View Full Version : 5k florin battles suck!
Yes laugh all you want but I must say I'm very interested in trying them out some more. I have not met much interest in the foyer and most likely no one will bother with it no matter what reasons I come up with...but at least I will try this last and long rant...
We now got a +2 morale increase in VI but people still wanna play at 15k..yes some are playing 12k now. People want the money so they can buy valour so units fight longer..the question is do they really fight that much longer and what other effects do we get from playing at such high florins compared to 5k?
My guess is that no matter what florin level we pick some will like and some will hate it and it will have some kind of problem regarding balance.
I dont have much experience in 5k battles but I do see a lot of advantages..at least in theory.
We want lots of money so we can buy valour for units so they fight longer right? But that means spears gets weaker even if they actually have v2 because what is it they encounter? v3-4 men at arms and militia sergeants.
Having just one more valour compared to spears is really enough to make orderfoot a waste of money against chivalric men at arms. From a rather equal fight it turns into a clear defeat for the spears...yes you have 4 more in morale with v2 but with higher casualty rate and losing badly most of the time I would say its one step forward two steps backward.
So what about cavalry then? It would rule even more now that you cant upgrade your infantry? First of all we dont have the valour gain during a battle and you cant buy much cavalry with 5k anyway. Yes your heavy cavalry will be important but with less of it and more spears I would say that the infamous all cav rush army is not that strong anymore.
All in all a 5k army is a lot more balanced than a 12k or 15k army. Shock units cant get all these silly upgrades to wipe out spears and low valour shock units have big problems against cavalry so you need spears. Maybe missile units are a bit expensive but if we take High era then pav crossbows is only 225 florins and even archers are better as you cant buy just the best armoured units...you simply dont have enough money.
One of the arguments against 5k games has been that units just rout so quickly and games only last a few minutes. To that I will say that any rush, even at 15k, will really only last a few minutes before someone has lost and with more spears (because they have more defense than attack) in the armies, maybe 5k rushes could even last longer. And I dont understand the idea that just because its 5k and lower morale its all about rush?
Some of the problems is really when people try to use same army that they use in 15k games: loads of shock units and few if any spears... they charge with everything and expects to roll over enemy spears while not caring that much about enemy cavalry.
So whats the conclusion? Gameplay at 5k is different but it shouldnt be considered a waste of time nor simple. Yes someone might find some good reasons/examples of why 5k suck but several of the arguments I have heard so far is more myth than fact.
The morale increase in VI is an excellent chance to consider 5k games...at least try them out seriously. Playing some 5k battles is IMO the only way to judge how good or bad it is.
CBR
CBR:
Nothing wrong with 5K battles. At low florin levels I see people using units that never get used in high florin games, so it provides diversity.
Quote[/b] ]People want the money so they can buy valour so units fight longer..the question is do they really fight that much longer and what other effects do we get from playing at such high florins compared to 5k?
I think that units do fight longer at higher valor levels. One reason the I like 15-20K games is that I can afford to balance out my units - I like high valor spears/OFS/Byz Inf. At V4 they hold up long enough to get shock troops to help.
What I see a lot of, but do not really care for, are the very high florin games.
I think its fun to play at different levels.
ichi
Skomatth
05-31-2003, 23:10
One thing that's better with 5k is definitely less upgrades. IN my opinion upgrades rui
n THE balance originally intended. Upgrades would work if all the units were priced the same but since they're not...
One combat point in either attack or defense different usually results in the winner having 10 men more or less when the loser routs. This is why a small couple of points can be exploited and turn a unit into a "super unit".
I'll try some with you as I've resolved not to play 2.0 15k battles after some goofy ones. We both know how easy it is to change morale too. We could have some fun making all morale 6 (best for vi i think) and then trying 5k battles.
well they are fun, but my alamohad 4 naptha/4 Muribitan army can rout nearly anything in 5k.. i tried it last night... amazing to say the very least (4 napthas on one target, simultaneus hit will just about automatically rout them, forcing a chain rout)
I'm interested in trying those 5k games too. New air for the game, even if everything routs easily, there is always a way to avoid a chain rout (although I don't always find it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )
Div Hunter
06-01-2003, 06:13
You're wrong about the cav CBR they aren't just a bit more potent they totally dominate 5k battles. A single all cav army can rout an army in seconds on just as easily wrap up the rest of their enemies.
5k battles do suck because they are either about fear or cav. A balanced army almost cannot win against an army with guns, naptha or is cav heavy with 2 exceptions. A balanced Swiss or Papacy army may be able to defeat an all cav army because of the quality pikes.
Well I did host/play 5k and even 2 k battles quite often in 1.1, the main difficulty with them was that they were very difficult to fill up and you got a mix of veterans who actually dared trying something new ( very very few ) and complete noobs who obviously didnt had a clue about what 5k was ....
At 2k due to the imbalanced army values byzantines were unbeatable ( byz inf + alans ) ....
at 5k cavalry rules, what you had to do was simply to appera on someones flank and look menacing ...the low base morale spears and archery units became useless quickly...
As i most often couldnt get enough people to fill up a 3 vs 3 at 5k when there were 120 ppl in the lobby it feels like a waste of time to even try to host those in 2.0.
And it is quite obvious from the polls and games being hosted that a clear majority want 15k a smaller but sizeable number want 12k and basically noone wants to play belov that...
Anyway if anyone sees me in the lobby and wants to play 5k just say so http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
TGI
Quote[/b] (Alrowan @ June 01 2003,04:30)]well they are fun, but my alamohad 4 naptha/4 Muribitan army can rout nearly anything in 5k.. i tried it last night... amazing to say the very least (4 napthas on one target, simultaneus hit will just about automatically rout them, forcing a chain rout)
Hm yes naptha might be very powerful. I'll see how quickly I rout next time we meet on the server http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
CBR
Quote[/b] (Div Hunter @ June 01 2003,07:13)]You're wrong about the cav CBR they aren't just a bit more potent they totally dominate 5k battles. A single all cav army can rout an army in seconds on just as easily wrap up the rest of their enemies.
Well I have seen all cav armies do that in 15k games too.
All I know is that in 5k there is a smaller difference in cav power for the all cav compared to the balanced army and at 5k spears are less crap against shock foot.
Yes morale is lower so a cav flank/rear attack can be more devastating.
But as I said in the first post, there might be some balance issues in 5k battles too, its just that some of the main reasons I have heard so far are not that good reasons when you think about it. It took some time for us just to realize how to fight lots of cav at higher florins and with 5k that might take some experience too.
And Im willing to get cav rushed just to see it for myself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
CBR
Brutal DLX
06-02-2003, 09:26
I've never seen a 5k game being hosted in VI. But I would join, just to give it a try.
Those 4v4 on steppe are becoming boring. Maybe they're over more quickly at 5k. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Well we had some nice 5k battles yesterday. I found the 2 3v3 to be very good. I saw lots of cav archers being used and playing in early means a bit shorter battles as you dont have crossbows.
But try to play on other maps than steppe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif We even have a very good mappack with lots of large maps.
CBR
Brutal DLX
06-02-2003, 11:46
Lol. I try to avoid steppe at all costs, but at certain times, those are the only games you'll get. Map packs are nice and well, but they need to be spread which isn't the case currently.
An instant download feature would help, a la Warcraft3, or perhaps declaring one pack the "official" MTW/VI map pack, which then would also be downloadable from .com and maybe even by use of the "check for updates" feature in the MP entry area.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-02-2003, 14:02
Yep fun battle at 5K CBR... Actualy I had bad expectation about 3v3 5K and thought 5K would be more appropriate at 1v1, but those games proved me wrong
Was good and enjoyable, I am looking forward the next 5k round. CBR count me in Alioven, I want my head back Congratulation for your good games
Louis the Simurgh,
i said many times 15k is too much but sadly CA did balance the game on that amount of florin
so if we change the florin the game become unbalanced....(lets say, more unbalanced)
i think, that many of the current problems was caused by the first patch, wich improved the cav too much. thatswhy we moved to higher florin to stand a chance vs the cav.
1 more point was, that before the first patch we played without elitecavs. now near all cavs are elite
yes u cant buy so much cav for 5k, but if u bring somewhere 3 knights (v0 ofcourse), this 3 units still spoil it away.
imo the cav and the bugs, makes it impossible to balance that game and bring some normal gameplay.
i think we cant balance it right now, the 15k games (mabye 12k) is the best what we can get with the current gamemecanics. We need major changes to bring this back to a point, where we can again start to work. we moved in a wrong direction and now there is just a way back. We can move forward as this just bring more problems and no general solutions.
all this intentions we got with MTW are nice and for the SP are great but with so many units, unitsizes, bonusses, upgrades, elite-nonelite units.....well its impossible to balance it and we cant change the important mecanics.
we had this point already, i always prefer more fun as historical correct. if both is possible, nice
koc
shingenmitch2
06-02-2003, 15:50
CB, Your theory breaks down because of morale.
The problem with 5k is morale of infantry versus the horses, not spears vs. swords.
The spears vs. swords imbalance scales evenly with the money (i.e. the imbalance of sword vs. spear at 15k is same, in relative terms as sw vs. sp at 5k) Because the morale for both scales evenly -- ie. I have v3 swords and v2/3 spears at 15k, at 5k I have v1/2 swords and v1/2 spears.
The imbalance (and where the real difference is felt) is with the Cav. In a 12-15k game you get Cavalry around morale 10 (v0 or v1) and infantry around morale 6-8 (v3), thus they will stand and fight versus a charging cav and not simply flee w/o contact (tho even this does happen occaisionally at this morale level)
In 5k the Cavalry is still up around morale 8-10 ( v0 still) while your infantry is down around 2-4. (v1) unless u can somehow afford elite footies.
What does this mean in game terms? You get infantry of lesser ability that run from horses who are fighting at the same level as they do in 12-15k battles.
This has to make the Cav better in lower florin games. Now if Cav is generally acknowledged as too strong to begin with, the 5k florin game cannot be good for promoting balanced armies.
Yes but there is just one thing you are missing Mitch: amount of cavalry. Playing at 15k you can get 16 heavy knights if you want. You are not going to get that in 5k.
Spears dont have problems with morale fighting cav even in 5k. Its when they are getting flooded by enemy knights they get problems.
A high era 5k game you can get about 4 chiv and 4 feudal knights plus 4 light cav. A 5k balanced army is more like 2 chiv and 2 feudals plus foot. In early era you dont have any crusader knights so feudals is the best you can get. That is a huge difference compared to 12-15k games.
But instead of talking about it, Im more interested in seeing it on the battlefield http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
CBR
The base difference in morale of units is from 0 to 8 (peasants might be below 0). Contrast that with the 6 to 10 useable morale range for fighting units. In general, units below 6 rout too easily and units above 10 fight too long. You can see the problem is one of trying to center an 8 point unit range over a 4 point functional range. At 15k, valor upgrades are being used to bring units within the 4 point functional morale range. Without upgrades, you might as well elimate most of the units when selecting your army.
All things are not equal when increasing valor. The reason is that the difference in cost of two upgraded units doesn't stay constant. A v0 cmaa costs 250 and a v0 order foot costs 400. The difference is 150. A v3 cmaa costs 1228 and a v3 order foot costs 1965. The difference is 737. The player with the swords picked up 737 - 150 = 587 florins to spend on something else.
The morale level has to be set before any unit balancing can be done. Changing the morale level changes the balance, so the game can only be balanced at one morale level. The +2 morale of VI constitutes a 10% increase to morale. You see the extreme reaction of some players to this 10% increase? See how sensitive the game's balance is to morale? Before the +2, it was said that cav was too strong and spears were too weak. After the +2, it's now being said that 100 man units (spears) are too strong.
