artillery pieces and mowing them down like so much wheat.
Patch? In our dreams.
To be honest, I do not like MTW as a Multiplayer game for various reasons, just not a true MP-game IMO.
But THOSE bugs MUST be fixed... there are even some new affecting SP that were introduced with VI.
But it seems as if they will finish Rome: TW and leave MTW in the current state.
A bad thing. And while there is virtually nothing known about RTW, even the community gasps and applauds to Eye Candy. It was not only the graphics that made Shogun and Medieval great. Let's hope RTW has some less bugs and a gameplay worthy to be the successor of those two games. And will not become what Panzer General 3D Assault became to Panzer General 1/2...
Good ideas Popeye, especially the width-depth ratio is nice. But I disagree about one thing:
Quote[/b] ]I think the cav swipe IS overpowered, but the potential has to be retained. The concept is that they just run down what's in their path, and without that potential, they aren't up to cav's full capabilities. There ARE units they should not be able to do this against, like against the front of spearmen, or cavalry units, but I don't have any problem with an armored cavalry unit charging through peasants or artillery pieces and mowing them down like so much wheat.
Well afterall, even if we agree that cav. should really run over some units, regular charging should do this. Charge for cav. does not mean hit and stop right? But let's assume running behind an infantry unit is a new style of using cavalry. Then why does the cavalry stop when the unit's flag holder's path is intercepted and does not stop when it is not? In the game you need to approach with an angle so that the flag will run freely for the swipe effect.
And let's assume that you are right, let's assume that running through and charing are different and the cavalry should run through some units. But it shouldn't be able to run through all units like spears as you said, but also some anti-cav. units such as JHI, CFK, Billmen etc... This bug makes non-spear anti cav. units COMPLETELY USELESS as they run immediately after the first few seconds of contact.
Portuguese Rebel
06-02-2003, 23:39
Quote[/b] (Hamhock2 @ June 01 2003,14:32)]Although I would have to say that an exploiter also demonstrates many of the same traits that you listed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Yes he does but an exploiter is a little bit higher in my scale since he has at least the brains to find and use a flaw.
No one would remember me or really care, but i played shogun when it first came out. It was and is a great game. But like all great things some people turn it sour. I left the MP side when people started using cheats so often that i found it impossible to get a good fair fight. Some people should realise the damage caused by new players being hit with such experiences, and the frustration of good long term players in these unfair practices. It is ok to use a good tactic to your advantage, and even a glitch as long as others are aware. But plain cheating kills the game, and in the end you will have no one to fight against. And a word of caution to older or long term players. Dont bag the new guy or refuse to fight because he has only a 56k modem. Give them a chance to enjoy the game as well and if they have a positive experience then one day they may be the next hotshot you meet with Broadband and a top machine because they enjoyed themselves so much.
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