The move from 10k to 15k after the v1.1 patch was due to the cost of valor going from 50% to 70%. That's a 40% increase which is close to the 50% florin increase that the extra 5k represents. Playing v1.0 at 10k and v1.1 at 15k is a means of setting the morale to about the same level. Playing VI v2.0 at 15k is partly an attempt to make spears viable because spears did not get an individual cost adjustment back to their v1.0 levels, and everyone who played v1.1 at 25k knows that cav became less effective at +2 morale. It looks like the runthrough bug is less effective at that level as well. So, I don't think playing v1.1 at 15k was too much. If anything, it was slightly too low.
It may be sad that CA balanced the game at 15k, but that's where people were playing, and that's the florin level from which the player feedback came. I don't know how we would generate feedback for a florin level that almost no one played. The all v2 and all v3 games that I hosted a few months ago was an attempt to generate feedback for v1.1 games that simulated 5k battles at +4 and +6 morale, but there was very little interest from players to investigate that and accumulate the necessary experience with it to make balance suggestions. I suggested to LJ making the "morale off" setting a +6 morale in the multiplayer balance thread for VI, since I never see anyone using "morale off", as a last ditch effort to get something we could play at 5k, and nobody here showed any interest. Now a bunch of people are bitching that they can't play the game at low forins. Well tough.
Magyar Khan
06-02-2003, 19:16
puzz somethimes u amaze me how u make your conclusions concerning what we write here and how its translated in a patch.
the fact that noone plays morale off doesnt imply that we cant use a better use of the morale off/on option by adding +6 morale.
people started playing at 10k an dlater 15k cuz it "felt" better than playing the current system on 5k. ofcourse another thing comes around as well that people like to buy stuff (upgrades) but the average feeling is teh reason why it changed.
without blunt guessing i can safely say that increasing florins that matches a "feel" will happen faster than lowering florins to match a "feel".
make the morale at 15k +4 and the most will lower the florin amount in a given time (after moaning in here).
but beyond your sharp one-sided diagoneses i am more concerned on how LJ manouvres between what he thinks is good for us, what he reads in here and how he correct things.
shingenmitch2
06-02-2003, 19:45
CB
Well I suppose the fact that a person can buy fewer cav. is all good for me, because I never have more than 5-6 anyway... so they just more effective http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
My thought would be to get 7-8 cav. or so, pump them... buy a bunch of missles and perhaps 3-4 swords just in case. But that just seems like a worse trend to me as I'd like to see armies a bit closer to their historical roots. My guess is that the inf. would be a side show in this and the game won or lost with the cav. primarily -- with the overall feel of the game being a much quicker rush-style - first hit and either u get it right or its over.
Right now in 12K High, on average, I typically see armies with about 5 cav, 4-6 ranged troops and the rest infantry. (weather spear or sword matter little). The foot clash usually determines the game, though flanking cav have a big impact. This seems more like what I would believe was intended for the game.
THAT SAID, I'm willing to give 5k a go and see if my intuition on this is correct http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ June 02 2003,20:45)]THAT SAID, I'm willing to give 5k a go and see if my intuition on this is correct http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
And that is really all I want Mitch: To get people to try it out with an open mind to see what the gamesplay is like and find any balance issues.
I will be the first to admit that 5k sucks if it does suck but I just want to see it as I simply dont buy most of the arguments I have heard so far.
I am getting so fed up watching pav crossbows/arbs hold even when getting hit by heavy knights, valour 4 archers that have super morale and damn good melee stats and a complete lack of spears because of upgrades on swords and spears really not needed to defend against cav unless you buy 12+ cav and use thin lines but that is of course cheesy tactics..
I really liked the few battles I had yesterday..they were different and the low morale didnt feel that bad really. But maybe that will be different when someone discovers the perfect super rush army that ruins balance..I dont know... all I know is that so far it looks nice and things have been like I imagined.
CBR
good one puzz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
CBR, ur right i agree with u and i would love to see many go back to the 5k games. 1 important point is, the game is very unbalanced with 5k. yes u cant buy many cav, but the cav can easy spoil the a game wit hthe current stats.
u can easy field 4 or 5 knights (v0) and this knights will do a very nice job. compared to the h2h units, this cavs are much more worth the money. we could easy raise the valour of a few units but we are not able to lower the moral of units.
i wised the standart unit would be v1, so we could at least lower 1 valour to get some money and balance some units back.
the current online balance is just about raising valour, if u could lower falour it woudl help. on the other hand, the cav is just to strong, still the cav has to much power especially in low florin games and in later stages of a game.
think about this solution.
back to normal moral
no armour or weapon upgrades
and jsut 1 or max 2 valourup or downgrades
a hard florinamount
and a system wich calculate every battle and change the prize automatical
yes, automatical .....i thought a long time about a system wich would solve the problem
everytime a unit get used the system make this unit more expensiv, just a small piece.....if units dont get used the become cheaper....this system would be very easy and it would automatical calculate the prizes of the units.
after a while the "uberunits" become more expensiv and some wont buy them so much....cheap units reach a prize, where they become used again.
after a while, the system would balance on his own.
just make sure u cant do many upgrades....thats all.
koc
I suggested making morale off be +6 since I had played v3 games. I didn't see any counter suggestions to make it +4 at the time. The debate could have been about +4 or +6 being the better setting. No one tested equal valor games except me. There was practically no interest. Nobody made any suggestions for using the morale on/off, ammo on/off and fatigue on/off options in a different way than they are currently used except me.
Skomatth
06-03-2003, 02:50
I did a quick little mod that gives all units 6 morale (what I feel is best for vi) so that you can play low florins but have decent morale. I didn't realize it at first but the +2 morale was so we could play at lower florin level and thus less imbalance. UPGRADES CAUSE IMBALANCE. I'll repeat myself by saying that one combat point results in a difference of about 10 or so men as opposed to when it isnt there. This means the base stats are more balanced to each other except in the case of morale. Since the florins for units are different when the units get upgraded it upsets the balance that was originally intended. See how spears get usually v2 arand swords v3? thats because of a little difference in florin cost. Then when they fight swords cut throught the spears a lot quicker than they were probably meant to, making spears less desireable to take. (Apart from the fact they dont work too well against cav anyway.)
15k is too high to be playing right now. The +2 morale should have been given just to spears and we could have continued to play at 15k. Unfortunately I didn't speak up in the balancing thread. I'm sure others realized it too unfortunately after it was too late. So I guess we'll have to live with units lasting too long in 15k or crappy spears in about 12k. 9k isnt bad if you use ur 15k army and take 1 valour off each unit. Thx yuuki for that calculation.
So I'll continue to be involved with mods (not just mine) and if I'm playing 2.0 it will be just for fun. I don't know how some people praise it so much don't you see when your flank takes so long to work that you might as well engaged frontally? Or all these people who praise their own creativenss. You cant force others to be like you unless it will help them win and you can do that by making the game balanced.
Skomatth,
Actually, LJ said the +2 morale was for people who wanted their units to stick around and fight a little longer. Some players were complaining that all you had to do to win was pile a bunch of units up against the enemy line and it would break or you could often crash a single cav into the line and the enemy would break because the morale bonuses were too big. Raising overall morale makes the morale bonuses effectively smaller.
It's interesting that it didn't result in the majority of players lowering the florins. That +2 morale makes the 15k game more playable when the units are very tired and get hit with -3 morale. With regard to flanking, there is a +5 combat bonus for attacking the flank of a unit, and a +7 combat bonus for attacking the rear of a unit. So, flanking is still important at 15k, but it can take a long time to win. It helps to flank with units that have a high attack value which allows them to win more quickly. What I've never seen discussed on this board is how long a player should have to bring a unit to the assistance of a friendly unit that's loosing. If units are fighting too long at 15k, then how long should they fight?
I would say that you hit it right on the money with the morale = 6. That would put units in VI right in the middle of the range which I think of as the useful morale range. However, you are going to meet with opposition from players who want less fighting and more routing. A morale 6 order foot will fight for a long time which is fine with me. Since spears are the defensive unit in this game, they should stand and fight for a long time, otherwise, they aren't a very good defensive unit.
Quote[/b] ]Puzz3D Posted on June 03 2003,00:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skomatth,
Actually, LJ said the +2 morale was for people who wanted their units to stick around and fight a little longer. Some players were complaining that all you had to do to win was pile a bunch of units up against the enemy line and it would break or you could often crash a single cav into the line and the enemy would break because the morale bonuses were too big. Raising overall morale makes the morale bonuses effectively smaller.
Quote[/b] ]Puzz3D Posted: Feb. 06 2003,21:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds good LongJohn. I think the +2 morale will allow 10k florin/player games where morale factors and kills are of about equal importance, and flanking is a very strong tactical element. Playing at this level will also remove the prospect of ranged units becoming the equal of non-ranged units in hth ability by way of their discounted upgrades. Thanks for compromising on this point.
sorry but if im not wrong it appears you have changed your stance yuuki? if you truely beleive the stats 2.0 should be played at 15k then i really dont understand why you played MTW at 15k http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
the morale on/off setting would of been a good solution, which i beleive CBR mentions first in the VI balancing thread, it is a shame that LJ could not implement this feature. I would reconmend playing skos mod as it is looking very nice, i will upload as soon as its 100% complete ..currently 90% .. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
IF there is a patch i say we all lobby for the incresed (+4 now??) morale option when the morale setting is turned off http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif can we plaese all stick together on this point we have nothing to loose http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Kocmoc: In the balanced armies I have used so far I have 4 v0 knights and I really expect a balanced army to have that amount of knights. 4 feduals in early, 2 feudals/2 chiv knights in high.
If I want I could replace 2 feudal knights and buy mounted sergeants instead and gain 500 florins...and 500 florins is a lot in 5k battles.. I can turn my spears into mostly italian/order foot.
We had a 4v4 yesterday with one guy complaining that rushing was too good in 5k games(after he made a blunder and opened up for enemy cav by moving his spears)
But with an army of: 1 feudal knight(v2), 5 highland clansmen(v1), 4 longbows, 4 roundshield spears(v1) and 2 pav crossbows he already had problems from the start. If you dont want much cav you need more spears and/or play more defensively and you really have to be think more about your upgrades. But its easier to blame it on the 5k and the resulting lower morale.
CBR
Baz,
CBR did post first about the +6 morale for the morale off option. He was one of the players who participated in the all v3 games, and he had made a stat prior to that where all units had +6 morale. I know he and I had discussions about raising morale and by how much, but, you're right, CBR did post first.
The suggested +6 morale for the MTW v1.1 morale off option was a compromise in my mind rather than an optimal value. It didn't remove really high morale games (15K + morale off), but gave you something that was non-cav dominated at 5k, and really low morale games were preserved if you played at 5K + morale on. We saw an improved gameplay in the MTW v1.1 all v3 battles (effective +6 morale) in the sense that cav didn't dominate. You couldn't buy a lot of cav because it was too expensive at v3, and you weren't likely to get any battlefield upgrades at v3. However, the gameplay is more sensitive to morale than I thought a month ago. The objection has been raised that units fight too long, and you can see that +6 is going to boost a knight up to a morale of 14 which is very high. Also, playing at all v3 effectively lowered the cost of ranged units relative to hth units which is an effect you don't get in a true 5k battle. We did play some all v2 games in MTW v1.1, but I can't remember what if any conclusions we came to about them. I think VI v2.0 at +2 morale (that's equivalent to MTW v1.1 at +4 morale) is worth further investigation. You can simulate this by playing all v1 games in VI v2.0 and make the florins 5k x 1.7 = 8.5k. It seems clear that neither setting is going to solve all the problems. A global adjustment to morale trades off one set of problems for another which can really only be addressed properly by individual unit adjustments.
I posted that the +2 morale would allow 10k games, but that was before I played it, and before I knew the spears didn't get any adjustment. It does take the edge of the ranged unit discounts, but overall 10k seems less balanced than 15k.
I haven't said VI should be played at 15k. I said somewhere between 10k and 15k, and that I was leaning toward the upper end of that range after I tried 10k, 12k, 12.5k, 13k and 15k. It plays fine for me at 12k, if I don't use spears. I played MTW v1.1 at 15k because that's where most were playing it. I tried playing MTW v1.1 at 12k, but didn't care for it. I was allied with CBR in a 4v4 VI v2.0 10k game where he took his 12 cav army and routed a player very quickly. This has nothing to do with battlefield upgrades. It was the same strategy that we used successfully in many MTW v1.1 15k games. That 12 cav army doesn't work as well in VI v2.0 15k because the infantry do not run away so easily. The majority feeling on this board was that cav was too strong in MTW v1.1 at 15k. My position was that you could defend against cav heavy armies with a balanced anti-cav inf army in v1.1 15k, but it wasn't easy. It seems to me that the majority want the cav toned down from MTW v1.1 15k levels, and playing VI v2.0 between 12k and 15k does that, but in some situations units can fight for a very long time.
Skomatth
06-03-2003, 16:10
Problem with +6 morale off is that cav are going to be much higher than everything else. I think that there should be no upgrades that effect melee stats and the host should be able to pick the morale level instead of the florin level. Like people who like 15k could host 8 base morale games (archers lower) and people 9k 6 morale. Making morale standard would make spears better and cav not so good.
Skomatth,
I was editing my post concerning that issue with the +6 when you posted, and we see the same problem. It's an issue, but, at the same time, I see cav and foot knights routing in VI v2.0 at 15k (effective +6 morale over MTW v1.1 5k). It's not easy to rout them, but it's easier than routing a pumped handgunner in MTW v1.1 15k.
solypsist
06-03-2003, 17:43
i play only small florin battles
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-03-2003, 18:12
I play with leftover form CBR army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif .
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Louis the Simurgh,
thnx for the reply Yuuki, im am sure that you did not change your mind without good reason and i do appreciate your concerns with the spears issue. Personally i prefer a game where the morale is a little more fragile.
all i can suggest is that we go for the morale off option, full-on, for inclusion in a patch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
as long we all are not act as a whole, we never will reach something. We should regroop, apart from some points we dont agree.....
We still agree about many ither points....if we dont try to find a way together, we just waste our time to speak about something.....but never change it.
many of us dont like the current gameplay.... we need a patch with important changes, if not we are lsot.
koc
i completely agree kocmoc, that is why i beleive we must try to come to compromises as much as we can and i am sure that alot of issues that we do agree on should at least take first priority, then we can work on from there ..what are your veiws regarding a poosible morale off seeting that moves morale to around +4 instead of the original +12, therfore giving us not too much morale but enough to play at a lower florin level.
My own opinion on requested changes that would have a chance of inclusion in a possible patch to VI, and that I think all here agree on are:
1) try to fix the cav sideswipe bug.
2) try to fix the MP game crashing when someone leaves the battle.
3) reduce fatigue rates to work better with the larger maps.
4) improve the performance of spears.
Add to this list as you wish, but I suggest keeping it general so we have a broader consensus, and so LJ has more freedom on how to address each issue. I don't say anything about changing the secondary settings of morale, fatigue and ammo because it seems there is great reluctance on CA's part to change those settings. I also don't say anything about the -ian because, if players can't agree not to use it in serious MP games and stick to that, I think we are in trouble. GilJay already posted that the fix would be complete removal, but SP players are going to want it left in.
Solution to -ian:
Making camera angle selectable in replays, where you see all units anyways. Satisfy both SP and MP people. That's where the -ian switch was intended in the first place: to take snapshots of the game.
[EDIT:] If not selectable in replays, then perhaps the switch only works when you replay...
Annie
Div Hunter
06-06-2003, 01:37
What are you on about Ann? -ian works all the time in all games no matter the settings.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-06-2003, 02:18
Quote[/b] (Div Hunter @ June 05 2003,19:37)]What are you on about Ann? -ian works all the time in all games no matter the settings.
Well, Div hunter, -ian is a kind of spolier for MP. The question raised by Yuuki is wheter to correct this spoiler or not, and his answer is no because there is no agreement on this.
LadyAn would like it to be corrected to work for replay only.
I agree with LadyAn.
Now, the question for you Div Hunter is would you like -ian to work for
1/ replay
2/ SP
3/ MP
4/ not work at all?
I think it might be worth a poll.
Louis the Simurgh,
Div Hunter
06-06-2003, 02:38
I think it should work for everything but MP becuse it is a spoiler, but can be very useful in replays ect ect and I like th wierd angles you can get with it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
i suggest to delete the +2 moral
the system is nice balanced at 15k, so better focus this amount of florin.
imo we could go back more than jsut -2 moral, make it -4
but this should be combinated with a bit weaker cav.
1 more important point is, if cav march fast, it shouldnt get chargebonus at all.
to the spearunit, we need a 60 men spearunit, for all factions, with a normal moral but a bit faster as other h2h units...
koc
1) try to fix the cav sideswipe bug.
2) try to fix the MP game crashing when someone leaves the battle.
3) reduce fatigue rates to work better with the larger maps.
4) improve the performance of spears.
all these suggestions do seem sensible, it is nothing too major but will help out a lot .. the only debatable point is the spears, we need to be carefull to not return to a time when spears beat swords.
the first 3 points are standard and should be dealt with as bugs that need fixing
baz, u can easy change spears without making them strong vs other h2h units
as we have now the special stats vs cav.....so there is no prob with this.
the unit shouldnt be to weak vs other h2h units, i suggest a good defence but weak attack. but very good attack and defence vs cav. the moral should be normal.
but 1 important point is, the spear should be faster as other h2h units, not much ...just a bit....to make this unit a bit weak, lower the armour to 1 or 2.
this will make the historicans a bit happy as the unit can walk faster without heavy armour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
its also important, that the unit is 60 men and avalaible for every faction. we have enougth 100 men spears, they are to slow, the turning speed is too slow as well. u cant flank with 100 men so nice.
a 60 men unit will be great.
just make sure this unit eat a cav and can hold vs h2h units.
like this 1 (8) 7(15)
koc
well i know it can be done koc but them adding a whole new unit is a little optimistic i feel http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
adjusting an existing unit is more viable, but i was wondering how we would go about strenghening the spear as you say we have some different options
increasing vs cav only
incresing vs all units
removing the push back from cav
what step should we take? why? and what will be the outcome? im just saying lets not rush this and discuss it fully
Zitat[/b] ]well i know it can be done koc but them adding a whole new unit is a little optimistic i feel
adjusting an existing unit is more viable, but i was wondering how we would go about strenghening the spear as you say we have some different options
increasing vs cav only
incresing vs all units
removing the push back from cav
what step should we take? why? and what will be the outcome? im just saying lets not rush this and discuss it fully
ok, i can just speak formyself.
first, im 1 of the guys who want a challanging gameplay, i dont care too much about historical correct, if its possible ....nice. but first come the fun.
so here we go....
i want a complet new unit, like alan cav....avalaible for near every faction
the unit has just 1 job to do, eat any cav
vs the other h2h units they shouldnt win, but hold for a nice time. thatswhy low attack and good defence
removing the pushback from the cav.
yes absolut this was a very bad "improvement"
a cav should havwe a counterunit, but if a cav can pull back, with very low losses, from the only counterunit. well, than its something wrong.
if u move ur cav wrong, u need to get punished
and if u come with such unit and attack the cav, this unit should be dead....
to change a current unit wont work. as we dont have a unit wich could be changed, just a few factions has units, wich we can change to such a spear.
to increase the points wich should changed, i would liek to add this elite units. and the routing....
lets speak about it. the current chaos on the field isnt controllable, i would liek to see a less-chaotic routing...
and i hope we dont see in rome elite and normal units. in SP its nice but in MP it cause a lot of problems...
koc
i personally play this game for gameplay, if historical correctness is including then thats brilliant but i dont see it as the main priority ..at the end of the day it could be 99% correct historically but if the game sux, it sux and no-one will play http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Baz,
That's an important point that swords beat spears. I think there is room to improve spears and still have them loose to swords. I was thinking that better spears would allow lowering the florins, possibly making 10k the most balanced place to play.
I don't have any objection to removing the +2 morale, and going back to the way it was in MTW v1.1. However, keep in mind that the game balance you see at 15k in VI v2.0 will change if the overall morale is changed. If the -2 morale was the only change made, the game at 15k would have roughly the balance we see now at 10k in VI v2.0. We haven't heard CBR's final conclusion about 5k games. Removing the +2 morale will affect those games, and there is no way to compensate by changing the florin level because the 5k florins is being used to limit the number of elite units such as cav knights that you can purchase. Raising florins to buy back the 2 morale defeats that purpose.
I can't go along with taking -4 off the overall morale. Kocmoc and I have a fundamentally different concept on the offensive/defensive balance in the game, and we are far apart on that. We can see that gameplay and balance is dramatically affected by small changes in morale. If you look at your pole results, most players voted for 15k or close to it in VI v2.0. Taking -4 morale off will make 15k play more like 5k with tons of cav, and there aren't enough florins in a 4v4 to buy back the 4 morale points, so you loose the gameplay we have right now in VI v2.0 at 15k which is what the majority of people are using.
spacecadet
06-06-2003, 12:45
Koc, Baz,
Is this Cav pushback thing anything to worry about? I can only say from my own play that whenever ive tried to pullback a cav from any half decent unit its engaged (excluding archers etc), then that cav is gonna be severely damaged / start routing.
About having a specialised cav eating cav unit - while it would be nice, im not really sure how great a change it would make from the current method of matching cavs vs cavs that everyone does.
Finally, the chaotic routing. If you'd asked me when MTW first came out, then i'd have said it was really irritating and should be put back to the way it was. Now, however i find that it adds a little spice to the game. It certainly takes skill to rout a good player effectively.
Space
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
puzz,
i wrote
Zitat[/b] ]imo we could go back more than jsut -2 moral, make it -4
but this should be combinated with a bit weaker cav.
go around and change jsut moral, i full agree with u....this wont help. but so many agree about the aspect, that the units stay too long now.
i wont discuss this all again, i just see many leave about this issue and we need changes.
back to the spearunit....
koc
well changing the moral has made it a bit complicated and its true we all have differences with that aspect, however, one thing we can agree that if we can potentially play at lower florins then it will be better .. so like we have all agreed improving spears will enable us to play at lower moral levels while still having effective spear units at that level .. therefore lets try concentrate on the spears as koc stated
the pushback allows the charge of the cav to damage the spear unit and get a good start in the melee, try charging a spear in 1.0 and then in 1.1 you will notice the difference .. personally whether this is a good thing or not i dont beleive we will get it changed so i think wqe just need to improve the stats of spears slightly but that is easier said than done
How would you suggest improving the spears units of the game?
i am not talking about pushbacks or changing size im just talking either slight stat adjustment (vs cav/vs all) or slight price reduction (perhaps somewhere inbetween 1.0 and 1.1)
please guys lets try this simple and keep within the above criteria other changes are good suggestions but i feel they would be just too radical to implement.
Making the cav a bit weaker doesn't make -4 morale ok unless you like VI v2.0 5k games. At 5k the morale is approximately 4 points below 15k and you cannot afford many cav knights. So, basically you can play that game right now in VI v2.0. My objection is that you remove the possibility to play the game the way the majority are currently playing it in 3v3 and 4v4. You would need 43k for each player to buy back the 4 morale. You also can't simulate 15k by playing 5k + morale off because +12 (morale off) -4 (playing at 5k) -4 (removal of 4 morale) is a net +4 morale.
i urge for koc to mail his comments to me garrybibson@hotmail.com
Baz,
Kocmoc is the one suggesting changing morale. Do you see any suggestion to change morale in my original list? I don't see any problem putting it back -2 to the original value, but recognize that lowering morale has the effect of driving up the florins used in games, and, if there is a playable game right now at 5k in VI v2.0, lowering morale will remove that gameplay. This is CBR's thread about the viability of 5k games in VI v2.0.
There are lots of ways to improve spears, but cost reduction is the method that has a minimal impact on single player. Improving the anti-cav factor is the way to do it if you don't want to change how the spear performs vs non-cav units. I think the anti-cav method is attractive for MP because it enhances the rock, paper, scissors aspect of the gameplay. I don't think this would adversely affect SP because the ai is quite good about picking favorable unit matchups.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-06-2003, 17:09
Quote[/b] (Kocmoc @ June 06 2003,05:39)]baz, u can easy change spears without making them strong vs other h2h units
as we have now the special stats vs cav.....so there is no prob with this.
the unit shouldnt be to weak vs other h2h units, i suggest a good defence but weak attack. but very good attack and defence vs cav. the moral should be normal.
but 1 important point is, the spear should be faster as other h2h units, not much ...just a bit....to make this unit a bit weak, lower the armour to 1 or 2.
this will make the historicans a bit happy as the unit can walk faster without heavy armour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
its also important, that the unit is 60 men and avalaible for every faction. we have enougth 100 men spears, they are to slow, the turning speed is too slow as well. u cant flank with 100 men so nice.
a 60 men unit will be great.
just make sure this unit eat a cav and can hold vs h2h units.
like this 1 (8) 7(15)
koc
Hum...
Why do I keep thinking 'polearm' here?
JHI, billmen, swiss halb and the like are good enough cav killer IMO. +3/+1 and AP seems to do the job pretty fast.
Would a normal speed halberd with less armor and base honor 2 (instead of 0) be good enough? How would you cost that?
Matching up halberd vs CMAA is a sure way to lose. I think nearly all faction have halb (not muslim).
Morale wise... well depend on what kind of game you want to play... I am fine as it is and if I want to change, I just adjust fl level.
I am nearly ok with Yuuki list; my .02 USD on that.
To be more precise;
1/ fix cav swip bug
2/ fix MP crashing
3/ fix lobby separation
4/ improve slightly fatigue recovery rate so that endgame are not decided by exhausted vs very tired
5/ improve slightly spear (+2/+4 anti cav?); +2 morale of VI shall be spear only.
The anticav inf unit already exhist; it's not a spear unit, it's a polearm one.
Louis the Simurgh.
edit; and
6/ fix -ian
Orda Khan
06-06-2003, 17:27
Seemed like a bit of a rush fest to me.....
....Orda
Skomatth
06-06-2003, 17:31
Just give 100 man spears +2 morale. It would make them more viable at whatever florin level you like playing. IN 15k all units seems to stick around a little too long except 100 spears. So if you like that long sticking around, then spears with +2 would work for you. If you like lower florin levels it would make spears actually work for you. 100 man spears have in most cases about 2 less morale than all other units after being upgraded in any florin level.
edit: Except for the swipe thing, 60 man anti-cav works fine atm so I don't see a need to give them +2 morale. If Koc wants every faction to have them, well thats not gonna happen just cause of historical accuracy that the devs like and same with cav eating cav. However you have my mod koc which has both those things in it.
Yuuki,
theres no need to get defensive with me all i said in my last post was lets concentrate on making spears a bit more worthwhile at lower florins .. from this assumption i thought we would be coming to a compromise where koc would get his less rigid moral and you would get effective spears, if you think thats a bad idea then let me know http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
are we going for improving spears or not?
Skomatth
06-08-2003, 00:09
I'm saying improve order foot by making their base morale 4, so that whatever florin lvl you like their morale will be 2 higher than now, b.c. they rout too easily compared to other units. I dont know any other spears base morale so I can't suggest anything for them. If anyone would like to be an unofficial beta team, I could mod the improvements as we go and we could see how they work.
Hm
Well its difficult for me to come with a final conclusion about 5k games. That requires playing a lot more games. But lets look at it.
Morale:
I dont feel it is so bad really. When people come with upgraded shock units yes my front spears have problems and it can turn into a big rout for my front units. But these armies with upgraded shock units normally lack good cavalry and will still lose even if it looks good for them in the start of a rush.
If the battle has lasted a long time fatigued units might have problems but I think that can be caused by people not having optimal armies (read: loads of shock only) and simply not used to the lower morale.
Cavalry:
Cavalry is an important part of your army. You can have a nice army without any cavalry or at least no heavy cavalry but you need spears and that is something I have seen people forget lots of times.
You cant expect to just buy loads of shock cav and rush the enemy to death. A balanced army (something we never see in 12k+ games anymore) will be a nice army to counter that and you cant buy much heavy cavalry anyway with 5k.
Army selection:
A 5k army is very much different than higher florin armies. I have mostly used a balanced army and I think its a nice army. As heavy cavalry kills shock units rather quickly you really need spears and as upgrading shock units is not an option, without severely weakening some other part of the army, they are an important part of your army and they dont really feel even with less morale compared to higher florins.
Although I have not tried all types of units.. but I would say that at 5k we actually see more units being interesting to buy: Javelins are not that bad for example.
So what is there to say about 5k then?
I would say its very much playable but people need to think differently when selecting units and not just try to copy their standard high florin armies. And the lower morale means you have to be more careful with certain units.. swords versus cav for example.
Yes you cant buy loads of super units as you are used to but then there are other units to buy.
Yes the gameplay is different but right now I wouldnt say its bad. We could use a morale increase I guess...+2 or +4 but I think +4 is actually too much.
But the biggest problem with 5k is the differences. People are used to buying certain units types and gameplay. The only way we are going to see more 5k games would take a huge attitude change that I dont think is possible. Maybe if someone hosted a 5k tournament we would see more people try it.
The 5k game has a much better feel when it comes to combined arms instead of the very IMO one dimensional gameplay at higher florins. Its a shame really. Yes 5k is not perfect as we always could use some cost changes to improve balance but I think its still a nice game at that florin level.
CBR
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
08-26-2003, 15:30
Bump of a worthy thread....
At 15k, spears have nearly completly disappeared (beside a few diehard..). 8 / 10 pumped up swords seems to be the norm.
It is getting somehow annoying.
At 5K, swords can't handle cav anymore. Then the question is can spears? Or as an alternative, can units like CFK, swiss halb, JHI (although the cost of those would prevent a real widespread use)? Or a Muwahid, Almughavar (those two are promising; got adequate morale) or a viking era Dismounted Nobles....? Case not closed yet, more game needed.
The one sure thing is that 8+ swords armies got a real tough time in 5k http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Granted, it's getting selective on the spears used, and many won't be used because of their low morale. But guess what, at 15k, I would bet that even less unit are used; after all, all one needs is MS, FMAA, CMAA, and that's it.
All spears won't get usable before some got a too low morale to resist a cav heavy environment, and very little upgrade to boost them, but in today 15k game none are getting used; all in all, we may have more variety in 5k...
Still...
A few 5k specific problems (beside spears / overpowered cav question http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) ;
- fatigue; well some complains that fatigue is too high... At 5k it just get much much worse. Way worse.
- more routing/rallying; that can make for fun game but also gets somehow tiring.
Louis,
LOL
Louis:
Earlier today I had decided to bump this thread in an attempt to continue the discussion, as we apparently have more people interested in 5k.
You have proven to be a faster clicker than me..yes not easy for me to admit that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Ok I'll just have a nap and then its time for some 5k spamming http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
CBR
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
08-26-2003, 19:41
Well, toote pinned the .com topic, which might be worse curse for a thread ever... Who wants to got complety OT in a pinned topic... Worse than a death sentence that...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
So here we go back on this good ol' thread
Louis,
I dont have any problems using even the basic spearmen. They are cheap and will block cav from wiping out my missile. Yes they might even lose against some super cav but I really dont care..they cost 150 and I dont expect them to hold that long anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The routing/rally thing..
I dont know..I must admit that I like being able to rally my army even if most or all has routed. Its easier to rout in 5k and we see more chain routs. If you want to stop an enemy from rallying you need to pursue and that now takes more effort/skill than before heh
Although we still need lots of playing to do I must say that I still find diversity a lot better in 5k. And I dont see cav being overpowered at all. Yesterday I tried my 8 cav/6 missile/2 spears army in a 3v3 and I wouldnt say it was that powerful but I will try it some more.
CBR
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
08-27-2003, 16:50
Problem might be more 6 miss than 8 cav.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Next thing, you will take 8 cav and 8 peasant, lose, and blame it on the cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Other potential issues (sorry to state the obvious...) heard yesterday;
- doubling is fatal, I mean more fatal; teamwork is much harder as there is less time to react before one army get routed. Might end up with lot of double rushing being the most efficient strategy... One might argue that one shall not let allies get doubled in the first place, and help them fast... Map choice might help.
- some sheepherding complain; too easy to rout one army on its allies... Making mass route even easier.
Louis,
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Aug. 27 2003,17:50)]Problem might be more 6 miss than 8 cav.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
No I need the missile. I cant get much super cav for the 6 xbows anyway and then the army is a total rush army and I dont plan to charge right into a wall of spears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] ]- doubling is fatal...
Yes Yuuki said that normal maps was perhaps best which was what I was thinking too. Teamwork is more important now and less skilled players get killed quicker and right now most of us are less skilled heh.
Chain routs are easier..well what is there to say. I like good teamwork, I like to see a good plan give results (and less units fighting to the death) "better" than what Im used to in 15k. Maybe playing at v1 minimum for all units will make things different. But Im not finished with 5k at all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
CBR
t1master
08-27-2003, 18:35
i think it's worth continuing. it gave the two games i played last nite a fresher feeling than i've had since vi was raised as the standard. 15k is getting stuck in a rut, the same tired strategies units etc. swords should get run over by even light cav, imo, not rout cav.
and i run at the drop of a hat anyway, so lets go
anyhoo, i'll be happy to play 5k with yas, it eliminates all the complicated unit/upgrades... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
shingenmitch2
08-27-2003, 20:50
If 15K the rout takes a bit too long, in 5k it happens too quick. Thus it is harder to counter the rush. Chain routing is too rampant as well.
I've not had much success using 15k tactics and I might have to switch back to old STW tactics of the fast rush quick corner turn -- force opponent to turn units -- where upon the lines get gittery now --and get the 1st break... but even in STW there were guns to keep u honest. Increased morale effects means the first-break becomes all important... you could have poor tactics everywhere, but if you get the first rout ur opponent is done.
I'd like to see what happens in 10k games -- perhaps that is low enough to eliminate the 8 sword rush, but high enough morale to allow more unit independence and having a second line for reinforcements more viable
We had a few 9k and 10k battles shortly after VI came out. People complained about overpowered cav. IIRC you were one of them heh.
But it does kill unit diversity as you have money enough for the best units only. That already happens at around 7k.
At 7-8k cav gets too powerful. You can buy 8 or more and still be able to get standard foot/missile while the more balanced army doesnt have high enough morale to deal with the big number of cav. And spears starts to have problems as all the extra money is put into upgrades for swords.
CBR
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Aug. 26 2003,21:41)]Well, toote pinned the .com topic, which might be worse curse for a thread ever... Who wants to got complety OT in a pinned topic... Worse than a death sentence that...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
So here we go back on this good ol' thread
Louis,
yea i notice everyone stop posting on that thread once i pinned it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
how come?
blah.. 3 weeks without new post I will take it down, as usual.
but hmmm....
tootee,
because the originator took exception to his thread being taken off topic.
Mitch,
I think the 5k is ok, but you have to know the morale penalties and the morale of each unit. If you know that, you can get your units to fight for up to a minute or so. You really have to chase routed units all the way off the field or they will come back. It's not a good sight to see a 97 man enemy spear unit that you routed coming back. The double team and the quick move to the flank work well. There is a very small time window to respond to these kinds of moves. Position and chain routing are big factors in 5k. The rps seems to work, but any unit will quickly rout when flanked, although, morale 8 units that are flanked can probably fight to 1/2 strength before routing. You still have to pay attention to matchups because a bad one can easily chain rout you. That's why, if you have one cav knight vs three swords, the swords probably loose because the cav will hit the weakest sword and chain rout all three. If you split the swords up, the cav will just kill them one by one. The same can happen with polearms if the cav charge routs one of them, whereas a single spear can stand up to a cav knight because it cancels the charge as long as it's facing the cav. Conserving fatigue is very important because "vert tired" means -3 morale. Because you really have to chase in the 5k game, you can't conserve fatigue in the endgame, and you end up with many exhaused units. That's why the large maps don't seem well suited for 5k. I have seen a 5k game where the opposing units could not approach each other without routing. We had to end that game before a winner was determined.
shingenmitch2
08-28-2003, 14:36
Hi Yuuk,
I see what u mean about the 5k tactics. I'm just not sure I enjoy the "feel" of the quick break games. I think there is nothing more frustrating to me than having units flee that are almost completely full -- the 95-man spear unit running from combat -- as the game norm. This can happen in the 15k games too, but just not as often or as easily as the 5k.
My thought about flanking and its affect "in reality on real troops" is that it breaks a unit for a number of reasons: troops don't like to be flanked, so yes they are more skittish, but just as important is they are losing men more rapidly because they are presumably double teamed (hit from front and side) and/or the troops were unable to adequately counter the attack. I believe a rout in real life was due to as much to the rapid loss of own men and the "fight not going well" as it was the mere fact the troops were suprised.
Col. Duprey has said suprise can be expressed as a 2x, 4x, or even 6x combat multiplier -- so it is extremely important, but again, he expresses it as a combat multiplier -- thus increasing lethality of the troops. M:TW expresses it as a morale hit and combat modifier, which is a valid method, but the question becomes how much should attributed to "pure morale" of troops "scared" by the flank maneuver and how much should be the morale hit that also applies from actual rapid troop loss-- which presumably occurs because the flanking troops get combat bonuses.
With 5k it seems that u can get routs where it is more pure "morale overload" and troop casualties are actually secondary. Flank a unit properly and u can "will" it to flee. I can deal with that in some circumstances (say particularly peasants flanked by cav), but as typical game-play for most situations it bugs me.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
08-28-2003, 15:28
Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Aug. 28 2003,09:04)]Conserving fatigue is very important because "vert tired" means -3 morale. Because you really have to chase in the 5k game, you can't conserve fatigue in the endgame, and you end up with many exhaused units. That's why the large maps don't seem well suited for 5k. I have seen a 5k game where the opposing units could not approach each other without routing. We had to end that game before a winner was determined.
A major issue IMO... One got to choose tiring itself chasing router, then being pretty sure to have large issue with fatigue later, or to let routers rally, which is not the greatest option either. There is a big incentive now to have 1 'safe' unit, to keep it far far away from main line, thus being able to rally and avoiding mass 'game over' rout.
Louis,
Did any of you tried to look at 6K or 5.5K games?
Mitch
If we look at history you will find that most losses comes after the actual combat. Units dont need many losses before they will rout.
The "fight not going well" can mean a lot things: You see units in your line suddenly start running, your unit banner drops, enemy units suddenly in the flank where they were not supposed to be, rumour that the general died, a new formation suddenly appearing on the hill far away on your right flank (yes they might even be your own troops but you dont know thát so better run now to be sure) or just plain and simply that it doesnt look very good a few ranks in front of you as you see enemy troops chopping through all your mates.
I would say that in 5k MTW units in general fight longer than they did historically.
Of course there is always the question of the what one want in a game. I dont mind units to be nearly intact and still run. Im more concerned about why they run or if they run too quick.
In the 5k games so far I have seen my spears to work ok if standing in a proper line. But against a big enemy rush I will have major problems if Im still maneuvering with them or there are holes in the line.
About Duprey and surprise multipliers. Lets say you are "surprised" and half your units are facing the wrong direction and generally scattered over a larger area than if deployed. And then the big enemy rush comes. Most of your units gets doubled and flanked and quickly routs. We repeat the situation like this a hundred times and every time we look at the losses and compare to a standard battle.
The result would be a general combat multiplier that gives an effect like an increase in the attackers "lethality". Not because of attack modifiers but because you as a defender are not prepared, and therefore loses a lot quicker.
Now there might be some morale modifiers that would be nice if changed. The "just send big mob at enemy line and they will run" could be reduced. IIRC you do get some big modifiers for being outnumbered. And I still dont like losing bars just by standing( one after 20 min and another one aftr 40 minutes IIRC)
CBR
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
08-28-2003, 16:32
A possibly overlooked morale modifier...
Infantry charged, by cavalry, in the flank or when in loose/disordered: -6
Louis,
shingenmitch2
08-28-2003, 20:47
CB
Points well taken, in some ways we're saying very similar things.
I've been getting killed for many different reasons in 5k not the least of which is simple bad unit picks, so I know I'm doing a number of things wrong... but...
The thing I'm not happy about tho, is that on two occasions I've been hit by 1.5 armies and each time the far left guy can get an angle on my flank. Now I don't necessarily expect to win outnumbered, but when the main force is coming at my front and I try to simply peal off 2-3 units to the left to hold the flank, those guys immediately start flagging -- so what, I can't maneuver during an attack because it presents the side of units or disorders them a bit? Well then I'm cooked even before the armies touch.
Yes I see. Well Im saving most of my battles and will look at the interesting ones. Just to see if the big routs is just good attacking/bad defending or perhaps something with morale. If you have any replays Im always interested http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Are you talking about front units or second line that you move?
CBR
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Aug. 28 2003,17:32)]A possibly overlooked morale modifier...
Infantry charged, by cavalry, in the flank or when in loose/disordered: -6
I have not overlooked it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
IMO its working ok...at least so far. Im still worried about an eventual removal of the swipe bug (no Im not saying it shouldnt be removed) and what the effect is.
Yes I know Im the Lancer guy that loves cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif but I do find myself using armies with only 2 cav (and they feel very good) and when using 6 cav or more I better now have too many super cav as my foot, and the whole army in general, feels very weak.
I dont mind playing with my main foot armies..I really like them. But I dont think it will take that many changes before they will be the dominant armies.. and sometimes they already feel like the dominant army.
CBR
Mitch,
Remember the discussion about defensive formations such as the J hook, and how you can't have it in this game because the units are rectangular blocks and the blocks expose their flanks when you arrange them in a sharp curve? Note also that a unit becomes momentarily disordered if you move it in any direction other than straight ahead. Now couple those two things with the positional game (relatively low morale on many units) that 5k represents. See why defense is less viable, and the game becomes more geared to offensive moves?
In the 4v4 on the flat map where our left ally folded and you were pressured from front and left by two armies, I was later advised that CBR and I had to attack on the right to have any chance of winning that game. Well that's right because in trying to make defensive moves our three remaining armies simply ran away without fighting. You can have 5k games with a lot of sparing, but those are due to the playing style of the particular players involved and not because the game system is imposing that syle of play as the best one to follow. At 5k, offensive, fast moving actions are preferable and you'll see defensive minded players having a lot of trouble in these games. Forget about using reserves to counter a threat or bringing a unit from one flank to the other after the battleline engages because it's all over before the reserves even get up to the line, and, if you have an opportunity to flank the battleline, get your flankers out on the wings and forward before the main line meets.
BTW, sorry for saying you charged in that game. I looked at the replay, and it was our left ally who sent his remaining inf at the army in front of you. I mistook those units to be yours.
shingenmitch2
08-30-2003, 17:41
Hi Yuuk,
Well I did a lot of ugly things that game, and I'm not sure my army was a good H2H army anyway. But I did notice apart from all those things that rear reinforcement or lateral shifts just destroy a unit's morale or are flat-out too late to make a difference and I think that hurts the game. Guys like Koc love the 5k game exactly because it is all about attack. I'm of the belief that defense/counter-attack needs to be an equally viable option.
BTW late last nite I had a good 15k game and was charged by a large (8/9)sword army backed by LBs and a few cav. Now, of my inf -- all were swords, but I only had 6, and 1 LB swing unit, 6 cav and 3 xbows and I crushed the sword army charge. I think that while everyone will be taking swords for their infantry, cavalry and xbows are still viable in the 15k game. It sux that there won't be a ton of variation in armies, but I liken that to chess... so maybe 15k is still playable.
I also wonder what 10k would do. It might be a better midpoint between 15 & 5k games.
Mitch,
I'm not saying the gameplay at 5k is worse than 15k. It's just different, but different in a way that hard to grasp unless you have a good understanding of all the morale penalty stuff. Although most of the morale penalties are known to those who dig for the info, there are still some that haven't been quantified. Certainly the rock, paper, scissors works better at 5k, and mobility and flanking is more important. However, the 5k game in VI is something like playing a SP campaign with zero star generals with a virture that gives +2 morale except that your units don't loose this intrinsic +2 morale if he dies. I've got to move away from a double team situation at 5k in MP, and I have to do it as soon as I notice it. Since units turn their backs on the enemy when they pull back and get a morale penalty if enemy units are nearby, I have to make any backward moves before the enemy gets near me. Likewise, if I see a double team on an ally, I have to arrive in support pretty much at the moment of contact or I might as well forget about going to help.
I had two 5k 3v3 games last night which demonstrates the difficulties a team taking predominantly infantry armies faces. My team took mostly inf with 8 or 9 cav distributed over the 3 armies. In both games I was center, and the enemy had balanced armies on the wings and an all cav army in the center. The threat of that center army to double team one wing forced my team to close ranks. In both games, that double team threat was directed at my left side ally, although, the center cav army didn't have to tip its hand by moving since it has high mobility. My left ally closed ranks with me in both games to avoid the double, but that opened his left flank. In the first game, my left ally moved very close to me and dropped his left flank back so he faced outward, and the enemy cav then enveloped almost all the way around to our rear on that side. We had trees behind us which gave rear protection from cav, and I didn't have to commit any units to face backwards, although I did send an xbow back there to keep the enemy cav at a distance. When the attack came it did rout a lot of my left ally, but I was close enough to get support there just in time to hold and turn back the attack. I'll have to look at the replay to understand why my army didn't chain rout. In the second game, my left ally shifted toward center (me), but maintained a front facing parallel to me and had a wider set than my ally in the first game. The enemy wing advanced and hit my ally's left while the center sent cav. I sent two cav to help which got there in time, but the one inf I sent didn't arrive in time despite it being my left most inf unit and my sending it within a second of when I saw the center cav make their move. In anycase, I was only able to help the right most unit of my ally with the cav I sent. If I shift left before the attack because my ally didn't come close enough to me, the enemy center can switch to attack our right side ally. This is how greater enemy mobility forces inf based allies to contract. I'm not saying it's bad or good. It's just my observation. When I looked at the replay of this battle, I saw instance after instance of inf support arriving too late throught the battle.
I think all these factors combine to make the maps play as though they are larger at 5k than what they seem at 15k for the inf player. The reduced fatigue rate that cav got in mtw v1.1 helps the cav take advantage of enveloping maneuvers made possible by the inf armies closing ranks. It appears to me that inf takes on more of a defensive character in 5k battles due to it's lack of mobility and need to cover its flanks at all times when facing cav on an open field which is probably historically correct. It's pretty suicidal to venture out in an open space with one or two inf units when there is cav around. I don't know what the effect of adopting single line inf and trying to comb the field would be since I don't play like that. Alternatively, the cav would be disadvantaged if it had to fight in trees or assault a strong point held by inf with protected flanks. Another thought is that anything giving morale penalties such as taking casualties from ranged fire or fighting uphill will be more of a factor at 5k.
There is one more disadvantage an infantry commander suffers if he gets enveloped. That is he can't keep all the enemy units in the field of view unless he has unlimited camera. He has to keep rotating the camera back and forth so not to miss an approching enemy unit. If you are trying to protect ranged units in different views from cav attacks, it's tricky and easy to miss an attack. The commander of the enveloping army doesn't have this problem. He can see the whole enemy army and probably most of his own units in a single view.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
09-03-2003, 14:09
Other consequence of playing 5k, it seems to make missile war somehow more interesting.
1/ No armor upgrade means missile units loses / win faster and ends up with possibly more ammo and less tired... Somehow mitigated by the current widespread use of loose missile... But potentially the winner of a missile war will be able to make more damage on ennemy line than in 15k
2/ possibly more vulnerable to cav skirmish; no armor upgrade = reduced defense; pav on H/H may be less stucky now.
3/ Bows got more of a chance; a3 pav xbow were way too armored for them. Now v0a0w0 pav xbow are somehow more doable. Still not recommanded though.
I am rather happy with the impact of 5k on missile war, too bad we don't see more of them at those fl level due to hummm a larger incentive to quickly double an opponent http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Louis,
Yes Louis missles do seem play better in 5k as long as everyone is taking some, and the lack of mobility and higher cost of the pavise units seems to be more of a drawback and an incentive to use the non-pavise type. However, missle units are relatively more expensive in 5k than they are in 15k games with their substantial base cost and little money available for discounted upgrades which, as TekiSeki said, opens the possibility of effective no missle armies in 5k. For instance, an fmaa at 175 florins is less expensive than a basic archer or xbow. Maybe fatigue, losses while advancing across no man's land and the morale penalty from taking casualties from missles balances out the higher combat power of the no missle army in 5k. I don't think we know the answer to that yet, but I think we are about to find out in the next round of 5k games.
ElmarkOFear
09-03-2003, 23:09
..
Pitt_Slayer
09-04-2003, 08:26
play some 5k battles the other week http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif brillant first time in ages "i was excited at playing mp" it was great and i'm looking forward to playing more soooooooooon http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ Sep. 04 2003,00:09)]At least for trouble shooting, the 5k game makes it easier to notice problems which may not be readily apparent at the higher level games (due to upgrading).
Hm I dont agree on that.
Spears work fine in 5k but not in 15k. Upgrading in 15k gives some hybrids more power while in 5k some might be too weak (especially javelins) Arqs are nice in 5k but the much higher morale in 15k means their primary role has to be melee or not buy them at all.
Each florin/morale level will have its own problems and sometimes you cant solve one problem without causing problems at another level. Some problems are simply not noticed in 15k because they are not problems at that level.
CBR
ElmarkOFear
09-06-2003, 03:50
..
And what is wrong with spears then?
Even in 5k arqs are hardly a unit to count on (but at least they only cost 175) Yes I guess they work when their targets are very tired/exhausted but having to save them for that last phase does limit their use considerable.
Just take Lancers. The standard 15k game makes Lancers too good as the player doesnt have to make any compromises when buying them (maybe one or two less upgrades but thats it) In a game with less florins he suddenly has to buy not as good foot if he wants them. And that is the same with most "super" units (the best of one unit type) the Lancer is just the most obvious.
Lots of units are being used in low florin games but not in high florin games. That is simply not something that can ever be spotted in low florin games. And it cannot be corrected unless you want to give each unit some kind of special ability that everyone wants.
Yes I guess there could be some basic stuff that could be spotted but when I play a 5k and then a 15k game I see 2 different games which has their own problems.
CBR
Quote[/b] (CBR @ Sep. 06 2003,06:54)]Even in 5k arqs are hardly a unit to count on (but at least they only cost 175) Yes I guess they work when their targets are very tired/exhausted but having to save them for that last phase does limit their use considerable.
try them at v3 for 5k games, and v4w2 for 15k games. they are fine h2h units when need to, hold long enof... and their blast when enemy is tired simply extend their flexibility.. one of the most creative units to play around with.
Quote[/b] (tootee @ Sep. 06 2003,06:09)]try them at v3 for 5k games, and v4w2 for 15k games. they are fine h2h units when need to, hold long enof... and their blast when enemy is tired simply extend their flexibility.. one of the most creative units to play around with.
Lol yes you are right.
Heavily upgraded because of the missile cost reduction when upgrading. Same system that gives some missile units armour 3 and has bored some people for months now. Upgrading that turns missile/hybrids into very capable h2h units. In 1.1 it turned Handgunners into very overpowered units (now they cost more so I guess they are not, I havent tried them yet)
The cost reduction system that isnt felt much in 5k (although there are still a few problems) but just gets worse and worse the higher you get in florins. And just to make it clear: I hate this missile cost reduction. Would be much better if we just could get cheaper missile units.
Yes you could call it creative and some likes to play with upgrading and hell yes I can understand that. But as you see in other threads here and on .com you see other people also wanting to reduce upgrading because its the main reason for balance problems.
If we were ever going to play a World War 2: Total war I am of the boring kind that expects German King Tigers to be the best (although slow) tank...I couldnt care less about Sherman tanks with 3 armour and 4 weapon upgrades that suddenly turns in Tiger killers.
If I in Napoleon: Total War buys some veteran French Old Guard Infantry units I dont want them wiped out by some Preussian Landsturm unit just because it has a load of valour flags on it.
Just as I in Medieval: Total War hate to see units that are supposed to be weak in melee suddenly being able to stop cav charges.
But thats just OT ranting. Yes arqs are fine if given lots of upgrades..not to improve their original role as a missile unit but melee.
CBR
ElmarkOFear
09-07-2003, 05:42
..
What?? Do CBR understand Elmo right...Elmo calls CBR boring AND a cav lover?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Ok looks like you asked for a long rant Elmo ;-)
CBR said:
"And what is wrong with spears then?"
And I cant get an answer there? We are getting a patch soon and if we ever are going to get some balance changes, we sure need to come with something that looks like facts. Statements like "Lancers are overpowered at 5k even worse than at 15k" or "Spears do NOT work fine at 5k" is not good enough to convince CA to make changes... I think.
But maybe its too late and we cant get any changes in the patch...I still like facts..only way to discuss things.
I see spears being used (and used a lot) in 5k and I like to use them..maybe going back to 1.0 costs would be nice but I dont consider spears to be crap. But I would love more details Elmo.
Lancers..no I havent played Late very much but I have tried Lancers twice. I didnt hear anyone yell at me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif No doubt that they are very good but Elmo they cost 850 florins I also have played with them in the Valour 3 only games we played several months ago (22-25k so army setup is same as 5k just with higher morale) But dont listen to me Elmo...Im biased http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I was starting to experiment with all cav armies (about 8 units all/mostly knights) as the more standard 12 cav 4 missile didnt feel as powerful as Im used to in 15k. But havent played enough to come with any conclusions. My first try with a 9 horse army was...well lets just say I didnt have to save a replay.
Im interested in facts and examples..am I asking for too much?
Elmo said:
Quote[/b] ]"He is looking for reality and that will make a very boring game indeed. Most battles, from ancient times to today, were won by having the most men, machines, or better technology and not because of great battlefield tactics."
Yes lots of battles were won because of that. Just play SP and its the same thing: You always try to make sure the battle is won before it starts by having superior numbers etc etc.
But come on Elmo..we dont play MP like that do we? We have equal amount of florins and the better a unit gets the more expensive it becomes. We want fair battles where both sides have an equal chance of winning. We can also find battles like that in history.. I see no problems in wanting realism and still having balanced armies/battles.
Quote[/b] ]"The Romans won because they had a huge army, better weapons, and better organization than their enemy, so for RTW, nobody should be able to beat the Roman army, because that did not happen historically. Well, if reality is what you want, this is the way it should be, making this a very boring MP experience"
The Romans lost lots of battles and eventually the Roman empire was destroyed. We are not fighting a war in MP. We are figting hypothetical battles.
Take a look at the units in MTW. Better quality costs money. 5k is perfect example of quality versus quantity: if you want the best units only they will be 60 and 40 men units and you might not even be able to buy 16 units. If you want a balanced battle between a Roman army and the typical stereotype barbarian army you would most likely see more barbarians than romans, either because Romans cant buy max (20) units or because the barbarians in general have larger units.
Quote[/b] ]"Lots of units are being used in low florin games but not in high florin games." Yes, thank you for supporting my statement that low florin games are better for troubleshooting (even though I know you didn't mean too) LOL
Erm.. but no matter how many 5k battles you play and fix errors at that level, the problems are different in 15k. That was what I meant: In 5k you can use more units but its not the same in 15k so there must be some fundamentally different, therefore 5k is not some perfect level where you can fix all errors and 10k or 15k or whatever will suddenly be perfect.
If you want to balance at a certain florin level you need to see the problems there and not in some other level. Hope thats clear enough now.
Quote[/b] ]Yes, we are aware of your love for the cav unit and distaste for anything which might be able to balance this unit vs spears or swords. Unfortunately, most people believe in this imbalance, and have stopped playing or limited their playing because of it. This belief makes the imbalance a fact. Choose to do nothing about it, and for RTW there will be even less of an MP game then there currently is
Oh we are getting nasty now are we? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well I like cav but I also love the all foot army. And that is better in 5k than in 15k..and Im talking about a real all foot army...not that upgraded handgunner thingie http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif It really depends on terrain, plan, allies and what mood Im in. I find the 5k game a lot more forgiving when it comes to unit choice compared to 15k. No that doesnt mean everything goes in 5k and that doesnt mean we couldnt do with a few changes.
I can only speak for myself and I pretty much left MTW because I got tired of the cav/sword nonsense in 15k. Only thing that keeps it alive for me is the 5k and some historical battles that I hope will be increase my fun a bit.
And we might see the same problems in RTW if CA doesnt change the way upgrading works or the community changes its attitude...and right now CA is my only hope.
In STW you had very few units, only one or two of each type. In MTW we have a lot more and RTW will be the same. You cant give all these units some special unique ability, so the main reason why you should buy the cheap ones is simply becuase you dont have money to buy only the best units. And that means playing at low florins/denari.
In STW you played with upgrades while in MTW you play with unit choice. From playing Yuuki in 5k MTW I already know he uses 4 Orderfoot as standard. If it was STW it would have been 4 Yari Samurai v5..or something like that. In MTW 5k I will have to look at other units to "surprise" him. In STW I would be looking at how to change some upgrades (and of course change unit setup too..just not many units to pick from)
In another thread you said this
"By "Gamey" I mean the ability to upgrade units that normally would be slaughtered by another type of unit to where they could fight evenly with them"
Instead of upgrading why cant it be the ability to buy different units? Yes you might not be able to get everything but that really depends on unit choice. I have no problems with loads of units to pick from.
If you want some spears that kick ass couldnt you just buy say swiss pikes instead of buying 2 more upgrades for your yari samurai? Buy Lancers instead of upgrades for your heavy cavalry?
But its not an option really. Like it or not we will have 150 units in RTW and each faction about 20 unique units. The more units, the more special formations the more detail the better it gets IMO because we are already getting a very different game than STW. And the more units to pick from the better
Quote[/b] ]Which is nice if you want to be a big fish in a little pond, but not if you would rather be a little fish in a big pond.
Well it seems like Elmo doesnt want to swim in same pond as CBR http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
CBR
ElmarkOFear
09-07-2003, 20:23
..
Well here are some facts:
v0 feudal knights (425) loose to v0 spearmen (150).
v0 feudal knights (425) loose to v0 feudal sergeants (200).
v0 feudal sergeants (200) loose to v0 chiv knights (675).
v0 chiv knights (675) loose to v0 chiv sergeants (300).
v0 chiv sergeants (300) loose to v0 lancers (850).
v0 lancers (850) loose to v0 order foot (400).
The spears do beat the cav head on until the cav gets to 3x the cost of the spear. An exception seems to be on the low end where even a basic 150 florin spearmen can beat a 425 florin feudal knight. I suppose the MP game would work better if it required cav at 4x the cost to beat the spear. Even then I would expect a spear that got charged in the side or back to loose to the cav. The spear should have to be facing the cav to have a chance. Maybe the problem in actual battles is the difficulty of keeping the spears facing the cav threat. The cav can keep moving around to new angles of attack, and the spears have to keep responding to those moves.
Elmark,
How did you manage to maneuver into a loosing situation with a 725 florin swiss pike (19 att/def combat points) vs a 578 florin alan cav (8 att/def combat points)? That matchup is so much in favor of the pikes I'd be surprised if the pikes loose more than 2 men in defeating the alan. I think they must have actually been peasants that you thought were swiss pikes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I wouldn't put much stock in the winning/loosing text message. That mesage seems to bear little relationship to which unit is suffering the most casualties. The thing is it will take a long time for the pike to kill the cav unit.
BTW, your idea of using teh general's vices and virtues in the MP game to adjust combat and morale is very interesting because you could get different combinations of combat ability and morale which is how SP works. I was thinking of something much simpler where combat and morale tracked each other as they do now with valor upgrades, and even eliminating the combat adjustment as unnecessary. I think I'd leave in the individual weapon and armor upgrades to provide some unit diversity since they don't provide such large changes in unit ability that the basic rps between units is overwhelmed.
Skomatth
09-08-2003, 04:11
What kinda rows were they in? Hold formation? double click or click behind?
Everything was in their default number of rows with the spears in hold formation, and direct frontal attack. Cav or any unit set in wide formation and wrapping around is a problem for spears, and I think you have to use several spear units in combination to prevent it. A single spear unit is pretty vulnerable to flank attack or wrap around from high mobility cav. The chiv knight can easily defeat the order foot with a well executed wrap around without swiping.
ElmarkOFear
09-08-2003, 19:28
..
ElmarkOFear
09-08-2003, 19:34
..
Fatigue does affect combat ability,
-2 atk when quite tired
-3 atk, -1 def very tired
-4 atk, -2 def exhausted
-6 atk, -3 def totally exhausted
Also,
-2 morale when very tired (The Strategy Guide says -3)
-6 morale when exhausted
-8 morale when totally exhausted
F2 is the key to take .tga screen shots from within the game. They are saved in the tga folder as I recall.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
09-08-2003, 23:24
Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ Sep. 07 2003,15:23)]The other night I played a 5k game in late era. Seems the enemy army had some val 2 alan cav and charged my pavs, I hit them with my swiss pikemen val0, arm1 and the pikemen were losing the battle until I sent in MY alan cav unit to flank. So 5k pikes are not the cav stopper some think they are, given their expense.
Hum.... What are you trying to say Elmo?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Are you surprised by your own men being defeated and routing now?
Give a credit to those swiss, they engage a fight with the ennemy and have not ran on sight, despite their General's reputation.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Louis,
ElmarkOFear
09-09-2003, 00:55
..
i have been following this converstaion carefully and it is a shame that you guys seem to play a bit later than me these days. i have seen here many points on which everybody has agreed upon, and, i might add, that they are points that we have been discussing for a long time.
At these low florins you all seem to beleive that the game is fundamentally better than at 15k without taking morale into consideration .. a +6 morale option would of worked very well but we did not get it with VI. Also i notice you say missile battles become a little more exciting due to your budget not accomodating armour upgrades .. moving pavs to late and having plain arbs and xbows still in high would of been a good move for VI but we did not get it.
i see this discusion as very good but unfortunately am unable to give any input due to being a 5k virgin http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif but what i do see here is you can identify problems quite well but does anyone have any ideas how we can implement them? (because listing them in the VI balancing thread did not seem to help).
I also notice that shigenmitch suggested the morale would be better at around 10k but how would this effect the gameplay compared to 15k? any ideas?
sorry if im butting in guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Konnichiwa baz san,
'Easy' really. If there's interest in a type of game by at least 2 players, then it pays to create an extra stat. The game can support extra stats or a manager can be used to swap the default one. Both methods have cons and pros.
It would of course be much better if general parameters like fatigue, gamespeed and morale could be adjusted by a slider or advanced settings menu in the build host screen.
Adjusting the morale with X points for all units (or even depending on the type of unit) can be done in less than 1 minute in the CA Excel worksheet. A manual refinement can be done afterwards (for example byz inf?).
I think the +2 morale of v2.0 did help the gameplay at 5k compared to v1.1, but there are still lots of issues at 5k. The renewed interest by some of us in 5k is due to that improvement and the +2 morale bringing out a strong sword/cav bias in the 15k game. Maybe that's an inprovement over the cav bias in v1.1 at 15k. The player community was playing v1.1 predominatly at 15k. On average that's +4 morale over a 5k game. It's a mystery why most players are playing v2.0 at 15k, but wouldn't play v1.1 at 25k which is the next +2 morale step up.
There is a learning curve to 5k since you have to be more aware of the morale level of the units you purchase. All the spears are at the low end of the morale scale, and you have to be fairly careful with how you use them or else you can easily end up with even order foot at morale 2 routing at 97 men, and that's the best spear unit which sets you back 400 florins to purchase. There are other low morale units such as halbardiers which are probably very hard to use effectively at 5k, and I believe CBR is trying to use them to see what he can do with them. I tend to stick to higher morale units such as feudal knights (8) for cav, cmaa (4) for swords, fanatics (8), but spears (2) are on the low end of the morale scale. You really don't have any choice because they are too expensive to upgrade. You can purchase a feudal sergeant (2) at 200 and upgrade it to v1 bringing it up to morale 4 and costing 340 florins, but I find it inferior to the v0 order foot in battle.
No time to go on right now, but one other point is that, although archers are a bit more effective in 5k, they are relatively a lot more expensive than in 15k games since you cannot take advantage of the discounted upgrades. Some factions that depend on combo ranged/sword units may be suffering at 5k.
Also, we tried 6k 4v4 games and CBR took his the 12 cav army which was very effective which it isn't at 5k. KenchInda and AMP were in one of those test games and they agreed on the point that the cav was already starting to dominate at 6k at least in these team games. I don't know about 1v1 games. You could handle this with rules about how many cav you can take, but I know some of the people I play with don't want to get into trying to enforce rules. Ultimately, what I'll probably do is play CBR's MPWars mod as much as I can once he finishes it.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
09-09-2003, 15:27
There are some very interesting trade off taking place at 5k. Some units which are seldom used at 15k get a real chance at 5k.
Yep spears are the low end of the morale scale, which is why I think making spears immune to specific cav morale impact would be helpfull (see other thread not to far away).
But you can also find some nice spears, like Almughavars, Muwahid or Dismounted Nobles in viking era with somehow good morale. Upgraded nubian might also do the trick. Swiss Pike comes to mind in late.
Halberd/ polearm can do a good job too... CFK are good, and so are JHI. Swiss halb are Ok too. Billmen and Halberds are likely to be not good enough.
One of the good news is that highly elite units really feel elite now When I pay substantial money to get a couple of JHI, they really shine now. At 15k, they run for cover not to be overkilled by v4 MS.... Feudal Foot Knights do have a role now. They do feel different than a 40 size CMAA. In some sense, units are less vanilla.
Missile wars feel better; but only marginally so... True, it's very positive that pav does not get those annoying armor upgrade anymore. But outcome of missile war feel somehow secondary to melee and how fast some games can be played.
The rock paper scissor is much more satisfying at 5k. When Fl goes up, one is able to buy more heavy cav, and that's an issue. At 5k, 4 Chivalric Knight is half your budget. Most settle for the less potent Feudal Knight. At 10k, you can afford those CK... And then some other crusader knights. I got to try an anticav army at 10k and sees how it goes.
So I think, at 10k, gameplay is likely to be heavily centered on heavy cav.
I got mixed feeling with +6 morale over 5k. Would CMAA be able to resist cav charge then? Would spears become useless again? To be tested http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Louis,
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
09-09-2003, 15:31
Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ Sep. 08 2003,19:55)]LOL Sim I forgot about my "Bad Attacker", "Bad Defender", "Cowardice", and "Public Drunk" vices Now I understand their loss hehe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Darn, how could I have missed that? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hum... Elmo... Was that one of your late small unit size game?
I like the look of small unit sized, but I got to say that it is likely to make spears less effective with possible lower rank support bonus.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I bet you play small size cause you are a veiled pony lover and wants to give your horsies an additional chance by fudging unit size http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Louis,
so would anyone be interested in some modified stats? with perhaps plus 4/6 morale? would this make the 5k game any better?
i get the idea that cav starts to become dominant at 5k+ but at 10k is the situation better than at 15k? i am guessing you have to decide whether to pay for good cav or good inf, if you pick good cav then your inf will get steamrollered by it .. but do spears still do a job to prevent this?
at the moment i think without a morale increase the 5k games wont take off, i wonder if 10k games possible could.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
09-10-2003, 15:00
+4/+6 is certainly worth looking at
Regarding cav... I am not sure It's really dominant. One can build effective anti cav army. But it's definitly stronger than in 15k, in the sense that now sword get routed if not protected.
I kind of wonder if cav would not be more dominant at 10k. Heavy cav is very easy to buy at those level.
Well, that just means we got to play more 5k / 7k / 10k games and see with which setting we are happy with. It's very likely different people will feel better with different fl level, but we'll see.
Louis,
shingenmitch2
09-11-2003, 15:44
Elmo
hehe, this post is tad late as it responds to a post way back in here, but i gotta comment:
"What it comes down to, is that CBR believes there should be no upgrading possible and all the units available should, as closely as possible, accurately reflect their "real world" counterparts.
He is looking for reality and that will make a very boring game indeed. Most battles, from ancient times to today, were won by having the most men, machines, or better technology and not because of great battlefield tactics. "
Yes and no. I totally agree about battlefield technology and numbers being the greatest factors in war victory...
I must totally disagree with the idea that a game (and particularly this game) would be boring without having unit upgrades.
Case in point 1: chess -- not a single upgrade, yet one of the most dynamic and challenging games.
Case in point 2: Go -- every friggin stone is exactly the same, yet like chess, it is a strategy fest.
Total War is similar to chess. The main thing about chess is that every unit has its own particular strengths and weakness. It is exactly the clarity of a Rook moving one way and the Bishop clearly another is what creates the strategy in chess. If I could upgrade --without my opponent knowing-- my Bishop to be a Knight so that it could "jump" , this wouldn't add strategy or challenge to the game. Instead it destroys strategy by ruining the clarity of match-ups, you never know what to expect because anything could happen -- so why bother think out my move? If I can't upgrade a peasant to kill a Chiv Knight, it will never hurt M:TW. In fact, preventing that can only make the game better.
The other important point to chess is that not every unit can be a Queen, and this is also important to total war... limiting the number of "uber" units. It is not the fact that the Lancer exists that is a problem... only if every unit or a majority of units were Lancers is there a problem. Balance comes from units doing what they're supposed to and having propper proportions to their numbers.
The current system for picking & upgrading units in Total War does neither.
--------------------------------------------
If upgrades are necessary, then here are 3 methods that would be better (these probably apply more to the single play than the multi. I've previously laid out how I think the Multi player unit picking needs to happen):
Method 1. A unit can gain 3 ranks on itself (ie. poor peasant, decent pesant, and good peasant -- the top peasant being no better than 1.5x to 2x better than the lowest.) In real combat , experience will rarely make a unit better than twice as good as an exactly similar unit (in training, tactics and equipment).
The real disparities between units -- as Elms points out -- come from differing equipment and tactics driven by that equipment (i.e. a tank beats infantry/ a hoplite beats naked bushman) -- the other way disparities arise is through concentration of numbers and suprise -- but these are only tangentially related to combat experience.
In old shoggy, Valor could make a unit upto 24x better than its lowest version -- unbelieveably stupid The designers thought that since the cost of unit went up proportionally that this was okay -- HAHAHAHA....Even now in M:TW through Valor, arms and armor, the increase I can get is still in the neighborhood of 6x --- way too much. Simply doubling a unit's strength is a HUGE power increase.
Method 2: Once a unit is eligible to upgrade, it "changes" into the next class of unit... ie. peasant becomes urban militia which becomes Mil. Sgt., etc... thus the unit upgrades, but through training and reequipping.
Method 3: mix methods 1 &2 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Hm time for some spamming. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Hello Baz..you are always welcome here http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
About the 10k thing:
Well to make story short...cav cav cav heh. Its just no problem buying loads of cav and the foot doesnt have the morale for it. And spears will already be running into the problem of the combination of cav/sword. But I do think 10k is better than 8k..not sure though.
About morale for 5k:
The more I play 5k the more I get used to it and the more I love it...simple as that. If we really should get a morale increase then I would say it had to be +2 only. +6 is like valour 4 in 1.1 and is just way too much.
We did play several valour 3 games in 1.1 and they were nice but I still felt and I think Yuuki too that some units were just fighting too long. Valour 3 in 1.1 is +4 morale for VI.
But in lots of battles I think the current morale in 5k is working great. To quote an old and wise Jedi "You must unlearn what you have learned." MTW is not STW and 15k MTW is not 5k MTW.
I lost all battles the first day I played MTW..maybe even first week lol but that didnt stop me from playing the game nor think about the need to buy more valour. I just learned to play the game. And I really think 5k is a very good game but it does take time to get used to.
If you want super morale units then buy feudal/chivalric footknights..they are actually quite nice in 5k. Spears might have low morale but with flanks protected they actually do hold nicely..they dont really hold longer in 15k because they get killed quicker against the higher valour shockfoot.
Yes you need to support units better so they dont run but people always talk so much skill so here is the chance to use it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
And about cav being overpowered in 5k. Well what is there to say..I have really tried to come up with some abusive cav heavy/all cav armies and they just dont feel that strong..except if enemy takes loads of archers/swords with no spears.
But until we start seeing tournaments using 5k or a change in the current tournaments/ladders then 5k (with or without morale increase) will never take off. I have encountered increasing interest in 5k in the foyer and I think it will improve even more.
A mod with perfect balance and gameplay wont do much good I think. There are lots of opinions about how to balance the game and lots of people just dont want to try anything different..they just want to keep on playing what they are used too. And how to convince people to download it a mod...because its balanced?..not enough to sell a mod to the masses heh.
CBR
ElmarkOFear
09-11-2003, 22:36
..
GAH
"He who claims it sucks has clearly been blown away."
-- Vanya
GAH
ElmarkOFear
09-12-2003, 22:02
..
Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ Sep. 12 2003,16:02)]Vanya Will you be among us come RTW's release? The game isn't the same without some of our more colorful veteran players from STW. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
GAH
Vanya plans to be there. Definitely.
Vanya's war dog (er, pet) enjoys watching the slaughter from the comfort and safety of Vanya's lap. Vanya is certain the beast will find RTW equally enjoyable, if not more.
Of course, things get kinda dicey when the dog wants to eat the grapefruit Vanya sports as a head... Vanya has to always be careful to avoid using processed meat products like SPAM as a surrogate head when the dog is around. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Vanya ponders... what is the status of Elmo's Nike contract? Still a solid revenue-earner for Elmo? Has Elmo taken other contracts, like perhaps Adidas, on the side?
GAH
ElmarkOFear
09-13-2003, 01:20
..
ElmarkOFear
09-13-2003, 16:52
..
RTKLamorak
09-13-2003, 17:09
nice thread guys always fun to follow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif sadly, i then quickly get hallucinations of the devs sitting on piles of money jabbing us with hot forks from there high horses, oh wait thats a flashback not hallucination http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif . what a truely marvolous game it coulda been http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif anyways im sorry to butt in with my negative attitude, just wanted to say hi really http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
ElmarkOFear
09-14-2003, 07:25
..
To get the discussion back on track I will join in here.
I have only recently come back on the MP arena (after a large driver problem for my graphic card). And when I noticed there wa this 5k experiment going on, I jumped at it. I have always wanted to play at lower florins, but few have had the interest.
The battles I have fought have all been great so far, despite the fact I had only one low valour battle under my belt (a battle for the MP campaign with Shadeswolf).
Now a few really good units can become the main part of the army, like my 2 Swiss Pikemen in a recent victory. Before everybody was strong enough and had money enough to have plenty of everything.
Ranged, the fight also seems more fun since I noticed in another fight that supporting archers (Szekely in this case) actually helped by lowering the enemy morale when firing in a melee.
Also in the previous fight I almost lost an entire unit of pavs to archery very fast due to no armour upgrades.
All in all the game seems more pleasant to play, and more historical. When both are combined I dare to say we all should rejoice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Orda Khan
09-15-2003, 18:23
I can only mirror what Kraxis says, there is very nice historical feel to 5k games.
.....Orda
todaswarriors
09-15-2003, 22:45
Well i am started to get my head around these 5k games.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
I can even use some different formations to a greater effect now..
In 15k i only ever see single line formations at the very most(if any at all)
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif hehe..loose works fine in 5k..we will try some wedge later on lol.
+ i see different armies then the same old crap thats in 15k..v4 militars started getting on my nervers...thats all i ever saw.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
I remember in stw that formations played a part in the battle ahead...but in 15k with v4 militar who needs formation eh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
Orda Khan
10-09-2003, 18:21
Unfortunately, nobody seems interested CBR http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif so I think it's time to pull the plug on VI. If the patch changes things ( though I doubt it will ) if we get a patch, then I may drop by, otherwise I will only be back for Barocca's STW Mod.
Pity
......Orda
Quote[/b] (todaswarriors @ Sep. 16 2003,00:45)]I remember in stw that formations played a part in the battle ahead...but in 15k with v4 militar who needs formation eh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
actually even in MI, formation isnt really important (if our understanding of formation is the same).. the best formation has always been AMP's single line of kensai, cav, viking/highlandclanman ... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-10-2003, 17:09
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Sep. 14 2003,18:46)]To get the discussion back on track I will join in here.
I have only recently come back on the MP arena (after a large driver problem for my graphic card). And when I noticed there wa this 5k experiment going on, I jumped at it. I have always wanted to play at lower florins, but few have had the interest.
The battles I have fought have all been great so far, despite the fact I had only one low valour battle under my belt (a battle for the MP campaign with Shadeswolf).
Now a few really good units can become the main part of the army, like my 2 Swiss Pikemen in a recent victory. Before everybody was strong enough and had money enough to have plenty of everything.
Ranged, the fight also seems more fun since I noticed in another fight that supporting archers (Szekely in this case) actually helped by lowering the enemy morale when firing in a melee.
Also in the previous fight I almost lost an entire unit of pavs to archery very fast due to no armour upgrades.
All in all the game seems more pleasant to play, and more historical. When both are combined I dare to say we all should rejoice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
I support that... I find the 5k battle more enjoyable and fun. Sure, pretty often I make mistakes and get routed fast, but well that's life. But at least, spears seem to be back in the game, and Elite units feel good.
Now there are a couple of thing which are not working at 5k.
The relative cost of some units is different, and maybe I've played 15k too long, but missile seems to be not effective enough for their cost; a 200 fl xbow is 'a saving' in 15k, at 5k you think twice about it. In late, I feel I can't really afford those 300fl pav arb. The relative cost weight of missile in the whole army get bigger, and possibly too big for their effectiveness.
Same comment for light HA, such as Turcopole/horse, etc... 300 fl is a lot of money for those units...
Too bad, because without armor bonus, missile fight is more dynamic and fun.
It's not all perfect, still I like it better than 15k.
Louis,
Yes, HA has suffered a lot. Not only are they very few, but they suffer from the high cost of archery too.
If ranged units in general lost about 75 florins a piece it would get interesting. But that would spell doom for the players at 15k as the Muslim hybrids would suddenly become woefully overpowered.
But you know, as with STW some rules can be made. Such as a forced ranged contingent of at least three ranged units (javelins or naphtas doen't count)??? This would force a lot of ranged duels... which in turn would give the player that controls his troops better an advantage over the player that gets the better troops. Something I have always wanted (not that it should matter always).
It looks like the majority of v2.01 players have already chosen 15k as the standard. Virtually every v2.01 game I saw hosted since Friday was 15k/player.
Dionysus9
10-20-2003, 23:36
I host 10k 2.01 games and I get a lot of complaints. I think its mostly that people have their 15k armies pre-chosen and they are used to them.
I for one am open to any sort of change.
i second Bachus.. wish to play more 8k to 12k games but the hours I play usually see games hosted @ 15k to 20k..
i encourage all to give 8k to 12k a try.. anyway its starting to get boring playing @ 15k for so long.. if RTW were to be released Q4 2004.. oh man.. I can't imagine playing exactly the same armies, same feel, for another 1 year.
even if such florin levels may introduced some other 'unbalance' issues that are yet to be identified, which people will exploit.. it sure will be more fun and refreshing imo..
1 more year for next tw.. is.. a ..long... wait... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
we need to constantly refresh our games to keep the MP interest imo.. or else some (or more) of us will get bored and leave.
Skomatth
10-21-2003, 21:28
As florins go lower cav gains strength against swords. This increases the need for spears to protect your swords. Thats how the rps system should work.
As florins go up swords get stronger which reduces the need for spears, as the player doesnt need a buffer vs cav charges. This isn't how the rps should work.
10k is dangerously close to rps not working.
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